Leaving the pin in?

[Pepperturbo]

> @HitEmTrue said:

> > @Pepperturbo said:

> > Let's not assume what happens to you is what happens to others. Because my lag putting is solid I seldom three-putt. When the ball hits the soft back of the cup and pops up, it seldom goes further than a few feet and stops because the speed was close to spot-on. That same speed into the pin, however, gets a bit more spin-off distance normally 4-6', due to the hard circular nature of the pin. If you play Billards you know what I mean. Least that's the case for this "2", no science just factual experience that says no more putting with the pin in unless I am light years away and too lazy to walk up and nobody else is nearby to pull the pin. Have a good day.

>

> A ball rolling on the ground will not gain energy and end up further away after hitting the pin than it would have if it did not hit the pin. Not the same scenario as a ball that is in the air, with back-spin, that is prevented by the pin from going beyond the hole before spinning back.

>

 

I disagree. When a ball hits a soft back of cup it's pace is absorbed more than when that ball traveling at the same speed hits a hard circular stick. The circular nature of the stick enhances the spin causing it to travel further. I've proven that to myself multiple times. It's not about gaining energy from the ground but reacting to a hard circular pin. The circular nature of the pin is like a ball hitting a ball on a billiard table. But you're welcome to your opinion.

[chippa13]

I'm dying to hear how a stationary, static object can impart more energy into a moving object than the object already had. This should be fun for physics folks.

[HitEmTrue]

> @Pepperturbo said:

> > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > Let's not assume what happens to you is what happens to others. Because my lag putting is solid I seldom three-putt. When the ball hits the soft back of the cup and pops up, it seldom goes further than a few feet and stops because the speed was close to spot-on. That same speed into the pin, however, gets a bit more spin-off distance normally 4-6', due to the hard circular nature of the pin. If you play Billards you know what I mean. Least that's the case for this "2", no science just factual experience that says no more putting with the pin in unless I am light years away and too lazy to walk up and nobody else is nearby to pull the pin. Have a good day.

> >

> > A ball rolling on the ground will not gain energy and end up further away after hitting the pin than it would have if it did not hit the pin. Not the same scenario as a ball that is in the air, with back-spin, that is prevented by the pin from going beyond the hole before spinning back.

> >

>

> I disagree. When a ball hits a soft back of cup it's pace is absorbed more than when that ball traveling at the same speed hits a hard circular stick. The circular nature of the stick enhances the spin causing it to travel further. I've proven that to myself multiple times. It's not about gaining energy from the ground but reacting to a hard circular pin. The circular nature of the pin is like a ball hitting a ball on a billiard table. But you're welcome to your opinion.

 

I'm talking about a ball that would not hit the back-of-the-hole, or the flag stick. If it bounces 6 feet way off the stick, it would roll MORE than that distance past the hole if it hits nothing.

 

But I'm with you on the pin-out being better, on putts with proper speed.

 

[Mr. Bean]

> @Mikey5e said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > I'm trying to imagine a flagstick with a diameter of 2 inches at "any point."

> > I have encountered flag fixings getting on for that size.

> >

>

> The flagstick doesn't have to be any larger in diameter, just put an umbrella type catch on the bottom that pulls the ball out when you remove the flag. USGA approved of course. Although then, the umbrella portion would cause damage to the hole.

 

I guess you did not read the posts before not to mention the Rule but this is exactly what they did in Sweden and that they considered not to be allowed **as the pin diameter increases too much**. You see, the 'umbrella' is part of the pin. Got it?

[Mr. Bean]

> @HitEmTrue said:

> > @Pepperturbo said:

> > Let's not assume what happens to you is what happens to others. Because my lag putting is solid I seldom three-putt. When the ball hits the soft back of the cup and pops up, it seldom goes further than a few feet and stops because the speed was close to spot-on. That same speed into the pin, however, gets a bit more spin-off distance normally 4-6', due to the hard circular nature of the pin. If you play Billards you know what I mean. Least that's the case for this "2", no science just factual experience that says no more putting with the pin in unless I am light years away and too lazy to walk up and nobody else is nearby to pull the pin. Have a good day.

>

> A ball rolling on the ground will not gain energy and end up further away after hitting the pin than it would have if it did not hit the pin.

