So really...re: divots...

[Sawgrass]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @Schulzmc said:

> > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > I’m one up after 17. My opponent stripes one down the middle, then I hook one 15 yards left of the fairway but into a remarkably good lie. We both hit it on and two putt for pars, so I win.

> > > >

> > > > My opponent says it’s hard to see how that is a fair test of skill. Said I should have put my ball in a divot hole in the rough so I would have had to play from the lie I deserved.

> > > >

> > > > It’s golf. Deal.

> > >

> > > I get that hitting it in the rough produces mixed results. Sometimes you catch a break. Other times you don’t. I love the challenge of putting a ball on the green from a fried egg in the trap. And in the same round I mentioned I hit a perfect wedge into a green, only to hit the pin dead center and bounce backward off the front of the green. That’s golf. And I dealt. But why is it so hard to get the perspective that a good drive in the fairway does not deserve an almost unplayable lie?

> >

> > Look, if I end up in a divot hole in the fairway I'm frustrated too. But I don't "get the perspective" that I "deserve" anything. I accept that golf has some random aspects. Many times they'll hurt me, sometimes they help me, but whichever way it goes I wouldn't want to change it. I love the mix of skill and luck. IMO people who advocate for more "justice" than we already have are asking for the wrong thing.

> >

> > My most frustrating moments come when I hit a cart path on the fly and the ball goes deep into the weeds, much further off course than it could have gotten had the cart path not been there. But I don't advocate for a do-over, or a drop at the cart path, when that unfairness hits.

>

> I don't understand. Why are you frustrated by being in a divot hole in the fairway if you truly feel you don't 'deserve' anything and love the mix of skill and luck? How would you feel if players could not fix divots on the green? Would landing in a divot on the green or having one in your path to the hole be frustrating and would you think you deserved better?

 

Thank you for your interest in my feelings, let me try to help you understand their basis.

 

I don't like having bad luck, but I accept having bad luck. I'm disappointed when it happens, but still enjoy attempting to rise to the challenge. I don't feel like I deserve protection from bad luck, I suppose it get it equally with all who play our game and we all have an equal chance to overcome it.

 

I think the ability to fix ball marks on the green is just fine. I acknowledge that fixing ball marks, and now even spike marks , is granting everyone a more level playing field and distinct from my preference regarding divot holes in the fairway (or rough), and enjoy that we treat shots from the green very differently than shots everywhere else. It's all well and good, but if the rules changed so that I wasn't allowed to fix the marks or clean my ball on the green I'd easily live with that. My preference is to leave things as they are, allowing the various skill sets required for ball striking and putting be put to use in these different ways. IMO it's all in a nice balance, particularly now that we sort of complete the sanctity of the putting green by allowing the repair of spike marks.

[Krt22]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > >

> > > Let me simplify it so even you **might** understand. What percent is 3 divots divided by 40 rounds?

> >

> > 5,329 ?

> >

> > I don't believe I addressed the coin question to you but, if you want me to answer your question, even though somebody already did the math, why don't you answer mine first ?

> >

> > And BTW, I see divots in the rough as well. In fact, even more in the rough because guys fill their divots in the fairway - but the rough ? Not so much.

> >

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > 40 rounds x 18 holes/round = 720 holes. Lets say there are 4 par3 per round so 720 - 160 = 560 fairway chances.

> > > >

> > > > 3 divot shots/560 = .00535 So 0.5% chance so far for hatsforbats. So like 1 out of 200...That's pretty close to almost never, imo.

> > >

> > > **You do realize that is a 7.5% chance per round.**.. right? So that would be about 34 Million times per year in the USA (450 Million'ish rounds per year). Your definition of 'almost never' is much, much different than mine. For the record I don't think the chance is anywhere near that great (7.5% per round). Just pointing out the flaw in your idea of 'almost never'.

> > >

> > > Even if it were only 3.4 million times per year in the USA that is very significant IMO.

> >

> > See above. YOU suggested it was a 7.5% chance per round.

> >

> > Still sticking with that ? LMAO

>

> 3 divots in 40 rounds is 7.5%. If you don't understand the math on that I don't know what to tell you. If you think I suggested that is the actual chance of any player landing in a divot during any round then I don't what to tell you there either. I was merely pointing out that what the other poster labelled as an insignificant amount when breaking it down per fairway was actually significant in the context of a single round.

 

How man GIRs do you normally hit from the fairway?

 

3 divots over 40 rounds assuming hitting 50% of fairways is around a 1% occurrence.

[HatsForBats]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > >

> > > > Let me simplify it so even you **might** understand. What percent is 3 divots divided by 40 rounds?

> > >

> > > 5,329 ?

> > >

> > > I don't believe I addressed the coin question to you but, if you want me to answer your question, even though somebody already did the math, why don't you answer mine first ?

> > >

> > > And BTW, I see divots in the rough as well. In fact, even more in the rough because guys fill their divots in the fairway - but the rough ? Not so much.

> > >

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > 40 rounds x 18 holes/round = 720 holes. Lets say there are 4 par3 per round so 720 - 160 = 560 fairway chances.

> > > > >

> > > > > 3 divot shots/560 = .00535 So 0.5% chance so far for hatsforbats. So like 1 out of 200...That's pretty close to almost never, imo.

> > > >

> > > > **You do realize that is a 7.5% chance per round.**.. right? So that would be about 34 Million times per year in the USA (450 Million'ish rounds per year). Your definition of 'almost never' is much, much different than mine. For the record I don't think the chance is anywhere near that great (7.5% per round). Just pointing out the flaw in your idea of 'almost never'.

> > > >

> > > > Even if it were only 3.4 million times per year in the USA that is very significant IMO.

> > >

> > > See above. YOU suggested it was a 7.5% chance per round.

