Confessions 12 --- Exploding Heads

[Conrad1953]

Yesterday I was examining the new Titleist K grind 60* wedges. I looked at the bottom of the 08* and 12* bounce versions. When I set both shafts verticle and set the leading edges to the same height, the 08* bounce bottom was nearly level flat (<-there was a little curvature) and the 12* bounce bottom was about 1-2 mm lower than the leading edge about 1 cm back from it. (FYI this was measurement 1) per my 'quiz'.) I didn't see any big difference in the leading edge roundedness. That 1-2 mm lower bottom will just hit the ground first compared to the flatter bottom 08* bounce wedge.

 

Don't forget that this method of "using the bounce" from tight lies

involves intentionally hitting the ground before the ball. The notion

is that the club will indent the ground a little bit and slide under or

into the bottom of the ball.

 

The reasoning behind this is that it grants a little larger margin for

error compared to trying to fit the leading edge in there cleanly in

that tiny spot.

 

As far as what degree of bounce is best I guess that depends on

the exact lie and the way the player swings but I would guess low

to no more than medium bounce is best. The main thing is you

don't want the leading edge to dig....and on the opposite side of

the scale too much bounce may cause a bladed shot.

 

Yesterday I was examining the new Titleist K grind 60* wedges. I looked at the bottom of the 08* and 12* bounce versions. When I set both shafts verticle and set the leading edges to the same height, the 08* bounce bottom was nearly level flat (<-there was a little curvature) and the 12* bounce bottom was about 1-2 mm lower than the leading edge about 1 cm back from it. (FYI this was measurement 1) per my 'quiz'.) I didn't see any big difference in the leading edge roundedness. That 1-2 mm lower bottom will just hit the ground first compared to the flatter bottom 08* bounce wedge.

 

Don't forget that this method of "using the bounce" from tight lies

involves intentionally hitting the ground before the ball. The notion

is that the club will indent the ground a little bit and slide under or

into the bottom of the ball.

 

The reasoning behind this is that it grants a little larger margin for

error compared to trying to fit the leading edge in there cleanly in

that tiny spot.

 

As far as what degree of bounce is best I guess that depends on

the exact lie and the way the player swings but I would guess low

to no more than medium bounce is best. The main thing is you

don't want the leading edge to dig....and on the opposite side of

the scale too much bounce may cause a bladed shot.

 

Don't forget that NOT hitting the ground is ALWAYS better than hitting the ground. The low bounce wedge WON'T hit the ground by 1-2 mm when the high bounce wedge will. This is NEVER better for the high bounce wedge.

 

The leading edge is set equal in this case so the chance of digging is THE SAME with both.

 

You keep assuming the lower bounce edge will dig more. This is a FALSE ASSUMPTION since you are NOT setting the leading edge to the same height in your evaluation. When you set both leading edges the same, the low bounce wedge has MORE ROOM FOR ERROR. Always. And this is for both bladed and fat shots. Your method of hitting the ground with a tight lie with a high bounce wedge is UNNECESSARY with a low bounce wedge.

 

And then on player's swing and AoA, once again you are not setting ALL THINGS EQUAL in your evaluation. When using the same swing, the lower bounce wedge is ALWAYS better.

 

And lastly, the high bounce wedge will always dig slower. Soft ground will NOT deflect it. And the shaft. And the arms. And the hands. You keep missing this fact.

 

So once again, ALL THINGS EQUAL, the high bounce wedge offers ZERO technical benefit compared to the low bounce wedge. The low bounce wedge offers more room for error for clean ball contact.

 

Did you even read my post????

[DeNinny]

Yes Conrad I read your post. Using the bounce is still better with a low bounce wedge. Both bounce wedges will dig but the low bounce wedge digs faster.

 

There is NO higher margin for error with a high bounce wedge. The margins are WORSE.

 

There is no benefit to higher bounce when given the option.

[Conrad1953]

Yes Conrad I read your post. Using the bounce is still better with a low bounce wedge. Both bounce wedges will dig but the low bounce wedge digs faster.

 

There is NO higher margin for error with a high bounce wedge. The margins are WORSE.

 

There is no benefit to higher bounce when given the option.

 

Did you read the WHOLE post???

 

 

As far as what degree of bounce is best I guess that depends on

the exact lie and the way the player swings but I would guess low

to no more than medium bounce is best. The main thing is you

don't want the leading edge to dig....and on the opposite side of

the scale too much bounce may cause a bladed shot.

[DeNinny]

Yes Conrad I read your post. Using the bounce is still better with a low bounce wedge. Both bounce wedges will dig but the low bounce wedge digs faster.

 

There is NO higher margin for error with a high bounce wedge. The margins are WORSE.

 

There is no benefit to higher bounce when given the option.

 

Did you read the WHOLE post???

 

 

As far as what degree of bounce is best I guess that depends on

the exact lie and the way the player swings but I would guess low

to no more than medium bounce is best. The main thing is you

don't want the leading edge to dig....and on the opposite side of

the scale too much bounce may cause a bladed shot.

 

There is no degree of higher bounce that is better given ALL OTHER THINGS EQUAL. See all my other posts for reasons.

[SixtySomePing]

Yes Conrad I read your post. Using the bounce is still better with a low bounce wedge. Both bounce wedges will dig but the low bounce wedge digs faster.

 

There is NO higher margin for error with a high bounce wedge. The margins are WORSE.

 

There is no benefit to higher bounce when given the option.

 

Did you read the WHOLE post???

 

 

As far as what degree of bounce is best I guess that depends on

the exact lie and the way the player swings but I would guess low

to no more than medium bounce is best. The main thing is you

don't want the leading edge to dig....and on the opposite side of

the scale too much bounce may cause a bladed shot.

