So really...re: divots...

[rogolf]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @Vindog said:

> > 40 rounds x 18 holes/round = 720 holes. Lets say there are 4 par3 per round so 720 - 160 = **560 fairway chances**.

> >

> > 3 divot shots/560 = .00535 So 0.5% chance so far for hatsforbats. So like 1 out of 200...That's pretty close to almost never, imo.

>

> I like your calculation. I went likely two years without landing in a divot then hit 2 in two consecutive days. I guess I'm good now for at least a couple more years :)

 

That's provided all those tee shots actually hit the fairway, which is unlikely.

[HatsForBats]

> @Vindog said:

> 40 rounds x 18 holes/round = 720 holes. Lets say there are 4 par3 per round so 720 - 160 = 560 fairway chances.

>

> 3 divot shots/560 = .00535 So 0.5% chance so far for hatsforbats. So like 1 out of 200...That's pretty close to almost never, imo.

 

You do realize that is a 7.5% chance per round... right? So that would be about 34 Million times per year in the USA (450 Million'ish rounds per year). Your definition of 'almost never' is much, much different than mine. For the record I don't think the chance is anywhere near that great (7.5% per round). Just pointing out the flaw in your idea of 'almost never'.

 

Even if it were only 3.4 million times per year in the USA that is very significant IMO.

[SNIPERBBB]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @Vindog said:

> > 40 rounds x 18 holes/round = 720 holes. Lets say there are 4 par3 per round so 720 - 160 = 560 fairway chances.

> >

> > 3 divot shots/560 = .00535 So 0.5% chance so far for hatsforbats. So like 1 out of 200...That's pretty close to almost never, imo.

>

> You do realize that is a 7.5% chance per round... right? So that would be about 34 Million times per year in the USA (450 Million'ish rounds per year). Your definition of 'almost never' is much, much different than mine. For the record I don't think the chance is anywhere near that great (7.5% per round). Just pointing out the flaw in your idea of 'almost never'.

>

> Even if it were only 3.4 million times per year in the USA that is very significant IMO.

 

7.5% chance per round would mean if you never miss a fairway in a round, you end up in a divot once a round.

[QEight]

People do not fix their divots? Why not start from there.

[HatsForBats]

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @Vindog said:

> > > 40 rounds x 18 holes/round = 720 holes. Lets say there are 4 par3 per round so 720 - 160 = 560 fairway chances.

> > >

> > > 3 divot shots/560 = .00535 So 0.5% chance so far for hatsforbats. So like 1 out of 200...That's pretty close to almost never, imo.

> >

> > You do realize that is a 7.5% chance per round... right? So that would be about 34 Million times per year in the USA (450 Million'ish rounds per year). Your definition of 'almost never' is much, much different than mine. For the record I don't think the chance is anywhere near that great (7.5% per round). Just pointing out the flaw in your idea of 'almost never'.

> >

> > Even if it were only 3.4 million times per year in the USA that is very significant IMO.

>

> 7.5% chance per round would mean if you never miss a fairway in a round, you end up in a divot once a round.

 

Want to think about your 'math' again on that one?

[Mr. Bean]

This thread has (like some others in the past) made me wondering why some people play golf as the only thing it seems to give them is anger and disappointments.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > I've asked this more than a few times of the "free drop divot guys," but when does a divot stop being something that you're entitled relief? Who is the arbiter? When does it go from relief to just an excuse to fluff the ball?

> >

> > The golfer.

> >

> > I'm not sure what "fluff the ball" means. But the courses I usually play have fairways that are good enough so that you don't need to move the ball other than out of a divot.

>

> Fluff, equals lift and place. No way the golfer can be left to decide that because you will have a some that exploit it, give themselves a preferred lie simply because there is a little brown or slight imperfection in the lie. They will give themselves advantage when not warranted.

>

> If divots are a concern then agree within your group. The committee (your group if not a tournament is the committee) and can instute preferred lies. This cares for divots.

>

> Only option I could ever see in a rules change--- allow1 LCP per round if preferred lies isn't in effect. That would care for the 1 bad luck divot and force users to use it judiciously.

 

I'm still waiting for an answer to my question above that would be equitable and insure no one abused the system. Anyone? @Roadking2003 @HatsForBats?

[SNIPERBBB]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > 40 rounds x 18 holes/round = 720 holes. Lets say there are 4 par3 per round so 720 - 160 = 560 fairway chances.

> > > >

> > > > 3 divot shots/560 = .00535 So 0.5% chance so far for hatsforbats. So like 1 out of 200...That's pretty close to almost never, imo.