> > >

> > > Still sticking with that ? LMAO

> >

> > 3 divots in 40 rounds is 7.5%. If you don't understand the math on that I don't know what to tell you. If you think I suggested that is the actual chance of any player landing in a divot during any round then I don't what to tell you there either. I was merely pointing out that what the other poster labelled as an insignificant amount when breaking it down per fairway was actually significant in the context of a single round.

>

> How man GIRs do you normally hit from the fairway?

>

> 3 divots over 4 rounds assuming hitting 50% of fairways is around a 1% occurrence.

 

Not sure what that has to do with it but I don't track that stat.

edit: that was posted in response to 'How man GIRs do you normally hit from the fairway?'. You must have edited your comment as I was hitting the quote link.

[Krt22]

I did edit it. 3 divots over 40 rounds in a worst case adds 3 shots total. Lets assume your scoring average is 80, over 40 rounds those 3 divots that led to bogey statistically have no impact on your index. They become even more insignificant when you factor in you very well might have made bogey anyway.

 

 

[HatsForBats]

> @Krt22 said:

> I did edit it. 3 divots over 40 rounds in a worst case adds 3 shots total. Lets assume your scoring average is 80, over 40 rounds those 3 divots that led to bogey statistically have no impact on your index. They become even more insignificant when you factor in you very well might have made bogey anyway.

>

>

 

What do I care about how it impacts players indexes? What I care about is it puts that particular player at a statiscal disadvantage in the given moment. The impact on indexes is about of zero importance.

[Krt22]

You claim its a statistical disadvantage, the actual statistics say otherwise. In the long run its statistically insignificant given the chances of it occurring are extremely low and when it does occur the actual long term impact on your scores is within the noise. At the end of the day what you score is all that matters, the scorecard doesn't have boxes for landing in a divot, getting 50 extra yards hitting the cartpath or a sprinkler head, hitting a tree that kicks the ball into the fairway, etc etc. Big tournaments span multiple days for a reason, to normalize "bad breaks".

[Hawkeye77]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > Give people relief from divot scrapes and next they'll be wanting a guaranteed option of a ball in the fairway after hitting OB . . . . hmmmmm.

>

> You have that option in 2019. Just add 2 strokes

 

Yes, that's why I said that!

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

> @Argonne69 said:

> One cannot compare the actions allowed on the greens vs. the general area. One can mark, lift, and clean their ball on the putting surface. I guess some folks will be wanting to do that in the general area next.

 

 

HaHa, except for the marking most already do!

[bigred90gt]

I’ve played golf for 15 years. Many of those, I played 300 or so rounds. I can count the number of divots I’ve been in on one hand.

[Vindog]

> > @"sui generis" said:

> > If only bad breaks were offset with good breaks!

> >

> > Wait, perhaps they often are . . . ball hit into the woods, hits a tree and caroms back into the fairway. Or, wow, that crappy swing we make hits the ball into the rough and low and behold we find it sitting up in a perfect lie.

>

> Good breaks really have nothing to do with it and it still baffles me when players try to use that argument. I want the individual competition to come down to players skill as much as possible. Certainly you cannot eliminate all bad or good breaks but this one just seems very simple and frankly common sense.

>

> I have to wonder how many of you that are so against the change would react if a rule, to allow relief from a fairway divot, was already in place for your full golfing life. If suddenly they changed it to not allow relief I have to think many of you would think it was not a good change. Me thinks you are stuck in the tradition of it rather than looking at with common sense.

 

 

Get a leg up on your competition: Practice hitting out of divot holes. You will end up with more skill.

 

I mean you'll very, very rarely be able to use that skill, but when you do you'll be ready!

 

 

 

[HatsForBats]

> @Krt22 said:

> You claim its a statistical disadvantage, the actual statistics say otherwise. In the long run its statistically insignificant given the chances of it occurring are extremely low and when it does occur the actual long term impact on your scores is within the noise. At the end of the day what you score is all that matters, the scorecard doesn't have boxes for landing in a divot, getting 50 extra yards hitting the cartpath or a sprinkler head, hitting a tree that kicks the ball into the fairway, etc etc. Big tournaments span multiple days for a reason, to normalize "bad breaks".

 

Ntot sure why keep talking about the long term impact. I have already agreed it is not significant. What I am stating is the short term impact is significant (ie. in the given moment). That's where it matters. As you say all that matters at the end of the day is what a player scored. If they end up in a divot is their score likely to be higher or lower than if they had played the exact same round but had not had a shot out of a divot? That's rhetorical because we all know they are more **likely** to have a higher score when having to play a shot out of a divot.

 

You are kidding yourself to think that big tournaments span multiple days to normalize 'bad breaks'.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Joke of the day:

Some day in the distant future @HatsForBats, @spartan6910 and @Roadking2003 are playing a competitive round and they ultimately end up sitting in the back of a car. Who is driving?

 

 

 

 

The cop is driving :smile:

Why? Well the new rule went into effect allowing free relief from fairway divots. One of them took relief but the others disagreed that it was still a divot and a fight ensued. The owner of the course called the cops.

 

All this other conversation is noise **until someone can adequately, repeatably and irrefutably** define when a divot stops being a divot.

[SNIPERBBB]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > You claim its a statistical disadvantage, the actual statistics say otherwise. In the long run its statistically insignificant given the chances of it occurring are extremely low and when it does occur the actual long term impact on your scores is within the noise. At the end of the day what you score is all that matters, the scorecard doesn't have boxes for landing in a divot, getting 50 extra yards hitting the cartpath or a sprinkler head, hitting a tree that kicks the ball into the fairway, etc etc. Big tournaments span multiple days for a reason, to normalize "bad breaks".

