The ball doesn't matter! (Formerly, the Ultimate Ball Test)

[Redhill]

I think the OP's project is interesting and thanks for the effort to document all the data.

I did a much more limited test similar to the OP's a couple of summers ago.

My sweetheart wife bought me some "yellow" golf balls for my birthday, however I was then playing the ZStarXV in yellow and she found a couple of dozen Slazenger Max Distance yellow balls that were on SALE, bless her heart. I couldn't very well return them and she would ask me after a round how the birthday balls were working out.

I decided to put a dozen of the Slazengers in my bag and use them for scrambles tournaments, long drive holes, and goof off shots over the lake, hill, whatever.

One day I went out to my course and it was almost completely empty and my normal golf buddies were traveling out of town so I played a round with the birthday balls just to see what would happen. After doing that once I did it twice more in the summer.

My results were similar to the OP results. After a couple of holes I would adjust any thing in my swing or game to accomodate the ball I was playing and the results were that I could see no clear winner, scorewise, between the XV and the birthday balls. That being said there were differences in the durability of the balls and the way they would feel off the club. But the scores did not show any advantage of either ball for my 4 handicap play.

[propman]

I'm a higher hccper than most posters on this forum (15 hccper). What ball I use has no bearing on what my score will be. I have shot a few 81s to 83s and (gulp) a few high 90s this year using balls such as the pinnacle golds and wilson fg tours. My score is mostly dependent on how well I am hitting my clubs (including putting) and secondarily the difficulty of the course.

But overall, my scoring is like a box of chocolates I can score well on a difficult course and badly on an easy course.

The only difference I see in balls is with the driver - the pinnacles are longer.

[cristphoto]

To me the ball does matter. I typically play either a prov1x or a Taylor Made TPX. When I'm feeling off I will sometimes switch to an NXT Tour. My scores are typically about the same (my handicap doesn't change), but when I play the nxt tour I have to adjust my short game shots a bit. Instead of relying on spin to stop short pitches for example, I will play more flop shots. Every so often when playing the nxt tour I get in a situation where I miss a spin of the urethane balls. I would say the balls "feel" matters and different characteristics are noticeable.

[cardia10]

The fairway finding stat is not surprising. All of us that just know we need Pro V's seem to lose a lot of them in the rough with the additional side spin high end balls give. A pro might can use that to their advantage, but much more than a 5 handicap will see no gain. I know there are exceptions, but you don't count if you hit 1 draw in your last 10 shots. That isn't controlling your ball, that is luck. I would love to see a blind test where logos are removed and all the balls are painted a similar hue. I'd bet the results would be similar to the forged vs cast argument. It doesn't make a difference for 99% of us.

[BillyZ2]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1436409880' post='11914192']
I said I'd try this sometime this season and it's now in progress.

10 rounds with Srixon Z-Star balls (representing a high-line, tour level ball).

10 rounds with "found balls".

I'm saving any balls I find in the course of rounds and leaving them in my golf bag. On the days I'm playing the "off balls", it will be entirely random. I always have 2 balls ready for play and I'll play them randomly. Whichever one comes out of my pocket on the Tee, will be the ball in play for that hole.
[/quote]Just don't tell the golf purists in here if you use a different ball for putting then you do for driving/fairway, otherwise you will get mega-flamed!

[BrianL99]

[quote name='BillyZ2' timestamp='1440461433' post='12201984']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1436409880' post='11914192']
I said I'd try this sometime this season and it's now in progress.

10 rounds with Srixon Z-Star balls (representing a high-line, tour level ball).

10 rounds with "found balls".

I'm saving any balls I find in the course of rounds and leaving them in my golf bag. On the days I'm playing the "off balls", it will be entirely random. I always have 2 balls ready for play and I'll play them randomly. Whichever one comes out of my pocket on the Tee, will be the ball in play for that hole.
[/quote]Just don't tell the golf purists in here if you use a different ball for putting then you do for driving/fairway, otherwise you will get mega-flamed!
[/quote]

Are you kidding me? I'm getting flamed and beat up, because all my statistics point to the ball being irrelevant in scoring for the average player ... which most anyone with common sense should have already known.

It really is ludicrous to hear the justifications players have, for playing expensive golf balls. "I need the ball to stop on pitches" ... yeah, sure ... their margin of error on a pitch is +/- 5 yards, but if the ball rolls and extra foot or two, it's going to hurt their score. The best one, is the guys who claim their full shots won't stop on the green. The statistics show that somewhere approaching 90% of all amateur approach shots are short of the hole ... those guys should be looking for more roll and less stoppage!