>

 

Sorry, back to physics class, HitEmTrue. Start with different types of collisions.

[HitEmTrue]

@"Mr. Bean" fair enough, but the ball isn't going to gain speed.

[Mr. Bean]

> @HitEmTrue said:

> ...

 

Trust me, you are walking on thin ice here.

[bladehunter]

> @"North Butte" said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @antip said:

> > > > @larrybud said:

> > > > Absolutely slows things down when one guy wants it in, one guy wants it how. How could it NOT? After all, if pulling the pin ONCE slows things down as proponents of the rule claim, then putting it back in and pulling it 2 or 3 times every hole will certainly slow things down.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > Sounds like the objective of this hypothetical group is what is the dumbest and slowest possible way we can approach this task of getting all our balls into the hole. And yes, if folk are so motivated, things could definitely be slow. But I've gotta say, I've never seen such behaviour, let alone seen it repeated. In my experience, the vast majority of people learn as they go along. And that is how applying this new arrangement is unfolding everywhere I've played this year.

> >

> > The goal for the round is to play golf , not speed.

>

> The goal for the round is to play golf, not stand around while silly persons repeatedly take the flagstick in and out of the hole.

 

Right. Pull it once and boom.

[North Butte]

Or leave it in and boom.

 

Like I was yelling at those idiots on the road when I drove to lunch, "Just pick a lane!!!".

[Pepperturbo]

Don't die on us, 13. lol

 

I have been playing Billiards since I was fourteen years old, in pool halls, tournaments and on my home tournament table; never met a physics student or teacher playing the game. Don't doubt that one might have a theoretical opinion.

 

A static object doesn't impart "MORE" energy, but different energy that redirects the moving object; the variable is the hard or soft nature of the static object, in this case, the hard circular pin vs. soft back of the cup. The key is being able to anticipate the spin direction of the cue ball and stationary ball or in this case, what my ball does after it hits the stationary object (pin) off center or on center. Hitting the center or pin square, the ball pops straight up and down in the cup, no spin. Hit a cue ball in the middle with no right or left spin and watch what it does and the stationary ball does after impact. A related example is when a golfer puts a certain impact on the golf ball knowing when the golf ball hits the green it's spin changes taking it purposely right or left. You'd be surprised how much Billiards teaches about spinning the golf ball into and on the putting surface, and ball behavior.

[Mikey5e]

> @Pepperturbo said:

> > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > Let's not assume what happens to you is what happens to others. Because my lag putting is solid I seldom three-putt. When the ball hits the soft back of the cup and pops up, it seldom goes further than a few feet and stops because the speed was close to spot-on. That same speed into the pin, however, gets a bit more spin-off distance normally 4-6', due to the hard circular nature of the pin. If you play Billards you know what I mean. Least that's the case for this "2", no science just factual experience that says no more putting with the pin in unless I am light years away and too lazy to walk up and nobody else is nearby to pull the pin. Have a good day.

> >

> > A ball rolling on the ground will not gain energy and end up further away after hitting the pin than it would have if it did not hit the pin. Not the same scenario as a ball that is in the air, with back-spin, that is prevented by the pin from going beyond the hole before spinning back.

> >

>

> I disagree. When a ball hits a soft back of cup it's pace is absorbed more than when that ball traveling at the same speed hits a hard circular stick. The circular nature of the stick enhances the spin causing it to travel further. I've proven that to myself multiple times. It's not about gaining energy from the ground but reacting to a hard circular pin. The circular nature of the pin is like a ball hitting a ball on a billiard table. But you're welcome to your opinion.

 

Yes but a ball cannot gain energy by hitting the flag stick and actually going further than it would have if it didn't hit the flagstick.

[HitEmTrue]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @HitEmTrue said:

> > ...

>

> Trust me, you are walking on thin ice here.

 

It has been demonstrated that the ball can make hit the stick off-centered, and NOT drop in the hole, when it otherwise would have dropped. So I supposed that goes against what I have been saying. But to bounce 4-to-6 feet away on a ball rolling (not spinning) with proper speed, seems very extreme to me.

