New World Handicaps 2020

[DaveLeeNC]

> @"North Butte" said:

> I’ll tell you what. If USGA will start basing handicaps solely on competitive scores attested by other handicap subscribers I will gladly enter my scores hole by hole.

 

I just did a careful and complete analysis of how much extra time it would take me to have posted ALL my attested/competitive scores hole by hole over the past 5 years. In my case the answer is 0.00 seconds.

 

dave

[North Butte]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > I’ll tell you what. If USGA will start basing handicaps solely on competitive scores attested by other handicap subscribers I will gladly enter my scores hole by hole.

>

> I just did a careful and complete analysis of how much extra time it would take me to have posted ALL my attested/competitive scores hole by hole over the past 5 years. In my case the answer is 0.00 seconds.

>

> dave

 

Exactly.

 

You see my point. For me it would two rounds in the previous four years (don't recall any older than that, either).

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @dlygrisse said:

> > Actually this new system is easier to remember. With the ESC I always forget where the cutoff is for max score on a hole. I’m at double, but I have a buddy who moves back and forth. Ow it will be the same principle for everyone.

>

> Both are extremely easy to handle. A third-grader would have no problem with either system.

>

>

 

Of course they are all easy but this change to esc as described requires more work for anyone that goes out and plays with others for low net.... Which there's many. Those people don't care about handicap strokes by hole, but in 2020 it will become another step that returns the user nothing. Just like hole by hole entry, it gets the user nothing.

[Deceptively Short]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > @dlygrisse said:

> > > Actually this new system is easier to remember. With the ESC I always forget where the cutoff is for max score on a hole. I’m at double, but I have a buddy who moves back and forth. Ow it will be the same principle for everyone.

> >

> > Both are extremely easy to handle. A third-grader would have no problem with either system.

> >

> >

>

> Of course they are all easy but this change to esc as described requires more work for anyone that goes out and plays with others for low net. Those people don't care about handicap strokes by hole, but in 2020 it will become another step that returns the user nothing. Just like hole by hole entry, it gets the user nothing.

 

Surely it gets the user something - an official handicap. If you only ever play with your friends and never in competitions, I don’t know why you would bother keeping an official handicap at all. Just use your own score tracker to keep tabs on your performance and agree shots amongst your group. A lot simpler and maybe fairer as it appears that quite a few players don’t bother with today’s rules so who cares about tomorrow’s.

[North Butte]

> @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > @dlygrisse said:

> > > > Actually this new system is easier to remember. With the ESC I always forget where the cutoff is for max score on a hole. I’m at double, but I have a buddy who moves back and forth. Ow it will be the same principle for everyone.

> > >

> > > Both are extremely easy to handle. A third-grader would have no problem with either system.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Of course they are all easy but this change to esc as described requires more work for anyone that goes out and plays with others for low net. Those people don't care about handicap strokes by hole, but in 2020 it will become another step that returns the user nothing. Just like hole by hole entry, it gets the user nothing.

>

> Surely it gets the user something - an official handicap. If you only ever play with your friends and never in competitions, I don’t know why you would bother keeping an official handicap at all. Just use your own score tracker to keep tabs on your performance and agree shots amongst your group. A lot simpler and maybe fairer as it appears that quite a few players don’t bother with today’s rules so who cares about tomorrow’s.

 

When he says the changes "gets the user nothing" he means the changes will have no advantage for someone who has been perfectly happy with the current way handicaps have been done for two decades.

 

These guys have "an official handicap" today. They don't want or need to start dotting cards and/or transcribing a complete scorecard every one of their 100+ rounds a year in order to get what they already have. If USGA want to pointlessly complicate the process, I predict quite a few people will indeed opt out of the "improved" system.

[ThinkingPlus]

You know GHIN should really be rolling out the new mobile app with hole by hole scoring right now if they plan on adding that feature. They will need at least 3 months of debug to get it right. LOL.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @"North Butte" said:

> > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > @dlygrisse said:

> > > > > Actually this new system is easier to remember. With the ESC I always forget where the cutoff is for max score on a hole. I’m at double, but I have a buddy who moves back and forth. Ow it will be the same principle for everyone.

> > > >

> > > > Both are extremely easy to handle. A third-grader would have no problem with either system.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Of course they are all easy but this change to esc as described requires more work for anyone that goes out and plays with others for low net. Those people don't care about handicap strokes by hole, but in 2020 it will become another step that returns the user nothing. Just like hole by hole entry, it gets the user nothing.

