Playing golf in Vancouver Canada (NO POLITICS!)

[myspinonit]

15 minutes ago, IcemanYVR said:

Is there anywhere in the Vancouver/GVRD that has a chipping/practice area that's actually open? Ideally with a practice bunker and the ability to hit proper chip shots. Willing to drive a little bit.

Have you tried phoning Burnaby Mountain and Riverway?  Not sure if Bby Mtn has  a bunker but Riverway does by the chipping area.

[KBong]

39 minutes ago, myspinonit said:

Have you tried phoning Burnaby Mountain and Riverway?  Not sure if Bby Mtn has  a bunker but Riverway does by the chipping area.

Bby Mtn has a bunker....the practice area can get quite busy.

[KBong]

2 hours ago, The Beav said:

All of that said, Northview as a business is a disgrace.  Awful policies.  Rude staff.  Useless marshalls.  Even checking in there prior to a round is a chore.  $125/round in the summer and I still need to pay $15 for 50 range balls? GTFO. 

LMAO

That's why I haven't played there for years.

 

50 range balls at Bby Mtn = $6 including tax.

[IcemanYVR]

7 hours ago, myspinonit said:

Have you tried phoning Burnaby Mountain and Riverway?  Not sure if Bby Mtn has  a bunker but Riverway does by the chipping area.

 

I ended up going to Burnaby Mountain. They have a decent range (with some type of launch monitor available), but a full short game practice area. Separate bunker with it's own green as well as a massive chipping green where you can easily hit 30-40 yard pitch shots if it isn't busy.

[Phireside]

11 hours ago, IcemanYVR said:

Is there anywhere in the Vancouver/GVRD that has a chipping/practice area that's actually open? Ideally with a practice bunker and the ability to hit proper chip shots. Willing to drive a little bit.

Morgan. Green side chipping, nothing too long. And a bunker. 

[KBong]

8 hours ago, IcemanYVR said:

 

I ended up going to Burnaby Mountain. They have a decent range (with some type of launch monitor available), 

I think they installed them 5+ years ago...I think I've only seen them used once or twice when they were 1st installed....they don't provide much data.

I'm not sure if they are functional now as I've yet to see them in use in the past few years.

[Phireside]

On 3/4/2022 at 7:39 AM, IcemanYVR said:

Is there anywhere in the Vancouver/GVRD that has a chipping/practice area that's actually open? Ideally with a practice bunker and the ability to hit proper chip shots. Willing to drive a little bit.

Forgot about Kings. Was just there today. Large chipping area and two bunkers. One small pot style.

[Golfnuck]

Apologize in advance for those that may be offended by my posting of pictures from a private club.

 

This is from Shaughnessy and I am not a member there just lucky if my friends invite me every once in a while.

 

This is the chipping area to the right on your way to the driving range. 

 

 

 

Main driving range.   Pro-V practice balls of course.

 

 

Short game targets.  This is the right side of the main range.

 

 

The biggest bunker practice area in the lower mainland.  A semi circular bunker with targets.  On one side it can be used to chip onto.  I rarely use this to warm up because it faces into the main driving range and I do not want to "hit one clean" and kill one of the members using the range.

 

 

They usually have a staff member clean your clubs with a wet towel when you are on the range.

 

It is going to be a real shame when this is gone.

 

 

Edited March 6, 2022 by Golfnuck

[IcemanYVR]

5 minutes ago, Golfnuck said:

Apologize in advance for those that may be offended by my posting of pictures from a private club.

 

This is from Shaughnessy and I am not a member there just lucky if my friends invite me every once in a while.

 

This is the chipping area to the right on your way to the driving range. 

 

 

 

Main driving range.   Pro-V practice balls of course.

 

 

Short game targets.  This is the right side of the main range.

 

 

The biggest bunker practice area in the lower mainland.  A semi circular bunker with targets.  On one side it can be used to chip onto.  I rarely use this to warm up because it faces into the main driving range and I do not want to "hit one clean" and kill one of the members using the range.

