Hogan's Mystique

[BullBear]

[atursky]

BullBear is back

[GolfNutRiblick]

Could watch that video all day long. Sweet swing. Thx for posting this BullBear!

[OldTom]

I am a big Hogan fan. I just read a Golf Digest article on the very well respected teacher John Jacobs. Interesting opinion on Hogan's swing and the results of trying to copy it.

 

Part of the interview mentioning Hogan:

 

In Jacobs' opinion, Ben Hogan "misdirected" the evolution of the golf swing with his book, The Modern Fundamentals of Golf. "The title was wrong," says Jacobs. "It should have been, How I Play Golf, by Ben Hogan. It was a book about how to cure a hook. It promoted a very weak grip. The words 'supination' and 'pronation' confused a lot of people. And the picture of Hogan halfway down with the shaft almost hitting his right shoulder caused people to try to produce an artificially late hit. At Sandy Lodge, all the women bought it for Christmas, and all it got them was a 50-yard fan-slice. Hogan kept me in business."

 

Full interview if interest: https://www.golfdigest.com/story/john-jacobs

[Andrew Bond of Glencoe]

Couldn’t agree more that Hogan’s promoted swing caused more people to slice. I have said this before, but I would have titled the book: “How not to Hook.”

 

The Hogan Mystique was bigger than the man. The Hogan secret was more practice.

 

If Hogan was a tour player today he would be unlikable. People give Tiger crap for his behavior on the golf course but Hogan off of it was considered by most a dick. That would not play well with 24hr news cycles.

 

[dlygrisse]

The pictures in the book don’t always show reality. For example his grip wasn’t really that weak. And his arms weren’t bound together, in fact just the opposite.

 

Where it really drops the ball is explaining that some of the positions Hogan gets in are because of his physique and athletic ability, not because they are fundamentals.

 

If you are 5’8” tall, weigh around 140 lbs and have long arms,short torso,and are very strong and flexible relative to your size it’s a great book.

 

Hogan was truly a great ball striker and a great player of the game, no denying that.

[dlygrisse]

The other thing to keep in mind was is that his swing was at its best right before the accident. After the accident there were compensations in what he did because of his injuries.

 

The footage the year before the accident is the swing Hogan used when he claims he played his best golf.

 

Personally I think Hogan was great but if you want a classic swing to study then watch Sneed. Hogan was mentally tougher but Sneed still has the best swing in my opinion.

[elwhippy]

Our Pro got a copy of the Hogan book and tried to emulate the swing. He started topping the ball. He said it was too specific to playing a certain type of golf and useless to the modern game. One of our elder members had the privilege of watching Hogan at Carnoustie in 1953. He said it was amazing to watch him, almost surgical Golf. However the downside was he never acknowledged his playing partners and didn't compliment their good shots. A real loner.

[Andrew Bond of Glencoe]

I think a great comparison for Hogan is Sandy Koufax. Both struggled early in their careers and then found a solution that showed their brilliance over a short period of time.

 

Here are a couple of things people overlook.

 

-> Hogan couldn’t win majors in the first half of his career. He suffered from the hooks and through work and determination found a solution. He wasn’t the natural that Nelson and Snead were at the game.

 

-> The crash effected Hogan for sure but it likely didn’t cost him any majors after 1953. Hogan was in his 40s and no one back in those days won majors in their 40s.

 

-> People like to also say it as if it was a guarantee that Hogan would have won the PGA in 1953. Hogan played the Open because the odds were in his favor over match play which was how the PGA Championship was won back then.

 

-> Hogan’s 1953 was amazing...but most people also forget that he never won a major after 1953.

 

-> One of my favorites. I hear people say that the greatest shot ever hit was Hogan’s 1 iron at Merion. That is a ridiculous statement. It may be the greatest golf photo of all-time, but Hogan’s 1 iron (which back then had the loft of a modern day 3 iron) was hit to a distance of 30 feet from the pin. Hogan then two putted. Surely not better than a ton of shots before and since.

