Muscle Back "Blade" Irons --- History and Future?

[Nard_S]

On a mishit the difference between a #6i that is CB and one that is MB is roughly 15-18 feet. Not 20 yards but more like 5. A PGA pro might average 30 feet proximity or more with either iron and it's considered great. Delusion of how beneficial CB's MOI is in reality to what user's perceptions are is off the charts.

[dciccoritti]

"Forgiveness" in GI clubs is quantifiable and has been proven. The problem is a lot of anti GI crusaders try to make "forgiveness" to mean it would have to be a miracle club that saves horrendous shots.

 

In reallity all it means is that ball speeds will remain high across a larger area on the face of the club.

 

In the case of some GI and SGI clubs it also means that a ball struck low on the face will still get better height than the same miss with a blade or player's cb.

 

As someone else said, playing blades is not an indicator of skill. Score is the indicator.

 

Speed retention does not mean closer to the hole. Better height does not mean closer to the hole.

 

And 5 to 5.5 degree separation in the scoring irons does not mean further from the hole.

 

If were talking game improvement and scoring it all depends because there are just too many variables to consider.

 

No club has a right to call itself 'game improvement' and there is no science to prove such a thing.

 

And you don't need science to understand that flex face can slightly increase ball speed on an off centre hit. A 4 year old can figure that out so stop stating the pathetically obvious.

 

Game improvement and scoring is a completely other matter.

 

Ever play really well and not have the score reflect it? Ever not play so well and be surprised by your score? Ever hit it slightly heavy and find yourself pin high? Ever hit it flush and find yourself with a 20 footer back down towards the hole? Ever hit the green and 3 putt? Ever miss the green and chip in for birdie?

 

1. Just so I'm clear, you originally said forgiveness (i.e. retention of ball speed on off center hits) was the same between the two. Then rawdog posted several links to Mr. Wishon (among others) stating you were wrong. You are now saying that forgiveness doesn't matter, because random chance can cause a bad shot to be good.

 

I have played bad and shot a good score. That doesn't mean, in the next round I play, I should strive to be bad.

 

You haven't actually refuted anything. I don't know what "science is not big on using the word forgiveness" means. 2. Forgiveness means retaining ball speed on bad strikes. If I hit my 7 175, and I'm 175 out, I hit the 7. If I hit the toe, I'd like it to go as close to 175 as possible. That's forgiveness.

 

GI irons retain ball speed on bad strikes better than blades (as evidenced by the millions of links rawdog posted). Blades let more of your strike "show up" in the ball, for better or worse. If you choose you want the harder club, great. But don't pretend the other club isn't easier. It is. Just look at the material posted by rawdog. If you don't think you need it, great. That's why i keep saying you have the right to play whatever you want, but stop trying to convince rational people it makes sense for people at this skill level to play these clubs (assuming score is your only goal). The links rawdog posted are overwhelmingly convincing.

 

Forgiveness doesn't matter because there's a lot of randomness in golf anyways. el-oh-el.

 

You basically have stockholm syndrome but for a type of iron.

 

1. Show me where I even remotely insinuated that, let alone said it.

 

2. Wrong. Retaining ball speed on off centre strikes is called 'retaining ball speed on off centre strikes'. Face Flex is a design characteristic, not forgiveness. It CAN make a shot better and it CAN make a shot worse in terms of scoring. Would you like me to show you and example of a PING G400 retaining ball speed on a 3/4" toe strike that achieved and undesirable result? Of course not, you'll just brush it off and say it's one in a million.

[BiggErn]

"Forgiveness" in GI clubs is quantifiable and has been proven. The problem is a lot of anti GI crusaders try to make "forgiveness" to mean it would have to be a miracle club that saves horrendous shots.

 

In reallity all it means is that ball speeds will remain high across a larger area on the face of the club.

 

In the case of some GI and SGI clubs it also means that a ball struck low on the face will still get better height than the same miss with a blade or player's cb.

 

As someone else said, playing blades is not an indicator of skill. Score is the indicator.

 

Speed retention does not mean closer to the hole. Better height does not mean closer to the hole.

 

And 5 to 5.5 degree separation in the scoring irons does not mean further from the hole.

 

If were talking game improvement and scoring it all depends because there are just too many variables to consider.

 

No club has a right to call itself 'game improvement' and there is no science to prove such a thing.

 

And you don't need science to understand that flex face can slightly increase ball speed on an off centre hit. A 4 year old can figure that out so stop stating the pathetically obvious.

 

Game improvement and scoring is a completely other matter.

 

Ever play really well and not have the score reflect it? Ever not play so well and be surprised by your score? Ever hit it slightly heavy and find yourself pin high? Ever hit it flush and find yourself with a 20 footer back down towards the hole? Ever hit the green and 3 putt? Ever miss the green and chip in for birdie?

 

Oh and by the way, I'm pretty sure science is not big on using the word 'forgiveness' ;-)

 

Yet manufacturers have the right to call something a "players club" then. How do you quantify that and what does it mean?

 

It's all semantics. Too many people get caught up in a marketing catch word and are incapable of looking at the bigger picture. If I buy a game improvement club that does not guarantee that my game will improve. But I have some bad news for some of the fan boys of "blade" and "player's CB" irons. Just because you have those in your bag does not make you a better player.

 

 

I take from what he says he plays bad golf with whatever so he may as well play what looks cool. It’s too complicated for him to comprehend a slight mishit going as close to the distance as intended is better than a mishit coming up 20 yards short. He tap dances around reality with his absurd “reasoning”.