 

There is no degree of higher bounce that is better given ALL OTHER THINGS EQUAL. See all my other posts for reasons.

 

Carla B. (last name withheld) senior year, higher degree of bounce... sorry

[Reasonability]

I'm going to regret this one. Not diving into this whole bouncy ball thing has personally served me far more than participating. (NOTE: Not speaking for the masses with that comment and NOT saying for one second it should not be discussed). But - I'm online and I've got a free spell of time. So here goes with what amounts to just about the alpha and omega of my capacity to "bounce" in on this seemingly death defying topic.

 

Personally - just me talking here - I can make the case FOR driving the leading edge of the clubface into a point well below the equator of the ball FOR CERTAIN SHOTS. Doing so (FOR ME) involves keeping the trail forearm MOVING and NOT leaning the shaft forward. It works (for me) on tight lies and semi-tight lies. So for THOSE SHOTS - I need the bounces to help slide that leading edge into that area just off of the bottom of the ball and below the equator of the ball to pull it off.

 

FOR ME - I can't and won't argue the way I want the "bounce" of the club to react with dry fluffy sand. It is what it is and call me close-minded about it. I don't care. It's what I do and what I expect. If it's all wrong and not supported by anything but my own screwy notions that makes it work for me the way it does - then I'll live and die in fools paradise. They say Seve learned to play on sandy beaches with a 3 iron as a kid. So - Seve would probably say I'm an idiot. I'll live with it.

 

Now - when it's time to lean that shaft and compress that ball. When we are talking fuller swings (at leas up there in the 3/4 swing range)... I can't think of one good reason for a wide-soled high bounce club be it a wedge or a 1 iron. The goal is ball-first (I think) and all that heavy, wide, high bounce "stuff" is really offering nothing to the equation. Might "feel" different in terms of COG and ball flights. Will definitely "feel" different depending on soil conditions. Might flight out and feel different based on the grind and HOW the face is opened or shut from setup through the strike... but I can't personally make one good case (for me) to EVER introduce the opportunity for something well behind the surface intended to smack that ball.... to even enter into to compromising the chance for just that to happen.

 

You guys keep losing me on this ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL stuff. I just sat here and laid out scenarios where things are NOT equal. Please don't take that to mean you're wasting your breath. Its just that it so happens that its wasted on ME. There are so MANY lies, and shots, a turf conditions, and wind, and you name-it variables that I guess I just don't compute the term ALL THINGS being equal when it comes to golf. Heck - in the same bunker there could be untold dozens of different situations - none of which are "equal". I'm sure the term DOES help narrow the discussion down to a more narrowly defined list of variables and such... but isn't each and every shot a sort of process of examining what is NOT equal and then adapting to just that? Guess I'm just too thick to get it. Ergo my complete lack of participation in a subject I just can't allow myself to get this wrapped around the axle about.

 

Carry on gents. Please don't allow this post to become my next "bicycle" declaration that I'm the one who calls balls and strikes on what makes sense and what should or shouldn't even be talked out. At least now - hopefully - there is a some sense of why I just can't roll my sleeves up on this one. If what I do is wrong - I'll live with it. If it's right - I'll live with it. If it's a little bit of both... I'll live with it. If the reason why I like trying out all sorts of wedges is because I'm searching for something that could have been made easier if I'd just listen and try another approach - I'll live with it.

 

A good friend of mine once said (when describing a long round-about way of getting something simple accomplished)... as "going around your elbow to get to you arse hole". LOL. Now if you've spent any amount of time in the southern US states - you'd appreciate how we tend to use very colorful wording that calls up a lot of visuals to make a point. But this discussion - now that I've weighted in ONCE and will likely NOT have anything new to add... explains exactly how I see it. As said - carry on and have fun. I have no CLUE what would ultimately solve this one to EVERYONE'S ultimate satisfaction.

 

LMAO - if anyone wants or needs to hear it.... "You're 100% correct and I MUST therefore be wrong". (Doubt that changes anything but just in case).

 

Yes Conrad I read your post. Using the bounce is still better with a low bounce wedge. Both bounce wedges will dig but the low bounce wedge digs faster.

 

There is NO higher margin for error with a high bounce wedge. The margins are WORSE.

 

There is no benefit to higher bounce when given the option.

 

Did you read the WHOLE post???

 

 

As far as what degree of bounce is best I guess that depends on

the exact lie and the way the player swings but I would guess low

to no more than medium bounce is best. The main thing is you

don't want the leading edge to dig....and on the opposite side of

the scale too much bounce may cause a bladed shot.

 

There is no degree of higher bounce that is better given ALL OTHER THINGS EQUAL. See all my other posts for reasons.

 

Carla B. (last name withheld) senior year, higher degree of bounce... sorry

 

Cheryl B in my case.... (wonder if they were sisters?)

[DeNinny]

Reason, ALL THINGS EQUAL simply means you fix everything else THE SAME and just compare the two bounces in THAT SCENARIO. You change the scenario, then you change it the same way for BOTH bounces. You apply it same way to both and then compare.

 

When you do this, no matter what the scenario proposed, the low bounce wedge is theoretically better in ALL cases.

 

This is no different than comparing the workability between a blade and a CB. You set the shot and setup EQUAL so that you can compare the club difference. Same thing goes for bounce...set the lie and shot and loft the same...then compare the difference in what bounce does.

 

This is the only way to compare the effect of a single variable in any evaluation. In this case it is bounce. If you change other variables and they are no longer the same for the different bounces, then the comparison is MEANINGLESS.