 

Hogan was an all-time great. One of the Top 5-7 players that ever lived. I do not mean to deflate his legacy, but Hogan’s Secret has become more myth than reality.

[farmer]

Well, now I'm going to dig my Jacob's book out of the cabinet.

[Bigarch]

I am a big Hogan fan. I just read a Golf Digest article on the very well respected teacher John Jacobs. Interesting opinion on Hogan's swing and the results of trying to copy it.

 

Part of the interview mentioning Hogan:

 

In Jacobs' opinion, Ben Hogan "misdirected" the evolution of the golf swing with his book, The Modern Fundamentals of Golf. "The title was wrong," says Jacobs. "It should have been, How I Play Golf, by Ben Hogan. It was a book about how to cure a hook. It promoted a very weak grip. The words 'supination' and 'pronation' confused a lot of people. And the picture of Hogan halfway down with the shaft almost hitting his right shoulder caused people to try to produce an artificially late hit. At Sandy Lodge, all the women bought it for Christmas, and all it got them was a 50-yard fan-slice. Hogan kept me in business."

 

Full interview if interest: https://www.golfdige...ory/john-jacobs

 

Good stuff!

 

I know a lot of people think Ben Hogan's 5 Lessons is a great book, but Jacob's Practical Golf is the best golf instruction book EVER written in my mind.

[dave willie]

It might not work for everyone, but there's a lot to like in the elements of Hogan's swing. I'm 5'8" and fight a hook at times, so there's definitely a lot that I can copy.

[dlygrisse]

I think a great comparison for Hogan is Sandy Koufax. Both struggled early in their careers and then found a solution that showed their brilliance over a short period of time.

 

Here are a couple of things people overlook.

 

-> Hogan couldn’t win majors in the first half of his career. He suffered from the hooks and through work and determination found a solution. He wasn’t the natural that Nelson and Snead were at the game.

 

-> The crash effected Hogan for sure but it likely didn’t cost him any majors after 1953. Hogan was in his 40s and no one back in those days won majors in their 40s.

 

-> People like to also say it as if it was a guarantee that Hogan would have won the PGA in 1953. Hogan played the Open because the odds were in his favor over match play which was how the PGA Championship was won back then.

 

-> Hogan’s 1953 was amazing...but most people also forget that he never won a major after 1953.

 

-> One of my favorites. I hear people say that the greatest shot ever hit was Hogan’s 1 iron at Merion. That is a ridiculous statement. It may be the greatest golf photo of all-time, but Hogan’s 1 iron (which back then had the loft of a modern day 3 iron) was hit to a distance of 30 feet from the pin. Hogan then two putted. Surely not better than a ton of shots before and since.

 

Hogan was an all-time great. One of the Top 5-7 players that ever lived. I do not mean to deflate his legacy, but Hogan’s Secret has become more myth than reality.

 

Good points.

 

I don’t think Hogan was too locked in after 1953. He knew his days were numbered and he could never replicate what he did. He started his equipment company soon after and I think his focus was more on that. Plus his putting was falling apart.

[db2]

I think Hogan's great success after his accident causes people to underestimate how seriously he got hurt and how these injuries hurt his subsequent career. But there is no doubt that he was never the same physically and that the injuries caused him to retire prematurely. I think that if the accident had never happened he would be considered the greatest to ever play the game.

[powerfade66]

Couldn't agree more that Hogan's promoted swing caused more people to slice. I have said this before, but I would have titled the book: "How not to Hook."

 

The Hogan Mystique was bigger than the man. The Hogan secret was more practice.

 

If Hogan was a tour player today he would be unlikable. People give Tiger crap for his behavior on the golf course but Hogan off of it was considered by most a dick. That would not play well with 24hr news cycles.

 

"Hogan off of it was considered by most a dick". That's a big statement about one of the legends of the game. Do you have anything to back it up?

[dave willie]

Couldn't agree more that Hogan's promoted swing caused more people to slice. I have said this before, but I would have titled the book: "How not to Hook."