> >

> > Surely it gets the user something - an official handicap. If you only ever play with your friends and never in competitions, I don’t know why you would bother keeping an official handicap at all. Just use your own score tracker to keep tabs on your performance and agree shots amongst your group. A lot simpler and maybe fairer as it appears that quite a few players don’t bother with today’s rules so who cares about tomorrow’s.

>

> When he says the changes "gets the user nothing" he means the changes will have no advantage for someone who has been perfectly happy with the current way handicaps have been done for two decades.

>

> These guys have "an official handicap" today. They don't want or need to start dotting cards and/or transcribing a complete scorecard every one of their 100+ rounds a year in order to get what they already have. If USGA want to pointlessly complicate the process, I predict quite a few people will indeed opt out of the "improved" system.

 

^^^ this x1000! I guess @"Deceptively Short" may not have understood.

 

Again my disclaimer: they may surprise us and give us a great system that doesn't require hole by hole entry and/or converts a score card photo to auto entry. I just don't have faith given the usga's low technical IQ and historically they've been out of touch with their members. Though there is hope... the 2019 rules I liked the moment I read them!

[davep043]

> @"North Butte" said:

> > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > Surely it gets the user something - an official handicap. If you only ever play with your friends and never in competitions, I don’t know why you would bother keeping an official handicap at all. Just use your own score tracker to keep tabs on your performance and agree shots amongst your group. A lot simpler and maybe fairer as it appears that quite a few players don’t bother with today’s rules so who cares about tomorrow’s.

>

> When he says the changes "gets the user nothing" he means the changes will have no advantage for someone who has been perfectly happy with the current way handicaps have been done for two decades.

>

> These guys have "an official handicap" today. They don't want or need to start dotting cards and/or transcribing a complete scorecard every one of their 100+ rounds a year in order to get what they already have. If USGA want to pointlessly complicate the process, I predict quite a few people will indeed opt out of the "improved" system.

 

The USGA is GOING to change the system. Its not complicated, and its not pointless. The players can choose whether they want to post within the rules or not. The players will either need to learn to "dot their cards" or find some other way to post properly. And to be honest, if they choose to leave the handicap system over a change this trivial, I don't think the handicap system will miss them.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @davep043 said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > > Surely it gets the user something - an official handicap. If you only ever play with your friends and never in competitions, I don’t know why you would bother keeping an official handicap at all. Just use your own score tracker to keep tabs on your performance and agree shots amongst your group. A lot simpler and maybe fairer as it appears that quite a few players don’t bother with today’s rules so who cares about tomorrow’s.

> >

> > When he says the changes "gets the user nothing" he means the changes will have no advantage for someone who has been perfectly happy with the current way handicaps have been done for two decades.

> >

> > These guys have "an official handicap" today. They don't want or need to start dotting cards and/or transcribing a complete scorecard every one of their 100+ rounds a year in order to get what they already have. If USGA want to pointlessly complicate the process, I predict quite a few people will indeed opt out of the "improved" system.

>

> The USGA is GOING to change the system. Its not complicated, and its not pointless. The players can choose whether they want to post within the rules or not. The players will either need to learn to "dot their cards" or find some other way to post properly. And to be honest, if they choose to leave the handicap system over a change this trivial, I don't think the handicap system will miss them.

 

Sorry Dave but you are way off base. The point of the handicap system is to allow those with different capabilities to have fun competing at all levels. So yes the handicap system WILL miss the engagement in the game of those golfers.

 

As to the point of the change to the handicap system? So we can have WHS? That's a contrived farce by the usga. They only got a something like a 0.6% response rate to their survey. Likely biased, maybe just the way they wanted it.

[North Butte]

> @davep043 said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > > Surely it gets the user something - an official handicap. If you only ever play with your friends and never in competitions, I don’t know why you would bother keeping an official handicap at all. Just use your own score tracker to keep tabs on your performance and agree shots amongst your group. A lot simpler and maybe fairer as it appears that quite a few players don’t bother with today’s rules so who cares about tomorrow’s.

> >

> > When he says the changes "gets the user nothing" he means the changes will have no advantage for someone who has been perfectly happy with the current way handicaps have been done for two decades.

> >

> > These guys have "an official handicap" today. They don't want or need to start dotting cards and/or transcribing a complete scorecard every one of their 100+ rounds a year in order to get what they already have. If USGA want to pointlessly complicate the process, I predict quite a few people will indeed opt out of the "improved" system.

