4 full days in St. Andrews, help with a schedule

[Clambake]

> @Rohlio said:

> > @gregkeller said:

> > Kingsbarns over Carnousite?

>

> I played both on my current trip... And without question I would play Kingsbarns over carnoustie. Outside of the history and emotion of the old course and the absolute perfection of North Berwick, KB has been my favorite. I am playing Royal Dornoch tomorrow, so I may change... But I would never consider going to St Andrews and not playing KB.

 

Funny, I have the exact opposite perspective. Kingsbarns is an excellent course and is on a lovely piece of coastline, but to my group we felt we were playing a nice American course that happened to sit on the Scottish coast. Same feeling with Castle Stuart. But Carnoustie is a very solid and fair test of golf that offers all the different shot options that wanted in a links design, and we found it more enjoyable and memorable. If I returned to St. Andrews for quite a few days I’d consider playing KB again, but especially with limited time I’d seek out those courses that provide the unique Scottish version of golf and not Americanized versions. I like the unique character and history and how the holes were made out of what the land provided, and feel that adds much more to the experience than playing somewhere where a large budget and tons of earthmoving equipment defined the course.

[Rohlio]

> @Clambake said:

> > @Rohlio said:

> > > @gregkeller said:

> > > Kingsbarns over Carnousite?

> >

> > I played both on my current trip... And without question I would play Kingsbarns over carnoustie. Outside of the history and emotion of the old course and the absolute perfection of North Berwick, KB has been my favorite. I am playing Royal Dornoch tomorrow, so I may change... But I would never consider going to St Andrews and not playing KB.

>

> Funny, I have the exact opposite perspective. Kingsbarns is an excellent course and is on a lovely piece of coastline, but to my group we felt we were playing a nice American course that happened to sit on the Scottish coast. Same feeling with Castle Stuart. But Carnoustie is a very solid and fair test of golf that offers all the different shot options that wanted in a links design, and we found it more enjoyable and memorable. If I returned to St. Andrews for quite a few days I’d consider playing KB again, but especially with limited time I’d seek out those courses that provide the unique Scottish version of golf and not Americanized versions. I like the unique character and history and how the holes were made out of what the land provided, and feel that adds much more to the experience than playing somewhere where a large budget and tons of earthmoving equipment defined the course.

 

I can see that perspective. I agree there is always something magical about natural. But if I just sit back and think which course did I enjoy the most? Kingsbarns is way up the list for me. To each their own.

[Clambake]

> @Rohlio said:

> > @Clambake said:

> > > @Rohlio said:

> > > > @gregkeller said:

> > > > Kingsbarns over Carnousite?

> > >

> > > I played both on my current trip... And without question I would play Kingsbarns over carnoustie. Outside of the history and emotion of the old course and the absolute perfection of North Berwick, KB has been my favorite. I am playing Royal Dornoch tomorrow, so I may change... But I would never consider going to St Andrews and not playing KB.

> >

> > Funny, I have the exact opposite perspective. Kingsbarns is an excellent course and is on a lovely piece of coastline, but to my group we felt we were playing a nice American course that happened to sit on the Scottish coast. Same feeling with Castle Stuart. But Carnoustie is a very solid and fair test of golf that offers all the different shot options that wanted in a links design, and we found it more enjoyable and memorable. If I returned to St. Andrews for quite a few days I’d consider playing KB again, but especially with limited time I’d seek out those courses that provide the unique Scottish version of golf and not Americanized versions. I like the unique character and history and how the holes were made out of what the land provided, and feel that adds much more to the experience than playing somewhere where a large budget and tons of earthmoving equipment defined the course.

>

> I can see that perspective. I agree there is always something magical about natural. But if I just sit back and think which course did I enjoy the most? Kingsbarns is way up the list for me. To each their own.

 

I agree that KB is very enjoyable and glad you really enjoyed it. As you say, what tickles each of us about a course can be quite different. When we were on the plane coming home we went through all the courses we played and tried to narrow down what we loved most about each and then did a relative ranking. With KB, what we loved most was the piece of land and the resulting coastline views, how they gave the course variety with different character holes, its conditioning, and the fact they had a full driving range to warm up on. It is a fine course. It was also the most expensive course I've played in Scotland, so for someone on a budget like the OP I feel there are better options. On my first trip to Scotland I didn't play KB and wished I had, and on my second trip I did play it and wished I'd tried some of the local jewels instead, like Crail or Lundin or Anster.