 

I don't know who's losing 20 yards on mishits. Last night I caught a 9 iron out on the toe that actually carried exactly as far as it should of off the center of the face. Modern MB's are more forgiving than one would think. Certainly more forgiving than I thought they would be. I'll admit, when I bought mine, I fully expected to play a month with them and sell them off as I didn't think I had the game for them. But, I find them to be just as playable as the MP15's I had last year. Obviously, that is just my game though. There is a good deal of mass out to the toe on these things. To lose considerable yardage, I think I'd have to almost miss the ball completely. They just seem to be a good fit for me. I could just as easily play a forged CB and be happy. But, I don't think I'm leaving anything on the table as it stands. Plus, you know, I get the cool factor of having blades in my bag... :beach:

 

 

I’ll give you that short irons aren’t as penal on mishits but I wouldn’t say they are forgiving. I could probably see myself doing a combo set.

[pinestreetgolf]

"Forgiveness" in GI clubs is quantifiable and has been proven. The problem is a lot of anti GI crusaders try to make "forgiveness" to mean it would have to be a miracle club that saves horrendous shots.

 

In reallity all it means is that ball speeds will remain high across a larger area on the face of the club.

 

In the case of some GI and SGI clubs it also means that a ball struck low on the face will still get better height than the same miss with a blade or player's cb.

 

As someone else said, playing blades is not an indicator of skill. Score is the indicator.

 

Speed retention does not mean closer to the hole. Better height does not mean closer to the hole.

 

And 5 to 5.5 degree separation in the scoring irons does not mean further from the hole.

 

If were talking game improvement and scoring it all depends because there are just too many variables to consider.

 

No club has a right to call itself 'game improvement' and there is no science to prove such a thing.

 

And you don't need science to understand that flex face can slightly increase ball speed on an off centre hit. A 4 year old can figure that out so stop stating the pathetically obvious.

 

Game improvement and scoring is a completely other matter.

 

Ever play really well and not have the score reflect it? Ever not play so well and be surprised by your score? Ever hit it slightly heavy and find yourself pin high? Ever hit it flush and find yourself with a 20 footer back down towards the hole? Ever hit the green and 3 putt? Ever miss the green and chip in for birdie?

 

Oh and by the way, I'm pretty sure science is not big on using the word 'forgiveness' ;-)

 

Yet manufacturers have the right to call something a "players club" then. How do you quantify that and what does it mean?

 

It's all semantics. Too many people get caught up in a marketing catch word and are incapable of looking at the bigger picture. If I buy a game improvement club that does not guarantee that my game will improve. But I have some bad news for some of the fan boys of "blade" and "player's CB" irons. Just because you have those in your bag does not make you a better player.

 

 

I take from what he says he plays bad golf with whatever so he may as well play what looks cool. It’s too complicated for him to comprehend a slight mishit going as close to the distance as intended is better than a mishit coming up 20 yards short. He tap dances around reality with his absurd “reasoning”.

 

I don't know who's losing 20 yards on mishits. Last night I caught a 9 iron out on the toe that actually carried exactly as far as it should of off the center of the face. Modern MB's are more forgiving than one would think. Certainly more forgiving than I thought they would be. I'll admit, when I bought mine, I fully expected to play a month with them and sell them off as I didn't think I had the game for them. But, I find them to be just as playable as the MP15's I had last year. Obviously, that is just my game though. There is a good deal of mass out to the toe on these things. To lose considerable yardage, I think I'd have to almost miss the ball completely. They just seem to be a good fit for me. I could just as easily play a forged CB and be happy. But, I don't think I'm leaving anything on the table as it stands. Plus, you know, I get the cool factor of having blades in my bag... :beach:

 

Did you read the material rawdog posted?

 

The amount you lose is dependent on the force of the strike. Deflection = (F / 2K)(x^2+1)

 

where F is force, K is the spring constant, and X is how far away from the center you've hit the ball. In rigid irons (i.e. blades) you see a very smooth deterioration of force as you move from the center to the edge. This is not true with game improvement irons. Its not smooth - you retain way more force on the strike.

 

So you will always lose exactly the same amount - expressed by percent. It may or may not be 20 yards, depending on how hard you hit the ball. But it will always be x% for each iron and each distance from center that you strike the ball.

 

It isn't disputable that game improvement irons maintain ballspeed across the face better than blade irons. It *is* disputable what a particular player should play.

 

Again, we don't really care if you or d-conti plays blades. What we don't like is fiction posted as fact. Blades have some huge upsides (workability, especially in height) but some huge downsides too. When people start talking about magic beans like blades not losing ball speed like SGI/GI or that a human being focuses more when a task is harder (we don't) then we arn't "cavity crusaders".

 

It is overwhelmingly likely that a non-elite player needs forgiveness (please see the article by Mr. Wishon, it is very good and hard to argue with) more than what blades offer. That's why some of us think its silly and vanity for certain guys to rock blades.

[pinestreetgolf]

On a mishit the difference between a #6i that is CB and one that is MB is roughly 15-18 feet. Not 20 yards but more like 5. A PGA pro might average 30 feet proximity or more with either iron and it's considered great. Delusion of how beneficial CB's MOI is in reality to what user's perceptions are is off the charts.

 

Ugh. That isn't how physics works. Its dependent on how hard you swing. "More like 5". No, its a percentage of the force applied to the ball (which also includes less loss given higher loft hence combo sets). Harder swingers lose way more distance on a toe hit than slower swingers.

 

"Roughly 15-18 feet". Where in the world did you get that? For what swing speed? Why is it "rough" ? We can calculate it to as many decimal places as you want given a trackman.

[radiman]

 

 

 

I’ll give you that short irons aren’t as penal on mishits but I wouldn’t say they are forgiving. I could probably see myself doing a combo set.