 

 

[Pepperturbo]

> @Mikey5e said:

> > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > Let's not assume what happens to you is what happens to others. Because my lag putting is solid I seldom three-putt. When the ball hits the soft back of the cup and pops up, it seldom goes further than a few feet and stops because the speed was close to spot-on. That same speed into the pin, however, gets a bit more spin-off distance normally 4-6', due to the hard circular nature of the pin. If you play Billards you know what I mean. Least that's the case for this "2", no science just factual experience that says no more putting with the pin in unless I am light years away and too lazy to walk up and nobody else is nearby to pull the pin. Have a good day.

> > >

> > > A ball rolling on the ground will not gain energy and end up further away after hitting the pin than it would have if it did not hit the pin. Not the same scenario as a ball that is in the air, with back-spin, that is prevented by the pin from going beyond the hole before spinning back.

> > >

> >

> > I disagree. When a ball hits a soft back of cup it's pace is absorbed more than when that ball traveling at the same speed hits a hard circular stick. The circular nature of the stick enhances the spin causing it to travel further. I've proven that to myself multiple times. It's not about gaining energy from the ground but reacting to a hard circular pin. The circular nature of the pin is like a ball hitting a ball on a billiard table. But you're welcome to your opinion.

>

> Yes but a ball cannot gain energy by hitting the flag stick and actually going further than it would have if it didn't hit the flagstick.

 

Reread my posts. NOWHERE did I say "gain" energy or going further than...

 

When a ball hits a stationary object depending on how the ball impacts the object, the balls energy changes. The variables are the density of the stationary object hit and spin of the golf ball. The circular pin is hard and small in circumference so only a fraction of the ball actually impacts the pin. However, the back of the cup is larger in circumference and soft so more of the ball surface impacts the cup/turf affecting the ball in a different manner.

[Mr. Bean]

> @Pepperturbo said:

> > @Mikey5e said:

> > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > > Let's not assume what happens to you is what happens to others. Because my lag putting is solid I seldom three-putt. When the ball hits the soft back of the cup and pops up, it seldom goes further than a few feet and stops because the speed was close to spot-on. That same speed into the pin, however, gets a bit more spin-off distance normally 4-6', due to the hard circular nature of the pin. If you play Billards you know what I mean. Least that's the case for this "2", no science just factual experience that says no more putting with the pin in unless I am light years away and too lazy to walk up and nobody else is nearby to pull the pin. Have a good day.

> > > >

> > > > A ball rolling on the ground will not gain energy and end up further away after hitting the pin than it would have if it did not hit the pin. Not the same scenario as a ball that is in the air, with back-spin, that is prevented by the pin from going beyond the hole before spinning back.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I disagree. When a ball hits a soft back of cup it's pace is absorbed more than when that ball traveling at the same speed hits a hard circular stick. The circular nature of the stick enhances the spin causing it to travel further. I've proven that to myself multiple times. It's not about gaining energy from the ground but reacting to a hard circular pin. The circular nature of the pin is like a ball hitting a ball on a billiard table. But you're welcome to your opinion.

> >

> > Yes but a ball cannot gain energy by hitting the flag stick and actually going further than it would have if it didn't hit the flagstick.

>

> Reread my posts. NOWHERE did I say "gain" energy or going further than...

>

> When a ball hits a stationary object depending on how the ball impacts the object, the balls energy changes. The variables are the density of the stationary object hit and spin of the golf ball. The circular pin is hard and small in circumference so only a fraction of the ball actually impacts the pin. However, the back of the cup is larger in circumference and soft so more of the ball surface impacts the cup/turf affecting the ball in a different manner.

 

Not to mention half a dozen other laws of physics that are involved.

[HitEmTrue]

> @Pepperturbo said:

>

> Reread my posts. NOWHERE did I say "gain" energy or going further than...

>

> When a ball hits a stationary object depending on how the ball impacts the object, the balls energy changes. The variables are the density of the stationary object hit and spin of the golf ball. The circular pin is hard and small in circumference so only a fraction of the ball actually impacts the pin. However, the back of the cup is larger in circumference and soft so more of the ball surface impacts the cup/turf affecting the ball in a different manner.

 

You are correct, you didn't say that...I assumed you were talking about putts that would have otherwise rolled only a very short distance past the hole.