 

How did you enjoy Royal Dornoch? I absolutely love that course - it may be my top course anywhere.

 

[Rohlio]

> @Clambake said:

> > @Rohlio said:

> > > @Clambake said:

> > > > @Rohlio said:

> > > > > @gregkeller said:

> > > > > Kingsbarns over Carnousite?

> > > >

> > > > I played both on my current trip... And without question I would play Kingsbarns over carnoustie. Outside of the history and emotion of the old course and the absolute perfection of North Berwick, KB has been my favorite. I am playing Royal Dornoch tomorrow, so I may change... But I would never consider going to St Andrews and not playing KB.

> > >

> > > Funny, I have the exact opposite perspective. Kingsbarns is an excellent course and is on a lovely piece of coastline, but to my group we felt we were playing a nice American course that happened to sit on the Scottish coast. Same feeling with Castle Stuart. But Carnoustie is a very solid and fair test of golf that offers all the different shot options that wanted in a links design, and we found it more enjoyable and memorable. If I returned to St. Andrews for quite a few days I’d consider playing KB again, but especially with limited time I’d seek out those courses that provide the unique Scottish version of golf and not Americanized versions. I like the unique character and history and how the holes were made out of what the land provided, and feel that adds much more to the experience than playing somewhere where a large budget and tons of earthmoving equipment defined the course.

> >

> > I can see that perspective. I agree there is always something magical about natural. But if I just sit back and think which course did I enjoy the most? Kingsbarns is way up the list for me. To each their own.

>

> I agree that KB is very enjoyable and glad you really enjoyed it. As you say, what tickles each of us about a course can be quite different. When we were on the plane coming home we went through all the courses we played and tried to narrow down what we loved most about each and then did a relative ranking. With KB, what we loved most was the piece of land and the resulting coastline views, how they gave the course variety with different character holes, its conditioning, and the fact they had a full driving range to warm up on. It is a fine course. It was also the most expensive course I've played in Scotland, so for someone on a budget like the OP I feel there are better options. On my first trip to Scotland I didn't play KB and wished I had, and on my second trip I did play it and wished I'd tried some of the local jewels instead, like Crail or Lundin or Anster.

>

> How did you enjoy Royal Dornoch? I absolutely love that course - it may be my top course anywhere.

>

Dornoch was awesome. Loved everything about it. What a beast the back 9 is into a Southwest wind! Some really unique and great holes.

 

Which actually brings me to something I liked about KB a lot as I thought about it... Each 9 contains multiple holes in a variety of directions. We had a sturdy Northeast wind and instead of feeling like a particular 9 crushed me while the other was very easy due to this it felt balanced and varied throughout.

 

[gregkeller]

Thanks for all the info guys. I have been building up the trip with my brother, who plays a lot of golf, but is not crazy into it like I am. I basically have decided that we are going to play the big 3 in the st. andrews area (TOC, Carnoustie, Kingsbarns) and then fill in our other times with New, Castle, Eden and Elie. We have realized that we both have enough airline miles to fly for free so our golfing budget just expanded quite a bit.

[gregkeller]

So as an added question, does anyone know how early I can make reservations at carnoustie and kingsbarns? I know that the advanced booking for TOC opens up towards the end of august (already have it in my phone), but carnoustie doesn't mention how far in advance the times open, and kingsbarns just has a sheet online.

[Hawkeye77]

I don’t know but if you email the club I’ll bet, based on my experience with others, you’ll get a response back very quickly.

[Hawkeye77]

Or call!

 

 

[ceejay81]

> @gregkeller said:

> So as an added question, does anyone know how early I can make reservations at carnoustie and kingsbarns? I know that the advanced booking for TOC opens up towards the end of august (already have it in my phone), but carnoustie doesn't mention how far in advance the times open, and kingsbarns just has a sheet online.

 

 

I've got my trip coming up in less than a month. I absolutely cannot wait! In regards to your question, I reached out to Carnoustie and Kingsbarns last October. On Carnoustie's website now they are only taking tee times through October 2019, but I'd imagine in the next month or two they will be opened up for next season. I couldn't book as a single by myself, but once they open the tee times up you shouldn't have any problem finding a twosome. I'd just fire off an email to them like Hawkeye said to get your answer. All of the courses have been super helpful and responsive when I've sent them messages. With Kingsbarns, I never saw a tee sheet, but when I inquired via email, they sent me a few times that they had available and I picked one that was best for me.