 

Combo would be a good blend. I still kick around the idea of grabbing a 4, 5, and maybe a 6 in the Z745. But, I don't want to pay almost as much as I did for the irons to get new ones to my spec and it's hard to come by in the same spec that I currently have used.

[pinestreetgolf]

"Forgiveness" in GI clubs is quantifiable and has been proven. The problem is a lot of anti GI crusaders try to make "forgiveness" to mean it would have to be a miracle club that saves horrendous shots.

 

In reallity all it means is that ball speeds will remain high across a larger area on the face of the club.

 

In the case of some GI and SGI clubs it also means that a ball struck low on the face will still get better height than the same miss with a blade or player's cb.

 

As someone else said, playing blades is not an indicator of skill. Score is the indicator.

 

Speed retention does not mean closer to the hole. Better height does not mean closer to the hole.

 

And 5 to 5.5 degree separation in the scoring irons does not mean further from the hole.

 

If were talking game improvement and scoring it all depends because there are just too many variables to consider.

 

No club has a right to call itself 'game improvement' and there is no science to prove such a thing.

 

And you don't need science to understand that flex face can slightly increase ball speed on an off centre hit. A 4 year old can figure that out so stop stating the pathetically obvious.

 

Game improvement and scoring is a completely other matter.

 

Ever play really well and not have the score reflect it? Ever not play so well and be surprised by your score? Ever hit it slightly heavy and find yourself pin high? Ever hit it flush and find yourself with a 20 footer back down towards the hole? Ever hit the green and 3 putt? Ever miss the green and chip in for birdie?

 

1. Just so I'm clear, you originally said forgiveness (i.e. retention of ball speed on off center hits) was the same between the two. Then rawdog posted several links to Mr. Wishon (among others) stating you were wrong. You are now saying that forgiveness doesn't matter, because random chance can cause a bad shot to be good.

 

I have played bad and shot a good score. That doesn't mean, in the next round I play, I should strive to be bad.

 

You haven't actually refuted anything. I don't know what "science is not big on using the word forgiveness" means. 2. Forgiveness means retaining ball speed on bad strikes. If I hit my 7 175, and I'm 175 out, I hit the 7. If I hit the toe, I'd like it to go as close to 175 as possible. That's forgiveness.

 

GI irons retain ball speed on bad strikes better than blades (as evidenced by the millions of links rawdog posted). Blades let more of your strike "show up" in the ball, for better or worse. If you choose you want the harder club, great. But don't pretend the other club isn't easier. It is. Just look at the material posted by rawdog. If you don't think you need it, great. That's why i keep saying you have the right to play whatever you want, but stop trying to convince rational people it makes sense for people at this skill level to play these clubs (assuming score is your only goal). The links rawdog posted are overwhelmingly convincing.

 

Forgiveness doesn't matter because there's a lot of randomness in golf anyways. el-oh-el.

 

You basically have stockholm syndrome but for a type of iron.

 

1. Show me where I even remotely insinuated that, let alone said it.

 

2. Wrong. Retaining ball speed on off centre strikes is called 'retaining ball speed on off centre strikes'. Face Flex is a design characteristic, not forgiveness. It CAN make a shot better and it CAN make a shot worse in terms of scoring. Would you like me to show you and example of a PING G400 retaining ball speed on a 3/4" toe strike that achieved and undesirable result? Of course not, you'll just brush it off and say it's one in a million.

 

Its a design characteristic that results in forgiveness. That GI irons have. These are word games.

 

No, I wouldn't like you to show me that. I'd like you to pick out a blade you like and calculate its deflection for a strike a half centimeter off center then do the same for a G25 and post the two numbers.

[duffer987]

Its a design characteristic that results in forgiveness. That GI irons have. These are word games.

 

No, I wouldn't like you to show me that. I'd like you to pick out a blade you like and calculate its deflection for a strike a half centimeter off center then do the same for a G25 and post the two numbers.

 

The only numbers I've seen in this thread were removed by the person who posted them, when he realised it didn't make his point about how there is no loss in accuracy with an MB versus a non-MB.

[BiggErn]

"Forgiveness" in GI clubs is quantifiable and has been proven. The problem is a lot of anti GI crusaders try to make "forgiveness" to mean it would have to be a miracle club that saves horrendous shots.

 

In reallity all it means is that ball speeds will remain high across a larger area on the face of the club.

 

In the case of some GI and SGI clubs it also means that a ball struck low on the face will still get better height than the same miss with a blade or player's cb.

 

As someone else said, playing blades is not an indicator of skill. Score is the indicator.

 

Speed retention does not mean closer to the hole. Better height does not mean closer to the hole.

 

And 5 to 5.5 degree separation in the scoring irons does not mean further from the hole.

 

If were talking game improvement and scoring it all depends because there are just too many variables to consider.

 

No club has a right to call itself 'game improvement' and there is no science to prove such a thing.

 

And you don't need science to understand that flex face can slightly increase ball speed on an off centre hit. A 4 year old can figure that out so stop stating the pathetically obvious.

 

Game improvement and scoring is a completely other matter.

 

Ever play really well and not have the score reflect it? Ever not play so well and be surprised by your score? Ever hit it slightly heavy and find yourself pin high? Ever hit it flush and find yourself with a 20 footer back down towards the hole? Ever hit the green and 3 putt? Ever miss the green and chip in for birdie?

 

1. Just so I'm clear, you originally said forgiveness (i.e. retention of ball speed on off center hits) was the same between the two. Then rawdog posted several links to Mr. Wishon (among others) stating you were wrong. You are now saying that forgiveness doesn't matter, because random chance can cause a bad shot to be good.

 

I have played bad and shot a good score. That doesn't mean, in the next round I play, I should strive to be bad.