 

 

They usually have a staff member clean your clubs with a wet towel when you are on the range.

 

It is going to be a real shame when this is gone.

 

 

Not offended at all. Just sad this institution is being turned into housing. Do you know when the course will be closing and what the membership plans to do?

[myspinonit]

17 minutes ago, IcemanYVR said:

Not offended at all. Just sad this institution is being turned into housing. Do you know when the course will be closing and what the membership plans to do?

The lease to Musqueum ends in 2032…..that’s all I know. 

[Golfnuck]

26 minutes ago, IcemanYVR said:

Not offended at all. Just sad this institution is being turned into housing. Do you know when the course will be closing and what the membership plans to do?

 

2033 is the end of the lease.

 

My buddy keeps on telling me that they will extend the lease etc etc.  I think he is dreaming.

[myspinonit]

3 hours ago, Golfnuck said:

 

2033 is the end of the lease.

 

My buddy keeps on telling me that they will extend the lease etc etc.  I think he is dreaming.

Ok, thanks.  I thought it was at the end of 2032, so it ends sometime in 2033.

 

To get back to Iceman's question, unlikely it will stay a course after that. As A result of a Supreme Court decision in 2016, the Musqueum lost its bid to have the course being assessed for taxes as if it was residential land, not a golf course- losing their ability to collect more from the golf club.  I can't see them renewing the lease  with real estate values.

 

Where the members go is indeed the question and there has been lots of that speculation, especially (pubicly at least) in the last fifteen years. Some history as I understand it and checking with Google:

 

In 2008 the Musqueum through settlement with the Province  attained  University Golf Course land, but agreed to keep it a "golf course" until 2083. Later review of that document didn't stipulate it was necessarily a public golf course. That  led to much speculation (and concern from University players) that the Shaughnessy Club would regroup there.  More history: Jack MacLaughlan, the former pro at Shaughnessy, was one of the original group that got a 25 year lease for the revamp of University course in the early 80's including building the current clubhouse in 1985. That was seen by some at the time as a possible hedge bet for a Shaughnessy transition later.   That clubhouse and weddings, tournaments that are tied into banquet dinners has been a huge $ windfall, or at least until Covid. I've heard it said worth 25 grand for some tournaments  so I'm in no way convinced leasing it to Shaughnessy  would be viewed as beneficial $-wise if public golf interest continues.

 

Shaughnessy bought Greenacres in Richmond and an adjacent parcel designated as farmland  as a hedge bet.  That parcel as far as I know is still designated farmland. In today's climate I'd see that rezoned as residential if anything.

 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2022 by myspinonit

[KBong]

3 hours ago, Golfnuck said:

1) Apologize in advance for those that may be offended by my posting of pictures from a private club.

 

2) This is from Shaughnessy and I am not a member there just lucky if my friends invite me every once in a while.

 

LMAO

1) Classic PASSIVE BRAG🤣

But most WRX passive brags are about 340 yard drives and 210 yard 7 irons and not the lifestyles of the rich & famous.

 

2) Rumors are you have a monthly rota of Marine Drive, Point Grey, Shaughnessy, Cap and VGC with your Bentley driving golf pals.🤣

 

Yes, the Shaughnessy has the best driving range in the GVRD.

 

The CWO is coming in 2023....I wonder if Golf Canada is in talks with Shaughnessy to host the Cdn Open one last time before 2032.

Yes, the boys are hitting it longer

BUT

With pinched in fairways and juicy thick rough...the winning CO scores in 2005 and 2011 were -5 & -4.

[KBong]

On 3/6/2022 at 10:32 AM, myspinonit said:

Shaughnessy bought Greenacres in Richmond and an adjacent parcel designated as farmland  as a hedge bet.  That parcel as far as I know is still designated farmland. In today's climate I'd see that rezoned as residential if anything.

 

Others will know better.

Rumor is the land adjacent to Green Acres was sold for a profit of $30-$40M?????