[irish26]

Damn! I had just convinced myself to jump from used buckets of balls to DT Solos too. Looks like its back to the 25 cent balls lol

[BillyZ2]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1440462451' post='12202096']
[quote name='BillyZ2' timestamp='1440461433' post='12201984']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1436409880' post='11914192']
I said I'd try this sometime this season and it's now in progress.

10 rounds with Srixon Z-Star balls (representing a high-line, tour level ball).

10 rounds with "found balls".

I'm saving any balls I find in the course of rounds and leaving them in my golf bag. On the days I'm playing the "off balls", it will be entirely random. I always have 2 balls ready for play and I'll play them randomly. Whichever one comes out of my pocket on the Tee, will be the ball in play for that hole.
[/quote]Just don't tell the golf purists in here if you use a different ball for putting then you do for driving/fairway, otherwise you will get mega-flamed!
[/quote]

Are you kidding me? I'm getting flamed and beat up, because all my statistics point to the ball being irrelevant in scoring for the average player ... which most anyone with common sense should have already known.

It really is ludicrous to hear the justifications players have, for playing expensive golf balls. "I need the ball to stop on pitches" ... yeah, sure ... their margin of error on a pitch is +/- 5 yards, but if the ball rolls and extra foot or two, it's going to hurt their score. The best one, is the guys who claim their full shots won't stop on the green. The statistics show that somewhere approaching 90% of all amateur approach shots are short of the hole ... those guys should be looking for more roll and less stoppage!
[/quote]The last two years I have played TF Gamers/Tours I got from Dick's at $7.99-$12.99/doz. I have been thinking about the Wilson Duo for next year, just for the sake of change, but will see which ball can be gotten for the least money. I do like to play the same ball throughout the year, it's like keeping the same routine before each shot.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='BillyZ2' timestamp='1440464767' post='12202396']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1440462451' post='12202096']
[quote name='BillyZ2' timestamp='1440461433' post='12201984']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1436409880' post='11914192']
I said I'd try this sometime this season and it's now in progress.

10 rounds with Srixon Z-Star balls (representing a high-line, tour level ball).

10 rounds with "found balls".

I'm saving any balls I find in the course of rounds and leaving them in my golf bag. On the days I'm playing the "off balls", it will be entirely random. I always have 2 balls ready for play and I'll play them randomly. Whichever one comes out of my pocket on the Tee, will be the ball in play for that hole.
[/quote]Just don't tell the golf purists in here if you use a different ball for putting then you do for driving/fairway, otherwise you will get mega-flamed!
[/quote]

Are you kidding me? I'm getting flamed and beat up, because all my statistics point to the ball being irrelevant in scoring for the average player ... which most anyone with common sense should have already known.

It really is ludicrous to hear the justifications players have, for playing expensive golf balls. "I need the ball to stop on pitches" ... yeah, sure ... their margin of error on a pitch is +/- 5 yards, but if the ball rolls and extra foot or two, it's going to hurt their score. The best one, is the guys who claim their full shots won't stop on the green. The statistics show that somewhere approaching 90% of all amateur approach shots are short of the hole ... those guys should be looking for more roll and less stoppage!
[/quote]The last two years I have played TF Gamers/Tours I got from Dick's at $7.99-$12.99/doz. I have been thinking about the Wilson Duo for next year, just for the sake of change, but will see which ball can be gotten for the least money. I do like to play the same ball throughout the year, it's like keeping the same routine before each shot.
[/quote]

I just bought 8 dozen Gamers from Dick's for $9.99/dozen

[BillyZ2]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1440465236' post='12202448']
[quote name='BillyZ2' timestamp='1440464767' post='12202396']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1440462451' post='12202096']
[quote name='BillyZ2' timestamp='1440461433' post='12201984']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1436409880' post='11914192']
I said I'd try this sometime this season and it's now in progress.

10 rounds with Srixon Z-Star balls (representing a high-line, tour level ball).

10 rounds with "found balls".

I'm saving any balls I find in the course of rounds and leaving them in my golf bag. On the days I'm playing the "off balls", it will be entirely random. I always have 2 balls ready for play and I'll play them randomly. Whichever one comes out of my pocket on the Tee, will be the ball in play for that hole.
[/quote]Just don't tell the golf purists in here if you use a different ball for putting then you do for driving/fairway, otherwise you will get mega-flamed!
[/quote]

Are you kidding me? I'm getting flamed and beat up, because all my statistics point to the ball being irrelevant in scoring for the average player ... which most anyone with common sense should have already known.

