At what point will the decline of golf be irreversible...

[thug the bunny]

OP, what do you mean by irreversible? Like golf just disappearing? People still play cricket and badminton. I think tennis is a good analogy. Back in the Connor Borg McEnroe days tennis was a top draw sport. Now it has contracted back to sustainable levels, but is still vibrant and healthy, although the major vendors are really only 5 - Head, Wilson, Babolat, Prince, and Yonex. The golf bubble created about 850 golf vendors, which is just dumb and unsustainable. It is only proper that the golf flood returns back into its banks.

[Ferguson]

It all boils down to affordability, and what else you could be doing with that time.

What's the opportunity cost of playing golf?

[melo]

Don't worry

About a thing

Cause

Every little thing

Is gonna be alright

 

Sayin don't worry

About a thing...

 

This is like saying 'Is tennis going to disappear?'. No. Is skiing going to go away?. No. Is cycling going to disappear? No. Is kayaking going to disappear? No. Is bowling going to disappear? No. Is fly fishing going to disappear? No. Is running going to disappear? No. Is ice skating going to go away? No. Is hiking going to just stop? No. Is archery going to disappear? No. Is track and field going to disappear? No. Is rock climbing going to disappear? No. Is surfing going to just fade away? No.

 

Cmon man. These are all expensive difficult activities that require a lot of dedication, money, and time. Lets just end this stupidness right there. I'm really getting tired of this death of golf stuff. It's silly. At best.

 

Almost nothing you mentioned is in any way similar to golf. Tennis courts are public, mostly. Running requires nothing. Hiking requires only a place to hike. Kayaking, rafting, fishing, cycling, rock climbing, etc. These are activities that occur in natural environments, not 5-25 million dollar courses. Bowling is only moderately comparable. I can bowl for 3 hours for like $10 with a groupon. They let me use a ball and shoes, so I don't have to buy my own, and I can go at night or in the rain. I also don't have to wait for other people to bowl on my lane unless they are in my group. You're trying to compare Apples to coconuts.

[Cool Hand Luke]

OP, what do you mean by irreversible? Like golf just disappearing? People still play cricket and badminton. I think tennis is a good analogy. Back in the Connor Borg McEnroe days tennis was a top draw sport. Now it has contracted back to sustainable levels, but is still vibrant and healthy, although the major vendors are really only 5 - Head, Wilson, Babolat, Prince, and Yonex. The golf bubble created about 850 golf vendors, which is just dumb and unsustainable. It is only proper that the golf flood returns back into its banks.

 

Tennis is only a good analogy if you're talking about the professional games.... for amateurs its a terrible analogy... virtually every aspect of these two sports are different on the amateur side. And cricket and badminton?!?! c'mon maaaan

[raynorfan1]

Skiing is probably the best comparable.

 

Requirements:

 

(1) Expensive, purpose-built land; (2) large time commitment to 'play'; (3) expensive equipment; (4) significant learning curve to be "good".

 

In New England, we've seen the disappearance of a huge number of "family" ski slopes - there was a time when almost every significant hill had a rope tow up the side - as the industry has consolidated. Something close to 200 ski areas in Massachusetts alone have closed. Yet skiing's not dead.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if golf follows a similar consolidation, with lower-end courses closing, and bigger, "better" facilities opening. There will be less "after work" play, and more "long weekend getaway" resort-style play.

[596]

Once you get involved in cycling, running, swimming, tennis, etc it is just as or more expensive then golf. I spend easily far less each year in golf then I ever did in one year of racing triathlons. One race can cost $100 to $600 just for entry fee. Then you add in the over night stays, food, racing stuff (unlike training stuff) and you easily spend $500 to $1,000 to do one race. If you race 2-4 times per month it all adds up quickly. And this is after you've purchased $10,000 of equipment. Much more expensive then golf. Triathlons sell out every single race to literally hundreds to thousands of racers.

 

Golf is not dying. It is not more expensive then any other sport. With the pre housing bubble that added way too many "golf course communities" and then the bubble crushing lots of them, golf is seeing a re-adjustment to normal. It won't ever die, there just won't be as many people playing. There is no one reason for this downturn. Lots of factors to the downturn and lots of factors saying golf will be around forever.

[thug the bunny]

Once you get involved in cycling, running, swimming, tennis, etc it is just as or more expensive then golf. I spend easily far less each year in golf then I ever did in one year of racing triathlons. One race can cost $100 to $600 just for entry fee. Then you add in the over night stays, food, racing stuff (unlike training stuff) and you easily spend $500 to $1,000 to do one race. If you race 2-4 times per month it all adds up quickly. And this is after you've purchased $10,000 of equipment. Much more expensive then golf. Triathlons sell out every single race to literally hundreds to thousands of racers.

 

Golf is not dying. It is not more expensive then any other sport. With the pre housing bubble that added way too many "golf course communities" and then the bubble crushing lots of them, golf is seeing a re-adjustment to normal. It won't ever die, there just won't be as many people playing. There is no one reason for this downturn. Lots of factors to the downturn and lots of factors saying golf will be around forever.

 

Thanks, I was just about to say this.

 

melo and ch luke obviously do not participate in those activities I mentioned as analogies. I play tennis. A good stick is $250, and I used to have 6. Shoes, shorts, shirts, and balls are consumables that constantly need replacement. And if you don't live in the south you have to pay for indoor courts during the winter. Don't tell me tennis is not expensive.