 

So will ALL the Shaughnessy members fair share in any equity left in the balance sheet come 2033?

 

From what I read....York Downs in Toronto was sold and ALL members will receive $200000+ including all deceased members...with payment made to their estates.

 

Beacon Hall is for sale and getting closer to sales finalization???

Edited March 8, 2022 by KBong

[IcemanYVR]

@myspinonitthanks for the very thorough explanation. I knew they had purchased Green Acres, but that course could never be anything special without the purchase of additional land. Which, if I understand you correctly, they had also purchased, but subsequently sold?

 

It's always sad to lose golf course, in the city where I grew up the four courses closest to my house have all been torn up for housing.

[myspinonit]

24 minutes ago, IcemanYVR said:

@myspinonitthanks for the very thorough explanation. I knew they had purchased Green Acres, but that course could never be anything special without the purchase of additional land. Which, if I understand you correctly, they had also purchased, but subsequently sold?

 

It's always sad to lose golf course, in the city where I grew up the four courses closest to my house have all been torn up for housing.

I don’t know about the adjacent land being sold but K Bong as usual is plugged in 

 

KB, you should get a gig on ET

Canada lol

[Golfnuck]

1) Classic PASSIVE BRAG🤣

But most WRX passive brags are about 340 yard drives and 210 yard 7 irons and not the lifestyles of the rich & famous.

2) Rumors are you have a monthly rota of Marine Drive, Point Grey, Shaughnessy, Cap and VGC with your Bentley driving golf pals.🤣

 

LOL.  Not really trying to brag but I did get a rather nasty PM from someone admonishing me for posting pictures of the various private clubs as they are not accessible to everyone.

Sorry no Bentley but I do drive a Volkswagen.  At Cap they make me park in the lower lot ...........

 

So will ALL the Shaughnessy members fair share in any equity left in the balance sheet come 2033?

 

Not every member as those that just joined recently under the $25k deal are not equity members.  I suspect they may burn thru the money trying to keep up the course without increasing dues in the last few years.

 

 

[Golfnuck]

Since we are talking about Shaughnessy some more fun facts from their website - https://www.shaughnessy.org/About/History

 

This is the second time the club has faced the end of a lease.

 

The original site was bordered by 33rd and 37th and Granville and Oak.  Part of this site is now the VanDusen Botanical Garden.  They turned down a purchase price of $2M in 1960 which may have been a lot of money back then but that site would be worth well in excess of $1 Billion today and just think they would still be golfing there after 2032 !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Based on an inflation calculator $2M in 1960 is the equivalent of $19M today.  I think that would have been a pretty good deal.

 

myspinonit - you may be correct as the website says the lease expiry is in 2032.  I was quoting my friend who may not be the most knowledgeable as he still thinks there will be an extension.

 

Shaughnessy Heights Golf Course operated on land leased from the CPR. The original term expired in 1928 and was extended a number of times until 1960. The membership had opportunity to buy the land in the late 1960s but determined that the $2 million price tag was too high.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Golfnuck

[Golfnuck]

Just a quick example to support the huge price of real estate had Shaughnessy stayed at their former site.

 

The Oakridge Bus Depot which is only 13 acres sold for $440M !!!!!!!!!

 

I would guess that the old Shaughnessy golf course would occupied approx. 90 to 100 acres given it was 18 holes.

 

Given the Oakridge Bus Depot as a comparable it may be worth over $3,300,000,000 and increasing at 20% a year !!!!!!!!

 

Based on 1,000 members that would be $3.3M per member ....... someone please check over my math as that is way too many zeros.

 

Do you think any of the current members are asking what if?

 

I share this with my buddy at Shaughnessy every chance I get.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Golfnuck

[KBong]

6 hours ago, myspinonit said:

I don’t know about the adjacent land being sold but K Bong as usual is plugged in 

 

KB, you should get a gig on ET

Canada lol

I do know a member at Shaughnessy who is currently away who joined in 2019.