> > >

> > > You do realize that is a 7.5% chance per round... right? So that would be about 34 Million times per year in the USA (450 Million'ish rounds per year). Your definition of 'almost never' is much, much different than mine. For the record I don't think the chance is anywhere near that great (7.5% per round). Just pointing out the flaw in your idea of 'almost never'.

> > >

> > > Even if it were only 3.4 million times per year in the USA that is very significant IMO.

> >

> > 7.5% chance per round would mean if you never miss a fairway in a round, you end up in a divot once a round.

>

> Want to think about your 'math' again on that one?

 

Not really just illustrating that those odds aren't correct.

[teejaywhy]

> @spartan6910 said:

> ... What am I missing?...

 

The basic idea of the game.

 

 

 

 

[HatsForBats]

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > 40 rounds x 18 holes/round = 720 holes. Lets say there are 4 par3 per round so 720 - 160 = 560 fairway chances.

> > > > >

> > > > > 3 divot shots/560 = .00535 So 0.5% chance so far for hatsforbats. So like 1 out of 200...That's pretty close to almost never, imo.

> > > >

> > > > You do realize that is a 7.5% chance per round... right? So that would be about 34 Million times per year in the USA (450 Million'ish rounds per year). Your definition of 'almost never' is much, much different than mine. For the record I don't think the chance is anywhere near that great (7.5% per round). Just pointing out the flaw in your idea of 'almost never'.

> > > >

> > > > Even if it were only 3.4 million times per year in the USA that is very significant IMO.

> > >

> > > 7.5% chance per round would mean if you never miss a fairway in a round, you end up in a divot once a round.

> >

> > Want to think about your 'math' again on that one?

>

> Not really just illustrating that those odds aren't correct.

 

Your illustration is off.

 

Question: How may fairways did I hit in those 560 tries (assuming 14 holes per round that are not par 3's)?

Answer: You don't know and neither do I. That info was never posted nor tracked.

 

In order for the percent to be a guaranteed 100% when hitting all fairways in a round then I would have had to hit only 3 fairways out of those 560 tries. I don't have accurate stats on fairways hit in those rounds but I am pretty confident it is much greater than only 3 fairways in 40 rounds (560 tries).

 

My guess is you are trying to multiply 14 x 7.5% but the 7.5% is the percent chance per **ROUND** that I landed in a fairway divot. It makes no mention of fairways hit percentage or number of fairways hit. You are just having a little niarB traF.

[davep043]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > 40 rounds x 18 holes/round = 720 holes. Lets say there are 4 par3 per round so 720 - 160 = 560 fairway chances.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 3 divot shots/560 = .00535 So 0.5% chance so far for hatsforbats. So like 1 out of 200...That's pretty close to almost never, imo.

> > > > >

> > > > > You do realize that is a 7.5% chance per round... right? So that would be about 34 Million times per year in the USA (450 Million'ish rounds per year). Your definition of 'almost never' is much, much different than mine. For the record I don't think the chance is anywhere near that great (7.5% per round). Just pointing out the flaw in your idea of 'almost never'.

> > > > >

> > > > > Even if it were only 3.4 million times per year in the USA that is very significant IMO.

> > > >

> > > > 7.5% chance per round would mean if you never miss a fairway in a round, you end up in a divot once a round.

> > >

> > > Want to think about your 'math' again on that one?

> >

> > Not really just illustrating that those odds aren't correct.

>

> Your illustration is off.

>

> Question: How may fairways did I hit in those 560 tries (assuming 14 holes per round that are not par 3's)?

> Answer: You don't know and neither do I. That info was never posted nor tracked.

>

> In order for the percent to be a guaranteed 100% when hitting all fairways in a round then I would have had to hit only 3 fairways out of those 560 tries. I don't have accurate stats on fairways hit in those rounds but I am pretty confident it is much greater than only 3 fairways in 40 rounds (560 tries).

>

> My guess is you are trying to multiply 14 x 7.5% but the 7.5% is the percent chance per **ROUND** that I landed in a fairway divot. It makes no mention of fairways hit percentage or number of fairways hit. You are just having a little niarB traF.

 

I agree, @SNIPERBBB misunderstood the math. Even so, 7.5% per round means that I might have to hit out of a divot something like a half-dozen times in a year of golf (80 rounds or so). Some of those will be only a minor issue, one or two might be more severe. I won't like it, but its not that big a concern to me. Its certainly not worth changing the rules.