>

> The USGA is GOING to change the system. Its not complicated, and its not pointless. The players can choose whether they want to post within the rules or not. The players will either need to learn to "dot their cards" or find some other way to post properly. And to be honest, if they choose to leave the handicap system over a change this trivial, I don't think the handicap system will miss them.

 

As I said upthread, mostly when it comes to "net double bogey" the guys who've been picking up at (gross) double and writing down a 6 will keep doing just that. So I don't know that it will matter a lot to that type of golfer. It's a mostly neutral change with no real cost or benefit other than the immediate confusion when it's announced.

 

OTOH, the idea of having every golfer in GHIN suddenly start transcribing 100+ scorecards a year in order to end up with EXACTLY the same handicap service they're getting now by typing in a single score...that's going to be a bad look all around. If I happens, that is.

 

Riddle me this, is there any inkling or hint from USGA that they have any such plan to *require* hole by hole score transcription? Or is that yet another of the things that get made up in these discussions out of wishful thinking?

[LICC]

> @davep043 said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > > Surely it gets the user something - an official handicap. If you only ever play with your friends and never in competitions, I don’t know why you would bother keeping an official handicap at all. Just use your own score tracker to keep tabs on your performance and agree shots amongst your group. A lot simpler and maybe fairer as it appears that quite a few players don’t bother with today’s rules so who cares about tomorrow’s.

> >

> > When he says the changes "gets the user nothing" he means the changes will have no advantage for someone who has been perfectly happy with the current way handicaps have been done for two decades.

> >

> > These guys have "an official handicap" today. They don't want or need to start dotting cards and/or transcribing a complete scorecard every one of their 100+ rounds a year in order to get what they already have. If USGA want to pointlessly complicate the process, I predict quite a few people will indeed opt out of the "improved" system.

>

> The USGA is GOING to change the system. Its not complicated, and its not pointless. The players can choose whether they want to post within the rules or not. The players will either need to learn to "dot their cards" or find some other way to post properly. And to be honest, if they choose to leave the handicap system over a change this trivial, I don't think the handicap system will miss them.

 

How can you possibly think entering hole by hole scores isn’t a burden compared to just entering your one final score? If the USGA does this they will be changing back within a couple years due to all the complaints.

[North Butte]

My memory is getting vague in my old age (OK, not that old but pretty vague) but I seem to remember in the 90's the USGA Handicap System did involve turning in cards for someone in the pro shop to transcribe into "the computer". So I think they had a system somewhat like that which got replaced with GHIN in order to appeal to a wider subscriber base.

[CaseyC]

> > > @"North Butte" said:

 

>

> So yes the handicap system WILL miss the engagement in the game of those golfers.

>

 

Are you suggesting these golfers will choose to stop having an official handicap rather than adapt?

How do you think they will deal with "handicaps" in their little groups if they refuse to adapt?

 

[North Butte]

No idea. I just can't imagine these guys transcribing 250 complete scorecards a year. It's a ridiculous notion.

[Augster]

Are these guys still putting with anchored belly putters and broomsticks? Still dropping from shoulder height? Still posting solo scores? I’d guess the vast majority of players that want to keep a cap have made the changes required to stay in compliance and keep a legal cap.

 

Hole by hole scoring will be no different if it comes about. Players that want to keep a legal cap will make the very simple change. All of the chicken little rhetoric is baffling and ridiculous. If they say scores must be posted hole by hole, players are going to post hole by hole. Some may not like it and will grumble (read this thread) but they’ll comply.

 

Much ado about nothing.

[Colin L]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > > > Surely it gets the user something - an official handicap. If you only ever play with your friends and never in competitions, I don’t know why you would bother keeping an official handicap at all. Just use your own score tracker to keep tabs on your performance and agree shots amongst your group. A lot simpler and maybe fairer as it appears that quite a few players don’t bother with today’s rules so who cares about tomorrow’s.

> > >

> > > When he says the changes "gets the user nothing" he means the changes will have no advantage for someone who has been perfectly happy with the current way handicaps have been done for two decades.

> > >

> > > These guys have "an official handicap" today. They don't want or need to start dotting cards and/or transcribing a complete scorecard every one of their 100+ rounds a year in order to get what they already have. If USGA want to pointlessly complicate the process, I predict quite a few people will indeed opt out of the "improved" system.

