So really...re: divots...

[Mr. Bean]

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> Unless the bunkers are the same size of the machines, you should be able to figure out the margin.

>

 

Apparently you have never seen such bunkers. You just have to take my word.

[SNIPERBBB]

I've seen some terrible bunkers but the worst is usually whether the ball sitting on overhanging grass is touching sand or not.

[Hawkeye77]

> @bladehunter said:

> Let me ask this . How many who’d love to see relief from divots are actually playing the ball down every round ? Be honest.

>

> In casual rounds ball in hand is generally the first thing someone negotiates for. I don’t practice that way , but with certain players you almost have to give that t get them to play any sort of game.

>

> My point. If you aren’t playing it down always anyway , why do you care ? I think some just want to be justified in moving it.

 

And it almost NEVER happens.

 

Played several hundred rounds the last several years, maybe a handful of times total landed in a scrape from someone's shot. Big deal. Played the next one from there, enjoyed trying to hit it.

 

God forbid I might have shot one stroke higher. Boy that matters so much in the grand scheme of golf.

[Golfer4Life]

The more I read this thread, the more I realize I don’t t care what people do to enjoy their game.

[Vindog]

 

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > @Vindog said:

> > > Divots unnatural? They are as natural as the course itself. You are never guaranteed a great lie, even if you hit a good shot.

> > >

> > > Golf is life.

> >

> > So why repair pitch marks and spike marks on the green. They are just as natural as the course itself. You are never guaranteed a great lie, even if you are on the green.

> > Golf is life.

>

> This is like banging one's head against a concrete wall but I'll write this anyway.

>

> Rolling a ball on the green is very different from making a ball airborne as air has no undulations nor damages. I think it was Dave who explained why pitch marks on the green are nowadays allowed to be repaired. It would do you some good if you tried to understand the way things are instead of whining about unfairness you believe you are encountering.

>

> Or you can always stop playing golf as it seems to create such huge frustrations in you. Or learn how to make a stroke from a divot hole...

 

 

Indeed, it boils down to the situation of the required shot.

 

Also, in reply to Roadking, I have been pretty vocal against the repair of spike marks, and will likely remain that way.

 

[Shilgy]

> @bladehunter said:

> Let me ask this . How many who’d love to see relief from divots are actually playing the ball down every round ? Be honest.

>

> In casual rounds ball in hand is generally the first thing someone negotiates for. I don’t practice that way , but with certain players you almost have to give that t get them to play any sort of game.

>

> My point. If you aren’t playing it down always anyway , why do you care ? I think some just want to be justified in moving it.

 

You play at a strange club. All of the handicaps hullabaloo we have read about from you and now they want to play it up as well?

 

Why play golf if you're not playing by the rules?

[Roadking2003]

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:>

> > > The whole problem is when does a divot stop being a divot?

> > Whenever you say it stops. I've played lots of bunkers where the boundary was very difficult to define.

>

> There is a very simple test as to whether a ball is in a bunker or not.

 

And what is that test?

[Roadking2003]

> @bladehunter said:

> Let me ask this . How many who’d love to see relief from divots are actually playing the ball down every round ? Be honest.

>

> In casual rounds ball in hand is generally the first thing someone negotiates for. I don’t practice that way , but with certain players you almost have to give that t get them to play any sort of game.

>

> My point. If you aren’t playing it down always anyway , why do you care ? I think some just want to be justified in moving it.

 

We play it down unless the course is so wet that it's "cart path only".

[Roadking2003]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:> This is like banging one's head against a concrete wall but I'll write this anyway.

>

> Rolling a ball on the green is very different from making a ball airborne as air has no undulations nor damages. I think it was Dave who explained why pitch marks on the green are nowadays allowed to be repaired. It would do you some good if you tried to understand the way things are instead of whining about unfairness you believe you are encountering.

>

> Or you can always stop playing golf as it seems to create such huge frustrations in you. Or learn how to make a stroke from a divot hole...