>

> Ntot sure why keep talking about the long term impact. I have already agreed it is not significant. What I am stating is the short term impact is significant (ie. in the given moment). That's where it matters. As you say all that matters at the end of the day is what a player scored. If they end up in a divot is their score likely to be higher or lower than if they had played the exact same round but had not had a shot out of a divot? That's rhetorical because we all know they are more **likely** to have a higher score when having to play a shot out of a divot.

>

> You are kidding yourself to think that big tournaments span multiple days to normalize 'bad breaks'.

 

Good breaks too..most guys with the low round of the week rarely win. It does happen but they have to back it up with more good rounds.

[nsxguy]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> Joke of the day:

> Some day in the distant future @HatsForBats, @spartan6910 and @Roadking2003 are playing a competitive round and they ultimately end up sitting in the back of a car. Who is driving?

>

>

>

>

> The cop is driving :smile:

> Why? Well the new rule went into effect allowing free relief from fairway divots. One of them took relief but the others disagreed that it was still a divot and a fight ensued. The owner of the course called the cops.

>

> All this other conversation is noise **until someone can adequately, repeatably and irrefutably** define when a divot stops being a divot.

 

LOL

 


 

[Krt22]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > You claim its a statistical disadvantage, the actual statistics say otherwise. In the long run its statistically insignificant given the chances of it occurring are extremely low and when it does occur the actual long term impact on your scores is within the noise. At the end of the day what you score is all that matters, the scorecard doesn't have boxes for landing in a divot, getting 50 extra yards hitting the cartpath or a sprinkler head, hitting a tree that kicks the ball into the fairway, etc etc. Big tournaments span multiple days for a reason, to normalize "bad breaks".

>

> Ntot sure why keep talking about the long term impact. I have already agreed it is not significant. What I am stating is the short term impact is significant (ie. in the given moment). That's where it matters. As you say all that matters at the end of the day is what a player scored. If they end up in a divot is their score likely to be higher or lower than if they had played the exact same round but had not had a shot out of a divot? That's rhetorical because we all know they are more **likely** to have a higher score when having to play a shot out of a divot.

>

> You are kidding yourself to think that big tournaments span multiple days to normalize 'bad breaks'.

 

So your score is 1 stroke higher 1 round out of 100+, are you playing big money games on the regular that typically come down to a single stroke? Your claim of 3 divots in 40 rounds is honestly really just bad luck and a statistical outlier. I have landed in 2 divots in the last 4 years, it's in the noise.

[HatsForBats]

> @Vindog said:

> > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > If only bad breaks were offset with good breaks!

> > >

> > > Wait, perhaps they often are . . . ball hit into the woods, hits a tree and caroms back into the fairway. Or, wow, that crappy swing we make hits the ball into the rough and low and behold we find it sitting up in a perfect lie.

> >

> > Good breaks really have nothing to do with it and it still baffles me when players try to use that argument. I want the individual competition to come down to players skill as much as possible. Certainly you cannot eliminate all bad or good breaks but this one just seems very simple and frankly common sense.

> >

> > I have to wonder how many of you that are so against the change would react if a rule, to allow relief from a fairway divot, was already in place for your full golfing life. If suddenly they changed it to not allow relief I have to think many of you would think it was not a good change. Me thinks you are stuck in the tradition of it rather than looking at with common sense.

>

>

> Get a leg up on your competition: Practice hitting out of divot holes. You will end up with more skill.

>

> I mean you'll very, very rarely be able to use that skill, but when you do you'll be ready!

>

>

>

 

Yep, you can practice it and be better at it than if you had no practice at it. That still doesn't change the fact that the player will still be statistically at a disadvantage over if they had not stopped in the divot.

[HatsForBats]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @Krt22 said:

> > > You claim its a statistical disadvantage, the actual statistics say otherwise. In the long run its statistically insignificant given the chances of it occurring are extremely low and when it does occur the actual long term impact on your scores is within the noise. At the end of the day what you score is all that matters, the scorecard doesn't have boxes for landing in a divot, getting 50 extra yards hitting the cartpath or a sprinkler head, hitting a tree that kicks the ball into the fairway, etc etc. Big tournaments span multiple days for a reason, to normalize "bad breaks".

> >

> > Ntot sure why keep talking about the long term impact. I have already agreed it is not significant. What I am stating is the short term impact is significant (ie. in the given moment). That's where it matters. As you say all that matters at the end of the day is what a player scored. If they end up in a divot is their score likely to be higher or lower than if they had played the exact same round but had not had a shot out of a divot? That's rhetorical because we all know they are more **likely** to have a higher score when having to play a shot out of a divot.

> >

> > You are kidding yourself to think that big tournaments span multiple days to normalize 'bad breaks'.

>

> So your score is 1 stroke higher 1 round out of 100+, are you playing big money games on the regular that typically come down to a single stroke? Your claim of 3 divots in 40 rounds is honestly really just bad luck and a statistical outlier. I have landed in 2 divots in the last 4 years, it's in the noise.

 

It doesn't matter if it is 1 in 100, 200 or 300 rounds. It still happens enough to be an issue IMO. 1 in 300 would be an estimated 2 Million + times per year in the USA. It's in the noise until it happens to someone in a competition that means something to them. Whether that is a just for giggles competition, small stakes game, weekly league, club championship or high stakes game doesn't really matter.

[davep043]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > You claim its a statistical disadvantage, the actual statistics say otherwise. In the long run its statistically insignificant given the chances of it occurring are extremely low and when it does occur the actual long term impact on your scores is within the noise. At the end of the day what you score is all that matters, the scorecard doesn't have boxes for landing in a divot, getting 50 extra yards hitting the cartpath or a sprinkler head, hitting a tree that kicks the ball into the fairway, etc etc. Big tournaments span multiple days for a reason, to normalize "bad breaks".