> >

> > The USGA is GOING to change the system. Its not complicated, and its not pointless. The players can choose whether they want to post within the rules or not. The players will either need to learn to "dot their cards" or find some other way to post properly. And to be honest, if they choose to leave the handicap system over a change this trivial, I don't think the handicap system will miss them.

>

> Sorry Dave but you are way off base. The point of the handicap system is to allow those with different capabilities to have fun competing at all levels. So yes the handicap system WILL miss the engagement in the game of those golfers.

>

> As to the point of the change to the handicap system? So we can have WHS? That's a contrived farce by the usga. They only got a something like a 0.6% response rate to their survey. Likely biased, maybe just the way they wanted it.

 

There is rather more to the golfing world than the United States. Perhaps you may have to put up with this hugely time-consuming and exhausting business of recording a score hole by hole in a totally useless and pointless system for the sake of others around the planet. Perhaps you might not as it will be up to the USGA whether it requires you to or not. But perhaps consider that hole by hole scoring helps prevent mistakes by players left to calculate net double bogeys (I know plenty who wouldn't recognise a net double bogey if it jumped up and bit them on the bum), mistakes made in just adding up scores (and I see plenty of those too) and mistakes made by memories less perfect than yours (like mine). In short, hole by hole scoring and leaving the computers to do the calculations helps to maintain accuracy and preserves the integrity of the system. That has a value to be weighed against the supposed inconvenience of noting someone's score hole by hole.

 

Because of this discussion, I was more than usually aware of my group's cards being marked during a Stableford competition yesterday. It was done routinely, was truly effortless and had zero impact on our pace of play. I hoped that the rain which was making the cards a tad soggy would obliterate some of my scores, but sadly the whole truth remained legible to the end.

[LICC]

> @"Colin L" said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > @davep043 said:

> > > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > > > > Surely it gets the user something - an official handicap. If you only ever play with your friends and never in competitions, I don’t know why you would bother keeping an official handicap at all. Just use your own score tracker to keep tabs on your performance and agree shots amongst your group. A lot simpler and maybe fairer as it appears that quite a few players don’t bother with today’s rules so who cares about tomorrow’s.

> > > >

> > > > When he says the changes "gets the user nothing" he means the changes will have no advantage for someone who has been perfectly happy with the current way handicaps have been done for two decades.

> > > >

> > > > These guys have "an official handicap" today. They don't want or need to start dotting cards and/or transcribing a complete scorecard every one of their 100+ rounds a year in order to get what they already have. If USGA want to pointlessly complicate the process, I predict quite a few people will indeed opt out of the "improved" system.

> > >

> > > The USGA is GOING to change the system. Its not complicated, and its not pointless. The players can choose whether they want to post within the rules or not. The players will either need to learn to "dot their cards" or find some other way to post properly. And to be honest, if they choose to leave the handicap system over a change this trivial, I don't think the handicap system will miss them.

> >

> > Sorry Dave but you are way off base. The point of the handicap system is to allow those with different capabilities to have fun competing at all levels. So yes the handicap system WILL miss the engagement in the game of those golfers.

> >

> > As to the point of the change to the handicap system? So we can have WHS? That's a contrived farce by the usga. They only got a something like a 0.6% response rate to their survey. Likely biased, maybe just the way they wanted it.

>

> There is rather more to the golfing world than the United States. Perhaps you may have to put up with this hugely time-consuming and exhausting business of recording a score hole by hole in a totally useless and pointless system for the sake of others around the planet. Perhaps you might not as it will be up to the USGA whether it requires you to or not. But perhaps consider that hole by hole scoring helps prevent mistakes by players left to calculate net double bogeys (I know plenty who wouldn't recognise a net double bogey if it jumped up and bit them on the bum), mistakes made in just adding up scores (and I see plenty of those too) and mistakes made by memories less perfect than yours (like mine). In short, hole by hole scoring and leaving the computers to do the calculations helps to maintain accuracy and preserves the integrity of the system. That has a value to be weighed against the supposed inconvenience of noting someone's score hole by hole.

>

> Because of this discussion, I was more than usually aware of my group's cards being marked during a Stableford competition yesterday. It was done routinely, was truly effortless and had zero impact on our pace of play. I hoped that the rain which was making the cards a tad soggy would obliterate some of my scores, but sadly the whole truth remained legible to the end.

 

The U.S. by far has the greatest number of golfers in the world. It is ridiculous to make entering your score more burdensome. Your handicap is based on your final adjusted score. That is the number required to be entered. Requiring hole by hole scoring is obnoxious.