I could ask him to confirm about the adjacent land to Green Acres....but I have a feeling he may not be able to provide an accurate financial position at Shaughnessy. 

 

Of all the public courses in the GVRD....I don't like Green Acres.

In the early 90's in the winter....a work colleague from Toronto was flying back home and wanted to play a Saturday morning rd before heading on the plane.

That was the one and only time I have played Green Acres.

 

I don't know why we didn't play Mayfair....maybe because he had previously played it???

[vancouver81]

On 3/4/2022 at 5:55 AM, The Beav said:

I think The Ridge is one of the best layouts in Vancouver.  I love that the par 5s are reachable with 2 good shots, risk/reward par 4 at #8, beautiful par 3s (except for #9).  Good, tough par 4s.  Straightforward but actually punishes poor shots with well placed hazards/water/bunkers.  It has a ton of "par 4.5s" and I really enjoy that. We always have great matches there because they can swing so fast and easily.  

. 

Canal is fun when it's playing firm and fast with a little wind.  When it's soft, wet, and covered in goose droppings I find it pretty uninspired until the 16-17-18 stretch.  

 

All of that said, Northview as a business is a disgrace.  Awful policies.  Rude staff.  Useless marshalls.  Even checking in there prior to a round is a chore.  $125/round in the summer and I still need to pay $15 for 50 range balls? GTFO. 

Agreed on everything you said. Ridge has a great collection of interesting holes, Canal is fun in the summer and 16-18 is a great closing stretch, but it’s overpriced and the staff/management seem to have a real disdain for the paying customer. Slim pickings tho these days out this way with tee times at Morgan being so hard to come by. 

[KBong]

7 hours ago, Golfnuck said:

LOL.  Not really trying to brag but I did get a rather nasty PM from someone admonishing me for posting pictures of the various private clubs as they are not accessible to everyone.

 

Really???....must be some Pink Shirt WOKE Millennial.🤣

[KBong]

7 hours ago, Golfnuck said:

Sorry no Bentley but I do drive a Volkswagen.  At Cap they make me park in the lower lot ...........

 

LMAO.

[KBong]

7 hours ago, Golfnuck said:

1) Not every member as those that just joined recently under the $25k deal are not equity members. 

 

2) I suspect they may burn thru the money trying to keep up the course without increasing dues in the last few years.

 

 

1) I was not aware....thanks for the info.

 

2) Agree.

[KBong]

I'm not knowledgeable.....I know others are.

 

Is it my understanding that if Shaughnessy after 2032 is used to develop residential houses...that lots can only be sold to members of the Musqueum Indian Band and/or anyone with Indian status.

And can only Indigenous tenants only occupy those homes.

 

And because it's their land...MIB can also decide if they want to commercially develop lots too.

[The Beav]

I've only played Shaughnessy once due to a lucky invite, but it was enough for me to hope it sticks around.  As much as I'll probably never play there again, a city like Vancouver needs to have high/medium/low end options for players.  

[Golfnuck]

So with all this talk of private golf clubs being full and lack of supply in the public golf course world are we going back to the 1990's when I had to sit on the phone every Thursday at lunch to try and get a tee time.

 

The fact that Shaughnessy is likely closing by 2032.

 

Is there demand for additional private and public golf courses?

 

Will clubs like Pitt Meadows survive as a private club?  Will Meadow Gardens, Swaneset etc go fully private again?

 

Will Pagoda Ridge be successful as a private club and will it solve the shortage when Shaughnessy goes off line?

 

I mean there are at least 800 plus members from Shaughnessy that needs a place to go and there are only a few top level clubs for them to go to like Point Grey, Marine, Capilano and maybe Vancouver and Seymour.  As far as I know all of those clubs have long waitlists right now.

 

How did we go from golf is dying to golf is flourishing all in the span of a few years?

 

I have not stayed at a Holiday Inn for a few years so I am not smart enough to have answers.