> > >

> > > Ntot sure why keep talking about the long term impact. I have already agreed it is not significant. What I am stating is the short term impact is significant (ie. in the given moment). That's where it matters. As you say all that matters at the end of the day is what a player scored. If they end up in a divot is their score likely to be higher or lower than if they had played the exact same round but had not had a shot out of a divot? That's rhetorical because we all know they are more **likely** to have a higher score when having to play a shot out of a divot.

> > >

> > > You are kidding yourself to think that big tournaments span multiple days to normalize 'bad breaks'.

> >

> > So your score is 1 stroke higher 1 round out of 100+, are you playing big money games on the regular that typically come down to a single stroke? Your claim of 3 divots in 40 rounds is honestly really just bad luck and a statistical outlier. I have landed in 2 divots in the last 4 years, it's in the noise.

>

> It doesn't matter if it is 1 in 100, 200 or 300 rounds. It still happens enough to be an issue IMO. 1 in 300 would be an estimated 2 Million + times per year in the USA. It's in the noise until it happens to someone in a competition that means something to them. Whether that is a just for giggles competition, small stakes game, weekly league, club championship or high stakes game doesn't really matter.

 

Discussing the frequency, and the extent of the impact, does nothing to come up with a solution to the perceived problem. Until you can define the issue, including the time when a divot hole ceases to be an issue, there's no solution short of playing LCP at all times in the fairway, and that's simply unacceptable to me. I'd much rather deal with the occasional instance where a divot hole puts me at a (usually slight) disadvantage.

[SnapHooker_307]

> @davep043 said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > You claim its a statistical disadvantage, the actual statistics say otherwise. In the long run its statistically insignificant given the chances of it occurring are extremely low and when it does occur the actual long term impact on your scores is within the noise. At the end of the day what you score is all that matters, the scorecard doesn't have boxes for landing in a divot, getting 50 extra yards hitting the cartpath or a sprinkler head, hitting a tree that kicks the ball into the fairway, etc etc. Big tournaments span multiple days for a reason, to normalize "bad breaks".

> > > >

> > > > Ntot sure why keep talking about the long term impact. I have already agreed it is not significant. What I am stating is the short term impact is significant (ie. in the given moment). That's where it matters. As you say all that matters at the end of the day is what a player scored. If they end up in a divot is their score likely to be higher or lower than if they had played the exact same round but had not had a shot out of a divot? That's rhetorical because we all know they are more **likely** to have a higher score when having to play a shot out of a divot.

> > > >

> > > > You are kidding yourself to think that big tournaments span multiple days to normalize 'bad breaks'.

> > >

> > > So your score is 1 stroke higher 1 round out of 100+, are you playing big money games on the regular that typically come down to a single stroke? Your claim of 3 divots in 40 rounds is honestly really just bad luck and a statistical outlier. I have landed in 2 divots in the last 4 years, it's in the noise.

> >

> > It doesn't matter if it is 1 in 100, 200 or 300 rounds. It still happens enough to be an issue IMO. 1 in 300 would be an estimated 2 Million + times per year in the USA. It's in the noise until it happens to someone in a competition that means something to them. Whether that is a just for giggles competition, small stakes game, weekly league, club championship or high stakes game doesn't really matter.

>

> Discussing the frequency, and the extent of the impact, does nothing to come up with a solution to the perceived problem. Until you can define the issue, including the time when a divot hole ceases to be an issue, there's no solution short of playing LCP at all times in the fairway, and that's simply unacceptable to me. I'd much rather deal with the occasional instance where a divot hole puts me at a (usually slight) disadvantage.

 

That is probably the only way to truly take care of this. But, if we are going to make a change to adjust for landing in a divot and having an unfortunate break, are we also going to start throwing the ball back in the bunker if you hit a rake and bounce sideways to a fortunate lie instead of being stuck on the lip of a the bunker? Or if you bounce off a fence and land back in bounds because it wasn't a true test of skill?

[HatsForBats]

> @davep043 said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > You claim its a statistical disadvantage, the actual statistics say otherwise. In the long run its statistically insignificant given the chances of it occurring are extremely low and when it does occur the actual long term impact on your scores is within the noise. At the end of the day what you score is all that matters, the scorecard doesn't have boxes for landing in a divot, getting 50 extra yards hitting the cartpath or a sprinkler head, hitting a tree that kicks the ball into the fairway, etc etc. Big tournaments span multiple days for a reason, to normalize "bad breaks".

> > > >

> > > > Ntot sure why keep talking about the long term impact. I have already agreed it is not significant. What I am stating is the short term impact is significant (ie. in the given moment). That's where it matters. As you say all that matters at the end of the day is what a player scored. If they end up in a divot is their score likely to be higher or lower than if they had played the exact same round but had not had a shot out of a divot? That's rhetorical because we all know they are more **likely** to have a higher score when having to play a shot out of a divot.

> > > >

> > > > You are kidding yourself to think that big tournaments span multiple days to normalize 'bad breaks'.

> > >

> > > So your score is 1 stroke higher 1 round out of 100+, are you playing big money games on the regular that typically come down to a single stroke? Your claim of 3 divots in 40 rounds is honestly really just bad luck and a statistical outlier. I have landed in 2 divots in the last 4 years, it's in the noise.

> >

> > It doesn't matter if it is 1 in 100, 200 or 300 rounds. It still happens enough to be an issue IMO. 1 in 300 would be an estimated 2 Million + times per year in the USA. It's in the noise until it happens to someone in a competition that means something to them. Whether that is a just for giggles competition, small stakes game, weekly league, club championship or high stakes game doesn't really matter.

>

> Discussing the frequency, and the extent of the impact, does nothing to come up with a solution to the perceived problem. Until you can define the issue, including the time when a divot hole ceases to be an issue, there's no solution short of playing LCP at all times in the fairway, and that's simply unacceptable to me. I'd much rather deal with the occasional instance where a divot hole puts me at a (usually slight) disadvantage.

 

Last year when did a divot on the green cease to be a divot? How did they define a divot on the green?