[gregkeller]

Yeah, I just found kingsbarns opens up times for next year on august 1st, so I'll email them then. I'll just keep checking carnoustie's site over the summer. It sucks I've got to wait 13 months at this point before my trip, but guess it gives me time to read A course called scotland, an american caddie in st. andrews, golf in the kingdom, etc. And practice my knockdown shots and 50 yard putts

[jvincent]

> @gregkeller said:

> So as an added question, does anyone know how early I can make reservations at carnoustie and kingsbarns? I know that the advanced booking for TOC opens up towards the end of august (already have it in my phone), but carnoustie doesn't mention how far in advance the times open, and kingsbarns just has a sheet online.

 

IIRC Carnoustie's online tee sheet opens up in the fall sometime for the following year.

[Clambake]

> @gregkeller said:

> We have realized that we both have enough airline miles to fly for free so our golfing budget just expanded quite a bit.

 

You'll have an awesome trip. If you haven't done so, try pricing your flights using miles to see what the taxes and fees are. If you have to connect through Heathrow you might be in for a rude surprise that ruins your budget. I have a zillion miles with One World Alliance, but I've been just purchasing airfare when I go to the UK because the fees for Heathrow are so outrageous I found it only costs a little more to purchase the ticket and not waste my miles. On my last trip I was trying to go business class and the tax/fees were over $1300 round trip; even economy was something like $800. In comparison, doing a biz class trip to Australia had only $100 in fees. Don't want you planning your itinerary to fit into a budget only to find those "free" flights are anything but!

 

[gregkeller]

> @Clambake said:

> > @gregkeller said:

> > We have realized that we both have enough airline miles to fly for free so our golfing budget just expanded quite a bit.

>

> You'll have an awesome trip. If you haven't done so, try pricing your flights using miles to see what the taxes and fees are. If you have to connect through Heathrow you might be in for a rude surprise that ruins your budget. I have a zillion miles with One World Alliance, but I've been just purchasing airfare when I go to the UK because the fees for Heathrow are so outrageous I found it only costs a little more to purchase the ticket and not waste my miles. On my last trip I was trying to go business class and the tax/fees were over $1300 round trip; even economy was something like $800. In comparison, doing a biz class trip to Australia had only $100 in fees. Don't want you planning your itinerary to fit into a budget only to find those "free" flights are anything but!

>

 

Thanks for the tips. We are going to fly direct to Edinburgh. It works well with out trip and we are only a 20 minute drive from Newark airport here in the states.

[Rohlio]

> @gregkeller said:

> So as an added question, does anyone know how early I can make reservations at carnoustie and kingsbarns? I know that the advanced booking for TOC opens up towards the end of august (already have it in my phone), but carnoustie doesn't mention how far in advance the times open, and kingsbarns just has a sheet online.

 

I made a tee time for Kingsbarns 8 months ahead...nice thing with them is if you get on TOC through the ballot on the same day you had your k

tee time they will totally reschedule you with great customer service.

[cadiburns]

> @cardoustie said:

> I would do:

> The Old Course, Muirfield, Carnoustie, Kingsbarns. KB does not get the respect it deserves

> How many times are you going to go to St. Andrew's?

> The NEW is solid and JUBILEE is pretty good after the first 6 holes

> Great town, loved my time there in 2012

 

I disagree on Kingsbarns doesn’t get respect. The whole week I was in Scotland, every local we talked to had nothing but high praise for the course. Gorgeous track. And it’s no mistake that the R&A built a testing facility on the backside of the Kingsbarns range. They’d love to get their hands on that course.

[Chanceman]

My ideal Scottish visit would be North Berwick, TOC, Carnoustie and Royal Dornoch with whatever less famous courses I might pass on the way, like Musselburgh, Crail, Panmure, Fraserburgh, Boat of Garten or Tain.

[duffer987]

> @cadiburns said:

> > @cardoustie said:

> > I would do:

> > The Old Course, Muirfield, Carnoustie, Kingsbarns. KB does not get the respect it deserves

> > How many times are you going to go to St. Andrew's?

> > The NEW is solid and JUBILEE is pretty good after the first 6 holes

> > Great town, loved my time there in 2012

>

> I disagree on Kingsbarns doesn’t get respect. The whole week I was in Scotland, every local we talked to had nothing but high praise for the course. Gorgeous track. And it’s no mistake that the R&A built a testing facility on the backside of the Kingsbarns range. They’d love to get their hands on that course.