[Matt J]

My wife was out of town over the weekend, so I went to the grocery store on Wednesday to stock up on some food I like to eat solo, my bachelor menu if you will.

 

One component of a meal I purchased is Top Shelf Ramen noodles. I have no idea what exactly is Top Shelf about an item that costs 12 cents, but I brought a couple of packs home and threw them in the cupboard. Later that evening she reached into the cupboard and saw my Ramen noodles getting a good laugh and bringing it to my attention that I had matured very little in the 20 years since I finished university.

 

Well, I forgot about them until today. It's a little chilly and overcast, and so on my lunch break, I boiled a little saucepan of water. After boiling the noodles and adding some of the flavor mix to the broth I decided to give it a little "homemade touch." 4 Tsp.'s of soy sauch, an ounce or two of hot chili oil, 2 Tsp.'s of curry powder, some freeze dried chives and shitake mushrooms and you actually have a decent soup. Washed down with one of my wife's prized brewed ginger beers and I feel quite satisfied. Joke is on her.

 

Wow, that took longer than expected. Found a cheap Nike Vapor on the bay last night with a Diamana blue board shaft. Also, found a screaming deal on the Grafalloy ProLaunch Red from Rock Bottom Golf that I intend to build with an extra Nike adapter I have on an old 3 wood shaft. That will bring me up to two heads and 3 shafts so I can start experimenting tipping my TiNi trying to get my spin down. Kind of glad the M1 didn't work out as it was probably another 100 bucks more than all that stuff and I think the shaft was less likely to work.

[Qqq123xx]

Can someone tell me what these threads are about and if MtlJeff can be a part of them?

 

Everyone's Welcome in Confessions :)

[media=]

[/media]

Great stuff and so apprepo

Can someone tell me what these threads are about and if MtlJeff can be a part of them?

 

Everyone's Welcome in Confessions :)

[media=]

[/media]

Great stuff and so very apprepo. And is that you singing Pigs?? :tease: ;)

[Qqq123xx]

Waiting for waiting for waiting for waiting for waiting for.....

[DeNinny]

Matt J, ramen rules! I call it the "poor man's pho". Throw in some broccoli and either frozen fish balls or meatballs and you have yourself a yummy cheap meal. My wife likes my ad hoc ramen recipes.

[DeNinny]

Dropped off without explanation...

 

They even unregistered your account! Feeling 'probed' anywhere?

[mdgboxx]

LOL, the wedges I carry range from 8 degrees to 12 degrees of bounce.

I tend to pick my club for a shot based more on loft than bounce.

 

LOL your lack of response to my questions speaks volumes.

 

My point has always been the difference bounce makes WHEN ALL OTHER THINGS ARE EQUAL. And this includes LOFT.

 

Bounce does one thing.....it raises the leading edge WITH THE SHAFT

VERTICAL. If you lean the shaft forward the leading edge is lowered.

That was my point. Forward shaft lean NEGATES bounce.

 

I completely understand your points. I completely understand what shaft lean does and what bounce does. My questions were merely a followup to said points.

 

"Using the bounce" when hitting a shot implies a vertical shaft at impact.

Whether you have 6 degrees or 12 degrees it likely doesn't matter much since

golfer error, as usual, is a larger factor in shot execution.

 

And all I'm saying is that it is unequivocally true that the higher bounce wedge has a higher leading edge. And so when you set the leading edge heights the same between the high and low bounce clubs, you either need to lower the leading edge of high bounce club to the height of the low bounce club, or you need to raise the leading edge of the low bounce club to that of the high bounce club. When you do the former, you end up pushing the bounce of the high bounce club into the ground, whereas the low bounce club is merely touching the ground. When you do the latter, you end up RAISING the low bounce club OFF the ground, but the high bounce wedge is touching it.

 

In BOTH of these cases, the low bounce wedge, based on the pure physics, is theoretically better in this exact scenario. The low bounce wedge has MORE ROOM for ERROR.

 

It is ironic that now you claim error is more important but yet you still have some technical justification for why NOT to play a low bounce club. And you at once had a point that high bounce had some technical merit. My explanation just explained why having the bounce raise the leading edge is NOT better, theoretically, than just raising the low bounce wedge leading edge to the same height WITHOUT the bounce. Both can clip the ball below the equator, but the low bounce wedge can go a little lower.

 

Some people feel more comfortable with a higher bounce wedge cause it

alleviates the worry of the leading edge digging because it is higher off the

ground but low enough to hit the ball below the equator.

 

And this point is a clear contradiction to your other point that 6 degrees vs 12 degrees of bounce DOESN'T matter due to golfer error. So now, shouldn't golfer error cause the digging and NOT the low bounce leading edge since it, as usual, is the larger factor in shot execution?

 

Furthermore, how come it is all of a sudden significant for one of your points but not for another?

 

The best thing you can say is "This works for me but YMMV". That's what

many will say when it comes to matters such as these, rather than tell

someone they're playing the wrong clubs, when you don't know their game.

 

If this is true than you should have said that yourself several posts ago. Until now I just thought we were having a technical discussion still. You had a lot of questions and technical challenges to me for many, many posts. I just thought you would be able to indulge me on mine.

 

And for the record, I have NEVER said anyone is playing the wrong clubs. I know what I write and I have NEVER EVER said that.

 

What I have always said is that there is zero technical benefit of using high bounce clubs based on the laws of physics. And this is still a theoretically true statement. All of my questions and points have always been with respect to this topic alone.

 

So feel free to play whatever you want. No disagreement here. And absolutely I don't know anyone's game here with the exception of dan360s. (I never said I did.)