[Argonne69]

I played 103 rounds last year, and averaged 9 fairways hit per round. So, out of the ~900 fairways hit I managed to find two divot holes. That's 0.22% for me. First World Problems.

 

[ThinkingPlus]

> @Argonne69 said:

> I played 103 rounds last year, and averaged 9 fairways hit per round. So, out of the ~900 fairways hit I managed to find two divot holes. That's 0.22% for me. First World Problems.

>

 

That is outstanding. Your SGDA (Strokes Gained Divot Avoidance) must be fantastic.

[nsxguy]

> @davep043 said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > 40 rounds x 18 holes/round = 720 holes. Lets say there are 4 par3 per round so 720 - 160 = 560 fairway chances.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 3 divot shots/560 = .00535 So 0.5% chance so far for hatsforbats. So like 1 out of 200...That's pretty close to almost never, imo.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You do realize that is a 7.5% chance per round... right? So that would be about 34 Million times per year in the USA (450 Million'ish rounds per year). Your definition of 'almost never' is much, much different than mine. For the record I don't think the chance is anywhere near that great (7.5% per round). Just pointing out the flaw in your idea of 'almost never'.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Even if it were only 3.4 million times per year in the USA that is very significant IMO.

> > > > >

> > > > > 7.5% chance per round would mean if you never miss a fairway in a round, you end up in a divot once a round.

> > > >

> > > > Want to think about your 'math' again on that one?

> > >

> > > Not really just illustrating that those odds aren't correct.

> >

> > Your illustration is off.

> >

> > Question: How may fairways did I hit in those 560 tries (assuming 14 holes per round that are not par 3's)?

> > Answer: You don't know and neither do I. That info was never posted nor tracked.

> >

> > In order for the percent to be a guaranteed 100% when hitting all fairways in a round then I would have had to hit only 3 fairways out of those 560 tries. I don't have accurate stats on fairways hit in those rounds but I am pretty confident it is much greater than only 3 fairways in 40 rounds (560 tries).

> >

> > My guess is you are trying to multiply 14 x 7.5% but the 7.5% is the percent chance per **ROUND** that I landed in a fairway divot. It makes no mention of fairways hit percentage or number of fairways hit. You are just having a little niarB traF.

>

> I agree, @SNIPERBBB misunderstood the math. Even so, 7.5% per round means that I might have to hit out of a divot something like a half-dozen times in a year of golf (80 rounds or so). Some of those will be only a minor issue, one or two might be more severe. I won't like it, but its not that big a concern to me. Its certainly not worth changing the rules.

 

Math, especially odds, have always fascinated me. I just wish I was better at it.

 

So it appears our resident "calculations" expert, H4B, the guy who crunched all the numbers at his club to "correct" the handicap allowance/allocation, has multiplied the odds, .5% times 15 (presumably the number of fairways in a round) and came up with a 7.5% chance that he'd be in a divot at some point in the round. (7.5% chance being approximately 1 in 14)

 

That about right ?

 

So if one flipped a coin 4 times and it came up heads every time does that mean the odds of the upcoming 5th flip are 80/20 in favor of tails ?

 

I don't think so,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

 

[davep043]

> @nsxguy said:

 

> Math, especially odds, have always fascinated me. I just wish I was better at it.

>

> So it appears our resident "calculations" expert, H4B, the guy who crunched all the numbers at his club to "correct" the handicap allowance/allocation, has multiplied the odds, .5% times 15 (presumably the number of fairways in a round) and came up with a 7.5% chance that he'd be in a divot at some point in the round. (7.5% chance being approximately 1 in 14)

>

> That about right ?

>

> So if one flipped a coin 4 times and it came up heads every time does that mean the odds of the upcoming 5th flip are 80/20 in favor of tails ?

>

> I don't think so,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

>

>

No, but if you flipped the coin 500 times, and it came up heads 400, you know you've got a crooked coin.

My guess is that H4B overestimated the frequency of divot hole interference, and I know that his calculations aren't statistically correct. Even so, if his numbers are accurate, its still not very often over the course of a season.

 

[Argonne69]

The average fairway is 30 yds wide. The landing zone is how deep? 40 yds for a typical player? (230 - 270) That's 1200 square yards, or 1,555,200 sq inches. Let's say a good divot hole is 3" x 6", or 18 square inches.

 

A course has tee times from 6 am to 4 pm, with players going out every 8 minutes. The final group of the day will have had 296 players in front of it. Let's round it to 300.

 

An average 15 handicapper hits 40% of the fairways. So, for every par 4 and 5 there will be ~120 divots in the fairway.