 

I do believe Card's reference is in relation to this forum, where a number of us (while not besmirching it's quality at all) may put it on the lower end of courses to play, if you are in the area for 5 or 6 rounds, due to it being something we can get here in North America at Bandon, Cabot, etc...

[tiderider]

> @"Schley " said:

> OK guys let's keep in mind he has only 4 days and AFAIK doesn't have a helicopter. Plus he wants to have a foursome which for TOC is a problem unless he gets a tee time in advance reservations. The ballot will certainly not be a sure thing during high season. Let's assume you DON'T get the advance reservation. First put your name in the ballot 2 days ahead of you leaving for TOC. You will arrive the morning of Day 1 and get up to St. Andrews around 10 am let's say. Probably can't check into your hotel or accommodation yet, but you most probably will have an easy time getting on the New Course or Eden. Play that and have a nice trip for dinner and pub in town and you will most likely not be able to get much sleep because I have you going to TOC Pavillion at midnight - 1 am to get in line for TOC. This is your best chance to get on as a foursome (if any) or maybe 2 twosomes. You are going to have to get there by midnight or 1 am IMO. Day two is built around whenever you get out on TOC. Maybe you won the ballot and don't have to worry, but boom you knocked down the 1 course you definitely wanted to play.

>

> Day 3 IMO would be Kingsbarns AM and Crail Balcomie PM

> Day 4 Carnoustie AM, Castle or New/Eden PM

> This way you hit the iconic 2 (TOC/Carnoustie) while also hitting Balcomie with some other St. Andrews favorites.

 

i think 2 am would be fine ... i played TOC last Wed and was paired with a guy that showed up at 3 and was #2 in line, and no one else showed up all day ... it had been forecast a few days prior to rain that day, but the evening before the forecast improved a bit, so it's odd that there were only 2 people there all day ... in fact, i was moved up 10 minutes to play with him since there were 3 openings at his time - mid july and there are 3 openings at TOC! ... another tip for the OP is to contact the starter around 6ish and ask to be put on a list for late, late times that day that open up throughout the day, though you have to stay around a bit to get results ... one thing to consider for the lottery is to apply as a twosome (you get 3 2-week windows), but also apply as singles, but only on the same specific days instead of "windows" ... one of you or both of you may get on, and you can make decisions from there ... check the website for date restrictions for singles, however ...

my .02 on KB is that it is not a must play ... it's a fine course, but certainly not a Scottish links course ... you could play Whistling Straits for the same "effect", essentially ... but that's just .02 worth of opinion ...

[tiderider]

> @Hawkeye77 said:

> Don't know why you would't put in for advanced tee time and get that secured 100% if you can. I don't think there is anything you are wanting to do you can't organize come October if you don't get a guaranteed time.

 

2nd ... not sure why you wouldn't do that ... are the 3-day tickets going to sell out or something before you get your results from the ballot in Sept? ... even if they do, so what? ... New course is walk up only (I think), and I'm sure a tt at the Castle isn't difficult to get ...

 

i would do everything to play Berwick, but i'd make it the last round instead of the first ... you could have Edinburgh be your last night ... drop off the gear at the hotel in the morning, train out to Berwick, play and back to Edinburgh ... wake up and fly out ...

[El Gringo]

Berwick is a fair distance to go back and forth on the final day, especially on a 4 day trip. Why not play a course on the way to the airport... Elie works well? To be honest, after TOC Elie is the next Fife course you should target. If you are on a budget skip Kingsbarns.

 

I would wait before purchasing a 3 day ticket. I am not sure I would even recommend it if TOC is the priority. The New is easy to access as walk up if you avoid competition periods.

 

Ciao

[Rohlio]

Berwick is sooooooo goooood though. If you are staying in Edinburgh it is 45 mins on the train.

[El Gringo]

> @Rohlio said:

> Berwick is sooooooo goooood though. If you are staying in Edinburgh it is 45 mins on the train.

 

Ohhh, its obvious now you mean North Berwick. Berwick aka Goswick is a further 45 minutes away. While I am not sure it's completely sensible that NB is the right call with a high quality course such as Elie in the waiting, I completely agree that NB is a terrific course. I routinely make trips to NB with two more planned for August and September.

 

Ciao

[Rohlio]

> @"El Gringo" said:

> > @Rohlio said:

> > Berwick is sooooooo goooood though. If you are staying in Edinburgh it is 45 mins on the train.