 

My goal, in this reply is not to teach or impose my way of doing things on anybody. I wanted to reply to Radro until I got farther down, reading other replies. I am simply sharing my experience with bounce, as I see/feel it. Something I had never given any thought, until recently.

 

1) As an adamant sweeper, I always forward press all of my irons. I learned and ingrained this move by spending a lot of time practicing off rubber mats. I am retired...I have/had time. To change ball flight, I change the ball position or length of grip (choke)

 

2) My greatest concern, in different ground conditions, is to evaluate how much I may sink into softer turf. 1/8", IMHO, is huge. I need to prevent any interference with the club head's momentum once it starts. Given no other alternative, for my safety, I would rather blade a ball than hit it fat.

 

3) I've tried a lot of different sole widths on irons, and width and bounce on wedges. I am now accustomed to thinner soles on irons and mid to low bounce on my wedges.

I ruined my 54°/10, Tour-W, SW at a course where there was as much gravel in the multiple bunkers than on the paths. I bought a couple of Tour-S, (52°/12 and 60°/10) conforming grooves. Since I had the 54° tweaked to 51°, I thought it was a good idea to order a 52° with stock 12° bounce...I hated it!

I also can't understand why I opted for a 60°/10 when my Tour-W was 60°/06. ( I guess it would be b/c I heard on the GC that pros would be gaming higher bounces to offset the new groove rule)

I hated them both, enough to put my Tour-Ws back in the bag in mid-season. I had tried, very hard, to adapt to the Tour-S wedges, I even bought a Tour-S, 54°/12 grounded to 54°/10. After ±50 rds and a lot of range time, I had to admit that they weren't for me.

 

4) When I read, on the Ping, introduction to the Glide wedges page, that the 60° came stock with an 18° bounce (IIRC), I contacted Ping CS. They told me that those specs caused more confusion than they had hoped for, and if I could handle a Tour-W, 60°/06, I can handle a Glide TS. Ping has since corrected the Glide specs page to read: TS=60°/06

 

I can accept that, if I prefer some mid/low bounces on my wedges, I imagine that anyone else can choose to play higher bounce clubs, if this is what they are most comfortable with. However, I believe that my margin of error is greater, with a lower bounce. With a higher bounce, I would have to add a precise AoA to the evaluation of the next stroke.

 

I try to keep things as simple as possible. :beruo:

[mdgboxx]

Thug, I remember your metal spikes thread. Total debacle. Shows how over-the-top this place can get!

 

Interesting follow-up. A couple months ago I was chatting with our head pro and I mentioned my metal spike shoes and asked him if he would mind if I wore them during after hours rounds playing by myself. He said no problem, just not during prime times when everyone else would wonder if the course allowed metal, and of course not around the clubhouse. So, I got a free pass to wear metal!

 

Sneakyyyyyyyyyy,

 

New blades, new spikes, you're on a rollllllll :superman: :taunt:

[Matt J]

Judge, it makes me very happy to see you post in here!

 

Sixty, glad to hear everything is A-okay. I couldn't figure out for the life of me how your account would get deleted.

 

TJ, good to see you're out swing a club. Keep your fingers crossed and let's hope the end is near.

 

Ninja, good to hear I'm not the only one who spices up college's favorite noodles.

 

MDG, I never really thought about when you sink down into soft turf how that would change your "true bottom" like a side hill lie. I'll have to think on that a little more!

[mdgboxx]

Lurked on Gigagolf.com and found this:

 

 

Made of 1035c carbon steel.

Forged

If I ordered now, 3-PW, shipped, it would be ±$500 CAD, unless Customs castrates me.

Shipped by Fedex

 

Did you end up getting them?? Customs is hit or miss I find ordering from the states. Sometimes it's not much and others it's killer. I don't understand how it works?? Lol

I thought we had the NAFTA deal going with Canada and I thought the import tax was not that much if anything between our two countries.

 

I don't understand it either, STU. 9-10 yrs ago, I ordered, from the USA, the Butch Harmond "Ultimate Golf" three VHS collection @ $49.95.

By the time it got to my house, via Fedex, it cost me $150 (You're reading right: One Hundred and Fifty dollars)

Had I waited three months, for Golftown to carry it, it would've been $49.99+Tax. That said, most, if not all, OEM equipment sold at Golftown Canada, is in the vicinity of 30%+ than US. (Projected devaluation?) Then you add 15% Tax.

 

When I was a Chartered Member of GolfWRX, I ordered a magnetic divot tool @ $12 (and change), I did not qualify for the Member's discount, and postage was close to $11. The Frogger divot tool was $12.95 at my local Golftown, now $14.95. I was being too WRX Patriotic. :taunt:

[Reasonability]

Judge, it makes me very happy to see you post in here!

 

Sixty, glad to hear everything is A-okay. I couldn't figure out for the life of me how your account would get deleted.

 

TJ, good to see you're out swing a club. Keep your fingers crossed and let's hope the end is near.

 

Ninja, good to hear I'm not the only one who spices up college's favorite noodles.

 

MDG, I never really thought about when you sink down into soft turf how that would change your "true bottom" like a side hill lie. I'll have to think on that a little more!

 

I thank you sir! Sometimes (for me) its better to listen than to speak. Sometimes duty calls and trying to play wrx amid heavy travels and long days can require more gas than I have in the tank (don't know how Rad does it). Sometimes I just need a break. Sometimes I just have nothing useful to contribute at all so I opt these days to just stay out of it. Sometimes - I do like to actually play a little more and talk about playing a little less. Lately I've been experimenting (like you) with a few ebay acquisitions... just for laughs and to learn. But thank you MJ - you've always had my back - including the way we met here online. You sure are a hard worker when it comes to swings, practice, the mental side, adjusting your sticks. Your passion for golf is WAY up there and is to be respected.