 

That's 2160 square inches of fresh divots, assuming none of the a**hats repairs their divots. That represents 0.14% chance of finding a fresh divot hole. Multiple that by 14 (fairways), and the chance of finding a divot during the entire round is 2% percent, or 1 in 50. (Given that the median is half the players, the odds any one players finds a divot is 1 in 100, as the early players will encounter fewer fresh divots.)

 

Now, tee off in the last group 50 times a season, and you'll finish the year with a single shot hit out of a fresh divot.

 

Now, let's say it takes 2 weeks for an unfilled divot to heal. That increases the odd of finding a "bad" divot hole to ~28% during the round.

 

Of course, none of us play 7 days a week on courses that are fully booked from 6 am until 4 pm. Also, I've played some real goat tracks, but I've never seen one with a 0% divot repair rate. I'd say 25% would be pretty bad.

 

Basically, we're talking about a total non-issue. Take your unplayable, add a stroke, and you'll have added a single stroke to the 4250 other strokes made during your 50 round season.

 

[MtlJeff]

> @Argonne69 said:

> The average fairway is 30 yds wide. The landing zone is how deep? 40 yds for a typical player? (230 - 270) That's 1200 square yards, or 1,555,200 sq inches. Let's say a good divot hole is 3" x 6", or 18 square inches.

>

> A course has tee times from 6 am to 4 pm, with players going out every 8 minutes. The final group of the day will have had 296 players in front of it. Let's round it to 300.

>

> An average 15 handicapper hits 40% of the fairways. So, for every par 4 and 5 there will be ~120 divots in the fairway.

>

> That's 2160 square inches of fresh divots, assuming none of the a**hats repairs their divots. That represents 0.14% chance of finding a fresh divot hole. Multiple that by 14 (fairways), and the chance of finding a divot during the entire round is 2% percent, or 1 in 50. (Given that the median is half the players, the odds any one players finds a divot is 1 in 100, as the early players will encounter fewer fresh divots.)

>

> Now, tee off in the last group 50 times a season, and you'll finish the year with a single shot hit out of a fresh divot.

>

> Now, let's say it takes 2 weeks for an unfilled divot to heal. That increases the odd of finding a "bad" divot hole to ~28% during the round.

>

> Of course, none of us play 7 days a week on courses that are fully booked from 6 am until 4 pm. Also, I've played some real goat tracks, but I've never seen one with a 0% divot repair rate. I'd say 25% would be pretty bad.

>

> Basically, we're talking about a total non-issue. Take your unplayable, add a stroke, and you'll have added a single stroke to the 4250 other strokes made during your 50 round season.

>

 

That's a really cool analysis, thanks

 

It has been my experience too. In 9 rounds so far this year I am yet to land in a divot.

[HitEmTrue]

> @Argonne69 said:

> The average fairway is 30 yds wide. The landing zone is how deep? 40 yds for a typical player? (230 - 270) That's 1200 square yards, or 1,555,200 sq inches. Let's say a good divot hole is 3" x 6", or 18 square inches.

>

> A course has tee times from 6 am to 4 pm, with players going out every 8 minutes. The final group of the day will have had 296 players in front of it. Let's round it to 300.

>

> An average 15 handicapper hits 40% of the fairways. So, for every par 4 and 5 there will be ~120 divots in the fairway.

>

> That's 2160 square inches of fresh divots, assuming none of the a**hats repairs their divots. That represents 0.14% chance of finding a fresh divot hole. Multiple that by 14 (fairways), and the chance of finding a divot during the entire round is 2% percent, or 1 in 50. (Given that the median is half the players, the odds any one players finds a divot is 1 in 100, as the early players will encounter fewer fresh divots.)

>

> Now, tee off in the last group 50 times a season, and you'll finish the year with a single shot hit out of a fresh divot.

>

> Now, let's say it takes 2 weeks for an unfilled divot to heal. That increases the odd of finding a "bad" divot hole to ~28% during the round.

>

> Of course, none of us play 7 days a week on courses that are fully booked from 6 am until 4 pm. Also, I've played some real goat tracks, but I've never seen one with a 0% divot repair rate. I'd say 25% would be pretty bad.

>

> Basically, we're talking about a total non-issue. Take your unplayable, add a stroke, and you'll have added a single stroke to the 4250 other strokes made during your 50 round season.

>

 

Assuming that 0.14% chance is correct on 1 hole, the calculation for odds on finding a divot in 14 fairways is:

 

1 - (1 - 0.0014)^14 = 0.01942

 

That just so happens to be close to 2 percent...but it is just a coincidence for this case.