[SNIPERBBB]

When there was no longer an indentation on the green. This one is isn't the relevant to the divot issue as you were allowed to repair a ball mark but you hardly ever got one repaired perfectly so it was flush so they are generally repaired constantly until the green is plugged or some good rains come in. You we're never allowed relief from a ball mark. You just had the right to repair it.

[davep043]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > You claim its a statistical disadvantage, the actual statistics say otherwise. In the long run its statistically insignificant given the chances of it occurring are extremely low and when it does occur the actual long term impact on your scores is within the noise. At the end of the day what you score is all that matters, the scorecard doesn't have boxes for landing in a divot, getting 50 extra yards hitting the cartpath or a sprinkler head, hitting a tree that kicks the ball into the fairway, etc etc. Big tournaments span multiple days for a reason, to normalize "bad breaks".

> > > > >

> > > > > Ntot sure why keep talking about the long term impact. I have already agreed it is not significant. What I am stating is the short term impact is significant (ie. in the given moment). That's where it matters. As you say all that matters at the end of the day is what a player scored. If they end up in a divot is their score likely to be higher or lower than if they had played the exact same round but had not had a shot out of a divot? That's rhetorical because we all know they are more **likely** to have a higher score when having to play a shot out of a divot.

> > > > >

> > > > > You are kidding yourself to think that big tournaments span multiple days to normalize 'bad breaks'.

> > > >

> > > > So your score is 1 stroke higher 1 round out of 100+, are you playing big money games on the regular that typically come down to a single stroke? Your claim of 3 divots in 40 rounds is honestly really just bad luck and a statistical outlier. I have landed in 2 divots in the last 4 years, it's in the noise.

> > >

> > > It doesn't matter if it is 1 in 100, 200 or 300 rounds. It still happens enough to be an issue IMO. 1 in 300 would be an estimated 2 Million + times per year in the USA. It's in the noise until it happens to someone in a competition that means something to them. Whether that is a just for giggles competition, small stakes game, weekly league, club championship or high stakes game doesn't really matter.

> >

> > Discussing the frequency, and the extent of the impact, does nothing to come up with a solution to the perceived problem. Until you can define the issue, including the time when a divot hole ceases to be an issue, there's no solution short of playing LCP at all times in the fairway, and that's simply unacceptable to me. I'd much rather deal with the occasional instance where a divot hole puts me at a (usually slight) disadvantage.

>

> Last year when did a divot on the green cease to be a divot? How did they define a divot on the green?

 

Greens are a special place, with special rules, rules that don't apply elsewhere. Beginning in 1960, the greens started to become an area where you were allowed to do things that you were not allowed to do elsewhere, including improving your line of play by repairing ballmarks. That changed further this January, when you were allowed to repair "damage". There has never been a definition of divot, the only term used is damage. As the rule is written, you can repair damage on the green at any time. Damage is defined in 13.1.c. If you can see it, and it fits the definition, you can repair it. Have you actually looked at these rules yourself? None of them say anything about improving your line of play, or lie, or area of intended swing when you're not on the green.

[Mr. Bean]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > You claim its a statistical disadvantage, the actual statistics say otherwise. In the long run its statistically insignificant given the chances of it occurring are extremely low and when it does occur the actual long term impact on your scores is within the noise. At the end of the day what you score is all that matters, the scorecard doesn't have boxes for landing in a divot, getting 50 extra yards hitting the cartpath or a sprinkler head, hitting a tree that kicks the ball into the fairway, etc etc. Big tournaments span multiple days for a reason, to normalize "bad breaks".

> > > > >

> > > > > Ntot sure why keep talking about the long term impact. I have already agreed it is not significant. What I am stating is the short term impact is significant (ie. in the given moment). That's where it matters. As you say all that matters at the end of the day is what a player scored. If they end up in a divot is their score likely to be higher or lower than if they had played the exact same round but had not had a shot out of a divot? That's rhetorical because we all know they are more **likely** to have a higher score when having to play a shot out of a divot.

> > > > >

> > > > > You are kidding yourself to think that big tournaments span multiple days to normalize 'bad breaks'.

> > > >

> > > > So your score is 1 stroke higher 1 round out of 100+, are you playing big money games on the regular that typically come down to a single stroke? Your claim of 3 divots in 40 rounds is honestly really just bad luck and a statistical outlier. I have landed in 2 divots in the last 4 years, it's in the noise.

> > >

> > > It doesn't matter if it is 1 in 100, 200 or 300 rounds. It still happens enough to be an issue IMO. 1 in 300 would be an estimated 2 Million + times per year in the USA. It's in the noise until it happens to someone in a competition that means something to them. Whether that is a just for giggles competition, small stakes game, weekly league, club championship or high stakes game doesn't really matter.

> >

> > Discussing the frequency, and the extent of the impact, does nothing to come up with a solution to the perceived problem. Until you can define the issue, including the time when a divot hole ceases to be an issue, there's no solution short of playing LCP at all times in the fairway, and that's simply unacceptable to me. I'd much rather deal with the occasional instance where a divot hole puts me at a (usually slight) disadvantage.

>

> Last year when did a divot on the green cease to be a divot? How did they define a divot on the green?

 

Hats, stop playing golf and move on.

[HatsForBats]

> @davep043 said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @davep043 said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > > You claim its a statistical disadvantage, the actual statistics say otherwise. In the long run its statistically insignificant given the chances of it occurring are extremely low and when it does occur the actual long term impact on your scores is within the noise. At the end of the day what you score is all that matters, the scorecard doesn't have boxes for landing in a divot, getting 50 extra yards hitting the cartpath or a sprinkler head, hitting a tree that kicks the ball into the fairway, etc etc. Big tournaments span multiple days for a reason, to normalize "bad breaks".