 

You haven't actually refuted anything. I don't know what "science is not big on using the word forgiveness" means. 2. Forgiveness means retaining ball speed on bad strikes. If I hit my 7 175, and I'm 175 out, I hit the 7. If I hit the toe, I'd like it to go as close to 175 as possible. That's forgiveness.

 

GI irons retain ball speed on bad strikes better than blades (as evidenced by the millions of links rawdog posted). Blades let more of your strike "show up" in the ball, for better or worse. If you choose you want the harder club, great. But don't pretend the other club isn't easier. It is. Just look at the material posted by rawdog. If you don't think you need it, great. That's why i keep saying you have the right to play whatever you want, but stop trying to convince rational people it makes sense for people at this skill level to play these clubs (assuming score is your only goal). The links rawdog posted are overwhelmingly convincing.

 

Forgiveness doesn't matter because there's a lot of randomness in golf anyways. el-oh-el.

 

You basically have stockholm syndrome but for a type of iron.

 

1. Show me where I even remotely insinuated that, let alone said it.

 

2. Wrong. Retaining ball speed on off centre strikes is called 'retaining ball speed on off centre strikes'. Face Flex is a design characteristic, not forgiveness. It CAN make a shot better and it CAN make a shot worse in terms of scoring. Would you like me to show you and example of a PING G400 retaining ball speed on a 3/4" toe strike that achieved and undesirable result? Of course not, you'll just brush it off and say it's one in a million.

 

Its a design characteristic that results in forgiveness. That GI irons have. These are word games.

 

No, I wouldn't like you to show me that. I'd like you to pick out a blade you like and calculate its deflection for a strike a half centimeter off center then do the same for a G25 and post the two numbers.

 

That would be difficult since he can’t apply equal focus.

[Nard_S]

On a mishit the difference between a #6i that is CB and one that is MB is roughly 15-18 feet. Not 20 yards but more like 5. A PGA pro might average 30 feet proximity or more with either iron and it's considered great. Delusion of how beneficial CB's MOI is in reality to what user's perceptions are is off the charts.

 

Ugh. That isn't how physics works. Its dependent on how hard you swing. "More like 5". No, its a percentage of the force applied to the ball (which also includes less loss given higher loft hence combo sets). Harder swingers lose way more distance on a toe hit than slower swingers.

 

"Roughly 15-18 feet". Where in the world did you get that? For what swing speed? Why is it "rough" ? We can calculate it to as many decimal places as you want given a trackman.

 

Crossfield did a test 2 yeras ago, the guy was a devout CB guy until he did this he bought Hogan's after that.

 

There are numerous Iron Byron tests on this and they come up with same conclusion. Google it.

 

I've played CB for 15 years blades for 10, the data jives with my experience, it's in no way 20 yards and if it happens to be that you definitely have the wrong shaft configuration or your swing is so god awful you need lessons.

[BiggErn]

On a mishit the difference between a #6i that is CB and one that is MB is roughly 15-18 feet. Not 20 yards but more like 5. A PGA pro might average 30 feet proximity or more with either iron and it's considered great. Delusion of how beneficial CB's MOI is in reality to what user's perceptions are is off the charts.

 

Ugh. That isn't how physics works. Its dependent on how hard you swing. "More like 5". No, its a percentage of the force applied to the ball (which also includes less loss given higher loft hence combo sets). Harder swingers lose way more distance on a toe hit than slower swingers.

 

"Roughly 15-18 feet". Where in the world did you get that? For what swing speed? Why is it "rough" ? We can calculate it to as many decimal places as you want given a trackman.

 

Crossfield did a test 2 yeras ago, the guy was a devout CB guy until he did this he bought Hogan's after that.

 

There are numerous Iron Byron tests on this and they come up with same conclusion. Google it.

 

I've played CB for 15 years blades for 10, the data jives with my experience, it's in no way 20 yards and if it happens to be that you definitely have the wrong shaft configuration or your swing is so god awful you need lessons.

 

 

Ugghhhh. Please don’t use Crossfield as a reference to support or dismiss anything. Will you lose 20 yards with a 9 iron? Probably not. Will you lose 20 yards with 4 iron? Most likely.

[chippa13]

On a mishit the difference between a #6i that is CB and one that is MB is roughly 15-18 feet. Not 20 yards but more like 5. A PGA pro might average 30 feet proximity or more with either iron and it's considered great. Delusion of how beneficial CB's MOI is in reality to what user's perceptions are is off the charts.

 

In an article about bogeys from 150 there was a table that showed someone who shoots in the 80's averages 42 feet from the hole from 150. Now why would they willing add another 15-18 feet to that number?

[dciccoritti]

"Forgiveness" in GI clubs is quantifiable and has been proven. The problem is a lot of anti GI crusaders try to make "forgiveness" to mean it would have to be a miracle club that saves horrendous shots.

 

In reallity all it means is that ball speeds will remain high across a larger area on the face of the club.

 

In the case of some GI and SGI clubs it also means that a ball struck low on the face will still get better height than the same miss with a blade or player's cb.

 

As someone else said, playing blades is not an indicator of skill. Score is the indicator.

 

Speed retention does not mean closer to the hole. Better height does not mean closer to the hole.

 

And 5 to 5.5 degree separation in the scoring irons does not mean further from the hole.

 

If were talking game improvement and scoring it all depends because there are just too many variables to consider.

 

No club has a right to call itself 'game improvement' and there is no science to prove such a thing.

 

And you don't need science to understand that flex face can slightly increase ball speed on an off centre hit. A 4 year old can figure that out so stop stating the pathetically obvious.

 

Game improvement and scoring is a completely other matter.