 

Anyway, my experience is the same. Just about never end up in a divot and hope the rule never gets changed to allow relief.

 

[HatsForBats]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > > 40 rounds x 18 holes/round = 720 holes. Lets say there are 4 par3 per round so 720 - 160 = 560 fairway chances.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 3 divot shots/560 = .00535 So 0.5% chance so far for hatsforbats. So like 1 out of 200...That's pretty close to almost never, imo.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You do realize that is a 7.5% chance per round... right? So that would be about 34 Million times per year in the USA (450 Million'ish rounds per year). Your definition of 'almost never' is much, much different than mine. For the record I don't think the chance is anywhere near that great (7.5% per round). Just pointing out the flaw in your idea of 'almost never'.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Even if it were only 3.4 million times per year in the USA that is very significant IMO.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 7.5% chance per round would mean if you never miss a fairway in a round, you end up in a divot once a round.

> > > > >

> > > > > Want to think about your 'math' again on that one?

> > > >

> > > > Not really just illustrating that those odds aren't correct.

> > >

> > > Your illustration is off.

> > >

> > > Question: How may fairways did I hit in those 560 tries (assuming 14 holes per round that are not par 3's)?

> > > Answer: You don't know and neither do I. That info was never posted nor tracked.

> > >

> > > In order for the percent to be a guaranteed 100% when hitting all fairways in a round then I would have had to hit only 3 fairways out of those 560 tries. I don't have accurate stats on fairways hit in those rounds but I am pretty confident it is much greater than only 3 fairways in 40 rounds (560 tries).

> > >

> > > My guess is you are trying to multiply 14 x 7.5% but the 7.5% is the percent chance per **ROUND** that I landed in a fairway divot. It makes no mention of fairways hit percentage or number of fairways hit. You are just having a little niarB traF.

> >

> > I agree, @SNIPERBBB misunderstood the math. Even so, 7.5% per round means that I might have to hit out of a divot something like a half-dozen times in a year of golf (80 rounds or so). Some of those will be only a minor issue, one or two might be more severe. I won't like it, but its not that big a concern to me. Its certainly not worth changing the rules.

>

> Math, especially odds, have always fascinated me. I just wish I was better at it.

>

> So it appears our resident "calculations" expert, H4B, the guy who crunched all the numbers at his club to "correct" the handicap allowance/allocation, has multiplied the odds, .5% times 15 (presumably the number of fairways in a round) and came up with a 7.5% chance that he'd be in a divot at some point in the round. (7.5% chance being approximately 1 in 14)

>

> That about right ?

>

> So if one flipped a coin 4 times and it came up heads every time does that mean the odds of the upcoming 5th flip are 80/20 in favor of tails ?

>

> I don't think so,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

>

>

 

Let me simplify it so even you **might** understand. What percent is 3 divots divided by 40 rounds?

[HatsForBats]

> @Argonne69 said:

> The average fairway is 30 yds wide. The landing zone is how deep? 40 yds for a typical player? (230 - 270) That's 1200 square yards, or 1,555,200 sq inches. Let's say a good divot hole is 3" x 6", or 18 square inches.

>

> A course has tee times from 6 am to 4 pm, with players going out every 8 minutes. The final group of the day will have had 296 players in front of it. Let's round it to 300.

>

> An average 15 handicapper hits 40% of the fairways. So, for every par 4 and 5 there will be ~120 divots in the fairway.

>

> That's 2160 square inches of fresh divots, assuming none of the a**hats repairs their divots. That represents 0.14% chance of finding a fresh divot hole. Multiple that by 14 (fairways), and the chance of finding a divot during the entire round is 2% percent, or 1 in 50. (Given that the median is half the players, the odds any one players finds a divot is 1 in 100, as the early players will encounter fewer fresh divots.)

>

> Now, tee off in the last group 50 times a season, and you'll finish the year with a single shot hit out of a fresh divot.

>

> Now, let's say it takes 2 weeks for an unfilled divot to heal. That increases the odd of finding a "bad" divot hole to ~28% during the round.

>

> Of course, none of us play 7 days a week on courses that are fully booked from 6 am until 4 pm. Also, I've played some real goat tracks, but I've never seen one with a 0% divot repair rate. I'd say 25% would be pretty bad.

>

> Basically, we're talking about a total non-issue. Take your unplayable, add a stroke, and you'll have added a single stroke to the 4250 other strokes made during your 50 round season.