 

Hiking, OMG. I used to be an avid backpacker. A good pack is around $1K. Good boots ~$500. Look, I'll just stop and guarantee you backpacking is freaking expensive.

 

Cycling, you have to be joking. One of the most expensive hobbies out there.

 

I could keep going. Look, it's not just the expense involved. All the chicken littles proclaiming the death of golf always point out the time involved as well. All of the activities I mentioned involve huge amounts of time to become proficient. It seems the difference is that when a cyclist spends 5 hrs doing a century ride or a tennis player spends 3 hrs playing a 3 set match or a skier spends the whole day on the slopes or a scuba diver spends 5 hrs diving, these folks are loving every minute of it, whereas it seems that golfers (at least a lot of golfers here on WRX) are hating every minute of it if the round goes over 4 hrs.

 

Why is that?

[GeorgeHWB]

at what point are we unable to reverse the trend? And what can we do to to attract more loyal golfers from those who are under 39?

 

Golf will always have a presence in the world. It had presence well before it became a mainstream sport and it will continue to have a presence long after it's no longer mainstream.

 

I don't need to do anything to attract people to the sport. The people who should worry about that are the people who profit from golf: golf course owners and equipment manufacturers.

[Cool Hand Luke]

Once you get involved in cycling, running, swimming, tennis, etc it is just as or more expensive then golf. I spend easily far less each year in golf then I ever did in one year of racing triathlons. One race can cost $100 to $600 just for entry fee. Then you add in the over night stays, food, racing stuff (unlike training stuff) and you easily spend $500 to $1,000 to do one race. If you race 2-4 times per month it all adds up quickly. And this is after you've purchased $10,000 of equipment. Much more expensive then golf. Triathlons sell out every single race to literally hundreds to thousands of racers.

 

Golf is not dying. It is not more expensive then any other sport. With the pre housing bubble that added way too many "golf course communities" and then the bubble crushing lots of them, golf is seeing a re-adjustment to normal. It won't ever die, there just won't be as many people playing. There is no one reason for this downturn. Lots of factors to the downturn and lots of factors saying golf will be around forever.

 

Thanks, I was just about to say this.

 

melo and ch luke obviously do not participate in those activities I mentioned as analogies. I play tennis. A good stick is $250, and I used to have 6. Shoes, shorts, shirts, and balls are consumables that constantly need replacement. And if you don't live in the south you have to pay for indoor courts during the winter. Don't tell me tennis is not expensive.

 

Hiking, OMG. I used to be an avid backpacker. A good pack is around $1K. Good boots ~$500. Look, I'll just stop and guarantee you backpacking is freaking expensive.

 

Cycling, you have to be joking. One of the most expensive hobbies out there.

 

I could keep going. Look, it's not just the expense involved. All the chicken littles proclaiming the death of golf always point out the time involved as well. All of the activities I mentioned involve huge amounts of time to become proficient. It seems the difference is that when a cyclist spends 5 hrs doing a century ride or a tennis player spends 3 hrs playing a 3 set match or a skier spends the whole day on the slopes or a scuba diver spends 5 hrs diving, these folks are loving every minute of it, whereas it seems that golfers (at least a lot of golfers here on WRX) are hating every minute of it if the round goes over 4 hrs.

 

Why is that?

 

Ok, I suppose I agree for the most part. you can spend a small fortune on any hobby or sport. the difference, in my mind, is the floor cost/commitment for playing golf is higher than those other hobbies/sports. also, in terms of land and resources, golf is on another level. cycling and hiking (can) require a large piece of land but mostly public or a small fee for state parks and such.

 

I'm not saying golf is dying. Golf is retracting, as many have already stated. But, I do believe the retraction of classic, green grass golf will continue for a long time and we will see it replaced by simulator golf/top golf/long drive.

 

I think your last point is a bit embellished but nonetheless a good pot-stirrer.

[Golfnuck]

Once you get involved in cycling, running, swimming, tennis, etc it is just as or more expensive then golf. I spend easily far less each year in golf then I ever did in one year of racing triathlons. One race can cost $100 to $600 just for entry fee. Then you add in the over night stays, food, racing stuff (unlike training stuff) and you easily spend $500 to $1,000 to do one race. If you race 2-4 times per month it all adds up quickly. And this is after you've purchased $10,000 of equipment. Much more expensive then golf. Triathlons sell out every single race to literally hundreds to thousands of racers.

 

Golf is not dying. It is not more expensive then any other sport. With the pre housing bubble that added way too many "golf course communities" and then the bubble crushing lots of them, golf is seeing a re-adjustment to normal. It won't ever die, there just won't be as many people playing. There is no one reason for this downturn. Lots of factors to the downturn and lots of factors saying golf will be around forever.

 

Thanks, I was just about to say this.

 

melo and ch luke obviously do not participate in those activities I mentioned as analogies. I play tennis. A good stick is $250, and I used to have 6. Shoes, shorts, shirts, and balls are consumables that constantly need replacement. And if you don't live in the south you have to pay for indoor courts during the winter. Don't tell me tennis is not expensive.