 

Ever play really well and not have the score reflect it? Ever not play so well and be surprised by your score? Ever hit it slightly heavy and find yourself pin high? Ever hit it flush and find yourself with a 20 footer back down towards the hole? Ever hit the green and 3 putt? Ever miss the green and chip in for birdie?

 

1. Just so I'm clear, you originally said forgiveness (i.e. retention of ball speed on off center hits) was the same between the two. Then rawdog posted several links to Mr. Wishon (among others) stating you were wrong. You are now saying that forgiveness doesn't matter, because random chance can cause a bad shot to be good.

 

I have played bad and shot a good score. That doesn't mean, in the next round I play, I should strive to be bad.

 

You haven't actually refuted anything. I don't know what "science is not big on using the word forgiveness" means. 2. Forgiveness means retaining ball speed on bad strikes. If I hit my 7 175, and I'm 175 out, I hit the 7. If I hit the toe, I'd like it to go as close to 175 as possible. That's forgiveness.

 

GI irons retain ball speed on bad strikes better than blades (as evidenced by the millions of links rawdog posted). Blades let more of your strike "show up" in the ball, for better or worse. If you choose you want the harder club, great. But don't pretend the other club isn't easier. It is. Just look at the material posted by rawdog. If you don't think you need it, great. That's why i keep saying you have the right to play whatever you want, but stop trying to convince rational people it makes sense for people at this skill level to play these clubs (assuming score is your only goal). The links rawdog posted are overwhelmingly convincing.

 

Forgiveness doesn't matter because there's a lot of randomness in golf anyways. el-oh-el.

 

You basically have stockholm syndrome but for a type of iron.

 

1. Show me where I even remotely insinuated that, let alone said it.

 

2. Wrong. Retaining ball speed on off centre strikes is called 'retaining ball speed on off centre strikes'. Face Flex is a design characteristic, not forgiveness. It CAN make a shot better and it CAN make a shot worse in terms of scoring. Would you like me to show you and example of a PING G400 retaining ball speed on a 3/4" toe strike that achieved and undesirable result? Of course not, you'll just brush it off and say it's one in a million.

 

Its a design characteristic that results in forgiveness. That GI irons have. These are word games.

 

No, I wouldn't like you to show me that. I'd like you to pick out a blade you like and calculate its deflection for a strike a half centimeter off center then do the same for a G25 and post the two numbers.

 

Who's disputing this? Who? Where in this thread does someone dispute better ball speed retention on off centre hits with CB's or HB's? Where?

 

Why do you insist on stating not only the obvious, but the undisputed?

 

Better ball speed on off centre hits? Yes! Game improvement? No! Too many variables to make such a claim.

[chippa13]

On a mishit the difference between a #6i that is CB and one that is MB is roughly 15-18 feet. Not 20 yards but more like 5. A PGA pro might average 30 feet proximity or more with either iron and it's considered great. Delusion of how beneficial CB's MOI is in reality to what user's perceptions are is off the charts.

 

Ugh. That isn't how physics works. Its dependent on how hard you swing. "More like 5". No, its a percentage of the force applied to the ball (which also includes less loss given higher loft hence combo sets). Harder swingers lose way more distance on a toe hit than slower swingers.

 

"Roughly 15-18 feet". Where in the world did you get that? For what swing speed? Why is it "rough" ? We can calculate it to as many decimal places as you want given a trackman.

 

Crossfield did a test 2 yeras ago, the guy was a devout CB guy until he did this he bought Hogan's after that.

 

There are numerous Iron Byron tests on this and they come up with same conclusion. Google it.

 

I've played CB for 15 years blades for 10, the data jives with my experience, it's in no way 20 yards and if it happens to be that you definitely have the wrong shaft configuration or your swing is so god awful you need lessons.

 

But do these tests truly take real-world 12-15 cap swings? They may be moving the contact to offcenter but are they still squaring the clubface? Do they add an over closed face to a heel strike or a more open face on a toe strike? Just by moving the contact off center doesn't tell enough of the story when comparing the differing constructions.

[radiman]

 

Did you read the material rawdog posted?

 

The amount you lose is dependent on the force of the strike. Deflection = (F / 2K)(x^2+1)

 

where F is force, K is the spring constant, and X is how far away from the center you've hit the ball. In rigid irons (i.e. blades) you see a very smooth deterioration of force as you move from the center to the edge. This is not true with game improvement irons. Its not smooth - you retain way more force on the strike.

 

So you will always lose exactly the same amount - expressed by percent. It may or may not be 20 yards, depending on how hard you hit the ball. But it will always be x% for each iron and each distance from center that you strike the ball.

 

It isn't disputable that game improvement irons maintain ballspeed across the face better than blade irons. It *is* disputable what a particular player should play.

 

Again, we don't really care if you or d-conti plays blades. What we don't like is fiction posted as fact. Blades have some huge upsides (workability, especially in height) but some huge downsides too. When people start talking about magic beans like blades not losing ball speed like SGI/GI or that a human being focuses more when a task is harder (we don't) then we arn't "cavity crusaders".

 

It is overwhelmingly likely that a non-elite player needs forgiveness (please see the article by Mr. Wishon, it is very good and hard to argue with) more than what blades offer. That's why some of us think its silly and vanity for certain guys to rock blades.

 

I don't know that anyone is arguing the fact that GI irons are more forgiving? If so, I missed it.