 

[Newby]

> @Pepperturbo said:

It's not about gaining energy from the ground but reacting to a hard circular pin.

>

If you know of any material which has a coefficient of restitution greater than 100 then you could make yourself a fortune.

[North Butte]

> @HitEmTrue said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > ...

> >

> > Trust me, you are walking on thin ice here.

>

> It has been demonstrated that the ball can make hit the stick off-centered, and NOT drop in the hole, when it otherwise would have dropped. So I supposed that goes against what I have been saying. But to bounce 4-to-6 feet away on a ball rolling (not spinning) with proper speed, seems very extreme to me.

 

You've got it right. He can't have it both ways. A ball with "perfect speed" that> @Newby said:

> > @Pepperturbo said:

> It's not about gaining energy from the ground but reacting to a hard circular pin.

>

> If you know of any material which has a coefficient of restitution greater than 100 then you could make yourself a fortune.

 

You've got to ask yourself which is more likely. Does the ball/flagstick system have a COR of around 2.50? Or was that putt perhaps actually moving faster than "perfect speed"?

 

In my world the second option holds every time. In the Pepperverse, who knows?

[Mikey5e]

Just finished 18 at a local Muni and noticed two holes with damage to the edge of the cup. I can't say how it happened but suspect it was from the new flag stick rule. Golfers reaching into the cup without care or ramming the edge with the stick.

Sidenote: too many ball marks not being repaired!

[Pepperturbo]

> @Mikey5e said:

> Just finished 18 at a local Muni and noticed two holes with damage to the edge of the cup. I can't say how it happened but suspect it was from the new flag stick rule. Golfers reaching into the cup without care or ramming the edge with the stick.

> Sidenote: too many ball marks not being repaired!

 

I have been seeing that a lot more recently too. Amazing how idiots pull the pin and struggle to replace it without cup damage and tear up surrounding turf as they drag their feet. What's that saying, you can't fix stupid or lazy

[larrybud]

> @"North Butte" said:

> From what I read on this forum, a lot of irritating b.s. goes on in "golf leagues". Especially the nine-hole after work variety.

 

What's your point? It's still a legit 9 holes of golf. Played this past weekend (non golf league, prime time sunday morning, top end course) and 1 guy wanted the pin back in every time. PITA.

 

Fact of the matter is that the ONLY way it's going to help you is if you hit the ball WAY too hard. That generally doesn't happen on putts inside of, say, 10-15 feet.

[larrybud]

> @HitEmTrue said:

> > @Pepperturbo said:

> > Let's not assume what happens to you is what happens to others. Because my lag putting is solid I seldom three-putt. When the ball hits the soft back of the cup and pops up, it seldom goes further than a few feet and stops because the speed was close to spot-on. That same speed into the pin, however, gets a bit more spin-off distance normally 4-6', due to the hard circular nature of the pin. If you play Billards you know what I mean. Least that's the case for this "2", no science just factual experience that says no more putting with the pin in unless I am light years away and too lazy to walk up and nobody else is nearby to pull the pin. Have a good day.

>

> A ball rolling on the ground will not gain energy and end up further away after hitting the pin than it would have if it did not hit the pin. Not the same scenario as a ball that is in the air, with back-spin, that is prevented by the pin from going beyond the hole before spinning back.

 

It certainly doesn't need to "gain energy". Haven't you ever seen a ball hit far too hard hit the back of the cup, pop up, and end up in or right around the hole? I've seen that multiple times, as well as a ball travelling at a speed which would have gone a foot past the hole hit the pin and not go in.

 

[bigred90gt]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @Loki said:

> > Umm, no.

> > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/putting-with-the-flagstick-in-could-be-a-mistake-new-golf-digest-study-from-cal-poly-professor-shows

>

> Dave Pelz: The science proves you should leave the flagstick in when you putt

> https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

>

> and another one that basically says "it depends"--- which I think most of us know.

> https://www.golfdigest.com/story/edoardo-molinari-conducts-pretty-scientific-puttingflagstick-experiment-and-the-results-may-surprise-you

>

 

Think what you want, but I’m going to take the scientific tests performed by a PhD Engineer and professor from Cal PolyTech over Dave Pelz any day, all day, and twice on Sunday.