 

Hiking, OMG. I used to be an avid backpacker. A good pack is around $1K. Good boots ~$500. Look, I'll just stop and guarantee you backpacking is freaking expensive.

 

Cycling, you have to be joking. One of the most expensive hobbies out there.

 

I could keep going. Look, it's not just the expense involved. All the chicken littles proclaiming the death of golf always point out the time involved as well. All of the activities I mentioned involve huge amounts of time to become proficient. It seems the difference is that when a cyclist spends 5 hrs doing a century ride or a tennis player spends 3 hrs playing a 3 set match or a skier spends the whole day on the slopes or a scuba diver spends 5 hrs diving, these folks are loving every minute of it, whereas it seems that golfers (at least a lot of golfers here on WRX) are hating every minute of it if the round goes over 4 hrs.

 

Why is that?

 

Good point about the amount of time to play golf vs. other sports.

 

It is often pointed out that the length of time to play golf is a detriment. As "bunny" has asked why is that and is it really an issue?

 

Contrary to most here I believe that it is the length of time to play golf that ensures it will always survive.

 

When I look around at the members at my club many retired in their mid 50's.

 

I believe a lot of them treat golf as occupying the time that they used to work.

 

So lets say our average round is 4 hours plus one hour before to warm up and one hour after for drinks it totals a perfect 6 hours ........... just like going to work.

[HatsForBats]

melo and ch luke obviously do not participate in those activities I mentioned as analogies. I play tennis. A good stick is $250, and I used to have 6. Shoes, shorts, shirts, and balls are consumables that constantly need replacement. And if you don't live in the south you have to pay for indoor courts during the winter. Don't tell me tennis is not expensive.

 

Fine, Tennis does not have to be as expensive as golf on the same relative level. Better? I mean you could make water drinking into an expensive activity as they have bottles that sell in $100's to $60,000 range. I agree that you can play golf on the cheap but not nearly as cheap as tennis, hiking, cycling etc. Shoes, shorts/pants, shirts? Come on, I have those for golf and don't include those in my expenses as they are also used as part of my daily dress. If someone wants to play tennis on the cheap I find it highly unlikely they are in a job where they need to wear a suit every day let alone all the time.

 

If you want to play tennis during the winter in Jersey or the Philly burbs you don't have to play indoors. If I can be out there banging around golf balls in 45 degree weather you can be playing tennis. When it snows you can choose not to play just like I may do for golf. If I play on the cheap I will likely be paying $50+ for the Saturday and Sunday morning tee time while you can be on the court for free (I know of at least 4 places in my immediate area with free outdoor courts). For most people just to practice full golf shots requires a decent chunk of change (driving range).... as compared to tennis.

[melo]

Once you get involved in cycling, running, swimming, tennis, etc it is just as or more expensive then golf. I spend easily far less each year in golf then I ever did in one year of racing triathlons. One race can cost $100 to $600 just for entry fee. Then you add in the over night stays, food, racing stuff (unlike training stuff) and you easily spend $500 to $1,000 to do one race. If you race 2-4 times per month it all adds up quickly. And this is after you've purchased $10,000 of equipment. Much more expensive then golf. Triathlons sell out every single race to literally hundreds to thousands of racers.

 

Golf is not dying. It is not more expensive then any other sport. With the pre housing bubble that added way too many "golf course communities" and then the bubble crushing lots of them, golf is seeing a re-adjustment to normal. It won't ever die, there just won't be as many people playing. There is no one reason for this downturn. Lots of factors to the downturn and lots of factors saying golf will be around forever.

 

You're joking, right? What you mean is if you try to get incredibly competitive in those sports you can spend a lot of money. Well guess what, if you try and make it to Monday qualifying at a PGA event, you'll spend several thousand also. Not to mention the cost of lessons at that level? Are you serious...we are talking about recreational activities. The recreational cost of tennis is $5 for a can of balls and $25 for a racket. Can you spend $300 on a racket and have 3 or 5 of them, sure you can, if you're trying to play at a high competitive level. Getting professional golf lessons or having a swing coach is unfathomably expensive.

 

Skiing also isn't a good comparison. The number of skiers declined because snowboarding exploded. The total number of skiers and snowboarders has held steady right at 10 million or so for the past 5 years. Slopes closed because they weren't making any money. The large resort style slopes were getting all the business.

[Ferguson]

Skiing is probably the best comparable.

 

Requirements:

 

(1) Expensive, purpose-built land; (2) large time commitment to 'play'; (3) expensive equipment; (4) significant learning curve to be "good".

 

In New England, we've seen the disappearance of a huge number of "family" ski slopes - there was a time when almost every significant hill had a rope tow up the side - as the industry has consolidated. Something close to 200 ski areas in Massachusetts alone have closed. Yet skiing's not dead.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if golf follows a similar consolidation, with lower-end courses closing, and bigger, "better" facilities opening. There will be less "after work" play, and more "long weekend getaway" resort-style play.

 

 

Skiing? Not a sport.

[596]

Once you get involved in cycling, running, swimming, tennis, etc it is just as or more expensive then golf. I spend easily far less each year in golf then I ever did in one year of racing triathlons. One race can cost $100 to $600 just for entry fee. Then you add in the over night stays, food, racing stuff (unlike training stuff) and you easily spend $500 to $1,000 to do one race. If you race 2-4 times per month it all adds up quickly. And this is after you've purchased $10,000 of equipment. Much more expensive then golf. Triathlons sell out every single race to literally hundreds to thousands of racers.