>

 

IMO It's not a non-issue in a competitive round even if it would only happen 1 in 100 rounds. We don't have accurate enough figures to get at how often it happens but we do know it happens enough that the subject keeps coming up again and again. From my perspective I wouldn't see it as my oppenent gaining an advanatge over me if they were in a fairway divot and were allowed relief. If we are tied on the last hole where both of us hit drives next to each other in the fairway and my opponent lands in a divot I would **much** prefer they are allowed relief from the divot. The same as I wouldn't want a footprint in a green-side bunker to help determine the outcome.

[sui generis]

If only bad breaks were offset with good breaks!

 

Wait, perhaps they often are . . . ball hit into the woods, hits a tree and caroms back into the fairway. Or, wow, that crappy swing we make hits the ball into the rough and low and behold we find it sitting up in a perfect lie.

[PoolPond]

I'm against it, but I also think there should be no raking of bunkers. Leave em be

[HatsForBats]

> @"sui generis" said:

> If only bad breaks were offset with good breaks!

>

> Wait, perhaps they often are . . . ball hit into the woods, hits a tree and caroms back into the fairway. Or, wow, that crappy swing we make hits the ball into the rough and low and behold we find it sitting up in a perfect lie.

 

Good breaks really have nothing to do with it and it still baffles me when players try to use that argument. I want the individual competition to come down to players skill as much as possible. Certainly you cannot eliminate all bad or good breaks but this one just seems very simple and frankly common sense.

 

I have to wonder how many of you that are so against the change would react if a rule, to allow relief from a fairway divot, was already in place for your full golfing life. If suddenly they changed it to not allow relief I have to think many of you would think it was not a good change. Me thinks you are stuck in the tradition of it rather than looking at with common sense.

[davep043]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @"sui generis" said:

> > If only bad breaks were offset with good breaks!

> >

> > Wait, perhaps they often are . . . ball hit into the woods, hits a tree and caroms back into the fairway. Or, wow, that crappy swing we make hits the ball into the rough and low and behold we find it sitting up in a perfect lie.

>

> Good breaks really have nothing to do with it and it still baffles me when players try to use that argument. I want the individual competition to come down to players skill as much as possible. Certainly you cannot eliminate all bad or good breaks but this one just seems very simple and frankly common sense.

>

> I have to wonder how many of you that are so against the change would react if a rule, to allow relief from a fairway divot, was already in place for your full golfing life. If suddenly they changed it to not allow relief I have to think many of you would think it was not a good change. Me thinks you are stuck in the tradition of it rather than looking at with common sense.

 

Speaking only for myself, if I thought it was possible to accurately define a divot hole, AND accurately define the point at which is has grown in enough to no longer be a divot hole, I might support a change. You'd have to deal with divot holes that have been filled in with sand flush with the surrounding grass, and with divots that have been replaced, divots that were replaced a few days ago and the grass has died, lots of potential variations. I don't believe its possible to do that, so I prefer to leave things the way they are, and have been since the beginning of the golf rules.

And to be clear, learning to be able to hit a ball from a divot hole is definitely a skill. Its a bad break to end up in a difficult spot in a fairway, its a matter of skill when you deal with it successfully.

[Krt22]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @Argonne69 said:

> > The average fairway is 30 yds wide. The landing zone is how deep? 40 yds for a typical player? (230 - 270) That's 1200 square yards, or 1,555,200 sq inches. Let's say a good divot hole is 3" x 6", or 18 square inches.

> >

> > A course has tee times from 6 am to 4 pm, with players going out every 8 minutes. The final group of the day will have had 296 players in front of it. Let's round it to 300.

> >

> > An average 15 handicapper hits 40% of the fairways. So, for every par 4 and 5 there will be ~120 divots in the fairway.

> >

> > That's 2160 square inches of fresh divots, assuming none of the a**hats repairs their divots. That represents 0.14% chance of finding a fresh divot hole. Multiple that by 14 (fairways), and the chance of finding a divot during the entire round is 2% percent, or 1 in 50. (Given that the median is half the players, the odds any one players finds a divot is 1 in 100, as the early players will encounter fewer fresh divots.)

> >

> > Now, tee off in the last group 50 times a season, and you'll finish the year with a single shot hit out of a fresh divot.

> >

> > Now, let's say it takes 2 weeks for an unfilled divot to heal. That increases the odd of finding a "bad" divot hole to ~28% during the round.

> >

> > Of course, none of us play 7 days a week on courses that are fully booked from 6 am until 4 pm. Also, I've played some real goat tracks, but I've never seen one with a 0% divot repair rate. I'd say 25% would be pretty bad.