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Ntot sure why keep talking about the long term impact. I have already agreed it is not significant. What I am stating is the short term impact is significant (ie. in the given moment). That's where it matters. As you say all that matters at the end of the day is what a player scored. If they end up in a divot is their score likely to be higher or lower than if they had played the exact same round but had not had a shot out of a divot? That's rhetorical because we all know they are more **likely** to have a higher score when having to play a shot out of a divot.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You are kidding yourself to think that big tournaments span multiple days to normalize 'bad breaks'.

> > > > >

> > > > > So your score is 1 stroke higher 1 round out of 100+, are you playing big money games on the regular that typically come down to a single stroke? Your claim of 3 divots in 40 rounds is honestly really just bad luck and a statistical outlier. I have landed in 2 divots in the last 4 years, it's in the noise.

> > > >

> > > > It doesn't matter if it is 1 in 100, 200 or 300 rounds. It still happens enough to be an issue IMO. 1 in 300 would be an estimated 2 Million + times per year in the USA. It's in the noise until it happens to someone in a competition that means something to them. Whether that is a just for giggles competition, small stakes game, weekly league, club championship or high stakes game doesn't really matter.

> > >

> > > Discussing the frequency, and the extent of the impact, does nothing to come up with a solution to the perceived problem. Until you can define the issue, including the time when a divot hole ceases to be an issue, there's no solution short of playing LCP at all times in the fairway, and that's simply unacceptable to me. I'd much rather deal with the occasional instance where a divot hole puts me at a (usually slight) disadvantage.

> >

> > Last year when did a divot on the green cease to be a divot? How did they define a divot on the green?

>

> Greens are a special place, with special rules, rules that don't apply elsewhere. Beginning in 1960, the greens started to become an area where you were allowed to do things that you were not allowed to do elsewhere, including improving your line of play by repairing ballmarks. That changed further this January, when you were allowed to repair "damage". There has never been a definition of divot, the only term used is damage. As the rule is written, you can repair damage on the green at any time. Damage is defined in 13.1.c. If you can see it, and it fits the definition, you can repair it. Have you actually looked at these rules yourself? None of them say anything about improving your line of play, or lie, or area of intended swing when you're not on the green.

 

So a divot was undefined but players were able to fairly eaily determine what they could repair? I would argue that the fairways are a special place as well. Other than tradition why couldn't they also be given special consideration? Areas where the grass is at fairway height or less used to be given special consideration, correct?

[davep043]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > > > You claim its a statistical disadvantage, the actual statistics say otherwise. In the long run its statistically insignificant given the chances of it occurring are extremely low and when it does occur the actual long term impact on your scores is within the noise. At the end of the day what you score is all that matters, the scorecard doesn't have boxes for landing in a divot, getting 50 extra yards hitting the cartpath or a sprinkler head, hitting a tree that kicks the ball into the fairway, etc etc. Big tournaments span multiple days for a reason, to normalize "bad breaks".

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Ntot sure why keep talking about the long term impact. I have already agreed it is not significant. What I am stating is the short term impact is significant (ie. in the given moment). That's where it matters. As you say all that matters at the end of the day is what a player scored. If they end up in a divot is their score likely to be higher or lower than if they had played the exact same round but had not had a shot out of a divot? That's rhetorical because we all know they are more **likely** to have a higher score when having to play a shot out of a divot.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You are kidding yourself to think that big tournaments span multiple days to normalize 'bad breaks'.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So your score is 1 stroke higher 1 round out of 100+, are you playing big money games on the regular that typically come down to a single stroke? Your claim of 3 divots in 40 rounds is honestly really just bad luck and a statistical outlier. I have landed in 2 divots in the last 4 years, it's in the noise.

> > > > >

> > > > > It doesn't matter if it is 1 in 100, 200 or 300 rounds. It still happens enough to be an issue IMO. 1 in 300 would be an estimated 2 Million + times per year in the USA. It's in the noise until it happens to someone in a competition that means something to them. Whether that is a just for giggles competition, small stakes game, weekly league, club championship or high stakes game doesn't really matter.

> > > >

> > > > Discussing the frequency, and the extent of the impact, does nothing to come up with a solution to the perceived problem. Until you can define the issue, including the time when a divot hole ceases to be an issue, there's no solution short of playing LCP at all times in the fairway, and that's simply unacceptable to me. I'd much rather deal with the occasional instance where a divot hole puts me at a (usually slight) disadvantage.

> > >

> > > Last year when did a divot on the green cease to be a divot? How did they define a divot on the green?

> >

> > Greens are a special place, with special rules, rules that don't apply elsewhere. Beginning in 1960, the greens started to become an area where you were allowed to do things that you were not allowed to do elsewhere, including improving your line of play by repairing ballmarks. That changed further this January, when you were allowed to repair "damage". There has never been a definition of divot, the only term used is damage. As the rule is written, you can repair damage on the green at any time. Damage is defined in 13.1.c. If you can see it, and it fits the definition, you can repair it. Have you actually looked at these rules yourself? None of them say anything about improving your line of play, or lie, or area of intended swing when you're not on the green.

>

> So a divot was undefined but players were able to fairly eaily determine what they could repair? I would argue that the fairways are a special place as well. Other than tradition why couldn't they also be given special consideration? Areas where the grass is at fairway height or less used to be given special consideration, correct?

 

Let me ask you, is a player going to take a divot on a green? I can't say I've seen a divot on the green, never had to play through one, never had to hit out of one, never had to think about repairing one. Have you?

Separately, do you propose to treat a ball in the fairway exactly the same as a ball on the green? Or perhaps we should treat a ball anywhere on the golf course exactly the same as on the green?

So far, you are asking questions, but not answering any of ours. Please tell us exactly how you would propose to address the "problem" of divots.