 

If you keep banging your head your handicap will go way up. If you tried to understand what others are saying you wouldn't need to bang your head so much.

 

I don't think anybody is whining. I'm just pointing out the inconsistency of the "play it as it lies" rules. So stop banging your head!

 

Oh, BTW, nobody said rolling a ball on the green is the same as hitting a ball from the fairway. Try to improve your English comprehension.

[Roadking2003]

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> Unless the bunkers are the same size of the machines, you should be able to figure out the margin.

>

 

I have seen bunkers with sandy areas where the machines enter and exit. That makes it quite difficult to determine where the bunker ends because the machines drag sand across the edge.

[SNIPERBBB]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:>

> > > > The whole problem is when does a divot stop being a divot?

> > > Whenever you say it stops. I've played lots of bunkers where the boundary was very difficult to define.

> >

> > There is a very simple test as to whether a ball is in a bunker or not.

>

> And what is that test?

 

Test is, is the ball laying on sand,or obstruction, where there is supposed to be sand in the prepared area.

[Hawkeye77]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > Let me ask this . How many who’d love to see relief from divots are actually playing the ball down every round ? Be honest.

> >

> > In casual rounds ball in hand is generally the first thing someone negotiates for. I don’t practice that way , but with certain players you almost have to give that t get them to play any sort of game.

> >

> > My point. If you aren’t playing it down always anyway , why do you care ? I think some just want to be justified in moving it.

>

> We play it down unless the course is so wet that it's "cart path only".

 

Aha! You force people to hit from the cart path! Now I get it. ;-)

[Sawgrass]

> @Roadking2003 said:

 

> I don't think anybody is whining. I'm just pointing out the inconsistency of the "play it as it lies" rules.

 

I’m not sure that’s much of an accomplishment, unless it’s your purpose to admire those very useful inconsistencies.

[manku]

Because golf was created by sadists and is played by masochists.

 

[HatsForBats]

> @Hawkeye77 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > Let me ask this . How many who’d love to see relief from divots are actually playing the ball down every round ? Be honest.

> >

> > In casual rounds ball in hand is generally the first thing someone negotiates for. I don’t practice that way , but with certain players you almost have to give that t get them to play any sort of game.

> >

> > My point. If you aren’t playing it down always anyway , why do you care ? I think some just want to be justified in moving it.

>

> And it almost NEVER happens.

>

> Played several hundred rounds the last several years, maybe a handful of times total landed in a scrape from someone's shot. Big deal. Played the next one from there, enjoyed trying to hit it.

>

> God forbid I might have shot one stroke higher. Boy that matters so much in the grand scheme of golf.

 

I disagree that it almost NEVER happens. This year I have about 40 rounds in and distinctly remember 3 instances of playing from someone’s divot. Those stick in my mind because they were in matches that meant something to me. Nothing that in the Grand Scheme was all that important but still important to me in the moment. The last one was on the 18th hole after hitting a great tee shot on the hardest driving hole and number one handicap hole. The divot ran perpendicular to the green I was hitting to so it was even more challenging. We also had a player that had to hit a delicate green-side chip out of a very deep divot that ran perpendicular to the line to the hole.

 

A few years back I had at least 3, might have been 4, shots from a divot in one round at a public track with hard turf. At some courses it is not a big deal as the fairways are so plush the ground easily gives way. IMO at many average to worse condition public courses it is much more challenging and much more likely to have a more significant impact on an individual score. I kind of like the idea of allowing relief and then those that thoroughly enjoy the challenge could choose to still play out of the divot. Almost all of them seem to feel it is no big deal so I am sure they would still choose to play out of the divot if relief was allowed?

 

I can’t ever remember having someone on the course say they liked the current ruling on divots. It seems to be a very vocal minority but that is just my experience. Yours may vary.

[Sawgrass]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > Let me ask this . How many who’d love to see relief from divots are actually playing the ball down every round ? Be honest.

> > >

> > > In casual rounds ball in hand is generally the first thing someone negotiates for. I don’t practice that way , but with certain players you almost have to give that t get them to play any sort of game.