 

Golf is not dying. It is not more expensive then any other sport. With the pre housing bubble that added way too many "golf course communities" and then the bubble crushing lots of them, golf is seeing a re-adjustment to normal. It won't ever die, there just won't be as many people playing. There is no one reason for this downturn. Lots of factors to the downturn and lots of factors saying golf will be around forever.

 

You're joking, right? What you mean is if you try to get incredibly competitive in those sports you can spend a lot of money. Well guess what, if you try and make it to Monday qualifying at a PGA event, you'll spend several thousand also. Not to mention the cost of lessons at that level? Are you serious...we are talking about recreational activities. The recreational cost of tennis is $5 for a can of balls and $25 for a racket. Can you spend $300 on a racket and have 3 or 5 of them, sure you can, if you're trying to play at a high competitive level. Getting professional golf lessons or having a swing coach is unfathomably expensive.

 

Skiing also isn't a good comparison. The number of skiers declined because snowboarding exploded. The total number of skiers and snowboarders has held steady right at 10 million or so for the past 5 years. Slopes closed because they weren't making any money. The large resort style slopes were getting all the business.

 

I can't agree with you here. I've played a lot of sports and none on a pro level. Yet golf is not anymore expensive then any of the others. As a recreational snow skier I spent many more dollars in the 4 months of winter then I do all year in golf. As a recreational triathlete, golf does not even come close to the cost of bicycles, wheels, outfits, wetsuits, shoes, and on and on. You can play golf with a full bag of clubs for less then the cost of one bicycle wheel (without the tire...lol). Go price an entry level race bike now-a-days.....you're looking at $3,000- $4,000 to just get started. And don't tell me that you are using an "entry level" set of golf clubs from Dicks at $399. Even a full set of PXG doesn't cost as much as what lots of us had in our bicycles.

 

Golf is expensive. But it is not the reason golf declined. As I mentioned above.....too many golf courses, too many people picking up the latest sport to play.....too many golf communities are built.....too many jump on the band wagon OEMs.....too many get rich quick golf courses are built.......bubble hits....many people stop playing, courses go bust. It was not the price of golf that did it.

[melo]

Once you get involved in cycling, running, swimming, tennis, etc it is just as or more expensive then golf. I spend easily far less each year in golf then I ever did in one year of racing triathlons. One race can cost $100 to $600 just for entry fee. Then you add in the over night stays, food, racing stuff (unlike training stuff) and you easily spend $500 to $1,000 to do one race. If you race 2-4 times per month it all adds up quickly. And this is after you've purchased $10,000 of equipment. Much more expensive then golf. Triathlons sell out every single race to literally hundreds to thousands of racers.

 

Golf is not dying. It is not more expensive then any other sport. With the pre housing bubble that added way too many "golf course communities" and then the bubble crushing lots of them, golf is seeing a re-adjustment to normal. It won't ever die, there just won't be as many people playing. There is no one reason for this downturn. Lots of factors to the downturn and lots of factors saying golf will be around forever.

 

You're joking, right? What you mean is if you try to get incredibly competitive in those sports you can spend a lot of money. Well guess what, if you try and make it to Monday qualifying at a PGA event, you'll spend several thousand also. Not to mention the cost of lessons at that level? Are you serious...we are talking about recreational activities. The recreational cost of tennis is $5 for a can of balls and $25 for a racket. Can you spend $300 on a racket and have 3 or 5 of them, sure you can, if you're trying to play at a high competitive level. Getting professional golf lessons or having a swing coach is unfathomably expensive.

 

Skiing also isn't a good comparison. The number of skiers declined because snowboarding exploded. The total number of skiers and snowboarders has held steady right at 10 million or so for the past 5 years. Slopes closed because they weren't making any money. The large resort style slopes were getting all the business.

 

I can't agree with you here. I've played a lot of sports and none on a pro level. Yet golf is not anymore expensive then any of the others. As a recreational snow skier I spent many more dollars in the 4 months of winter then I do all year in golf. As a recreational triathlete, golf does not even come close to the cost of bicycles, wheels, outfits, wetsuits, shoes, and on and on. You can play golf with a full bag of clubs for less then the cost of one bicycle wheel (without the tire...lol). Go price an entry level race bike now-a-days.....you're looking at $3,000- $4,000 to just get started. And don't tell me that you are using an "entry level" set of golf clubs from Dicks at $399. Even a full set of PXG doesn't cost as much as what lots of us had in our bicycles.

 

Golf is expensive. But it is not the reason golf declined. As I mentioned above.....too many golf courses, too many people picking up the latest sport to play.....too many golf communities are built.....too many jump on the band wagon OEMs.....too many get rich quick golf courses are built.......bubble hits....many people stop playing, courses go bust. It was not the price of golf that did it.

 

I disagree that you can be a "recreational" triathlete. If you were, you could by a generic road bike, a pair of swimming trunks, some good running shoes, and a water resistant watch. When you buy a $3,000 bike and spend thousands of other dollars on other equipment and training, you are doing so competitively. It also doesn't cost you any money to practice. You just go practice. If I am trying to compete in golf, even in high level amateur events, it would cost me WAY more than being a triathlete, just for the coach alone.