It really is ludicrous to hear the justifications players have, for playing expensive golf balls. "I need the ball to stop on pitches" ... yeah, sure ... their margin of error on a pitch is +/- 5 yards, but if the ball rolls and extra foot or two, it's going to hurt their score. The best one, is the guys who claim their full shots won't stop on the green. The statistics show that somewhere approaching 90% of all amateur approach shots are short of the hole ... those guys should be looking for more roll and less stoppage!
[/quote]The last two years I have played TF Gamers/Tours I got from Dick's at $7.99-$12.99/doz. I have been thinking about the Wilson Duo for next year, just for the sake of change, but will see which ball can be gotten for the least money. I do like to play the same ball throughout the year, it's like keeping the same routine before each shot.
[/quote]

I just bought 8 dozen Gamers from Dick's for $9.99/dozen
[/quote]Smart man!

[Neurotica]

Been rotating between RBZ Distance that I won in a scramble and Lethals, and my scores are the same. Full shots the same. Chipping the RBZ rolls out a bit more. Putting the RBZ is actually nicer. Dead even for me. Very much JMHO.

[vangator1]

The ball only matters if you want to score. There's a reason the pros don't play sirloin balls. My brother-in-law calls them sirloin. I don't have the heart )or balls) to correct him.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='vangator1' timestamp='1440556119' post='12209504']
The ball only matters if you want to score. There's a reason the pros don't play sirloin balls. My brother-in-law calls them sirloin. I don't have the heart )or balls) to correct him.
[/quote]

The "Pros" are playing a different game than you and I.

[braveheart]

Very interesting topic. Great work with the stats and graphs. I find prov1x and play them but buy Pinnacle gold distance. I see the difference mostly off on approach shots and off the putter. Accounting for the difference, makes me play with them as well as the premium ball.

[propman]

Yesterday, got out to play 18 as a single. Course got backed up in the back nine, so I joined up with a twosome behind me. We started discussing golf balls and they brought up how they find prov1s on the golf course. I mentioned that I only play prov1s that I find on the course (as I am too cheap to pay $40 something for a dozen balls) and I find very little difference in golf balls including Pinnacles. One of the guys says " there is nothing like a well struck prov1" and that he does buy them when they are on sale. At that point, I just said nothing.

As a reference, I am lowly 15 hcper and based on what I saw these guys were both 25 hcpers.

Power of marketing strikes even strikes high hcpers and their wallets.

[Hondabuff]

The difference between the ball flight of a 2015 Prov1x just the trajectory and how it apexes late and will hold a green from 180 yards is night and day compared to a cheap ball. I would agree with the statement when I use another ball that my game feels off. I shoot similar scores but don't like the flight, feel and the sound. Now that the Prov1x is durable like no other Titleist ball before I see no other reason to look anywhere else. I hit balls from my back driveway into the woods behind the house and distinctly notice the ball flights between balls off of my AP2's. The ball velocity and feel of a pure struck X ball off of my AP2's is the single most rewarding thing for me in golf. The ball flight is tighter and my groupings are better. The people who say the balls don't mater are the same people who buy are car because they need a car. The enthusiasts buy a car because of the subtle differences that make it better handling, breaking and straight out performance.

[Mr. Herbert]

[quote name='Hondabuff' timestamp='1440602633' post='12211828']
The difference between the ball flight of a 2015 Prov1x just the trajectory and how it apexes late and will hold a green from 180 yards is night and day compared to a cheap ball. I would agree with the statement when I use another ball that my game feels off. I shoot similar scores but don't like the flight, feel and the sound. Now that the Prov1x is durable like no other Titleist ball before I see no other reason to look anywhere else. I hit balls from my back driveway into the woods behind the house and distinctly notice the ball flights between balls off of my AP2's. The ball velocity and feel of a pure struck X ball off of my AP2's is the single most rewarding thing for me in golf. The ball flight is tighter and my groupings are better. The people who say the balls don't mater are the same people who buy are car because they need a car. The enthusiasts buy a car because of the subtle differences that make it better handling, breaking and straight out performance.
[/quote]

No one is saying there aren't subtle differences, or that all trajectories are the same. The question asked is about if there is any affect on score.

[gopherguts]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1438766441' post='12081648']
My little test, while surely not a candidate for publication in next month's Scientific Journal, provides some modicum of evidence that dependence on a specific ball [size=5][b]may not[/b][/size] reward the player with lower scores.
[/quote]

Or it may,,,,,,,,

This thread almost sounds like a CB vs blade thread,,,,,,,,

And at your level I must say I'm a bit surprised that you don't seem to find any difference on full shots that hit the green,,,,,,,,, and chipping and putting. I surely do.