> >

> > Basically, we're talking about a total non-issue. Take your unplayable, add a stroke, and you'll have added a single stroke to the 4250 other strokes made during your 50 round season.

> >

>

> IMO It's not a non-issue in a competitive round even if it would only happen 1 in 100 rounds. We don't have accurate enough figures to get at how often it happens but we do know it happens enough that the subject keeps coming up again and again. From my perspective I wouldn't see it as my oppenent gaining an advanatge over me if they were in a fairway divot and were allowed relief. If we are tied on the last hole where both of us hit drives next to each other in the fairway and my opponent lands in a divot I would **much** prefer they are allowed relief from the divot. The same as I wouldn't want a footprint in a green-side bunker to help determine the outcome.

 

It happened to me, on the 17th, match play, was down 5 after 10, reduced the gap to down 1. Absolutely blistered one down the middle, well past where most of the divots normally would be, well past my competitor, ended up in an inch deep trench. Had to blast it out and flew the green, wasnt able to get up and down, we halved the hole and I lost the match. Maybe it would not have changed anything, but it did grind my gears, but such is golf

[SNIPERBBB]

It seems simple like any other time someone tries to modify the Rules in any sport, but in reality it's not. My main opposition is that divots cannot be adequately defined as to what they are and when they are not. Take for instance casual water vs wet ground. The rules are pretty clear on what qualifies as casual water.

 

Until a detail definition and possible Interpretations are offered showing when relief is and is not allowed this debate will just continue running in the same circles it is now.

[Krt22]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @"sui generis" said:

> > If only bad breaks were offset with good breaks!

> >

> > Wait, perhaps they often are . . . ball hit into the woods, hits a tree and caroms back into the fairway. Or, wow, that crappy swing we make hits the ball into the rough and low and behold we find it sitting up in a perfect lie.

>

> Good breaks really have nothing to do with it and it still baffles me when players try to use that argument. I want the individual competition to come down to players skill as much as possible. Certainly you cannot eliminate all bad or good breaks but this one just seems very simple and frankly common sense.

>

> I have to wonder how many of you that are so against the change would react if a rule, to allow relief from a fairway divot, was already in place for your full golfing life. If suddenly they changed it to not allow relief I have to think many of you would think it was not a good change. Me thinks you are stuck in the tradition of it rather than looking at with common sense.

 

I have not been playing all that long, but I can understand why the rule exists. There would be too much ambiguity as to when you should get relief and ultimately further slow down the game asking each time if it was a divot or just a bad lie. If you are going to give relief, you essentially might as well play all shots in the fairway as lift clean and place, which again would further slow down the game. At the end of the day it applies to the entire field, so there isn't anything inherently fair or unfair about it.

[SnapHooker_307]

> @davep043 said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > If only bad breaks were offset with good breaks!

> > >

> > > Wait, perhaps they often are . . . ball hit into the woods, hits a tree and caroms back into the fairway. Or, wow, that crappy swing we make hits the ball into the rough and low and behold we find it sitting up in a perfect lie.

> >

> > Good breaks really have nothing to do with it and it still baffles me when players try to use that argument. I want the individual competition to come down to players skill as much as possible. Certainly you cannot eliminate all bad or good breaks but this one just seems very simple and frankly common sense.

> >

> > I have to wonder how many of you that are so against the change would react if a rule, to allow relief from a fairway divot, was already in place for your full golfing life. If suddenly they changed it to not allow relief I have to think many of you would think it was not a good change. Me thinks you are stuck in the tradition of it rather than looking at with common sense.

>

> Speaking only for myself, if I thought it was possible to accurately define a divot hole, AND accurately define the point at which is has grown in enough to no longer be a divot hole, I might support a change. You'd have to deal with divot holes that have been filled in with sand flush with the surrounding grass, and with divots that have been replaced, divots that were replaced a few days ago and the grass has died, lots of potential variations. I don't believe its possible to do that, so I prefer to leave things the way they are, and have been since the beginning of the golf rules.

> And to be clear, learning to be able to hit a ball from a divot hole is definitely a skill. Its a bad break to end up in a difficult spot in a fairway, its a matter of skill when you deal with it successfully.

 

I agree with davep043 100%, it is a skill to hit out of a divot, similar to hitting off a slope or hitting when you are right up next to the collar of the fairway/rough, etc. Frustrating? Yes, but then you have to adjust and manage what you are doing to finish the hole.