 

The Hogan Mystique was bigger than the man. The Hogan secret was more practice.

 

If Hogan was a tour player today he would be unlikable. People give Tiger crap for his behavior on the golf course but Hogan off of it was considered by most a dick. That would not play well with 24hr news cycles.

 

"Hogan off of it was considered by most a dick". That's a big statement about one of the legends of the game. Do you have anything to back it up?

Couldn't agree more that Hogan's promoted swing caused more people to slice. I have said this before, but I would have titled the book: "How not to Hook."

 

The Hogan Mystique was bigger than the man. The Hogan secret was more practice.

 

If Hogan was a tour player today he would be unlikable. People give Tiger crap for his behavior on the golf course but Hogan off of it was considered by most a dick. That would not play well with 24hr news cycles.

 

"Hogan off of it was considered by most a dick". That's a big statement about one of the legends of the game. Do you have anything to back it up?

Calling Hogan a name is quite rude considering his accomplishments and stature in the game. Our President sets a bad example in that regard. I've read in many places that Hogan was secretive and standoffish, and I can't think of any current star player who is similar. It was a different time in the 1950's - Hogan and

Ted Williams could refuse to talk to the press and get away with it. It would not work well in today's instant news all the time environment.

[Chris122]

"was considered by most a dick".......he would probably have thought very highly of you too.

[Bigarch]

Not going to slander the great Ben Hogan, but he did have a history of at least acting like a "d**k" on quite a few occasions. Just a couple of the most memorable ones that I can think of:

• In 1960, questioning people at the Masters why they had invited Arnold Palmer...who he didn't think was worthy of playing in the field. Palmer won.
  
• Another one I have heard and seen several times but can't find at the moment, where he said something to the effect of...'I played with a kid today who, if he had a brain in his head, should have won by 10 strokes'.. I think it was the 1960 Open that Palmer won and Nicklaus played in as an amateur. But not totally sure of the place or the exact quote.
  
• Getting a phone call from Gary Player asking for a favor and being told, "Call Mr. Dunlop". Because Player had just signed an equipment contract with Dunlop instead of Hogan's golf club company.
  

[Sean2]

He was human, and as such he was flawed. I think this entire mystique thing surrounding Hogan anthropomorphizes him to a degree that doesn't truly reflect the man he actually was.

[Chris122]

The 'mystique' thing has been overblown,he just worked tremendously hard to try to perfect his game.

The other factors are that he was a complex personality,brutally honest with himself and others,the subject of a great deal of envy and almost inevitably the target of the knockers who exist in every sport whose wish is to somehow diminish a man's reputation.

Many of the Hogan stories are apocryphal in that they start with 'I think he said' or 'he said something like',rarely do you have an exact quote and even then the black and white text does not convey the manner in which it was spoken or the immediate context of the conversation.

Gary Player called Ben Hogan for a free lesson over the phone,which is hardly professional conduct and says more about Player's self-importance than Hogan's bluntness.

Nick Faldo had a face to face chat with Hogan and asked him how he could win the US Open,Hogan told him that he had to shoot a lower score than the rest of the field.

Rude or honest?

I like to accept Ben Hogan for his positives,someone who epitomised the qualities of hard work,integrity and self-reliance whilst valuing his home life and privacy.

[mickeytbones]

One also remember that Ben Hogan, at the age of 9, witnessed his father commit suicide.

 

That had to effect the man that Ben became. Me? I admire the man. He accomplished what he set out to do.

[stevehj]

Not going to slander the great Ben Hogan, but he did have a history of at least acting like a "d**k" on quite a few occasions. Just a couple of the most memorable ones that I can think of:

• In 1960, questioning people at the Masters why they had invited Arnold Palmer...who he didn't think was worthy of playing in the field. Palmer won.
  
• Another one I have heard and seen several times but can't find at the moment, where he said something to the effect of...'I played with a kid today who, if he had a brain in his head, should have won by 10 strokes'.. I think it was the 1960 Open that Palmer won and Nicklaus played in as an amateur. But not totally sure of the place or the exact quote.
  