[DeNinny]

LOL, the wedges I carry range from 8 degrees to 12 degrees of bounce.

I tend to pick my club for a shot based more on loft than bounce.

 

LOL your lack of response to my questions speaks volumes.

 

My point has always been the difference bounce makes WHEN ALL OTHER THINGS ARE EQUAL. And this includes LOFT.

 

Bounce does one thing.....it raises the leading edge WITH THE SHAFT

VERTICAL. If you lean the shaft forward the leading edge is lowered.

That was my point. Forward shaft lean NEGATES bounce.

 

I completely understand your points. I completely understand what shaft lean does and what bounce does. My questions were merely a followup to said points.

 

"Using the bounce" when hitting a shot implies a vertical shaft at impact.

Whether you have 6 degrees or 12 degrees it likely doesn't matter much since

golfer error, as usual, is a larger factor in shot execution.

 

And all I'm saying is that it is unequivocally true that the higher bounce wedge has a higher leading edge. And so when you set the leading edge heights the same between the high and low bounce clubs, you either need to lower the leading edge of high bounce club to the height of the low bounce club, or you need to raise the leading edge of the low bounce club to that of the high bounce club. When you do the former, you end up pushing the bounce of the high bounce club into the ground, whereas the low bounce club is merely touching the ground. When you do the latter, you end up RAISING the low bounce club OFF the ground, but the high bounce wedge is touching it.

 

In BOTH of these cases, the low bounce wedge, based on the pure physics, is theoretically better in this exact scenario. The low bounce wedge has MORE ROOM for ERROR.

 

It is ironic that now you claim error is more important but yet you still have some technical justification for why NOT to play a low bounce club. And you at once had a point that high bounce had some technical merit. My explanation just explained why having the bounce raise the leading edge is NOT better, theoretically, than just raising the low bounce wedge leading edge to the same height WITHOUT the bounce. Both can clip the ball below the equator, but the low bounce wedge can go a little lower.

 

Some people feel more comfortable with a higher bounce wedge cause it

alleviates the worry of the leading edge digging because it is higher off the

ground but low enough to hit the ball below the equator.

 

And this point is a clear contradiction to your other point that 6 degrees vs 12 degrees of bounce DOESN'T matter due to golfer error. So now, shouldn't golfer error cause the digging and NOT the low bounce leading edge since it, as usual, is the larger factor in shot execution?

 

Furthermore, how come it is all of a sudden significant for one of your points but not for another?

 

The best thing you can say is "This works for me but YMMV". That's what

many will say when it comes to matters such as these, rather than tell

someone they're playing the wrong clubs, when you don't know their game.

 

If this is true than you should have said that yourself several posts ago. Until now I just thought we were having a technical discussion still. You had a lot of questions and technical challenges to me for many, many posts. I just thought you would be able to indulge me on mine.

 

And for the record, I have NEVER said anyone is playing the wrong clubs. I know what I write and I have NEVER EVER said that.

 

What I have always said is that there is zero technical benefit of using high bounce clubs based on the laws of physics. And this is still a theoretically true statement. All of my questions and points have always been with respect to this topic alone.

 

So feel free to play whatever you want. No disagreement here. And absolutely I don't know anyone's game here with the exception of dan360s. (I never said I did.)

 

My goal, in this reply is not to teach or impose my way of doing things on anybody. I wanted to reply to Radro until I got farther down, reading other replies. I am simply sharing my experience with bounce, as I see/feel it. Something I had never given any thought, until recently.

 

1) As an adamant sweeper, I always forward press all of my irons. I learned and ingrained this move by spending a lot of time practicing off rubber mats. I am retired...I have/had time. To change ball flight, I change the ball position or length of grip (choke)

 

2) My greatest concern, in different ground conditions, is to evaluate how much I may sink into softer turf. 1/8", IMHO, is huge. I need to prevent any interference with the club head's momentum once it starts. Given no other alternative, for my safety, I would rather blade a ball than hit it fat.

 

3) I've tried a lot of different sole widths on irons, and width and bounce on wedges. I am now accustomed to thinner soles on irons and mid to low bounce on my wedges.

I ruined my 54°/10, Tour-W, SW at a course where there was as much gravel in the multiple bunkers than on the paths. I bought a couple of Tour-S, (52°/12 and 60°/10) conforming grooves. Since I had the 54° tweaked to 51°, I thought it was a good idea to order a 52° with stock 12° bounce...I hated it!

I also can't understand why I opted for a 60°/10 when my Tour-W was 60°/06. ( I guess it would be b/c I heard on the GC that pros would be gaming higher bounces to offset the new groove rule)

I hated them both, enough to put my Tour-Ws back in the bag in mid-season. I had tried, very hard, to adapt to the Tour-S wedges, I even bought a Tour-S, 54°/12 grounded to 54°/10. After ±50 rds and a lot of range time, I had to admit that they weren't for me.

 

4) When I read, on the Ping, introduction to the Glide wedges page, that the 60° came stock with an 18° bounce (IIRC), I contacted Ping CS. They told me that those specs caused more confusion than they had hoped for, and if I could handle a Tour-W, 60°/06, I can handle a Glide TS. Ping has since corrected the Glide specs page to read: TS=60°/06

 

I can accept that, if I prefer some mid/low bounces on my wedges, I imagine that anyone else can choose to play higher bounce clubs, if this is what they are most comfortable with. However, I believe that my margin of error is greater, with a lower bounce. With a higher bounce, I would have to add a precise AoA to the evaluation of the next stroke.