[596]

I've been there done that. All I can say is from first hand experience I know for a fact that a recreational triathlete will spend more then a rec golfer. I'm no longer going there.

[Golfnuck]

Interest watching the "cost" of various sports banter.

 

Some costing based on sports that I do in Vancouver BC.

 

Golf:

 

Set of clubs - TaylorMade AeroBurner set - $1,100 http://www.golftown.com/TaylorMade-Aeroburner-HL-Package-Set-with-3H-4H-5-PW-Combo-Iron-Set-with-Steel-Shafts-29010#.WaXG78iGO70

Shoes - Adidas Climacool Motion - $110 http://www.golftown.com/adidas-Golf-Mens-Climacool-Motion-Spikeless-Golf-Shoe-27864#.WaXHqMiGO70

Other stuff - $500

 

Total gear - $1,710

 

Balls - Nike SFT $25 for 24 balls = $250 (estimate 6 balls per round @ 40 rounds) http://www.golftown.com/Nike-Golf-SFT-Double-Dozen-Golf-Balls-22922#.WaXHWMiGO70

Facility costs - $35 per round (Fraserview Golf Course a great public course) @ 40 rounds = $1,400

 

Total cost to play - $1,650 per year

 

Skiing:

 

Skis - Atomic Vintage $520 http://www.northshoreskiandboard.com/store/?model_number=ATOVAN85

Ski Boots - Atomic Hawx $450 http://www.northshoreskiandboard.com/store/?model_number=ATOHawxU100

Ski Bindings - Atomic STH $350 http://www.northshoreskiandboard.com/store/?model_number=ATOSTH16

Ski Cloths - $500

 

Total gear costs - $1,820

 

Facility costs - local mountains Cypress at $60 per day @ 40 days = $2,400

 

 

I am using the very low end for both sports.

 

Everything costs money ..... just depends on where you want to spend it.

[bermuda]

I'm with 596. I started playing golf as a kid and I'm sure my dad spent nothing on the clubs and little bag he gave me.

 

As an adult, I branched into classic cars -- actually just one, and one of the cheapest to build and maintain, a 60s Mustang. Way more money than golf.

 

So I bought a jet ski. Way more money than golf, even though I used a free country sand boat ramp and rode on public water.

 

So I bought a motorcycle. Did you know two tires for a motorcycle can cost more than four tires for a car? Do you want a $50 helmet or a $500 helmet? How much is your head worth? Do you want to ride in Wal-Mart jeans or dedicated motorcycle gear? How much is your skin worth?

 

Anyway, golf can be as cheap as you want it to be. If it survived the plague, two world wars, the Great Depression and numerous other catastrophes, it will survive whatever the issue is now. What is it again?

[Pepperturbo]

Its just going back to what is usually is, a game for those who have extra time and extra money. This day in age, people are making less money=less disposable income=working more=no time for golf. Add to that the attention span of millennials who would much rather play Pokeman Go than be on a golf course.

 

Your first statement is correct, second NOT correct. Most employees pay NO attention to what's behind payroll costs, which I am responsible for. Also, being the man that signs the payroll checks of all levels of employee, I can assure YOU, people are making more today that twenty years ago, for the same level of skill or lack thereof. Admin Assistants (Secretary's) use to make 20-30k, today some are 50-60k, not including payroll costs.

 

Less disposable has merit in exempt / non-exempt segment because more people are ducting money for their 401k, and have higher amounts deducted from each pay check to offset paying taxes at the end the year. What you didn't mention that plays a huge roll in disposable income, many people chose to live above their pay, thinking they're entitled (really common in CA and tech sectors). Use to pay all healthcare costs, but I stopped that ten years ago. Today everyone contributes to high cost of personal as well as family healthcare, and still they make more than ever before.

 

Love your last comment. Many of our clients quit campus recruiting because of that.

 

You do realize that with inflation, 30k 20 years ago = 50k in 2017, which means people are being paid more, but once you adjust for current cost of living and inflation, they actually have less.

 

If you think an admin should still be making 20k per year, which mind you is about $10.25 an hour, I think you and your fellow executives would be answering a lot of your own phone calls.

 

As far as working more, that is also true. Americans work more hours. Something like 15 million Americans work more than 59 hours per week. And even those who don't "work" more are now part of two income families which means more time after work splitting chores and household duties. We have less free time. We have less disposable income. We have families where both spouses work. We have more activities to take our children to. When this generation gets to 50 or 60, it will be nothing like it was for the baby boomers.

 

You also make a huge, and erroneous assumption about 401k. Only about 30% of Americans invest in a 401k. More importantly the average is about 8% of pre-tax money invested, which means the average American is barely noticing a 401k deduction. What they are noticing is employers like yourself who think all of your employees make too much money, so you don't cover their healthcare anymore, which adds hundreds or thousands to their monthly expenses, and tens of thousands if they have a medical emergency because of the deductibles and out of pockets.

 

Anyway, that is off-topic. Other factors I've considered. Does daylight savings help or hurt golf? What role will global warming play? If hundreds or thousands more courses contract, will that raise or lower prices elsewhere?