> > >

> > > My point. If you aren’t playing it down always anyway , why do you care ? I think some just want to be justified in moving it.

> >

> > And it almost NEVER happens.

> >

> > Played several hundred rounds the last several years, maybe a handful of times total landed in a scrape from someone's shot. Big deal. Played the next one from there, enjoyed trying to hit it.

> >

> > God forbid I might have shot one stroke higher. Boy that matters so much in the grand scheme of golf.

>

> I disagree that it almost NEVER happens. This year I have about 40 rounds in and distinctly remember 3 instances of playing from someone’s divot. Those stick in my mind because they were in matches that meant something to me. Nothing that in the Grand Scheme was all that important but still important to me in the moment. The last one was on the 18th hole after hitting a great tee shot on the hardest driving hole and number one handicap hole. The divot ran perpendicular to the green I was hitting to so it was even more challenging. We also had a player that had to hit a delicate green-side chip out of a very deep divot that ran perpendicular to the line to the hole.

>

> A few years back I had at least 3, might have been 4, shots from a divot in one round at a public track with hard turf. At some courses it is not a big deal as the fairways are so plush the ground easily gives way. IMO at many average to worse condition public courses it is much more challenging and much more likely to have a more significant impact on an individual score. I kind of like the idea of allowing relief and then those that thoroughly enjoy the challenge could choose to still play out of the divot. Almost all of them seem to feel it is no big deal so I am sure they would still choose to play out of the divot if relief was allowed?

>

> I can’t ever remember having someone on the course say they liked the current ruling on divots. It seems to be a very vocal minority but that is just my experience. Yours may vary.

 

"Liking" playing out of divot holes is a completely different concept than liking the rule (and its associated "play the course as you find it perspective). No one wants to be in one, but at least some people respect that you don't get free relief. No one likes being in the deep rough, either.

 

BTW, any of your opponents ever land in a divot hole?

[HatsForBats]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > Let me ask this . How many who’d love to see relief from divots are actually playing the ball down every round ? Be honest.

> > > >

> > > > In casual rounds ball in hand is generally the first thing someone negotiates for. I don’t practice that way , but with certain players you almost have to give that t get them to play any sort of game.

> > > >

> > > > My point. If you aren’t playing it down always anyway , why do you care ? I think some just want to be justified in moving it.

> > >

> > > And it almost NEVER happens.

> > >

> > > Played several hundred rounds the last several years, maybe a handful of times total landed in a scrape from someone's shot. Big deal. Played the next one from there, enjoyed trying to hit it.

> > >

> > > God forbid I might have shot one stroke higher. Boy that matters so much in the grand scheme of golf.

> >

> > I disagree that it almost NEVER happens. This year I have about 40 rounds in and distinctly remember 3 instances of playing from someone’s divot. Those stick in my mind because they were in matches that meant something to me. Nothing that in the Grand Scheme was all that important but still important to me in the moment. The last one was on the 18th hole after hitting a great tee shot on the hardest driving hole and number one handicap hole. The divot ran perpendicular to the green I was hitting to so it was even more challenging. We also had a player that had to hit a delicate green-side chip out of a very deep divot that ran perpendicular to the line to the hole.

> >

> > A few years back I had at least 3, might have been 4, shots from a divot in one round at a public track with hard turf. At some courses it is not a big deal as the fairways are so plush the ground easily gives way. IMO at many average to worse condition public courses it is much more challenging and much more likely to have a more significant impact on an individual score. I kind of like the idea of allowing relief and then those that thoroughly enjoy the challenge could choose to still play out of the divot. Almost all of them seem to feel it is no big deal so I am sure they would still choose to play out of the divot if relief was allowed?

> >

> > I can’t ever remember having someone on the course say they liked the current ruling on divots. It seems to be a very vocal minority but that is just my experience. Yours may vary.

>

> "Liking" playing out of divot holes is a completely different concept than liking the rule (and its associated "play the course as you find it perspective). No one wants to be in one, but at least some people respect that you don't get free relief. No one likes being in the deep rough, either.

