Is KBS Tour "Toe Drop" really a thing?

[Wardonation]

I had a set when they came out and found this to be an issue, but I am wondering if this really is a thing? If so, do people adjust lie angle? ANy feedback would be appreciated?

[halliedog]

I had a set when they came out and found this to be an issue, but I am wondering if this really is a thing? If so, do people adjust lie angle? ANy feedback would be appreciated?

 

Apparently for you it is?

 

edit - best way to tell is get a fitting, as different shafts will do different things for different people with different heads.

[DaveMac]

Toe down is a reality of golf club delivery, it is a result of the player’s swing and the reaction of the shaft to the swing, it is not an issue isolated to the KBS tour.

 

Depending on the amount of toe down and how it affects strike, it can be managed by lie angle adjustment, shaft change and if required a change in technique.

[jj9000]

If the tips are bent 45* I could see this being an issue.

 

I wish I wasn't joking.

[Socrates]

I had a set when they came out and found this to be an issue, but I am wondering if this really is a thing? If so, do people adjust lie angle? ANy feedback would be appreciated?

Droop is the term. As you swing the club, the centrifugal forces are trying to create a straight line from your hands to the CG of the clubhead. There is always some amount of deflection or droop. The amount of droop varies with shaft (specifically shaft tip) flex and the swing speed. Which is why players should get checked for lie angle when they change to a different shaft in their clubs. KBS shafts have a soft tip section and it wouldn't surprise me to see a 1º lie change depending on what was used previously. The head shape can also be a factor as a longer flatter sole combined with a switch to a softer shaft may require more of a change in lie.

 

The whole KBS shaft tip becoming bent at the hosel is a whole different matter.

[halliedog]

I had a set when they came out and found this to be an issue, but I am wondering if this really is a thing? If so, do people adjust lie angle? ANy feedback would be appreciated?

Droop is the term. As you swing the club, the centrifugal forces are trying to create a straight line from your hands to the CG of the clubhead. There is always some amount of deflection or droop. The amount of droop varies with shaft (specifically shaft tip) flex and the swing speed. Which is why players should get checked for lie angle when they change to a different shaft in their clubs. KBS shafts have a soft tip section and it wouldn't surprise me to see a 1º lie change depending on what was used previously. The head shape can also be a factor as a longer flatter sole combined with a switch to a softer shaft may require more of a change in lie.

 

The whole KBS shaft tip becoming bent at the hosel is a whole different matter.

 

Socrates, not trying to thread-jack, but you seem quite knowledgeable - to the best of your knowledge has KBS remedied the tip bending thing with the Tour Vs and Tour FLTs? I just pulled a set of Tour Vs from a set that I used for 2-3 years and didn't notice any bending, (but my SS is not of WRX stature). I have a set of S C-Tapers in some clubs I've used a little longer and don't notice anything on them either, but haven't pulled them to examine.

[Socrates]

I had a set when they came out and found this to be an issue, but I am wondering if this really is a thing? If so, do people adjust lie angle? ANy feedback would be appreciated?

Droop is the term. As you swing the club, the centrifugal forces are trying to create a straight line from your hands to the CG of the clubhead. There is always some amount of deflection or droop. The amount of droop varies with shaft (specifically shaft tip) flex and the swing speed. Which is why players should get checked for lie angle when they change to a different shaft in their clubs. KBS shafts have a soft tip section and it wouldn't surprise me to see a 1º lie change depending on what was used previously. The head shape can also be a factor as a longer flatter sole combined with a switch to a softer shaft may require more of a change in lie.

 

The whole KBS shaft tip becoming bent at the hosel is a whole different matter.

 

Socrates, not trying to thread-jack, but you seem quite knowledgeable - to the best of your knowledge has KBS remedied the tip bending thing with the Tour Vs and Tour FLTs? I just pulled a set of Tour Vs from a set that I used for 2-3 years and didn't notice any bending, (but my SS is not of WRX stature). I have a set of S C-Tapers in some clubs I've used a little longer and don't notice anything on them either, but haven't pulled them to examine.

Not that I’m aware of. What makes kbs shafts popular, is also their Achilles heel. They seem to be content to replace as required by people with bent tips. All I can tell you is that I have yet to take apart a set of clubs where there isn’t one or more of the shafts bent. This encompasses joe hackers clubs and golf professionals clubs so it can’t be attributed to just crappy golfers. The only real way to tell is to pull them apart and inspect them. Many golfers if the do notice something (and most don’t) attribute any change to their irons magically changing lie or loft and have them altered without realizing the shaft is bending and not the hosel.

[halliedog]

I had a set when they came out and found this to be an issue, but I am wondering if this really is a thing? If so, do people adjust lie angle? ANy feedback would be appreciated?