 

That's right, you think?? What you guess has no bearing on how any north American company operatives, much less mine; which has been profitable every year since the 80's. So you know facts are different from opinions and ideals; we provide a wide assortment of HR related services to Fortune 1000 clients, which includes salary and 401k admin, etc. Best put your assumptions where they belong, the nearest trash receptacle. You are right about one thing though, trash is off topic. Have a good day.

[thug the bunny]

Once you get involved in cycling, running, swimming, tennis, etc it is just as or more expensive then golf. I spend easily far less each year in golf then I ever did in one year of racing triathlons. One race can cost $100 to $600 just for entry fee. Then you add in the over night stays, food, racing stuff (unlike training stuff) and you easily spend $500 to $1,000 to do one race. If you race 2-4 times per month it all adds up quickly. And this is after you've purchased $10,000 of equipment. Much more expensive then golf. Triathlons sell out every single race to literally hundreds to thousands of racers.

 

Golf is not dying. It is not more expensive then any other sport. With the pre housing bubble that added way too many "golf course communities" and then the bubble crushing lots of them, golf is seeing a re-adjustment to normal. It won't ever die, there just won't be as many people playing. There is no one reason for this downturn. Lots of factors to the downturn and lots of factors saying golf will be around forever.

 

Thanks, I was just about to say this.

 

melo and ch luke obviously do not participate in those activities I mentioned as analogies. I play tennis. A good stick is $250, and I used to have 6. Shoes, shorts, shirts, and balls are consumables that constantly need replacement. And if you don't live in the south you have to pay for indoor courts during the winter. Don't tell me tennis is not expensive.

 

Hiking, OMG. I used to be an avid backpacker. A good pack is around $1K. Good boots ~$500. Look, I'll just stop and guarantee you backpacking is freaking expensive.

 

Cycling, you have to be joking. One of the most expensive hobbies out there.

 

I could keep going. Look, it's not just the expense involved. All the chicken littles proclaiming the death of golf always point out the time involved as well. All of the activities I mentioned involve huge amounts of time to become proficient. It seems the difference is that when a cyclist spends 5 hrs doing a century ride or a tennis player spends 3 hrs playing a 3 set match or a skier spends the whole day on the slopes or a scuba diver spends 5 hrs diving, these folks are loving every minute of it, whereas it seems that golfers (at least a lot of golfers here on WRX) are hating every minute of it if the round goes over 4 hrs.

 

Why is that?

 

Ok, I suppose I agree for the most part. you can spend a small fortune on any hobby or sport. the difference, in my mind, is the floor cost/commitment for playing golf is higher than those other hobbies/sports. also, in terms of land and resources, golf is on another level. cycling and hiking (can) require a large piece of land but mostly public or a small fee for state parks and such.

 

I'm not saying golf is dying. Golf is retracting, as many have already stated. But, I do believe the retraction of classic, green grass golf will continue for a long time and we will see it replaced by simulator golf/top golf/long drive.

 

I think your last point is a bit embellished but nonetheless a good pot-stirrer.

 

Haha, embellishment is the WRX way!

[thug the bunny]

melo and ch luke obviously do not participate in those activities I mentioned as analogies. I play tennis. A good stick is $250, and I used to have 6. Shoes, shorts, shirts, and balls are consumables that constantly need replacement. And if you don't live in the south you have to pay for indoor courts during the winter. Don't tell me tennis is not expensive.

 

Fine, Tennis does not have to be as expensive as golf on the same relative level. Better? I mean you could make water drinking into an expensive activity as they have bottles that sell in $100's to $60,000 range. I agree that you can play golf on the cheap but not nearly as cheap as tennis, hiking, cycling etc. Shoes, shorts/pants, shirts? Come on, I have those for golf and don't include those in my expenses as they are also used as part of my daily dress. If someone wants to play tennis on the cheap I find it highly unlikely they are in a job where they need to wear a suit every day let alone all the time.

 

If you want to play tennis during the winter in Jersey or the Philly burbs you don't have to play indoors. If I can be out there banging around golf balls in 45 degree weather you can be playing tennis. When it snows you can choose not to play just like I may do for golf. If I play on the cheap I will likely be paying $50+ for the Saturday and Sunday morning tee time while you can be on the court for free (I know of at least 4 places in my immediate area with free outdoor courts). For most people just to practice full golf shots requires a decent chunk of change (driving range).... as compared to tennis.

 

OK you got me. For the tennis analogy I reached a bit, although back in the day I spent stupidly on tennis. Still, my main point is that there are plenty of comparable (more or less) sports that are 'fringe' sports and have reached equilibrium and are never going to 'die'.

[melo]

Its just going back to what is usually is, a game for those who have extra time and extra money. This day in age, people are making less money=less disposable income=working more=no time for golf. Add to that the attention span of millennials who would much rather play Pokeman Go than be on a golf course.

 

Your first statement is correct, second NOT correct. Most employees pay NO attention to what's behind payroll costs, which I am responsible for. Also, being the man that signs the payroll checks of all levels of employee, I can assure YOU, people are making more today that twenty years ago, for the same level of skill or lack thereof. Admin Assistants (Secretary's) use to make 20-30k, today some are 50-60k, not including payroll costs.