[matchavez]

This is the same as the "turf interaction" stuff... if it hurts you, it'll hurt your *next* shot.

I was strongly convinced... I played a sleeve of E5s. Nice feel, but bad results for my game. It went too high, and that made my drives shorter and my iron numbers less predictable. What I think needs to be pointed out isn't that "good" balls are better, and "cheap" balls are just as good. It's not about that at all.

Golf balls are mystic creatures because they can be unpredictable for some swings, model to model, and others can have very little difference at all. Those who have little difference will happily eat up "cheap" balls because they have PREDICTABLE performance. Ball snobs like me (apparently) want that predictability, but our game would give us less predictable results switching around. For those of us like that, we are better off sticking with one model - for better or worse, as long as it gives the same result, we can adjust.

[b]Golf is a game of seeking predictable outcomes.[/b] The sport comes down to that; it's a target sport, and the more predictable and reproducible your shot can get. Some of us have to remove the variable of different ball models, and some of us are lucky enough to not need that.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='Hondabuff' timestamp='1440602633' post='12211828']
The people who say the balls don't mater are the same people who buy are car because they need a car. The enthusiasts buy a car because of the subtle differences that make it better handling, breaking and straight out performance.
[/quote]

You probably meant more frequent "breaking"?

I own 3. A Mercedes, an Infiniti and Jaguar. Just practical cars, because I need something to get me around. Like my golf balls.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='Mr. Herbert' timestamp='1440605037' post='12212100']

[b]No one is saying there aren't subtle differences, or that all trajectories are the same. The question asked is about if there is any affect on score.[/b]

[/quote]

Isn't that why we play golf? Isn't that what counts, no pun intended.

Some times I wonder if people even read previous post or just can't wait to type something even if it's not relevant.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1440606566' post='12212274']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1438766441' post='12081648']
My little test, while surely not a candidate for publication in next month's Scientific Journal, provides some modicum of evidence that dependence on a specific ball [size=5][b]may not[/b][/size] reward the player with lower scores.
[/quote]

Or it may,,,,,,,,

This thread almost sounds like a CB vs blade thread,,,,,,,,

And at your level I must say I'm a bit surprised that you don't seem to find any difference on full shots that hit the green,,,,,,,,, and chipping and putting. I surely do.
[/quote]

All the smiley faces and graphics, won't change the fact that you either didn't read the previous posts or didn't understand them.

I certainly never suggested there wasn't any difference in feel, trajectory, spin, or any other characteristics of golf balls ... I simply said that your scores will likely be the same, regardless of the ball you choose to use.

We're up to 5 pages of posts and not a single person has produced a whit of evidence that my conclusion is wrong.

& it is a bit like the "blade vs CB", in that almost no one bothers to test their hypothesis, they just throw out unsubstantiated opinion.

[BillyZ2]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1440558930' post='12209746']
[quote name='vangator1' timestamp='1440556119' post='12209504']
The ball only matters if you want to score. There's a reason the pros don't play sirloin balls. My brother-in-law calls them sirloin. I don't have the heart )or balls) to correct him.
[/quote]

The "Pros" are playing a different game than you and I.
[/quote]Absolute truth. Most higher hc'rs don't have the skillset to take advantage of what the high end balls offer, in fact, they might even be slightly more detrimental to their game. I think the last thing a high hc golfer wants is more spin on the ball, which the higher end balls probably offer. My motto, being a higer capper (15) is "straight is always good" !

[gopherguts]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1440626228' post='12214282']
[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1440606566' post='12212274']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1438766441' post='12081648']
My little test, while surely not a candidate for publication in next month's Scientific Journal, provides some modicum of evidence that dependence on a specific ball [size=5][b]may not[/b][/size] reward the player with lower scores.
[/quote]

Or it may,,,,,,,,

This thread almost sounds like a CB vs blade thread,,,,,,,,

And at your level I must say I'm a bit surprised that you don't seem to find any difference on full shots that hit the green,,,,,,,,, and chipping and putting. I surely do.
[/quote]

All the smiley faces and graphics, won't change the fact that you either didn't read the previous posts or didn't understand them.

I certainly never suggested there wasn't any difference in feel, trajectory, spin, or any other characteristics of golf balls ... I simply said that your scores will likely be the same, regardless of the ball you choose to use.

We're up to 5 pages of posts and not a single person has produced a whit of evidence that my conclusion is wrong.

& it is a bit like the "blade vs CB", in that almost no one bothers to test their hypothesis, they just throw out unsubstantiated opinion.
[/quote]

I'll admit to not reading ALL the prior posts.

But you said "may not" and I simply said "may". And you get all huffy about it.