>

> BTW, any of your opponents ever land in a divot hole?

 

Right, nobody likes being in the deep rough but a player can mostly avoid the deep rough with some accuracy. I have yet to meet a player that is accurate enough or has good enough eye site to miss a divot or a few in their intended landing zone.

 

Yes, of course I have had opponents land in a divot hole. If it were up to me they would get free relief. When they complain, and they all do, I agree with them that the rule stinks given their current situation (a match/round the means something in that moment).

 

 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

I've asked this more than a few times of the "free drop divot guys," but when does a divot stop being something that you're entitled relief? Who is the arbiter? When does it go from relief to just an excuse to fluff the ball?

[Hawkeye77]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > Let me ask this . How many who’d love to see relief from divots are actually playing the ball down every round ? Be honest.

> > >

> > > In casual rounds ball in hand is generally the first thing someone negotiates for. I don’t practice that way , but with certain players you almost have to give that t get them to play any sort of game.

> > >

> > > My point. If you aren’t playing it down always anyway , why do you care ? I think some just want to be justified in moving it.

> >

> > And it almost NEVER happens.

> >

> > Played several hundred rounds the last several years, maybe a handful of times total landed in a scrape from someone's shot. Big deal. Played the next one from there, enjoyed trying to hit it.

> >

> > God forbid I might have shot one stroke higher. Boy that matters so much in the grand scheme of golf.

>

> I disagree that it almost NEVER happens. This year I have about 40 rounds in and distinctly remember 3 instances of playing from someone’s divot. Those stick in my mind because they were in matches that meant something to me. Nothing that in the Grand Scheme was all that important but still important to me in the moment. The last one was on the 18th hole after hitting a great tee shot on the hardest driving hole and number one handicap hole. The divot ran perpendicular to the green I was hitting to so it was even more challenging. We also had a player that had to hit a delicate green-side chip out of a very deep divot that ran perpendicular to the line to the hole.

>

> A few years back I had at least 3, might have been 4, shots from a divot in one round at a public track with hard turf. At some courses it is not a big deal as the fairways are so plush the ground easily gives way. IMO at many average to worse condition public courses it is much more challenging and much more likely to have a more significant impact on an individual score. I kind of like the idea of allowing relief and then those that thoroughly enjoy the challenge could choose to still play out of the divot. Almost all of them seem to feel it is no big deal so I am sure they would still choose to play out of the divot if relief was allowed?

>

> I can’t ever remember having someone on the course say they liked the current ruling on divots. It seems to be a very vocal minority but that is just my experience. Yours may vary.

 

Enjoying the challenge of playing within the rules vs. passing up free relief under the rules aren't quite the same thing.

 

Allowing 14 drives and 4 layups per 18 and assuming you are hitting all your greens in regulation, that's barely one-half of one percent of your opportunities. Definitely varies with course conditions.

 

To the point above, it's still a definitional issue and not always an easy one.

 

I feel differently about divots filled by man with sand, and honestly if the USGA changed the rule to allow relief in general I wouldn't care all that much, but it's still just a "bad lie" and whether caused by a golf club, a goose, a squirrel, a clump of dandelions that didn't get sprayed, or Mother Nature in general anywhere on the course, just part of the game to me.

[Golfer4Life]

I think people should not take advantage of IRS rules or exemptions and paid their full amount of taxes. :)

[MtlJeff]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> I've asked this more than a few times of the "free drop divot guys," but when does a divot stop being something that you're entitled relief? Who is the arbiter? When does it go from relief to just an excuse to fluff the ball?

 

That was basically pointed out in the second or third reply and i agree, even if you wanted to change the rule the enforcement of it would be very challenging.

 

As others have said, golf is sometimes unfair. Divots are kind of part of that especially poorly repaired ones. I have also seen people in competitive play end up with unplayable lies in bunkers due to no raking and footprints. It sucks. But i understand why the rules are what they are

 

As someone who doesn't take divots and has a very sweepy swing, i actually feel like i benefit a bit from the rule because i'm comfortable hitting the shot. So whatever, i get that it doesn't seem "fair" but i'm OK with the rule

[Roadking2003]

> @Hawkeye77 said:

> And it almost NEVER happens.