[SNIPERBBB]

> @davep043 said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @davep043 said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > > > > You claim its a statistical disadvantage, the actual statistics say otherwise. In the long run its statistically insignificant given the chances of it occurring are extremely low and when it does occur the actual long term impact on your scores is within the noise. At the end of the day what you score is all that matters, the scorecard doesn't have boxes for landing in a divot, getting 50 extra yards hitting the cartpath or a sprinkler head, hitting a tree that kicks the ball into the fairway, etc etc. Big tournaments span multiple days for a reason, to normalize "bad breaks".

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Ntot sure why keep talking about the long term impact. I have already agreed it is not significant. What I am stating is the short term impact is significant (ie. in the given moment). That's where it matters. As you say all that matters at the end of the day is what a player scored. If they end up in a divot is their score likely to be higher or lower than if they had played the exact same round but had not had a shot out of a divot? That's rhetorical because we all know they are more **likely** to have a higher score when having to play a shot out of a divot.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You are kidding yourself to think that big tournaments span multiple days to normalize 'bad breaks'.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So your score is 1 stroke higher 1 round out of 100+, are you playing big money games on the regular that typically come down to a single stroke? Your claim of 3 divots in 40 rounds is honestly really just bad luck and a statistical outlier. I have landed in 2 divots in the last 4 years, it's in the noise.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It doesn't matter if it is 1 in 100, 200 or 300 rounds. It still happens enough to be an issue IMO. 1 in 300 would be an estimated 2 Million + times per year in the USA. It's in the noise until it happens to someone in a competition that means something to them. Whether that is a just for giggles competition, small stakes game, weekly league, club championship or high stakes game doesn't really matter.

> > > > >

> > > > > Discussing the frequency, and the extent of the impact, does nothing to come up with a solution to the perceived problem. Until you can define the issue, including the time when a divot hole ceases to be an issue, there's no solution short of playing LCP at all times in the fairway, and that's simply unacceptable to me. I'd much rather deal with the occasional instance where a divot hole puts me at a (usually slight) disadvantage.

> > > >

> > > > Last year when did a divot on the green cease to be a divot? How did they define a divot on the green?

> > >

> > > Greens are a special place, with special rules, rules that don't apply elsewhere. Beginning in 1960, the greens started to become an area where you were allowed to do things that you were not allowed to do elsewhere, including improving your line of play by repairing ballmarks. That changed further this January, when you were allowed to repair "damage". There has never been a definition of divot, the only term used is damage. As the rule is written, you can repair damage on the green at any time. Damage is defined in 13.1.c. If you can see it, and it fits the definition, you can repair it. Have you actually looked at these rules yourself? None of them say anything about improving your line of play, or lie, or area of intended swing when you're not on the green.

> >

> > So a divot was undefined but players were able to fairly eaily determine what they could repair? I would argue that the fairways are a special place as well. Other than tradition why couldn't they also be given special consideration? Areas where the grass is at fairway height or less used to be given special consideration, correct?

>

> Let me ask you, is a player going to take a divot on a green? I can't say I've seen a divot on the green, never had to play through one, never had to hit out of one, never had to think about repairing one. Have you?

> Separately, do you propose to treat a ball in the fairway exactly the same as a ball on the green? Or perhaps we should treat a ball anywhere on the golf course exactly the same as on the green?

> So far, you are asking questions, but not answering any of ours. Please tell us exactly how you would propose to address the "problem" of divots.

 

I believe he is trying to conflate pitch/ball marks with divots.

[davep043]

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > > > > > You claim its a statistical disadvantage, the actual statistics say otherwise. In the long run its statistically insignificant given the chances of it occurring are extremely low and when it does occur the actual long term impact on your scores is within the noise. At the end of the day what you score is all that matters, the scorecard doesn't have boxes for landing in a divot, getting 50 extra yards hitting the cartpath or a sprinkler head, hitting a tree that kicks the ball into the fairway, etc etc. Big tournaments span multiple days for a reason, to normalize "bad breaks".

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Ntot sure why keep talking about the long term impact. I have already agreed it is not significant. What I am stating is the short term impact is significant (ie. in the given moment). That's where it matters. As you say all that matters at the end of the day is what a player scored. If they end up in a divot is their score likely to be higher or lower than if they had played the exact same round but had not had a shot out of a divot? That's rhetorical because we all know they are more **likely** to have a higher score when having to play a shot out of a divot.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > You are kidding yourself to think that big tournaments span multiple days to normalize 'bad breaks'.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > So your score is 1 stroke higher 1 round out of 100+, are you playing big money games on the regular that typically come down to a single stroke? Your claim of 3 divots in 40 rounds is honestly really just bad luck and a statistical outlier. I have landed in 2 divots in the last 4 years, it's in the noise.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It doesn't matter if it is 1 in 100, 200 or 300 rounds. It still happens enough to be an issue IMO. 1 in 300 would be an estimated 2 Million + times per year in the USA. It's in the noise until it happens to someone in a competition that means something to them. Whether that is a just for giggles competition, small stakes game, weekly league, club championship or high stakes game doesn't really matter.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Discussing the frequency, and the extent of the impact, does nothing to come up with a solution to the perceived problem. Until you can define the issue, including the time when a divot hole ceases to be an issue, there's no solution short of playing LCP at all times in the fairway, and that's simply unacceptable to me. I'd much rather deal with the occasional instance where a divot hole puts me at a (usually slight) disadvantage.

> > > > >

> > > > > Last year when did a divot on the green cease to be a divot? How did they define a divot on the green?

> > > >

> > > > Greens are a special place, with special rules, rules that don't apply elsewhere. Beginning in 1960, the greens started to become an area where you were allowed to do things that you were not allowed to do elsewhere, including improving your line of play by repairing ballmarks. That changed further this January, when you were allowed to repair "damage". There has never been a definition of divot, the only term used is damage. As the rule is written, you can repair damage on the green at any time. Damage is defined in 13.1.c. If you can see it, and it fits the definition, you can repair it. Have you actually looked at these rules yourself? None of them say anything about improving your line of play, or lie, or area of intended swing when you're not on the green.