And while I may have phrased my observation poorly, you have come to the conclusion that the ball doesn't make a difference, no ? So you're scoring the same with balls that release and balls that don't. Balls that feel like a rock and others that feel like mush. OK, got it. YOU don't see a difference.

As for a "whit of evidence" you're probably not going to get any as even your conclusions are from too small a sample size to make a positive conclusion. Not to mention the differences under which you played. Weather, swing differences that particular day, etc, etc, etc,,,,,,,,

And as for "testing a hypothesis", I once attempted to quantify the number of shots I would likely have lost had I been playing a blade vs. the (more forgiving) GI club I DID play. Did it twice, tried to be totally objective and even erred on the side of the GI NOT saving me a shot when I thought it probably did, and all I got was the same old same old - "You can't possibly know that", "Weather's different", "Your swing is different", "No 2 shots are alike", ad infinitum,,,,,,,,, Same reasons your "test" isn't very conclusive,,,,,,,,,,

Frankly, I can't see my scores being the same if I used a ball [u]completely different[/u] from my gamer's characteristics, especially in the short game, but also any time I'm hitting a full shot into the green. I MAY score similarly with a ball with [u]similar characteristics[/u] but completely different ? Don't think so.

So while your attempt is admirable, just like my attempt, nobody's going to change their opinion.

I left off the emoticons - better now ?


[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1440365058' post='12195022']
[u][b]Over 50 tracked rounds on various golf courses, my scores were consistent with my handicap and usual scores, despite playing random balls.[/b][/u]
[/quote]

Based on your not so subtle rebuke I did read some more of the thread.

Now THERE you have it.

Thanks !!!

[matchavez]

So I'll be the jerk and play the Logic Police

Playing 50 rounds with random balls supports a hypothesis, and nothing more. If you want to submit your play as a data point, you now need to play 50 rounds with the same ball.

A self-supporting conclusion is something we have way too much of in the Internet era. If you can't even be bothered to test the control, please stop waving around your "proof".

Besides, your hypothesis is self correcting; how could you even know if you have outliers?

If you want a challenge, take your best tee-to-green day, use the ball you used that day (if you even know), and play that for 20 round exclusively. Come back with a linear array of your score against your starting index, and then you might call it a test.

[playa]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1440625884' post='12214254']
[quote name='Mr. Herbert' timestamp='1440605037' post='12212100']

[b]No one is saying there aren't subtle differences, or that all trajectories are the same. The question asked is about if there is any affect on score.[/b]

[/quote]

Isn't that why we play golf? Isn't that what counts, no pun intended.

Some times I wonder if people even read previous post or just can't wait to type something even if it's not relevant.
[/quote]
I agree generally but exlusively. Yesterday I found a real chepy on the course, it had a spalding logo and nothing else. Just for fun I hit it and caught it flush with driver, but I can tell you it felt and sounded horrible, despite the flight and distance. I wouldn't care what score I could shoot with that ball, I would not enjoy playing that ball. I could happily play most cheap balls if they gave me the same scores, but not every ball out there.

[Michael C.]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1440625761' post='12214242']
[quote name='Hondabuff' timestamp='1440602633' post='12211828']
The people who say the balls don't mater are the same people who buy are car because they need a car. The enthusiasts buy a car because of the subtle differences that make it better handling, breaking and straight out performance.
[/quote]

I own 3. A Mercedes, an Infiniti and Jaguar. Just practical cars, because I need something to get me around. Like my golf balls.
[/quote]

Your humor is not lost on me, my man!! LOL! Well played.

[Hondabuff]

I'm picturing you driving your 3 Giant Pyrenees to Starbucks in the Mercedes because the wife took the Jaguar to haul some mulch for the flower beds. Not cool! but I'm just jealous!

[nitram]

Thanks for the write-up Brian.

Not many would have the resolve to face the music.

[HackerD]

[quote name='matchavez' timestamp='1440639087' post='12215432']
So I'll be the jerk and play the Logic Police

Playing 50 rounds with random balls supports a hypothesis, and nothing more. If you want to submit your play as a data point, you now need to play 50 rounds with the same ball.

A self-supporting conclusion is something we have way too much of in the Internet era. If you can't even be bothered to test the control, please stop waving around your "proof".

Besides, your hypothesis is self correcting; how could you even know if you have outliers?

If you want a challenge, take your best tee-to-green day, use the ball you used that day (if you even know), and play that for 20 round exclusively. Come back with a linear array of your score against your starting index, and then you might call it a test.
[/quote]

Look at the data he posted. He has a bunch of rounds with the same ball, in addition to the rounds with random balls. The experiment was comparative.