[North Butte]

> @Augster said:

> Are these guys still putting with anchored belly putters and broomsticks? Still dropping from shoulder height? Still posting solo scores? I’d guess the vast majority of players that want to keep a cap have made the changes required to stay in compliance and keep a legal cap.

>

> Hole by hole scoring will be no different if it comes about. Players that want to keep a legal cap will make the very simple change. All of the chicken little rhetoric is baffling and ridiculous. If they say scores must be posted hole by hole, players are going to post hole by hole. Some may not like it and will grumble (read this thread) but they’ll comply.

>

> Much ado about nothing.

 

Yes, they are still posting solo scores. Even when I literally printed out the announcement of the new rule from USGA's web site and showed it to them.

 

You have no idea how long it takes some people to acknowledge even *very* simple and straightforward changes to the handicap system. I still occasionally meet people who simply round off their index rather than using their Course Handicap. That's after, what, something like 30 years of the current system?

[davep043]

So many comments overnight! I'll respond to a few.

First, nobody knows whether the USGA will require hole-by-hole posting, it was merely suggested as one means of enforcing the revised maximum hole scores, which are thought by a few to be so complicated that many players won't be able to adapt.

 

I agree with @Augster, the new max hole scores, hole by hole entry (if required), and the entire system will require rather small changes that the vast majority of players will adjust to, to the best of their ability. Certainly some will remain blissfully ignorant, some will resist simply because they hate change, and a few may drop out of the system. And the folks who drop out of the official handicap system are unlikely to stop playing golf, they just won't keep a handicap. None of that really bothers me, there have always been those who don't or can't follow the rules.

 

in response to @LICC, the number(s) that are required are whatever the governing body decides. If the USGA decides that they want a golfer to spend an additional 30 seconds to enter scores each time he takes 4 hours to play a round of golf, that's their prerogative. Yeah, we're talking about 30 seconds as compared to a (nominal) 4 hours round of golf, it doesn't seem so significant putting it that way. And yes, I did h-b-h posting for an entire summer, that's all the extra time it takes.

 

And the USGA will change back within a couple of years? People were saying that the knee-high-drop would be changed back before the end of the year. Does anyone see that happening now? Have we heard a single complaint over the last few months? People can and will adapt, for the most part.

 

As far as the WHS being driven by the USGA, I simply don't know, I'm sure you don't know either. I do find it hard to believe that the USGA could strong-arm CONGU and our Australian and European and South American and the South African friends into changing something that they didn't want to, or didn't see the value in.

[ThinkingPlus]

Quick question. Does the USGA have all the course information to do net double computations in the national course database? Currently in GHIN the handicap holes, par, etc... don't show up for my home course if I try h-b-h posting.

[Colin L]

The WHS development was jointly driven by the R&A and the USGA with extensive consultation with the various handicapping authorities. The number of instances of the authorities being given options to choose from (hole by hole recording being just one of them) might suggest that the R&A/USGA listened.

[LICC]

> @davep043 said:

> So many comments overnight! I'll respond to a few.

> First, nobody knows whether the USGA will require hole-by-hole posting, it was merely suggested as one means of enforcing the revised maximum hole scores, which are thought by a few to be so complicated that many players won't be able to adapt.

>

> I agree with @Augster, the new max hole scores, hole by hole entry (if required), and the entire system will require rather small changes that the vast majority of players will adjust to, to the best of their ability. Certainly some will remain blissfully ignorant, some will resist simply because they hate change, and a few may drop out of the system. And the folks who drop out of the official handicap system are unlikely to stop playing golf, they just won't keep a handicap. None of that really bothers me, there have always been those who don't or can't follow the rules.

>

> in response to @LICC, the number(s) that are required are whatever the governing body decides. If the USGA decides that they want a golfer to spend an additional 30 seconds to enter scores each time he takes 4 hours to play a round of golf, that's their prerogative. Yeah, we're talking about 30 seconds as compared to a (nominal) 4 hours round of golf, it doesn't seem so significant putting it that way. And yes, I did h-b-h posting for an entire summer, that's all the extra time it takes.

>

> And the USGA will change back within a couple of years? People were saying that the knee-high-drop would be changed back before the end of the year. Does anyone see that happening now? Have we heard a single complaint over the last few months? People can and will adapt, for the most part.