 

[HitEmTrue]

> @larrybud said:

>

> It certainly doesn't need to "gain energy". Haven't you ever seen a ball hit far too hard hit the back of the cup, pop up, and end up in or right around the hole? I've seen that multiple times, as well as a ball travelling at a speed which would have gone a foot past the hole hit the pin and not go in.

>

 

Yes, I have seen that. I was merely stating that the ball that bounces 6 feet away after hitting the pin had enough speed to go FURTHER than 6 feet past the hole. If it hit nothing.

 

 

 

 

[North Butte]

> @bigred90gt said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > @Loki said:

> > > Umm, no.

> > > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/putting-with-the-flagstick-in-could-be-a-mistake-new-golf-digest-study-from-cal-poly-professor-shows

> >

> > Dave Pelz: The science proves you should leave the flagstick in when you putt

> > https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

> >

> > and another one that basically says "it depends"--- which I think most of us know.

> > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/edoardo-molinari-conducts-pretty-scientific-puttingflagstick-experiment-and-the-results-may-surprise-you

> >

>

> Think what you want, but I’m going to take the scientific tests performed by a PhD Engineer and professor from Cal PolyTech over Dave Pelz any day, all day, and twice on Sunday.

>

 

Your faith in credentials is charming.

[Loki]

> @bigred90gt said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > @Loki said:

> > > Umm, no.

> > > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/putting-with-the-flagstick-in-could-be-a-mistake-new-golf-digest-study-from-cal-poly-professor-shows

> >

> > Dave Pelz: The science proves you should leave the flagstick in when you putt

> > https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

> >

> > and another one that basically says "it depends"--- which I think most of us know.

> > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/edoardo-molinari-conducts-pretty-scientific-puttingflagstick-experiment-and-the-results-may-surprise-you

> >

>

> Think what you want, but I’m going to take the scientific tests performed by a PhD Engineer and professor from Cal PolyTech over Dave Pelz any day, all day, and twice on Sunday.

>

 

Pelz was a NASA engineer.

[Mikey5e]

I just played in a tournament where one of the participants in my foursome always had to have the flagstick out of the hole when putting within 20 ft. The other three of us didn't really care , but it did make things quite awkward when all in the foursome were not in agreement. I can see this flagstick rule being changed back to the way it used to be because I really don't think it speeds up play like they hoped. As a matter of fact, I think more damage occurs to the hole because of this new flagstick rule.

[North Butte]

It gives like-minded players the option of playing slightly more quickly with slightly less hassle. There's nothing the Rule makers can do to keep those intent on wasting time from wasting time.

 

That one guy insisting on doing the flagstick differently than the other three is no different than having one guy who insists on eight waggles, four practice swings and thirty seconds of freezing over the ball before every shot.

[rogolf]

> @"North Butte" said:

> It gives like-minded players the option of playing slightly more quickly with slightly less hassle. There's nothing the Rule makers can do to keep those intent on wasting time from wasting time.

>

> That one guy insisting on doing the flagstick differently than the other three is no different than having one guy who insists on eight waggles, four practice swings and thirty seconds of freezing over the ball before every shot.

 

Sure he is, he's playing within the Rules - the guy you describe with eight waggles, etc very likely exceeds the 40 second recommendation and is unreasonably delaying play.

[davep043]

The one thing that I'm certain of, halfway through a year under the new rules, is that with good communication, there isn't any time lost. I'm not certain there is time saved, and time can be lost through POOR communication, but if we all talk to one another in a timely fashion, it doesn't slow anyone down.

[North Butte]

> @davep043 said:

> The one thing that I'm certain of, halfway through a year under the new rules, is that with good communication, there isn't any time lost. I'm not certain there is time saved, and time can be lost through POOR communication, but if we all talk to one another in a timely fashion, it doesn't slow anyone down.

 

And that's just in situations where everyone isn't on the same page.

 

It certainly saves (little bit of) time and some effort when the entire group is happy just to never touch a flagstick for the entire 18 holes. So I agree with you, unless people are mishandling the whole situation in a mixed group it shouldn't add much time, if any. And in a like-minded foursome it does save time.