• Getting a phone call from Gary Player asking for a favor and being told, "Call Mr. Dunlop". Because Player had just signed an equipment contract with Dunlop instead of Hogan's golf club company.
  

 

 

Considering Palmer won the Masters in 1958. I find it hard to believe Hogan would have asked why he was playing in 1960. Maybe your dates are off?

[dlygrisse]

Not going to slander the great Ben Hogan, but he did have a history of at least acting like a "d**k" on quite a few occasions. Just a couple of the most memorable ones that I can think of:

• In 1960, questioning people at the Masters why they had invited Arnold Palmer...who he didn't think was worthy of playing in the field. Palmer won.
  
• Another one I have heard and seen several times but can't find at the moment, where he said something to the effect of...'I played with a kid today who, if he had a brain in his head, should have won by 10 strokes'.. I think it was the 1960 Open that Palmer won and Nicklaus played in as an amateur. But not totally sure of the place or the exact quote.
  
• Getting a phone call from Gary Player asking for a favor and being told, "Call Mr. Dunlop". Because Player had just signed an equipment contract with Dunlop instead of Hogan's golf club company.
  

 

Cherry Hills comments about Jack were true and Jack tells the story often. He said he learned a lot playing with Hogan. Hogan was actually praising Jacks talent.

[Andrew Bond of Glencoe]

I think Hogan's great success after his accident causes people to underestimate how seriously he got hurt and how these injuries hurt his subsequent career. But there is no doubt that he was never the same physically and that the injuries caused him to retire prematurely. I think that if the accident had never happened he would be considered the greatest to ever play the game.

 

Retire? No he kept playing...nearly won in 1960.

[Andrew Bond of Glencoe]

There are a ton of stories about Hogan being a “jerk” if that makes you feel any better about it. We glamorize those we look up to, but he could be quite rude to just about everyone.

 

He was Bill Belichick before Bill Belichick.

 

The people that make him out to be a God-like figure are fanatics. Half of these people don’t think he missed a fairway in his last 7 years.

 

Someone mentioned that if it weren’t for the accident he would have more majors than anyone? Dude check your timelines. Look at how old he was when he started winning and again look at how old he was in 1953. The fact is, Hogan took too long to find his swing- which is why he is more Sandy Koufax than Babe Ruth.

 

For a period of time he was the best in the world and he is likely one of the Top 5-10 golfers in history—-but you can make arguments either way. Take Harry Vardon’s 7 majors in a time when the PGA and Masters didn’t exist. He only played in 2 US Opens during his prime and won one and went to a playoff in the other. Are Hogan’s 9 majors better than Vardon’s 7? Questionable at the very least. Jones wins 13 majors and retires at 27. Hagen won 11 majors without ever playing a Masters in his prime- he played in the Open pretty much every other year and prior to the Masters the Western Open was considered a major and he won that 5 times which would give him 16 majors.

 

Hogan is an all-time great...his brilliance while short was red hot.

[BeerPerHole]

When I first started playing golf about 20 years ago I read a biography on Hogan. It was a great read and did give me some insight on the man. He had a very tough childhood. In his adult life he "didn't suffer fools well". I can relate, and it's something I battle (I'm a fool sometimes, too). When I start to get p*ssed at somebody I remember the story of Hogan, after receiving a poorly cooked steak, marched back into the kitchen of a restaurant to look over the cook's shoulder to guide him in the proper way to get it done. Always makes me smile. Also, Hogan's condition after the accident with the bus was awful. In recovery, he'd walk out the front door of his house, get around the corner and not be able to walk home. He'd just sit on the curb until his wife would come looking for him in the car.

 

Soon after I took up golf I used to play with a guy who said that one theory is that "5 Lessons' was a bit of a misdirection on the part of Hogan. Power Golf, according to him, was the honest effort by Hogan. I don't know. I think 5 Lessons is great. Both books are.