 

I try to keep things as simple as possible. :beruo:

 

This logic applies to ALL golfers that fully understand the science of bounce. It doesn't matter if you are a digger or a sweeper or if you have a tight lie or buried lie or anything else. As long as ALL OTHER THINGS ARE EQUAL, the lower bounce wedge gives you more margin for error AND allows the club to move faster through any substrate. Also the chances of the leading edge digging are the same when the leading edge is set to the same height. Lastly there is simply not enough ground resistance to cause the clubhead, shaft, golfer arms, and golfer hands to all of a sudden reroute to be a decent shot with ANY bounce club over the course of a fat shot.

 

It really is this simple. Sound science = common sense.

[mdgboxx]

Lurked on Gigagolf.com and found this:

 

 

Made of 1035c carbon steel.

Forged

If I ordered now, 3-PW, shipped, it would be ±$500 CAD, unless Customs castrates me.

Shipped by Fedex

 

Are you serious mdg? I'll trade you my Macs for your S58s. I could use a back

up set. :D

GASP!!!!! BLASPHEMY!!!!!!

 

LOL, I already know there's no way mdg will part with his S58s so it

was really a "faux" offer. My Macs aren't going anywhere. I still need to

get the Mac wedges shafted up. Everything is at home waiting for me

to do it, lol. Those wedges are going to be bada*** and, you know, I

don't even know what the bounce on each of them is....hehehehehe.

Sometimes you are better off not knowing-- you can guessestimate by placing them on a flat surface at neutral position and seeing how far the leading edge is off the ground and then rotate open and see and then close and look. That will give you an idea of what you have to work with in different positions. Do not know if I am playing this weekend or not. Bo Bear is in NY for a couple of months and I do not know how many of the Miura Mafia are in town. I do have my old Cleveland wedges in the bag. I hit the Hopkins good last week and still like the Renegar wedges but there is just something about those old rusty Cleveland 588s I love besides the rust. Like I told Bo on the phone last night I am quitting screwing around with wedges and getting back serious

 

My flat surface being a range mat, my scientific, physics calculations (Sorry, Ninja) are just, THAT:......... Guesstimations. If it feels right, it's in the bag. If it doesn't, it's in the basement.

When I bought my Tour-S wedges, the range mat was the hitting bay at Golftown. They didn't feel quite right, and I thought I could adapt to them. It turned out being a $500 mistake. (3 X $160) :wacko:

[Michael C.]

Reason, I like exchanging swing ideas and thoughts and feels. I have MUCHO respect for you, my friend. You have a good eye and attention for detail. It's weird how a person can make two swings that look identical but have two different results based solely on their intent.

 

When I watch video, I know what I see but, like to hear from others to see if a theme appears. Most of the time, the majority will key on something and be correct...unless it's bounce. For that, I refer to Paige who developed before the other girls in school....and kept developing. The other girls didn't stand a chance. ;)

 

Anyhoo.... I have worked on my swing and it's better. The only thing left is THE big one but, hopefully the groundwork is set. Instead of having compensations, hopefully, I can concentrate on just getting wider and shorter.

 

HOPEFULLY.

 

...and yeah, the hand thing. Lol. Right hand. Cut all the tendons between my forearm and fingers. One of the nerves, both arteries and chipped bones. Non-tempered glass doesn't shatter and, trust me, it's not like me. It's really sharp. ;) I lost some range of motion but mostly when the fingers are extended and it took years for the nerves to grow back. Good news is, I'm good healer and I never have to worry about Carpal Tunnel syndrome. I don't have one. I have a wrist full of scar tissue instead. But, yeah, lucky to have function. I was really scared that I was going to lose my hand...the people in the ER that night were trying to keep me from bleeding to death and keeping my hand alive as it was barely attached.

 

I was always swung a bat and club lefty, but I was predominantly right handed. I learned to use my left hand to do a lot of things in that period of my life. Even after some weeks went by and started to regain use, I still had no feeling in half of my hand until the nerves grew back. I still do some things lefty today that I never did before the accident.

 

That's pretty much it. I'm a lucky dog. I didn't bleed out. I still have my hand and pretty much full use of it. If you didn't know what happened, you'd never know it.

 

TOOLED

[Palauan Hammer]

Sixty!!! Glad to you see you back again friend! :)

 

Reason, great posts and as always thanks for the kind words and support! All these swings, drills and mirror work will pay off someday, somehow.

 

Thanks Matt, and great pickups. Way better deal(s) in my opinion compared to the M1 sounds like fun.

 

Yeah guys, I hope my situation ends this year. My neighbors probably think I'm crazy, year and a half straight of working out and swinging a golf club outside basically everyday LOL. It's so bad people have stopped on the road in front of my house and invited me to go play golf with them hahaha. I wish

 

 

 

 

EDIT:(just read your post) MC, forgot to say brah, I always forget about your injury, and I'm glad that it wasn't debilitating your alive!! Listening to that, nothing short of a miracle!

 

TOOL'ededed

 

 

EDIT#2: Pigs, sweet cart mang! Gotta get some chrome "dubz" for that bad boy LOL

[mdgboxx]

Maddie just refered to 'PD' as 'Period Distance' in the PMS thread. I nearly vomited a bit in my mouth. Might be time for a name change ; )

 

I HAD to check that out, and "woe-is-me" I replied to a post in there. :bigwhack:

[MMB1500]

My wife was out of town over the weekend, so I went to the grocery store on Wednesday to stock up on some food I like to eat solo, my bachelor menu if you will.

 

One component of a meal I purchased is Top Shelf Ramen noodles. I have no idea what exactly is Top Shelf about an item that costs 12 cents, but I brought a couple of packs home and threw them in the cupboard. Later that evening she reached into the cupboard and saw my Ramen noodles getting a good laugh and bringing it to my attention that I had matured very little in the 20 years since I finished university.