Droop is the term. As you swing the club, the centrifugal forces are trying to create a straight line from your hands to the CG of the clubhead. There is always some amount of deflection or droop. The amount of droop varies with shaft (specifically shaft tip) flex and the swing speed. Which is why players should get checked for lie angle when they change to a different shaft in their clubs. KBS shafts have a soft tip section and it wouldn't surprise me to see a 1º lie change depending on what was used previously. The head shape can also be a factor as a longer flatter sole combined with a switch to a softer shaft may require more of a change in lie.

 

The whole KBS shaft tip becoming bent at the hosel is a whole different matter.

 

Socrates, not trying to thread-jack, but you seem quite knowledgeable - to the best of your knowledge has KBS remedied the tip bending thing with the Tour Vs and Tour FLTs? I just pulled a set of Tour Vs from a set that I used for 2-3 years and didn't notice any bending, (but my SS is not of WRX stature). I have a set of S C-Tapers in some clubs I've used a little longer and don't notice anything on them either, but haven't pulled them to examine.

Not that I’m aware of. What makes kbs shafts popular, is also their Achilles heel. They seem to be content to replace as required by people with bent tips. All I can tell you is that I have yet to take apart a set of clubs where there isn’t one or more of the shafts bent. This encompasses joe hackers clubs and golf professionals clubs so it can’t be attributed to just crappy golfers. The only real way to tell is to pull them apart and inspect them. Many golfers if the do notice something (and most don’t) attribute any change to their irons magically changing lie or loft and have them altered without realizing the shaft is bending and not the hosel.

 

Thanks for the feedback. I guess I'll need to check mine although my SS tops out about 105-109 for Driver.

 

Now back to OP's question.

[TheBIIgCat]

KBS has not remedied the issue. I have bent the short irons in 2 separate sets. Although customer service is great, it’s a major hassle to replace the shafts once a year

[TPG1971]

KBS has not remedied the issue. I have bent the short irons in 2 separate sets. Although customer service is great, it’s a major hassle to replace the shafts once a year

 

Wow, I had no idea about this. I was actually thinking about a set of some KBS to bring the ball flight down a little in my i200's.... I think I will look elsewhere if this is a product wide issue.

[underwater]

On 11/8/2018 at 1:47 AM, TPG1971 said:

 

Wow, I had no idea about this. I was actually thinking about a set of some KBS to bring the ball flight down a little in my i200's.... I think I will look elsewhere if this is a product wide issue.

 

It's not a KBS issue.  There are countless Tour players playing KBS including Open Championship winner Cameron Smith, Shane Lowry, Max Homa, etc, etc.  I've been playing KBS Tour for 20 years, from the time I was scratch to now - and I'm still low single figure.  ZERO issues with tips of KBS bending.  But if you put KBS (or any shaft) in the hands of the hack at the driving range I saw chopping straight down like he was trying to kill a snake on the ground, you'd see bent tips of any major brand.  It's a golfer problem, not a KBS problem.  In 20 years I've never seen bent tips in the wild, even on guys who MOVE the ball.

[phizzy30]

4 hours ago, underwater said:

 

It's not a KBS issue.  There are countless Tour players playing KBS including Open Championship winner Cameron Smith, Shane Lowry, Max Homa, etc, etc.  I've been playing KBS Tour for 20 years, from the time I was scratch to now - and I'm still low single figure.  ZERO issues with tips of KBS bending.  But if you put KBS (or any shaft) in the hands of the hack at the driving range I saw chopping straight down like he was trying to kill a snake on the ground, you'd see bent tips of any major brand.  It's a golfer problem, not a KBS problem.  In 20 years I've never seen bent tips in the wild, even on guys who MOVE the ball.

Not true.  There are plenty of incidents where guys with 120+ ss have bent the tips of their C-taper.  The tour pro I train had a set of C-taper 130X that he bent so I've seen it in person.  Guys here have reported bent tips from PX LS as well. 

Edited April 27 by phizzy30

[underwater]

1 hour ago, phizzy30 said:

Not true.  There are plenty of incidents where guys with 120+ ball speed have bent the tips of their C-taper.  The tour pro I train had a set of C-taper 130X that he bent so I've seen it in person.  Guys here have reported bent tips from PX LS as well. 

 

Seems like a terribly steep swing flaw - I'll repeat that I've never seen it in decades of golf and 20 years in KBS Tour and $-Taper.  Many plus handicappers in my purview.  But whatever.  Wouldn't sway me a bit.  KBS makes a wonderful product line.

 

Edited April 27 by underwater

[phizzy30]

1 hour ago, underwater said:

 

Seems like a terribly steep swing flaw - I'll repeat that I've never seen it in decades of golf and 20 years in KBS Tour and $-Taper.  Many plus handicappers in my purview.  But whatever.  Wouldn't sway me a bit.  KBS makes a wonderful product line.