 

My son, all who've worked with him will say, has some real natural golf ability. I don't try to teach him very much - leaving that up to the pros. But, I have emphasized with him the importance of bracing on the back leg, vs swaying. In that video clip you can actually see Hogan's hips sliding forward a few inches as he reaches the top of his swing. What a beautiful motion.

[xgolfx]

Ben Hogan, in my opinion was a result of his background. A caddie who watched his father commit suicide. He was a loner and trusted very few people. The home he built had only one bedroom. Charley Coe told me this story.

 

Charley had played an exhibition with Hogan in Oklahoma. Coe was having dinner after the round when Hogan called and told him to come to his hotel. When he knocked on the door of the room, Ben told him to come in. He was soaking in the bathtub and told Coe to sit on the toilet. Charley didn’t tell me the details, but said they talked for an hour. He said that he helped Ben with advice about finances.

 

I have related the story about Coe and Ben playing at Augusta elsewhere. The only verbal exchange during the round was,”nice shot” twice and “got a cigarette” once. Ben beat Charley by a couple shots even though Coe was under par. While Coe was changing his shoes in the locker room ,Hogan tapped him on the shoulder and said,”Charley, that was a very enjoyable round. Let’s play a practice round at the Open”.

 

I think Hogan did not like match play. He never beat Snead head to head. In playoffs. I think he also had a losing match record against Byron Nelson. He felt a hot putter could beat him over 18 holes.

 

CHARLEY PENNA

[Andrew Bond of Glencoe]

Where is the Byron Nelson mystique? Hogan never beat Byron? Byron’s swing was as close to perfection by modern standards- hell Iron Byron was designed around his swing.

 

He played just enough golf to buy his ranch and walked away from the game. Hogan was often upset that Byron could not practice and then go out and win a major. Why don’t we worship his swing? Why don’t we talk about his secret?

 

Hogan without a doubt is a Top 5 of all-time player, but we overlook the genius of Byron. Byron taught Tom Watson and his swing held up against Nicklaus.

 

[Kirasdad]

We simplify things a bit too much. Words like dick or jerk can be applied to almost all of us at our worst. One hopes we are not at our worst often enough to be labeled as such. A fairer view was that Hogan was complicated. He seemed suspicious of people, especially if he sensed someone wanted something from him, particularly if it wasn’t coming from Hogan himself. Hence the Faldo and Gary Player stories. Someone like Arnold would have handled those queries completely differently, giving Faldo, for instance, a thought or suggestion like “play conservatively, hit 3 wood off the tee more often, and play to the fat part of the green” something generic and charming, followed up by “oh and shoot lower than everyone else” and everyone who heard that would laugh and say Arnie was a great guy. Which he was, but he also had the socially comfortable, people person gifts that Hogan simply didn’t possess. Probably one of the reasons he didn’t like Palmer very much. Hogan had an active dislike for Palmer that the younger man could never figure out, but is pretty obvious in hindsight. Hogan resented Palmer’s grace and popularity.

 

Hogan could be quite generous but it seemed it had to come from him, on his terms. He worked diligently with Chris Tschetter, early in her career, and as far as I can discern didn’t even charge her for it, but the idea came from him, not her.

 

This from a book about their relationship:

“Maybe it was Tschetter’s work ethic, or maybe just her youthful enthusiasm, but Hogan noticed her practicing and offered to help her with her swing.”

 

The key phrase being “Hogan...offered to help her...”

[rex235]

Charley-

 

+1

 

"I think Hogan did not like match play. He never beat Snead head to head. In playoffs. I think he also had a losing match record against Byron Nelson. He felt a hot putter could beat him over 18 holes."

 

..and it did ...at the 1955 US Open at Olympic GC, where Jack Fleck, using a Bullseye putter, plus new Ben Hogan irons Ben had personally delivered to him, beats Hogan in an 18 hole playoff.

 

To my knowledge, Hogan always had a kind word for Fleck.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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