[KBong]

Just like in the Toronto area....it doesn't make financial sense to build golf courses within 25-30 kms from downtown.

 

Building a new private out in the suburbs doesn't solve the issue for members at Shaughnessy unwilling to drive that far.

Though by 2032....I gotta believe 25+% of the members will no longer be playing golf???

 

IMO....UBC is a good target to convert to a private...if the bylaws will allow.

Who owns UBC?...how long is their lease arrangement?

 

Maybe Mayfair could possibly convert from semi private to private...but many think that the course is too bland.

Would Caleb Chan really make more money going private....I don't think he wants to change his ownership model.

 

Isn't Pitt Meadow sitting on a flood plain and will need a TON of money to reno to make it into TRUE private course conditions.

 

I wonder if the are enough golfers willing to pay $60-$80K to join Meadow or Swaneset if they spent the money to become a premier privates?

 

The owners of Carnousite want to sell...it's a shame they don't open in the winter...though a muck hole...to lessen the winter demand...but it doesn't solve the demand at other times.

Based on it's length....the front 9 is a good challenge from the blue tees.

 

Pagoda is getting a lot of hate with the new changeover...yes supply vs demand...they really are price gouging....someone complained paying $87 this past weekend...shaggy fairways/greens and mats on all the tee blocks.

Pagoda is way out there for many here....$2.099/litre isn't helping.

 

Pagoda has some big challenges ahead if they want to be considered as a premier private.

Supposedly the same ownership group just opened their golf store on Lougheed this past weekend.

I'll have to wait to carpool out there nowadays with the price of gas....none of my friends own a Tesla...lol.

[Golfnuck]

I have my doubts about Pagoda.  Also just based on looking at the website of the new owner I really wonder just how deep their pockets are.

 

If they could throw $80M ($35M on the golf course and range / $45M on clubhouse and other infrastructure) or so at Pagoda they could have a nice private club.

 

What could they charge for an initiation fee and if they use the "equity" model then the monthly dues would have to be quite high as they would have limited access to the initiation fees on the 2nd generation of members so any future capital improvement would be funded by monthly dues.

 

Currently the highest initiation fee is at Capilano which is $105,000.  Would Pagoda out in boonies be able to charge close to that?  I have my doubts.

 

Also it looks like they may be targeting the Koreans as members and if so, they really like their golf and generally play a lot.  So how many members would the club be able to support with a larger than average rounds per year.  I expect they would need to cap all playing membership to 400 or so.

 

That doesn't leave a lot of initiation fees to repay back the upfront capital spend of $80M plus the original acquisition.

 

My bet is that this owner will sell after 5 years, the second owner will sell after 7 years and then maybe the third owner will be successful.

 

Just the crazy ramblings of someone who really has no idea what he is talking about.

[KBong]

1 hour ago, Golfnuck said:

Also it looks like they may be targeting the Koreans as members and if so, they really like their golf and generally play a lot.  So how many members would the club be able to support with a larger than average rounds per year.  I expect they would need to cap all playing membership to 400 or so.

 

As we all have stated.....Pagoda has A LOT of challenges ahead of them...including location, location location....and money.

IMO....the new owners are a bit naïve.

 

I'm not convinced the new golf store on Lougheed will be a big success that specializes in JDM, high end stuff.

Of the JDM clubs I've seen being played here by the Asians...most of those clubs were purchased in Asian were they can be bought cheaper...even rich people like to save money...that's how they became rich.

Many of the Asians that I get paired with have old & lousy clubs.

Actually many golfers that I play golf with have old and lousy clubs.

 

Yes, Koreans LOVE to play golf...but of the many Koreans I have been paired up with....I doubt they are willing to fork over the money to play at a premier private....nor do they possess the proper etiquette to play at a premier private.

I don't believe there are many Koreans living out in the Fraser Valley where it's only a 15-20 minute drive to Pagoda.

 

I also doubt many other golfers of different nationalities would want to join a private club with a majority of Korean members.