> > >

> > > So a divot was undefined but players were able to fairly eaily determine what they could repair? I would argue that the fairways are a special place as well. Other than tradition why couldn't they also be given special consideration? Areas where the grass is at fairway height or less used to be given special consideration, correct?

> >

> > Let me ask you, is a player going to take a divot on a green? I can't say I've seen a divot on the green, never had to play through one, never had to hit out of one, never had to think about repairing one. Have you?

> > Separately, do you propose to treat a ball in the fairway exactly the same as a ball on the green? Or perhaps we should treat a ball anywhere on the golf course exactly the same as on the green?

> > So far, you are asking questions, but not answering any of ours. Please tell us exactly how you would propose to address the "problem" of divots.

>

> I believe he is trying to conflate pitch/ball marks with divots.

 

In that case, he has no idea what the various terms actually mean. He may have relatively little knowledge of what the rules actually say right now, or what they said in previous versions. And he has shown absolutely no indication that he is interested in providing a solution, he just wants to whine.

[HatsForBats]

> @davep043 said:

> > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > > @davep043 said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > You claim its a statistical disadvantage, the actual statistics say otherwise. In the long run its statistically insignificant given the chances of it occurring are extremely low and when it does occur the actual long term impact on your scores is within the noise. At the end of the day what you score is all that matters, the scorecard doesn't have boxes for landing in a divot, getting 50 extra yards hitting the cartpath or a sprinkler head, hitting a tree that kicks the ball into the fairway, etc etc. Big tournaments span multiple days for a reason, to normalize "bad breaks".

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Ntot sure why keep talking about the long term impact. I have already agreed it is not significant. What I am stating is the short term impact is significant (ie. in the given moment). That's where it matters. As you say all that matters at the end of the day is what a player scored. If they end up in a divot is their score likely to be higher or lower than if they had played the exact same round but had not had a shot out of a divot? That's rhetorical because we all know they are more **likely** to have a higher score when having to play a shot out of a divot.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > You are kidding yourself to think that big tournaments span multiple days to normalize 'bad breaks'.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > So your score is 1 stroke higher 1 round out of 100+, are you playing big money games on the regular that typically come down to a single stroke? Your claim of 3 divots in 40 rounds is honestly really just bad luck and a statistical outlier. I have landed in 2 divots in the last 4 years, it's in the noise.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It doesn't matter if it is 1 in 100, 200 or 300 rounds. It still happens enough to be an issue IMO. 1 in 300 would be an estimated 2 Million + times per year in the USA. It's in the noise until it happens to someone in a competition that means something to them. Whether that is a just for giggles competition, small stakes game, weekly league, club championship or high stakes game doesn't really matter.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Discussing the frequency, and the extent of the impact, does nothing to come up with a solution to the perceived problem. Until you can define the issue, including the time when a divot hole ceases to be an issue, there's no solution short of playing LCP at all times in the fairway, and that's simply unacceptable to me. I'd much rather deal with the occasional instance where a divot hole puts me at a (usually slight) disadvantage.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Last year when did a divot on the green cease to be a divot? How did they define a divot on the green?

> > > > >

> > > > > Greens are a special place, with special rules, rules that don't apply elsewhere. Beginning in 1960, the greens started to become an area where you were allowed to do things that you were not allowed to do elsewhere, including improving your line of play by repairing ballmarks. That changed further this January, when you were allowed to repair "damage". There has never been a definition of divot, the only term used is damage. As the rule is written, you can repair damage on the green at any time. Damage is defined in 13.1.c. If you can see it, and it fits the definition, you can repair it. Have you actually looked at these rules yourself? None of them say anything about improving your line of play, or lie, or area of intended swing when you're not on the green.

> > > >

> > > > So a divot was undefined but players were able to fairly eaily determine what they could repair? I would argue that the fairways are a special place as well. Other than tradition why couldn't they also be given special consideration? Areas where the grass is at fairway height or less used to be given special consideration, correct?

> > >

> > > Let me ask you, is a player going to take a divot on a green? I can't say I've seen a divot on the green, never had to play through one, never had to hit out of one, never had to think about repairing one. Have you?

> > > Separately, do you propose to treat a ball in the fairway exactly the same as a ball on the green? Or perhaps we should treat a ball anywhere on the golf course exactly the same as on the green?

> > > So far, you are asking questions, but not answering any of ours. Please tell us exactly how you would propose to address the "problem" of divots.

> >

> > I believe he is trying to conflate pitch/ball marks with divots.

>

> In that case, he has no idea what the various terms actually mean. He may have relatively little knowledge of what the rules actually say right now, or what they said in previous versions. And he has shown absolutely no indication that he is interested in providing a solution, he just wants to whine.

 

Calm down Dave. I expected you of all people to remain level headed in this discussion.

 

Yes, I am talking about Ball Marks. If it helps to say players were allowed only to repair damage caused by golf balls on the green in the past then think of it that way. My point being their is history of people being able to identify and repair that damage in the past. Did they define ball mark in the previous rules? Hard to search now that the rules have changed. Since some of you are very familiar with the how the rules are defined I don't think that should be too hard to answer.

[davep043]

Ball marks weren't defined. And its actually pretty easy to look up the rules from the past:

http://www.ruleshistory.com/rules2016.html

There is about a 60 year history where players were allowed to repair damage in a very specific and limited part of the course. The earliest rules are 275 years old.

But again, we've asked you to come up with your proposed solution. Can you? To quote you, "That shouldn't be too hard to answer."

[ThinkingPlus]

Divots; golf's p0rn. They can't be defined, but everyone knows one when they see one. LOL!