>

> As far as the WHS being driven by the USGA, I simply don't know, I'm sure you don't know either. I do find it hard to believe that the USGA could strong-arm CONGU and our Australian and European and South American and the South African friends into changing something that they didn't want to, or didn't see the value in.

 

It's not an extra 30 seconds. Because now you can punch it in while putting your bag back on your shoulder and walking to the clubhouse or your car. Hole-by-hole will require you to stop everything and go through your scorecard for each score 18 times to punch it in. And for no good reason whatsoever. It's a tin-eared suggestion.

[davep043]

> @LICC said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > in response to @LICC, the number(s) that are required are whatever the governing body decides. If the USGA decides that they want a golfer to spend an additional 30 seconds to enter scores each time he takes 4 hours to play a round of golf, that's their prerogative. Yeah, we're talking about 30 seconds as compared to a (nominal) 4 hours round of golf, it doesn't seem so significant putting it that way. And yes, I did h-b-h posting for an entire summer, that's all the extra time it takes.

> It's not an extra 30 seconds. Because now you can punch it in while putting your bag back on your shoulder and walking to the clubhouse or your car. Hole-by-hole will require you to stop everything and go through your scorecard for each score 18 times to punch it in. And for no good reason whatsoever. It's a tin-eared suggestion.

So while you're having a beer after your round you pull out your phone, just like you do now. You log in, just like you do now, select your course and the tees, just like you do now. And you enter 18 numbers, one after the other, count it out, maybe it takes a full second for each score. Time it out, 18 seconds is a long time to enter 18 numbers. Done. What's the extra time involved? Before, you entered two numbers, now you enter 18, at a second apiece. I was generous with 30 seconds. And this, after 3 or 4 or 5 hours on the course. Its a trifle, its pretty dang close to nothing at all, and you're doing it while you're having a beer. Mountains from molehills, this one. But if its enough to make you quit the handicap system, so be it.

 

[North Butte]

> @davep043 said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @davep043 said:

> > > in response to @LICC, the number(s) that are required are whatever the governing body decides. If the USGA decides that they want a golfer to spend an additional 30 seconds to enter scores each time he takes 4 hours to play a round of golf, that's their prerogative. Yeah, we're talking about 30 seconds as compared to a (nominal) 4 hours round of golf, it doesn't seem so significant putting it that way. And yes, I did h-b-h posting for an entire summer, that's all the extra time it takes.

> > It's not an extra 30 seconds. Because now you can punch it in while putting your bag back on your shoulder and walking to the clubhouse or your car. Hole-by-hole will require you to stop everything and go through your scorecard for each score 18 times to punch it in. And for no good reason whatsoever. It's a tin-eared suggestion.

> So while you're having a beer after your round you pull out your phone, just like you do now. You log in, just like you do now, select your course and the tees, just like you do now. And you enter 18 numbers, one after the other, count it out, maybe it takes a full second for each score. Time it out, 18 seconds is a long time to enter 18 numbers. Done. What's the extra time involved? Before, you entered two numbers, now you enter 18, at a second apiece. I was generous with 30 seconds. And this, after 3 or 4 or 5 hours on the course. Its a trifle, its pretty dang close to nothing at all, and you're doing it while you're having a beer. Mountains from molehills, this one. But if its enough to make you quit the handicap system, so be it.

>

 

From memory or while looking at the card? Double-checking to make sure you don't get a number wrong or not?

 

Then you also have to factor in it's now 18 times more likely you'll have to call the pro shop later and get them to fix a mistake. Because instead of just one number to potentially get wrong, there are 18.

 

I thought the idea was to get more accurate scores, right? Blitzing through 18 numbers at one second apiece off the top of your head without checking against the card is NOT the way to get less errors.

 

This digression into hole-by-hole score entry is like a microcosm of the Rules sub-forum. You've got people who are totally obsessed with Rules, scores, handicapping, whatever and they simply can not possibly fathom why anyone would NOT want to study the Rules and Decisions or not enter every single hole score of every single round of their life. Never realizing that for every one person like themselves, there are 1,000 other golfers out there just wanting to play and (for some of them) type their score into GHIN after the round.

 

And further, let's keep in mind that whether one score for the round or 18 hole scores, this is a system that lets each golfer ENTER ANY NUMBER THEY LIKE WHETHER IT'S REAL OR IMAGINED. Talking about eliminating errors in the application of ESC on pickup/blowup holes is like talking about whether the deck chairs on the Titanic should have been more comfortable.