 

My point is that, for me, blades have been an easier transition that I thought they's be. They are more playable than what I think people give them credit for. I am not foolish enough to think that a G400 iron isn't going to be more forgiving. If my ball goes as far as it should have, or at least within reason on a slight mis-hit. I don't care if it's because ball speed was the same. Heck maybe it didn't spin as much resulting in similar carry. As far as playability, I would argue that they aren't as far away from some players CB irons though, at least in my experience. I don't have any MOI numbers, but again, for me, they aren't any more penal (better than the word forgiveness :)) than the MP15, which I would classify as a players CB. But, my miss is towards the toe, which may be helped by the clubhead mass that appears to be in this particular club as well as tungsten in the toe. Again, there may be some players CB's out in the world that I'd like better. I just can't afford to rifle through sets, and we don't have a quality fitter anywhere local to test out the full gamut of product offerings. I guess, they are sufficient for my game at this point would be the best way to put it. I cannot say that they are the end all be all, because frankly, there is just too many offerings that I haven't been able to try.

[buzlin]

On a mishit the difference between a #6i that is CB and one that is MB is roughly 15-18 feet. Not 20 yards but more like 5. A PGA pro might average 30 feet proximity or more with either iron and it's considered great. Delusion of how beneficial CB's MOI is in reality to what user's perceptions are is off the charts.

 

In an article about bogeys from 150 there was a table that showed someone who shoots in the 80's averages 42 feet from the hole from 150. Now why would they willing add another 15-18 feet to that number?

I get what you're trying to say, but you're assuming the 42 ft is only short and dead straight. Don't forget long, left, and right.

[Nard_S]

On a mishit the difference between a #6i that is CB and one that is MB is roughly 15-18 feet. Not 20 yards but more like 5. A PGA pro might average 30 feet proximity or more with either iron and it's considered great. Delusion of how beneficial CB's MOI is in reality to what user's perceptions are is off the charts.

 

Ugh. That isn't how physics works. Its dependent on how hard you swing. "More like 5". No, its a percentage of the force applied to the ball (which also includes less loss given higher loft hence combo sets). Harder swingers lose way more distance on a toe hit than slower swingers.

 

"Roughly 15-18 feet". Where in the world did you get that? For what swing speed? Why is it "rough" ? We can calculate it to as many decimal places as you want given a trackman.

 

Crossfield did a test 2 yeras ago, the guy was a devout CB guy until he did this he bought Hogan's after that.

 

There are numerous Iron Byron tests on this and they come up with same conclusion. Google it.

 

I've played CB for 15 years blades for 10, the data jives with my experience, it's in no way 20 yards and if it happens to be that you definitely have the wrong shaft configuration or your swing is so god awful you need lessons.

 

 

Ugghhhh. Please don’t use Crossfield as a reference to support or dismiss anything. Will you lose 20 yards with a 9 iron? Probably not. Will you lose 20 yards with 4 iron? Most likely.

 

It's was tested with a #6i. Crossfield as pro CB and anti-MB before he did it You can Google this and it will stand up. It's a myth that a CB hits to true distance on every off center shot. They just don't and neither does a blade but a blade will cost an extra 5. Big deal. crappy swing, crappy result in both.

[Nard_S]

On a mishit the difference between a #6i that is CB and one that is MB is roughly 15-18 feet. Not 20 yards but more like 5. A PGA pro might average 30 feet proximity or more with either iron and it's considered great. Delusion of how beneficial CB's MOI is in reality to what user's perceptions are is off the charts.

 

In an article about bogeys from 150 there was a table that showed someone who shoots in the 80's averages 42 feet from the hole from 150. Now why would they willing add another 15-18 feet to that number?

 

I don't know, I'm a low-mid 80's guy. I hit it within 20 feet 5x on front nine last week. Not usual but if I'm not feeling the swing I club 5 yards more, if I'm jacked 5 less.It's called game management. There's a par 3, 190 yards, 170 forced carry. I club for back part of green every time. Catches thin, I'm center, full at back. I've put it in the drink 1x this season, I've birdied it 3X in the 10 rounds I've played it this year. MOI is over rated.

[chippa13]

On a mishit the difference between a #6i that is CB and one that is MB is roughly 15-18 feet. Not 20 yards but more like 5. A PGA pro might average 30 feet proximity or more with either iron and it's considered great. Delusion of how beneficial CB's MOI is in reality to what user's perceptions are is off the charts.

 

In an article about bogeys from 150 there was a table that showed someone who shoots in the 80's averages 42 feet from the hole from 150. Now why would they willing add another 15-18 feet to that number?

I get what you're trying to say, but you're assuming the 42 ft is only short and dead straight. Don't forget long, left, and right.

 

Correct, but even if the miss on a would have been pin-high right or left adds a few feet if you're just talking a right triangle but if you're distance is 42 feet with a larger angle triangle created by the 15-18 feet short then you're adding several more feet to the miss. With those several feet are potentially adding another putt and hurting the players ability to score.

[BiggErn]

 

Did you read the material rawdog posted?

 

The amount you lose is dependent on the force of the strike. Deflection = (F / 2K)(x^2+1)

 

where F is force, K is the spring constant, and X is how far away from the center you've hit the ball. In rigid irons (i.e. blades) you see a very smooth deterioration of force as you move from the center to the edge. This is not true with game improvement irons. Its not smooth - you retain way more force on the strike.

 

So you will always lose exactly the same amount - expressed by percent. It may or may not be 20 yards, depending on how hard you hit the ball. But it will always be x% for each iron and each distance from center that you strike the ball.

 

It isn't disputable that game improvement irons maintain ballspeed across the face better than blade irons. It *is* disputable what a particular player should play.

 

Again, we don't really care if you or d-conti plays blades. What we don't like is fiction posted as fact. Blades have some huge upsides (workability, especially in height) but some huge downsides too. When people start talking about magic beans like blades not losing ball speed like SGI/GI or that a human being focuses more when a task is harder (we don't) then we arn't "cavity crusaders".