 

Well, I forgot about them until today. It's a little chilly and overcast, and so on my lunch break, I boiled a little saucepan of water. After boiling the noodles and adding some of the flavor mix to the broth I decided to give it a little "homemade touch." 4 Tsp.'s of soy sauch, an ounce or two of hot chili oil, 2 Tsp.'s of curry powder, some freeze dried chives and shitake mushrooms and you actually have a decent soup. Washed down with one of my wife's prized brewed ginger beers and I feel quite satisfied. Joke is on her.

 

 

MJ, that sounds very nice actually. In the UK, we have something called 'Pot Noodle' which does what it says on the tin - not sure if it made it's way to the US, but probably. Zero nutritional value, but very tasty. Classic university student food, along with baked beans. Seems like you went the sophisticated route and added some high calibre ingredients to yours to make it a but more tasty.

 

I laughed at your comment regarding not maturing since university. Mrs Wolf says the same thing. She also call s me an "old man" though, so I'm not sure how she reconciles those two things.

[Reasonability]

MDG - There are mat haters-o-plenty on this forum. When I've tried my best to hear them out - they often make reasonable since. They honestly do.

 

At the risk of being a broken record.... not all mats are created equally. Personally I'm not a fan of anything rock-hard and represents a lie that's like the hardest hardpan. The repeated "shock" of such surfaces at impact seems to be the stuff that bends lie and loft angles way out of whack - and could lead to injury to the wrists and elbows. Some clubs made with stainless heads or less malleable metals may tend to get bent less - but those same sticks will transfer the shock up to the golfer more (something's got to give at the end of the day). And - my bet is we've all seen the clubheads flying right off the end of the shaft when they break at the hosel.... mats often MUST have contributed heavily to that failure. Happens at the range A LOT.

 

And while I too (like you) believe in a shallower angle of attack... the swing does have a low point where it "bottoms out" which for irons is hopefully on the target side of the ball. Doesn't (for me) mean that divot is really deep - but there is still a bit of a divot unless the ground below is rock-hard.... which brings us back to the way clubs end up bent out of spec and/or injury and/or snapped shafts all occur. The shorter the club (wedges) the more I personally begin to feel a little suspect of mats - but there STILL at the end of the day either is or isn't a quality mat in use for this feedback or there isn't. So I don't hate all mats all of time. If they were the source of all evil - our friends who play sim golf would never make their games translate to the course. And most pros have an indoor simulator on their personal property.

 

Next...You've seen those buckets of SAND getting dumped in the divots. Then they move the ropes forward and back from week to week while the previous week's beating heals up? What I'm getting at is all that sand over time accumulates and the lies all become VERY sandy. That stuff is galling the crap out of your clubfaces. You're literally sand-blasting the faces of your drivers, hybrids, and wedges. Not good. A GOOD mat removes that potential.

 

At my range - the mat areas are under cover and the lights shine out from above the roof line. LOL - for ME and my bad eyes - the I can be out there past dusk whacking away if I want even if a little late-day drizzle settles in. Not that a drop or two of rain is deal breaker (but given the option - yadda yadda on that one).

 

One last "pro-mat" comment. Again - on a GOOD one - you'll actually hear impact on the surface. Easy to lay any empty box from a sleeve of balls or something similar in various places to make little "gates" to swing through if you're struggling with center of face contact. On the range if you tag the little tees or empty sleeve boxes - they might just fly right into the legs or backside of the next golfer over - which won't kill anyone but is more than a little embarrassing the second or third time it happens - lol.

 

And lastly - about forward pressing. Lots of golfers do it and its regarding in some of the old books (probably newer ones for that matter) as a "good" swing trigger. My only caution is that if your do indeed like to be more of a sweeper - that move often (not for everyone but often) promotes a handsy takeaway. The handsy takeaway (again not for everyone but quite often) leads to a sharper and more "V" shaped downswing - meaning a steeper angle of attack. So if you practice on mats - to my way of thinking - the propensity for what ends up being a steeper angle of attack.... the two just don't go hand in hand (for MOST golfers). That said - if you like to sweep AND you like a little forward press - then I have to assume you already have learned your own lessons and found good ways of avoiding the common pitfalls of forward pressing your full swings.

 

I'll say this in the FWIW category. When I hear folks at the range telling their friends and girl friends to "hit down" on the ball... it makes me personally want to cringe. But if I happen now and then to hear one of them say "try a little forward press as a swing trigger"... I can live with that one. Don't love it personally but at least the newbie is NOT being told to hit DOWN on the ball... which IMO is absolutely TERRIBLE for the newbie to hear. That advice right there is a great way for a series of very bad habits to begin the golfer may never recover from... but its not MY girl friend or buddy being handed that junk and even though it make me cringe... I just stay out of it and let that one pass right on by. LMAO that one has NOTHING to do with mats does it?

 

Given the option to practice on real turf - especially turf not comprised of 90% sand... I'll take it every time. All doubt (in my mind) about truly testing the ball flights and swinging the shorter wedges and such... it all makes too much sense (to me) to argue that mats are the only way to fly. But for the reasons given above - I personally don't trash them provided they are GOOD ones. Now you my friend - if what you do works for you and its known to help you play better more consistent golf -- and you are out there having fun and getting in some reps.... GO FOR IT!!!!!!

[DeNinny]

During impact, the loft of the clubface will deflect the clubhead further down into the ground. Also, the ball stays in contact with the clubhead for milliseconds of time, so the total mass at the head is greater during this time which again pulls the clubhead down into the ground.