[davep043]

> @"North Butte" said:

> Never realizing that for every one person like themselves, there are 1,000 other golfers out there just wanting to play and (for some of them) type their score into GHIN after the round.

>

> And further, let's keep in mind that whether one score for the round or 18 hole scores, this is a system that lets each golfer ENTER ANY NUMBER THEY LIKE WHETHER IT'S REAL OR IMAGINED. Talking about eliminating errors in the application of ESC on pickup/blowup holes is like talking about whether the deck chairs on the Titanic should have been more comfortable.

You're right, lets just give up. Let's abolish all rules, let's abolish the entire handicap system. Why should any of us care about trying to get the details right?

 

[North Butte]

It's fine to care about getting the details right.

 

Here's one of the "details" you should care about. How will your proposed changes to the system will be received by the people who pay to subscribe to it? And how will they handle it?

 

I'm here to tell you, for the vast majority of those paid subscribers, requiring hole by hole entry of scores is going to be infuriating and it's going to cause way more "errors" or omissions than it could ever cure.

 

I don't for a moment think USGA has any intention of requiring hole-by-hole score entry for every round that goes into GHIN. Think about the recent changes to the Rules of Golf. Many of those changes were intended to simplify the Rules and make them more accessible and more acceptable to a wider range of golfers. Those are the very changes that self-styled Rules experts often decry as watering down or "dumbing down" the game. Yet USGA persisted with (most) of the changes and there they are in the current Rules whether the cognoscenti like them or not.

 

Bless their conservative little hearts, the USGA and R&A do seem to be aware lately that they don't have free reign, forever, to do things their own way and just expected golfers to swallow it whole. I suspect they know full well that they can't "force" a million GHIN subscribers to do something they don't want to do and do it in precisely the way they're told. They aren't particularly compliant now and they aren't going to start being just because it's advertised as a World Handicap System.

[CaseyC]

> @"North Butte" said:

 

> I thought the idea was to get more accurate scores, right? Blitzing through 18 numbers at one second apiece off the top of your head without checking against the card is NOT the way to get less errors.

>

 

By entering hole by hole, the computer adds up the 9s and overall. Which is a check on the math done by the player in mentally adding his scores over 18 holes.

After entering your total score, do you go back later and double check your math?

 

 

[North Butte]

For me personally, I know my score at any point during the round and I seldom make a mistake. The only times I can think of having to have a round changed in GHIN was when I sloppily typed something like "86" on my phone keyboard when I meant to type "83" and told GHIN to go ahead and enter it without noticing the typo. That's happened maybe twice in the last 4-5 years I think.

 

But I'm not talking about me. I can tell you every yardage and club selection from my last 2-3 rounds. I'm a numbers person, like I suspect a lot of people in this thread might be. All of my comments are about the other 99% of golfers who don't obsess over numbers.

 

In my groups, a typical post-round discussion includes each person in a foursome either looking at the card or asking the guy who was keeping the guy "What did you have me for?". They type that number in without a moment's thought about double checking. It's just assumed whoever kept the card did it correctly.

 

Those guys are not going to be willing to carefully peruse the scribbled numbers in every cell on the scorecard and transcribe them onto their phone screen. If you asked them to do it, they'd say don't be ridiculous.

[davep043]

> @CaseyC said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

>

> > I thought the idea was to get more accurate scores, right? Blitzing through 18 numbers at one second apiece off the top of your head without checking against the card is NOT the way to get less errors.

> >

>

> By entering hole by hole, the computer adds up the 9s and overall. Which is a check on the math done by the player in mentally adding his scores over 18 holes.

> After entering your total score, do you go back later and double check your math?

>

Exactly as you say, when I entered the h-b-h scores, I first looked at the computer totals for each 9 to verify. I could also see there the computer had highlighted the holes where the ESC (soon to be max hole score) revised the gross score. It is just not as error-prone or time-consuming as the detractors think. As an experiment for anyone who wants to try, pull up the calculator app on your cell phone, or any other app that uses the big numeric keyboard. Find a string of random numbers, maybe the bank code and account number from a check, and enter it in via the keyboard on your phone. How long did it take?

[CaseyC]

> @"North Butte" said:

 

>

> I'm here to tell you, for the vast majority of those paid subscribers, requiring hole by hole entry of scores is going to be infuriating and it's going to cause way more "errors" or omissions than it could ever cure.

>

 

I believe you are wrong.