>

> Ohhh, its obvious now you mean North Berwick. Berwick aka Goswick is a further 45 minutes away. While I am not sure it's completely sensible that NB is the right call with a high quality course such as Elie in the waiting, I completely agree that NB is a terrific course. I routinely make trips to NB with two more planned for August and September.

>

> Ciao

 

Yes I meant North Berwick.

[milesgiles]

> @gregkeller said:

> Thanks for all the info guys. I have been building up the trip with my brother, who plays a lot of golf, but is not crazy into it like I am. I basically have decided that we are going to play the big 3 in the st. andrews area (TOC, Carnoustie, Kingsbarns) and then fill in our other times with New, Castle, Eden and Elie. We have realized that we both have enough airline miles to fly for free so our golfing budget just expanded quite a bit.

 

Just got back from SA, I’d swap the Jubilee for the Eden if you are a reasonably decent player.. the Eden is very pleasant but a lot softer, wider and shorter. The Jubilee really, really asks you a question off the tee in the way none of the other trust courses do.

 

[2bGood]

I have spent some time in St Andrews over the years and here is my pro tips:

 

1. **Consider not going in summer.** Sounds crazy but go the very first week summer rates start that start April 15th. The week before is nuts as everyone plans a trip for the lower rates, but this week is a ghost town and you should be able to walk on the Old Course without much trouble. The Hotels are also really cheap this week and this can more then make up for the higher green fee.

2. Do buy the 3 day pass. If you go that week in April when the courses are not busy you can easily get in 54 (I have with no issue).

3. Get on the old course through the lottery on site or waking up early and waiting outside the started building. I did the later when there April 16th and got the first tee time no the first day. I could have play the OC everyday easily during that week - but as I shot lights out and it was extra $$$ I stuck with the other courses for the remainder of that trip. >! If you want a third more secret way to get on the OC - PM me.

4. Don't rent a car to save money! Yes I said it. It is super easy to bus up from Edinburgh. Once at St Andrews you can easily walk everywhere or the bus will take you to Kingsbarns just ask the driver to drop you at the gate. As I am sure you plan to tip a few pints - no car is great thing.

5. Stick with the 2some. Way easier to organize travel and tee time and you might meet some cool people.

6. Don't try to play everywhere. St Andrews is a great place to visit, just playing the 3 day pass course and KB is a wonderful trip - no need to try to play everywhere in one trip.

[milesgiles]

The range next to the strathtyrum/Eden is very good, grass bays and trackman. The guy on the desk less so.. told me the trackman bays were full and sent me up the other end.

Turned out there was no one else in the entire place lol

[Rohlio]

> @milesgiles said:

> The range next to the strathtyrum/Eden is very good, grass bays and trackman. The guy on the desk less so.. told me the trackman bays were full and sent me up the other end.

> Turned out there was no one else in the entire place lol

 

Hahaha... I was there last month and I must have met the same guy! Pretty poor customer service, but hey let's face it... It's a muni!

[milesgiles]

> @Rohlio said:

> > @milesgiles said:

> > The range next to the strathtyrum/Eden is very good, grass bays and trackman. The guy on the desk less so.. told me the trackman bays were full and sent me up the other end.

> > Turned out there was no one else in the entire place lol

>

> Hahaha... I was there last month and I must have met the same guy! Pretty poor customer service, but hey let's face it... It's a muni!

 

Lol I assumed it was because I was English..

 

[the700level]

3 day St Andrew Ticket - 230

TOC (don’t do advanced, line up at 1am) - 190

Carnoustie - 250

Muirfield/Kingbarnes (pick one) - 270/288

 

And boom over budget

[El Gringo]

> @Rohlio said:

> > @gregkeller said:

> > So as an added question, does anyone know how early I can make reservations at carnoustie and kingsbarns? I know that the advanced booking for TOC opens up towards the end of august (already have it in my phone), but carnoustie doesn't mention how far in advance the times open, and kingsbarns just has a sheet online.

>

> I made a tee time for Kingsbarns 8 months ahead...nice thing with them is if you get on TOC through the ballot on the same day you had your k

> tee time they will totally reschedule you with great customer service.

 

You want to send a show of interest emails now to clubs now after a quick call to the clubs. Well run clubs will respond once their diaries are set. Just be sure to ask if your dates clash with long standing events.

 

BTW...Carnoustie has been taking bookings for a few weeks now. The club requires full payment within 72 hours of the booking! It's important to first decide what your priority courses are before booking!

 

Ciao