 

Kim Braley does produce some of the best steel shafts on the market.  I've played KBS Tour, C-taper and tested most of the other shafts in the lineup.  I have the 610 and Tour in my wedges.  My ss is 118+ and I tend to get steep but still choose to go with KBS because they flat out perform.  Just because you've never seen bent tips in person doesn't mean that it's just a swing flaw that causes them.  I've read and heard from several sources that Kim doesn't believe in reinforcing the tips therefore they're more prone to bending.  It is what it is but believe whatever you want. 

Edited April 27 by phizzy30

[denkea]

10 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

Kim Braley does produce some of the best steel shafts on the market

You mean FST (Femco Steel Technologies) don't you???

Edited April 27 by denkea

[phizzy30]

9 minutes ago, denkea said:

You mean FST (Femco Steel Technologies) don't you???

Semantics, but sure.  Kim Braly designs them and FST produces them. 

[Wardonation]

100% a real thing for me...

[phizzy30]

37 minutes ago, Wardonation said:

100% a real thing for me...

Which KBS shafts did you manage to bend? 

[Valtiel]

14 hours ago, underwater said:

 

Seems like a terribly steep swing flaw - I'll repeat that I've never seen it in decades of golf and 20 years in KBS Tour and $-Taper.  Many plus handicappers in my purview.  But whatever.  Wouldn't sway me a bit.  KBS makes a wonderful product line.

 

 

12 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

Just because you've never seen bent tips in person doesn't mean that it's just a swing flaw that causes them.  I've read and heard from several sources that Kim doesn't believe in reinforcing the tips therefore they're more prone to bending.  It is what it is but believe whatever you want. 

Yeah this isn't some one-off thing here, bent KBS tips are a known issue due to how the shafts are designed. Sure it will be exacerbated by hitting off of mats and/or with particularly step swings, but KBS tips bend will under those circumstances where other shafts don't. 

[Wardonation]

38 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

Which KBS shafts did you manage to bend? 

I have not bent any that I am aware of? I know when I played the KBS Tours for a short time, I hit everything out on the toe. I tried to fix it by adjusting my lie angles as I was not aware of the "toe droop" at that time.  I used to play PX 6.0 but then developed tennis elbow really bad. I currently play the $ Tapers as they have really helped me out dispersion wise. 

[phizzy30]

6 minutes ago, Wardonation said:

I have not bent any that I am aware of? I know when I played the KBS Tours for a short time, I hit everything out on the toe. I tried to fix it by adjusting my lie angles as I was not aware of the "toe droop" at that time.  I used to play PX 6.0 but then developed tennis elbow really bad. I currently play the $ Tapers as they have really helped me out dispersion wise. 

I misunderstood your post then. 

[Wardonation]

3 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

I misunderstood your post then. 

Maybe I read the OP wrong haha

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, Wardonation said:

100% a real thing for me...

 

1 hour ago, Wardonation said:

I have not bent any that I am aware of? I know when I played the KBS Tours for a short time, I hit everything out on the toe. I tried to fix it by adjusting my lie angles as I was not aware of the "toe droop" at that time.  I used to play PX 6.0 but then developed tennis elbow really bad. I currently play the $ Tapers as they have really helped me out dispersion wise. 

 

1 hour ago, Wardonation said:

Maybe I read the OP wrong haha

 

No, actually you didn't recognize the ensuing "thread drift".

 

Your OP was about "toe droop" but since then had morphed into KBS' known tip-bending issue.

 

Since the thread had morphed into "tip bending", and you came back and talked about the original topic (toe droop again) with "100% real thing for me" - Phizzy thought you were referring to the tip bending issue.

 

Carry on.

[Inexorable_Fate]

My KBS FLT 120s had several bent tips and 2 snapped shafts at the hosel from normal (-typically 3-4* AoA/90 mph 7i) swings on grass over the course of about 3 years using them.

 

I contacted KBS via email and their website form twice and never heard back. Never called to deal with it because I moved on to shafts that fit me better.

[t4t3r]

Not only have the non-reinforced tip sections been an issue for many years, they also stopped outright replacing them unless they're "under warranty" which is only 1 year. The last time I asked about a set they offered a 15% discount.

Edited April 27 by t4t3r

[underwater]

9 minutes ago, Inexorable_Fate said:

My KBS FLT 120s had several bent tips and 2 snapped shafts at the hosel from normal (-typically 3-4* AoA/90 mph 7i) swings on grass over the course of about 3 years using them.

 

I contacted KBS via email and their website form twice and never heard back. Never called to deal with it because I moved on to shafts that fit me better.

 

I've seen them break at the hosel, but it was because there was rust in the shaft due to water either getting in from the grip hole or jutting in a bucket on the range.