[ThinkingPlus]

> @davep043 said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > If only bad breaks were offset with good breaks!

> > >

> > > Wait, perhaps they often are . . . ball hit into the woods, hits a tree and caroms back into the fairway. Or, wow, that crappy swing we make hits the ball into the rough and low and behold we find it sitting up in a perfect lie.

> >

> > Good breaks really have nothing to do with it and it still baffles me when players try to use that argument. I want the individual competition to come down to players skill as much as possible. Certainly you cannot eliminate all bad or good breaks but this one just seems very simple and frankly common sense.

> >

> > I have to wonder how many of you that are so against the change would react if a rule, to allow relief from a fairway divot, was already in place for your full golfing life. If suddenly they changed it to not allow relief I have to think many of you would think it was not a good change. Me thinks you are stuck in the tradition of it rather than looking at with common sense.

>

> Speaking only for myself, if I thought it was possible to accurately define a divot hole, AND accurately define the point at which is has grown in enough to no longer be a divot hole, I might support a change. You'd have to deal with divot holes that have been filled in with sand flush with the surrounding grass, and with divots that have been replaced, divots that were replaced a few days ago and the grass has died, lots of potential variations. I don't believe its possible to do that, so I prefer to leave things the way they are, and have been since the beginning of the golf rules.

> And to be clear, learning to be able to hit a ball from a divot hole is definitely a skill. Its a bad break to end up in a difficult spot in a fairway, its a matter of skill when you deal with it successfully.

 

In addition to being a skill to execute the shot, how one mentally handles the divot issue is paramount to successfully completing the hole and round. That mental toughness can be learned and differentiates the better players from the merely good. No one likes playing from a divot, but treat it as an opportunity to excel and you can become the kind of player that all others hate to compete against. Or just take pride in the fact that you did not let that one bad break derail your round whether you successfully executed the shot or not. One can be a winner or a whiner. It is a choice.

[PoolPond]

> @ThinkingPlus said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > If only bad breaks were offset with good breaks!

> > > >

> > > > Wait, perhaps they often are . . . ball hit into the woods, hits a tree and caroms back into the fairway. Or, wow, that crappy swing we make hits the ball into the rough and low and behold we find it sitting up in a perfect lie.

> > >

> > > Good breaks really have nothing to do with it and it still baffles me when players try to use that argument. I want the individual competition to come down to players skill as much as possible. Certainly you cannot eliminate all bad or good breaks but this one just seems very simple and frankly common sense.

> > >

> > > I have to wonder how many of you that are so against the change would react if a rule, to allow relief from a fairway divot, was already in place for your full golfing life. If suddenly they changed it to not allow relief I have to think many of you would think it was not a good change. Me thinks you are stuck in the tradition of it rather than looking at with common sense.

> >

> > Speaking only for myself, if I thought it was possible to accurately define a divot hole, AND accurately define the point at which is has grown in enough to no longer be a divot hole, I might support a change. You'd have to deal with divot holes that have been filled in with sand flush with the surrounding grass, and with divots that have been replaced, divots that were replaced a few days ago and the grass has died, lots of potential variations. I don't believe its possible to do that, so I prefer to leave things the way they are, and have been since the beginning of the golf rules.

> > And to be clear, learning to be able to hit a ball from a divot hole is definitely a skill. Its a bad break to end up in a difficult spot in a fairway, its a matter of skill when you deal with it successfully.

>

> In addition to being a skill to execute the shot, how one mentally handles the divot issue is paramount to successfully completing the hole and round. That mental toughness can be learned and differentiates the better players from the merely good. No one likes playing from a divot, but treat it as an opportunity to excel and you can become the kind of player that all others hate to compete against. Or just take pride in the fact that you did not let that one bad break derail your round whether you successfully executed the shot or not. One can be a winner or a whiner. It is a choice.

 

You are right on. I have seen this up and close many times but one situation has stayed with me. It was the Ryder Cup when held at Vahalla. Alternate shot day. I want to say Rose was partnered with Poulter. Their drive lands directly in front of me in the fairway when I was mashaling a strange hazard area behind me. The ball rolls into a good size stick that still had leaves on which ended up underneath thier ball. The stick which was probably as wide as a sharpie was directly on the club face side of the ball. They could not move it because the ball would have moved. I was staring at it 3 feet away for the few minutes it took them to get to it. Justin gets to it, says "hmm look at that", pulls out a club and hits it perfectly in a matter of seconds and was gone. No moaning, no laboring over what to do, just look at it, grab the club and whack it with all the confidence in the world.