 

These are other (100% theoretically correct) reasons why really flat mats are bad. They prevent the natural path of the swing during impact from occurring.

 

A divot can happen even with a sweeping swing. Impact itself can cause it. This is also why pros with faster SSs take bigger divots. For years this was misinterpreted as the pros hitting more 'down' on the ball. They don't. They just take a deeper divot due to higher SS (ALL OTHER THINGS EQUAL!!!).

[Michael C.]

During impact, the loft of the clubface will deflect the clubhead further down into the ground. Also, the ball stays in contact with the clubhead for milliseconds of time, so the total mass at the head is greater during this time which again pulls the clubhead down into the ground.

 

These are other (100% theoretically correct) reasons why really flat mats are bad. They prevent the natural path of the swing during impact from occurring.

 

A divot can happen even with a sweeping swing. Impact itself can cause it. This is also why pros with faster SSs take bigger divots. For years this was misinterpreted as the pros hitting more 'down' on the ball. They don't. They just take a deeper divot due to higher SS (ALL OTHER THINGS EQUAL!!!).

 

So.....

 

Impact will reroute the club?

[Matt J]

Judge, it makes me very happy to see you post in here!

 

Sixty, glad to hear everything is A-okay. I couldn't figure out for the life of me how your account would get deleted.

 

TJ, good to see you're out swing a club. Keep your fingers crossed and let's hope the end is near.

 

Ninja, good to hear I'm not the only one who spices up college's favorite noodles.

 

MDG, I never really thought about when you sink down into soft turf how that would change your "true bottom" like a side hill lie. I'll have to think on that a little more!

 

I thank you sir! Sometimes (for me) its better to listen than to speak. Sometimes duty calls and trying to play wrx amid heavy travels and long days can require more gas than I have in the tank (don't know how Rad does it). Sometimes I just need a break. Sometimes I just have nothing useful to contribute at all so I opt these days to just stay out of it. Sometimes - I do like to actually play a little more and talk about playing a little less. Lately I've been experimenting (like you) with a few ebay acquisitions... just for laughs and to learn. But thank you MJ - you've always had my back - including the way we met here online. You sure are a hard worker when it comes to swings, practice, the mental side, adjusting your sticks. Your passion for golf is WAY up there and is to be respected.

 

Thanks, Reason!

 

I've always enjoyed the amount of mutual respect that floats around our threads. I've learned a lot from you guys.

 

Wolf, I think our wives would get along splendidly!

[DeNinny]

During impact, the loft of the clubface will deflect the clubhead further down into the ground. Also, the ball stays in contact with the clubhead for milliseconds of time, so the total mass at the head is greater during this time which again pulls the clubhead down into the ground.

 

These are other (100% theoretically correct) reasons why really flat mats are bad. They prevent the natural path of the swing during impact from occurring.

 

A divot can happen even with a sweeping swing. Impact itself can cause it. This is also why pros with faster SSs take bigger divots. For years this was misinterpreted as the pros hitting more 'down' on the ball. They don't. They just take a deeper divot due to higher SS (ALL OTHER THINGS EQUAL!!!).

 

So.....

 

Impact will reroute the club?

 

It will stretch it into the SOFT ground. The curve of the swing is the same.

 

This is completely different than the GROUND rerouting the entire path so that the clubhead 'bounces' in a straight path.

 

And yes I thought through what you are getting at already. There is a huge difference between smashing into a hard golf ball and SOFT turf. (In both physics of bounce AND mats, the SOFT turf is what gives way to the clubhead...it CANNNOT change the path until the clubhead slows down significantly...)

[PapaJohick]

7 degrees?

 

:)

 

Hee hee. I saw the 3i m2 tour retail was 18.5*, so maybe the 2i is 16.5*. That's a 4w. But still a 300 yd 4w is insane too.

 

I think I saw where Rory said he can take his 5 wood to 290-305 if he needs to. It was in an article or on an interview one year during a tournament. Crazy long those guys

[mdgboxx]

Lurked on Gigagolf.com and found this:

 

 

Made of 1035c carbon steel.

Forged

If I ordered now, 3-PW, shipped, it would be ±$500 CAD, unless Customs castrates me.

Shipped by Fedex

 

Are you serious mdg? I'll trade you my Macs for your S58s. I could use a back

up set. :D

 

Haha!

 

What took you so long?

I was expecting you (this) BEFORE you got the Macs! LMAO

 

Thing is, if I get the itch to upgrade my i20s, they'll be the ones leaving. I learned from Ping that, even though he was a Ping authorized dealer, the owner of my local Nevada Bob's Golf, (closed since) was not legally authorized to tweak my lofts on the S58s. It seems that I would have had to send them to Ping instead.

 

Bottom line is: I'll hang on to them......

 

NOTE: Should there be any change whatsoever, you'll be the first to hear about it....How's that Broseph?

LOL so Nevada Bob's was not legally allowed to tweak lofts on your S-58s huuh? OMG I guess I am a law breaker then. I guess they can send the Ping Police after me. LOL again if they come they will get beat over the head with a genuine antique Forged in the USA Macgregor butter knife! How is that? Seriously I remember when Ping tried to make us a dealer when we had the golf shop with the same crap. We would have had to bought a digital machine and went to their bending course. We told Ping where to stick it

 

Oddly enough, since he had signed that deal with Ping, (machine/course) that was the reason they didn't pull his account. (This from Ping.ca, CS) But, he had to ask permission/inform Ping before he did the work. Something to do with my account/registration specs. Should I send any club(s) back to Ping for repairs, at a later date, Ping will bring my club(s) back to their "original" specs...Which are now flawed.

 

I learned that, years later, when I called to inquire about the Glide wedges.