 

It is overwhelmingly likely that a non-elite player needs forgiveness (please see the article by Mr. Wishon, it is very good and hard to argue with) more than what blades offer. That's why some of us think its silly and vanity for certain guys to rock blades.

 

I don't know that anyone is arguing the fact that GI irons are more forgiving? If so, I missed it.

 

My point is that, for me, blades have been an easier transition that I thought they's be. They are more playable than what I think people give them credit for. I am not foolish enough to think that a G400 iron isn't going to be more forgiving. If my ball goes as far as it should have, or at least within reason on a slight mis-hit. I don't care if it's because ball speed was the same. Heck maybe it didn't spin as much resulting in similar carry. As far as playability, I would argue that they aren't as far away from some players CB irons though, at least in my experience. I don't have any MOI numbers, but again, for me, they aren't any more penal (better than the word forgiveness :)) than the MP15, which I would classify as a players CB. But, my miss is towards the toe, which may be helped by the clubhead mass that appears to be in this particular club as well as tungsten in the toe. Again, there may be some players CB's out in the world that I'd like better. I just can't afford to rifle through sets, and we don't have a quality fitter anywhere local to test out the full gamut of product offerings. I guess, they are sufficient for my game at this point would be the best way to put it. I cannot say that they are the end all be all, because frankly, there is just too many offerings that I haven't been able to try.

 

 

The sweet spot on older blades was maybe heel side center. The toe weighting pulled it closer to dead center. That probably made toe strikes less penal. At least you’re sensible. Some guys just make random stuff up and want to play word games. They can’t discern that GI means forgiveness on less than perfect shots and try to use “GI clubs don’t improve my score so forgiveness is a myth”.

[chippa13]

On a mishit the difference between a #6i that is CB and one that is MB is roughly 15-18 feet. Not 20 yards but more like 5. A PGA pro might average 30 feet proximity or more with either iron and it's considered great. Delusion of how beneficial CB's MOI is in reality to what user's perceptions are is off the charts.

 

In an article about bogeys from 150 there was a table that showed someone who shoots in the 80's averages 42 feet from the hole from 150. Now why would they willing add another 15-18 feet to that number?

 

I don't know, I'm a low-mid 80's guy. I hit it within 20 feet 5x on front nine last week. Not usual but if I'm not feeling the swing I club 5 yards more, if I'm jacked 5 less.It's called game management. There's a par 3, 190 yards, 170 forced carry. I club for back part of green every time. Catches thin, I'm center, full at back. I've put it in the drink 1x this season, I've birdied it 3X in the 10 rounds I've played it this year. MOI is over rated.

 

That is an average number. Congratulations on putting 5 within 20 feet last round. I guess we'll ignore those other holes where you missed the green entirely or were putting from a different zip code.

[pinestreetgolf]

Who's disputing this? Who? Where in this thread does someone dispute better ball speed retention on off centre hits with CB's or HB's? Where?

 

Why do you insist on stating not only the obvious, but the undisputed?

 

Better ball speed on off centre hits? Yes! Game improvement? No! Too many variables to make such a claim.

 

Your words earlier in the thread:

 

Ah yes. Forgiveness on off centre hits. A complete crock of s*** with zero scientific evidence (for those that actually understand how science works) and zero real world experience. So why do douchebags keep using forgiveness as their argument? Because it's the perfect fallacy to scare everyone away from blades. And like I said, for the few, blades must be banished and never talked about again.

 

We then posted not only significant empirical evidence but also the actual calculation for deflection, and you didn't bring it up again. Then you posted your whole "there's too many variables in golf to care about forgiveness" tripe. But, originally, you said Mr. Wishon's work was "A complete crock of s***"".

 

You're all over the place. Just admit it man. Playing blades makes you feel cool, and lets you hit some cool shots. Nothing wrong with that. Stop all this nonsense about focus and forgiveness being fake.

[wmblake2000]

I am always amazed that people have this much energy for this debate.

[Nard_S]

On a mishit the difference between a #6i that is CB and one that is MB is roughly 15-18 feet. Not 20 yards but more like 5. A PGA pro might average 30 feet proximity or more with either iron and it's considered great. Delusion of how beneficial CB's MOI is in reality to what user's perceptions are is off the charts.

 

In an article about bogeys from 150 there was a table that showed someone who shoots in the 80's averages 42 feet from the hole from 150. Now why would they willing add another 15-18 feet to that number?

 

I don't know, I'm a low-mid 80's guy. I hit it within 20 feet 5x on front nine last week. Not usual but if I'm not feeling the swing I club 5 yards more, if I'm jacked 5 less.It's called game management. There's a par 3, 190 yards, 170 forced carry. I club for back part of green every time. Catches thin, I'm center, full at back. I've put it in the drink 1x this season, I've birdied it 3X in the 10 rounds I've played it this year. MOI is over rated.

 

That is an average number. Congratulations on putting 5 within 20 feet last round. I guess we'll ignore those other holes where you missed the green entirely or were putting from a different zip code.

 

For the record did 39 on front with only 1 made birdie attempt. +7 after 13. I went +9 on last 5 and all the clubs responsible (except for 2 iron swings) for the slide were my Ti MOI laden metals.Maybe I should go Persimmon.

[buzlin]

On a mishit the difference between a #6i that is CB and one that is MB is roughly 15-18 feet. Not 20 yards but more like 5. A PGA pro might average 30 feet proximity or more with either iron and it's considered great. Delusion of how beneficial CB's MOI is in reality to what user's perceptions are is off the charts.

 

In an article about bogeys from 150 there was a table that showed someone who shoots in the 80's averages 42 feet from the hole from 150. Now why would they willing add another 15-18 feet to that number?