 

Less disposable has merit in exempt / non-exempt segment because more people are ducting money for their 401k, and have higher amounts deducted from each pay check to offset paying taxes at the end the year. What you didn't mention that plays a huge roll in disposable income, many people chose to live above their pay, thinking they're entitled (really common in CA and tech sectors). Use to pay all healthcare costs, but I stopped that ten years ago. Today everyone contributes to high cost of personal as well as family healthcare, and still they make more than ever before.

 

Love your last comment. Many of our clients quit campus recruiting because of that.

 

You do realize that with inflation, 30k 20 years ago = 50k in 2017, which means people are being paid more, but once you adjust for current cost of living and inflation, they actually have less.

 

If you think an admin should still be making 20k per year, which mind you is about $10.25 an hour, I think you and your fellow executives would be answering a lot of your own phone calls.

 

As far as working more, that is also true. Americans work more hours. Something like 15 million Americans work more than 59 hours per week. And even those who don't "work" more are now part of two income families which means more time after work splitting chores and household duties. We have less free time. We have less disposable income. We have families where both spouses work. We have more activities to take our children to. When this generation gets to 50 or 60, it will be nothing like it was for the baby boomers.

 

You also make a huge, and erroneous assumption about 401k. Only about 30% of Americans invest in a 401k. More importantly the average is about 8% of pre-tax money invested, which means the average American is barely noticing a 401k deduction. What they are noticing is employers like yourself who think all of your employees make too much money, so you don't cover their healthcare anymore, which adds hundreds or thousands to their monthly expenses, and tens of thousands if they have a medical emergency because of the deductibles and out of pockets.

 

Anyway, that is off-topic. Other factors I've considered. Does daylight savings help or hurt golf? What role will global warming play? If hundreds or thousands more courses contract, will that raise or lower prices elsewhere?

 

That's right, you think?? What you guess has no bearing on how any north American company operatives, much less mine; which has been profitable every year since the 80's. So you know facts are different from opinions and ideals; we provide a wide assortment of HR related services to Fortune 1000 clients, which includes salary and 401k admin, etc. Best put your assumptions where they belong, the nearest trash receptacle. You are right about one thing though, trash is off topic. Have a good day.

 

Their weren't any opinions in my statement. I simply gathered data from the census bureau and the national labor board. Congratulations on your company being profitable. You seem like a real pleasant fella to work for.

[HatsForBats]

OK you got me. For the tennis analogy I reached a bit, although back in the day I spent stupidly on tennis. Still, my main point is that there are plenty of comparable (more or less) sports that are 'fringe' sports and have reached equilibrium and are never going to 'die'.

 

Agree there are some recreational sports that are comparable but not nearly as many as people in this thread are trying to make it sound.

 

I can get into soccer, basketball, softball, tennis, cycling, running, swimming (if near an Ocean), hiking etc. on the cheap. Once you start talking something like a triathlon that is way beyond recreational. Once you have to pay for the use of land, building and/or overhead the price is going to be much more substantial than sports you can participate in without having to pay for those things. In general golf is definitely more expensive than a lot of sports but that isn't a reason for panic IMO.

[Golfnuck]

Fair points... however, I'm still on the skeptical side. The other thing working against golf is the gradual decline of resources, mainly land and water. These will become more expensive and golfers will be the one's paying more.

 

I agree that golf is going to be pressured by the availability of land and water.

 

Our course consists of 176 acres.

 

Based on an average of 7 groups per hour and 7 hours of available tee times to play full rounds the maximum number of golfers able to play a complete round is 196 per day..

 

The utility per sq footage of land is terrible and probably as bad or worse than skiing.

 

We are fortunate at my club as the members own the land and we have our own wells for water supply.

[thug the bunny]

OK you got me. For the tennis analogy I reached a bit, although back in the day I spent stupidly on tennis. Still, my main point is that there are plenty of comparable (more or less) sports that are 'fringe' sports and have reached equilibrium and are never going to 'die'.

 

Agree there are some recreational sports that are comparable but not nearly as many as people in this thread are trying to make it sound.

 

I can get into soccer, basketball, softball, tennis, cycling, running, swimming (if near an Ocean), hiking etc. on the cheap. Once you start talking something like a triathlon that is way beyond recreational. Once you have to pay for the use of land, building and/or overhead the price is going to be much more substantial than sports you can participate in without having to pay for those things. In general golf is definitely more expensive than a lot of sports but that isn't a reason for panic IMO.

 

For the second time take cycling and hiking off your list of cheap sports.

 

And, as a retort, when I was a grunt making $10/hr at my first 'real' job in a laboratory after graduating with a BS in chemistry 30 yrs ago, I played every week or more at a goat track with my Northwestern clubs and my top flite or molitor balls for $10 per round, and I was hooked. Even as a borderline poverty case I was playing every week, so I don't buy the expensive crap.

[raynorfan1]

OK you got me. For the tennis analogy I reached a bit, although back in the day I spent stupidly on tennis. Still, my main point is that there are plenty of comparable (more or less) sports that are 'fringe' sports and have reached equilibrium and are never going to 'die'.

 

Agree there are some recreational sports that are comparable but not nearly as many as people in this thread are trying to make it sound.

 

I can get into soccer, basketball, softball, tennis, cycling, running, swimming (if near an Ocean), hiking etc. on the cheap. Once you start talking something like a triathlon that is way beyond recreational. Once you have to pay for the use of land, building and/or overhead the price is going to be much more substantial than sports you can participate in without having to pay for those things. In general golf is definitely more expensive than a lot of sports but that isn't a reason for panic IMO.