>

> Played several hundred rounds the last several years, maybe a handful of times total landed in a scrape from someone's shot. Big deal. Played the next one from there, enjoyed trying to hit it.

>

> God forbid I might have shot one stroke higher. Boy that matters so much in the grand scheme of golf.

 

Ending up on a cart path almost NEVER happens, so just ignore that relief?

[Roadking2003]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> I've asked this more than a few times of the "free drop divot guys," but when does a divot stop being something that you're entitled relief? Who is the arbiter? When does it go from relief to just an excuse to fluff the ball?

 

The golfer.

 

I'm not sure what "fluff the ball" means. But the courses I usually play have fairways that are good enough so that you don't need to move the ball other than out of a divot.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > I've asked this more than a few times of the "free drop divot guys," but when does a divot stop being something that you're entitled relief? Who is the arbiter? When does it go from relief to just an excuse to fluff the ball?

>

> The golfer.

>

> I'm not sure what "fluff the ball" means. But the courses I usually play have fairways that are good enough so that you don't need to move the ball other than out of a divot.

 

Fluff, equals lift and place. No way the golfer can be left to decide that because you will have a some that exploit it, give themselves a preferred lie simply because there is a little brown or slight imperfection in the lie. They will give themselves advantage when not warranted.

 

If divots are a concern then agree within your group. The committee (your group if not a tournament is the committee) and can instute preferred lies. This cares for divots.

 

Only option I could ever see in a rules change--- allow1 LCP per round if preferred lies isn't in effect. That would care for the 1 bad luck divot and force users to use it judiciously.

[PappyVanWinkle53]

> @caniac6 said:

> I play almost every day, and am very rarely in a divot. I don't like it when I am in one, but I deal with it. Unless the rules change, I suggest you do the same.

 

Not many divots in the woods or the deep rough........I kid, I kid.

[Vindog]

> @"Crazy About Golf" said:

> > @caniac6 said:

> > I play almost every day, and am very rarely in a divot. I don't like it when I am in one, but I deal with it. Unless the rules change, I suggest you do the same.

>

> Not many divots in the woods or the deep rough........I kid, I kid.

 

Or as short as I hit it. Problem solved!

 

[Vindog]

40 rounds x 18 holes/round = 720 holes. Lets say there are 4 par3 per round so 720 - 160 = 560 fairway chances.

 

3 divot shots/560 = .00535 So 0.5% chance so far for hatsforbats. So like 1 out of 200...That's pretty close to almost never, imo.

[caniac6]

> @"Crazy About Golf" said:

> > @caniac6 said:

> > I play almost every day, and am very rarely in a divot. I don't like it when I am in one, but I deal with it. Unless the rules change, I suggest you do the same.

>

> Not many divots in the woods or the deep rough........I kid, I kid.

 

You'd be suprised!

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @Vindog said:

> 40 rounds x 18 holes/round = 720 holes. Lets say there are 4 par3 per round so 720 - 160 = 560 fairway chances.

>

> 3 divot shots/560 = .00535 So 0.5% chance so far for hatsforbats. So like 1 out of 200...That's pretty close to almost never, imo.

 

I like your calculation. I went likely two years without landing in a divot then hit 2 in two consecutive days. I guess I'm good now for at least a couple more years :)

[Hawkeye77]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > And it almost NEVER happens.

> >

> > Played several hundred rounds the last several years, maybe a handful of times total landed in a scrape from someone's shot. Big deal. Played the next one from there, enjoyed trying to hit it.

> >

> > God forbid I might have shot one stroke higher. Boy that matters so much in the grand scheme of golf.

>

> Ending up on a cart path almost NEVER happens, so just ignore that relief?

 

LOL, see cart path only response a few posts above - don't miss the light hearted sarcasm.