I get what you're trying to say, but you're assuming the 42 ft is only short and dead straight. Don't forget long, left, and right.

 

Correct, but even if the miss on a would have been pin-high right or left adds a few feet if you're just talking a right triangle but if you're distance is 42 feet with a larger angle triangle created by the 15-18 feet short then you're adding several more feet to the miss. With those several feet are potentially adding another putt and hurting the players ability to score.

I don't disagree, if we were playing on completely flat greens with symmetrical hazards, this would clearly have a definitive impact on scores. Unfortunately, golf isn't played like this. So what happens is that any gains you see in proximity to intended target, get diluted by much larger influences (slopes, poor club selection, bunkers, etc.....). This is all in context of scoring on a golf course. Elite players are able to make much better swings AND much better judgement about where their true target is, so for them they're able to clearly choose what works best for them. For recreational players, there are so many more things that influence their scores, so in the end, mid/long iron shots whether with MBs or CBs have a minuscule impact. This is why I believe you can't get a consensus because the evidence isn't conclusive enough for most players.

 

Again, i'm not disagreeing with CBs being more "forgiving" than MBs, as evidenced by my bag, I just don't think the impact on scoring is as big as some want to make it. Anecdotal evidence is that thread about what impact MBs had on your game.

 

All good.

[BiggErn]

On a mishit the difference between a #6i that is CB and one that is MB is roughly 15-18 feet. Not 20 yards but more like 5. A PGA pro might average 30 feet proximity or more with either iron and it's considered great. Delusion of how beneficial CB's MOI is in reality to what user's perceptions are is off the charts.

 

In an article about bogeys from 150 there was a table that showed someone who shoots in the 80's averages 42 feet from the hole from 150. Now why would they willing add another 15-18 feet to that number?

 

I don't know, I'm a low-mid 80's guy. I hit it within 20 feet 5x on front nine last week. Not usual but if I'm not feeling the swing I club 5 yards more, if I'm jacked 5 less.It's called game management. There's a par 3, 190 yards, 170 forced carry. I club for back part of green every time. Catches thin, I'm center, full at back. I've put it in the drink 1x this season, I've birdied it 3X in the 10 rounds I've played it this year. MOI is over rated.

 

That is an average number. Congratulations on putting 5 within 20 feet last round. I guess we'll ignore those other holes where you missed the green entirely or were putting from a different zip code.

 

For the record did 39 on front with only 1 made birdie attempt. +7 after 13. I went +9 on last 5 and all the clubs responsible (except for 2 iron swings) for the slide were my Ti MOI laden metals.Maybe I should go Persimmon.

 

 

Need a baby blade 1 iron with face forward technology

[buzlin]

I am always amazed that people have this much energy for this debate.

Sometimes I have to take a rest, but I really enjoy this subject. I do want to start a thread about why everyone isn't playing mallet putters. The science is clearly there. What's the deal?

[chippa13]

On a mishit the difference between a #6i that is CB and one that is MB is roughly 15-18 feet. Not 20 yards but more like 5. A PGA pro might average 30 feet proximity or more with either iron and it's considered great. Delusion of how beneficial CB's MOI is in reality to what user's perceptions are is off the charts.

 

In an article about bogeys from 150 there was a table that showed someone who shoots in the 80's averages 42 feet from the hole from 150. Now why would they willing add another 15-18 feet to that number?

I get what you're trying to say, but you're assuming the 42 ft is only short and dead straight. Don't forget long, left, and right.

 

Correct, but even if the miss on a would have been pin-high right or left adds a few feet if you're just talking a right triangle but if you're distance is 42 feet with a larger angle triangle created by the 15-18 feet short then you're adding several more feet to the miss. With those several feet are potentially adding another putt and hurting the players ability to score.

I don't disagree, if we were playing on completely flat greens with symmetrical hazards, this would clearly have a definitive impact on scores. Unfortunately, golf isn't played like this. So what happens is that any gains you see in proximity to intended target, get diluted by much larger influences (slopes, poor club selection, bunkers, etc.....). This is all in context of scoring on a golf course. Elite players are able to make much better swings AND much better judgement about where their true target is, so for them they're able to clearly choose what works best for them. For recreational players, there are so many more things that influence their scores, so in the end, mid/long iron shots whether with MBs or CBs have a minuscule impact. This is why I believe you can't get a consensus because the evidence isn't conclusive enough for most players.

 

Again, i'm not disagreeing with CBs being more "forgiving" than MBs, as evidenced by my bag, I just don't think the impact on scoring is as big as some want to make it. Anecdotal evidence is that thread about what impact MBs had on your game.

 

All good.

 

The bolded is where I disagree. The more you increase one's dispersion, the greater a chance that a long 2 putt becomes a tough up and down and that can add strokes and turn an 82 into an 87 real fast.

[chippa13]

I am always amazed that people have this much energy for this debate.

Sometimes I have to take a rest, but I really enjoy this subject. I do want to start a thread about why everyone isn't playing mallet putters. The science is clearly there. What's the deal?

 

Interesting. I've tested a couple of those mallets from time to time and they just feel so wrong compared to the Northwestern 303 I used in my formative years (and just found one on eBay to replace the one that died some 15 years ago).

[buzlin]

The bolded is where I disagree. The more you increase one's dispersion, the greater a chance that a long 2 putt becomes a tough up and down and that can add strokes and turn an 82 into an 87 real fast.

Fair enough. I don't disagree that there is an impact, and I don't disagree that it could turn an 82 into an 87. I just don't think slightly larger dispersion amounts to that large an impact that often, and nor do I think the impact is always negative. Which again, is my point for why there isn't a clear consensus, like there is for 440+cc drivers, which clearly have a positive impact on scores.