 

For the second time take cycling and hiking off your list of cheap sports.

 

And, as a retort, when I was a grunt making $10/hr at my first 'real' job in a laboratory after graduating with a BS in chemistry 30 yrs ago, I played every week or more at a goat track with my Northwestern clubs and my top flite or molitor balls for $10 per round, and I was hooked. Even as a borderline poverty case I was playing every week, so I don't buy the expensive crap.

 

People look at cycling and don't see the high fixed costs (a functional bike is more dollars than a set of clubs) or the variable costs (tires/tubes/clothing etc.).

 

I actually think that competitive cycling and golf (including private club dues) are pretty comparable from an annual cash outlay perspective. Golf equipment is much cheaper. But cycling doesn't have the dues element (except for entry fees).

[marmooskapaul]

You're all nuts...bass fishing is the ultimate cash cow!!

[thug the bunny]

You're all nuts...bass fishing is the ultimate cash cow!!

 

Don't even get me started about fishing. I have an Avet casting reel and Loomis rod that cost me as much as my driver, irons, and wedges combined. And I have 3 other outfits as well. Add in the costs of line, bait, and lures. And, I complain constantly while I'm fishing about how long it is taking. As soon as I get to a spot I start saying 'I just want to get back home'. And then my buddies punch me in the face and I say 'Oh, sorry, I thought we were playing golf'.

[HatsForBats]

For the second time take cycling and hiking off your list of cheap sports.

 

And, as a retort, when I was a grunt making $10/hr at my first 'real' job in a laboratory after graduating with a BS in chemistry 30 yrs ago, I played every week or more at a goat track with my Northwestern clubs and my top flite or molitor balls for $10 per round, and I was hooked. Even as a borderline poverty case I was playing every week, so I don't buy the expensive crap.

 

Cycling and hiking should not come off the list. While you certainly can spend a lot of money on those sports it is not required to do them recreationally. You don't need to buy the dorky outfits to cycle or need anything beyond a used non-expensive bike to get started or keep going. When young I used to hike for hours most every weekend at my grandmothers home with a bunch of my cousins (I stopped counting at 31 grandkids) and all it cost was wear and tear on our clothing. We would come back and our clothes would usually be very dirty as we would almost always make our way to the coal piles.

 

I agree if there is a will there is a way to play golf on the cheap. Earlier I gave the example of my fathers family growing up very poor and still a few of the brothers found a way to play. However, the cost of playing golf on the cheap is greater than the cost of cheap for many other sports. If you have to pay for the use of the land and overhead it is going to be more expensive. In all of my time playing golf I can't remember ever finding a course that could be played consistently at no cost other than your own equipment. Unless you want to count my parents yard where we used to play 'golf' with plastic balls using large trees as the 'flag sticks'? That wasn't really golf though.

 

Once you get into competitive cycling or buying the latest and greatest hiking gear then you are beyond recreational.

[thug the bunny]

For the second time take cycling and hiking off your list of cheap sports.

 

And, as a retort, when I was a grunt making $10/hr at my first 'real' job in a laboratory after graduating with a BS in chemistry 30 yrs ago, I played every week or more at a goat track with my Northwestern clubs and my top flite or molitor balls for $10 per round, and I was hooked. Even as a borderline poverty case I was playing every week, so I don't buy the expensive crap.

 

Cycling and hiking should not come off the list. While you certainly can spend a lot of money on those sports it is not required to do them recreationally. You don't need to buy the dorky outfits to cycle or need anything beyond a used non-expensive bike to get started or keep going. When young I used to hike for hours most every weekend at my grandmothers home with a bunch of my cousins (I stopped counting at 31 grandkids) and all it cost was wear and tear on our clothing. We would come back and our clothes would usually be very dirty as we would almost always make our way to the coal piles.

 

I agree if there is a will there is a way to play golf on the cheap. Earlier I gave the example of my fathers family growing up very poor and still a few of the brothers found a way to play. However, the cost of playing golf on the cheap is greater than the cost of cheap for many other sports. If you have to pay for the use of the land and overhead it is going to be more expensive. In all of my time playing golf I can't remember ever finding a course that could be played consistently at no cost other than your own equipment. Unless you want to count my parents yard where we used to play 'golf' with plastic balls using large trees as the 'flag sticks'? That wasn't really golf though.

 

Once you get into competitive cycling or buying the latest and greatest hiking gear then you are beyond recreational.

 

Pedaling around town on a fat tire huffy is not cycling. It's going for a bike ride. Going down a trail for a few miles is not hiking. It's walking.

 

Whereas, playing 18, goat track or not, is real golf.

 

Look, let's rewind. Those of us who are using analogies are just trying to point out that there are plenty of other activities that are time consuming and expensive, and their industries are flourishing (mainly because they stay within the market's limits). Can you really argue with me on that basic point? Golf is an activity that is fun, engaging, and has many great and unique aspects to it, and for these reasons it will never go away. Yes it can be expensive and time consuming, which is why I just try to point out other activities that are expensive and time consuming.

 

I have always hated these 'golf is going to disappear' threads and only respond to add some balance and perspective, but you know what, I think I'm done with this topic going forward. It's just stupid.

 

Ciao!