Rules: Another what would you have done thread.

[leezer99]

The event(s) follow usga rules. Clubs are not on the usga list of conforming clubs but are being used. How is this being evasive? Seems simple to me but to make sure you understand, I have spoken to the manufacturer and they said they have not been sent in for testing.

[leezer99]

It would seem that the USGA addresses this and like most things the USGA puts out isn't a simple black or white answer.

A. Queries Arising Before the Competition Begins

Officials should always ascertain why the player, fellow-competitor, opponent or third party is querying the club.

A positive ruling should only be given at this stage if the Official is absolutely certain he or she is correct. As a precautionary measure, always refer to the Equipment Rules, the Rules of Golf, and the Official Guide to the Rules of Golf before giving the ruling.

If the Official is not certain of the ruling, and time permits, advice should be sought from The R&A or USGA. First, it should be determined whether the club has ever been formally submitted for a decision.

If an R&A or USGA decision exists, and the Official is made aware of that decision in time, the player should be informed accordingly.

If there is no R&A or USGA decision on record, the Official should provide The R&A or USGA with a detailed description of the club. If time permits and appropriate facilities exist, an e-mailed or texted image should be sent. The R&A or USGA will then offer as much guidance as possible based on the information given – and in most cases, offer a recommended ruling.

The Official should make a ruling on the club based on the advice given by The R&A or USGA. If the club is clearly either ‘conforming’ or ‘non-conforming’, the Official should provide a ruling to that effect. However, if there is even a small amount of uncertainty, the Official should only offer a Duration of Competition or Duration of Round Answer.

If, due to the close proximity of a player’s starting time, the Official cannot reasonably seek advice, or is unable to contact The R&A or USGA, then he or she should advise the player not to carry the club for that round.

If later advice confirms that the club does conform and the player has already started his or her round without the club, then the player should be given a formal ruling as soon as possible. This would mean that the player could add the club to his or her bag during the round (provided the player had started with less than 14) or could carry the club in the next round. If later advice confirms that the club probably conforms and the player has already started his or her round without the club, then the player should be advised as soon as possible that he or she can use the club for the duration of the competition in stroke play (Duration of Competition Answer) or for the duration of the round in match play (Duration of Round Answer). This would also mean that the player could add the club to his or her bag during that round (provided the player had started with less than 14).

Any player who ignores an Official’s advice and carries a doubtful club would be subject to penalty under Rule 4.1 of the Rules of Golf in the event of a subsequent non-conforming Duration of Competition, Duration of Round Answer, or formal ruling. This would apply whether the competition was closed or not.

D. Queries Arising After Competition Closed

Once a competition has closed, there is plenty of time to contact The R&A or USGA to find out whether the club conforms or not and/ or to submit the club. If it turns out that the club is non-conforming, the decision whether to disqualify the player or not depends on whether he or she knew the club was non-conforming (see Rule 20.2e(2)). This is a question of fact, but in determining the facts, the Committee may wish to consider other evidence as well as the player’s own statement.

Conclusion

The vast majority of golf clubs conform to the Rules and, therefore, equipment conformance queries of this kind are rare. However, queries do arise from time to time and Officials need to know how to deal with them. It is important to remember that it is a player’s responsibility to play with conforming clubs. He or she cannot shift this responsibility to the Official. For their part, Officials should respond to such queries with due consideration to all parties involved. Appropriate consultations should be made (i.e. referencing the Equipment Rules, the Rules of Golf, and the Interpretation of the Rules of Golfs, contacting The R&A or USGA, etc.). If it is not possible to give a definitive ruling straight away, a Duration of Competition or Duration of Round Answer should be given (but see A7).

In giving Duration of Competition or Duration of Round Answers, Officials in doubt should err towards deeming clubs to conform. Penalizing a player for carrying or using a club that later turns out to be conforming is a more serious error than allowing use of a club which later turns out to be non-conforming.

[wildcatden]

So definitely sounds like you are talking about new clubs not yet certified.

[Fairway14]

Unless the event is an actual USGA event (and the National Junior is the only tournament that the USGA hosts) USGA Rules allow "2010 Groove Rule clubs to be used until 2024".

Regarding the USGA's annual "list of conforming clubs", it is not a Rule of Golf that a club model/design be submitted to the USGA and, or, be included on any list of conforming clubs.

 

[Fairway14]

 

If you contact the USGA the representative will ask you why you are "querying the club (s)"?

And that is the same question myself and others on this thread have asked you. Again, a club (s) lack of inclusion on a conforming list does not make it "non conforming" to the Rules of Golf.

[JuniorGolfParent]

I guess a question I would have is, would it be widely accepted or understood that the player with the non-conforming clubs would have an advantage?

[Fairway14]

Your question is good, and a logical one, but it is not especially relevant to any of the Rules of Golf, including equipment related Rules.

Consider that the famous 2010 Groove Rule came about simply because Arnold Palmer telephoned the USGA and complained that Tour pros were holding greens from lies within the rough. Former USGA equipment/technical Director Dick Rugge told me that without Palmer's influence the 2010 Groove Rule (a waste of time and money for the entire golf industry) , never would have happened.

[leezer99]

Good conversation by all. I'm going to drop the conversation at this point because I respect both the player and manufacturer. At least I learned something and hope to continue to do so.

[kekoa]

The whole conformity issue was the last thing on my mind when entering an FCG tournament for 9-10 yr olds and 99.9% of the time is a non-issue when it comes to irons. It's funny because the kid you are questioning had 4 irons, hybrids, and woods into most the par 4's and even par 5's. The course played ridiculously long especially on the first day. Anyhow, I know one of the founders of the company pretty well. They are very confident grooves are conforming. A set hasn't been sent in to the USGA yet due to supply, but they will shortly. The engineer involved was specifically directed to make the grooves USGA conforming and the forging house also produces clubs for several OEM's. The irons aren't being produced at some mom and pop facility. He talked about the irons for a few years now so it is pretty cool to see something go from paper/blueprints to actual product. The irons in question are tailored specifically to junior golfers who want a forged head with the ability to adjust weight as kids get bigger/stronger. A few pics for those that wanted to see the actual iron.

[leezer99]

Glad to hear @kekoa. I expect these to be huge in the junior market come February when Pat gets his supply in. Proper weighting in a forged design will be a godsend.

[wildcatden]

Have seen the iGenGolf irons on a couple Instagram accounts. Good looking club. Forged is an awesome touch. Weighted design and interchangable looks cool also assuming a junior doesn't wear out the face will all of their center strikes.

 

The price point will be the curious factor. TS3-54" clubs (5-SW) from USKids are $400 shipped to your door. Getting your 6th club free on the USKids Buy-5-get-one-free program adds another $11.95. Will iGenGolf be pricing just below USKids to get market share or at PXG levels for the cachet?

[darter79]

 

my sources say it will be closer to a $1000 set. It won’t be close to uskg prices but they have real shafts in them. A friend who got theirs had recoils in them. They look good and have a ton of potential but he needs to price them right or they won’t sell.

[kekoa]

Will be above US Kids and below PXG by a good margin, but pricing isn't firm yet. Note that the igens are forged and very bendable. Included with the set will likely be recoil shafts, which seems very popular among good juniors.

[wildcatden]

Did a quick lookup on some competition:

Wilson FG Tour V6 (4-PW) with Recoils = ~$900

Cobra Forged Tec (4-PW) with Recoils = ~$1200

 

Might be a tough sell for them. However, if the clubs perform then they should be able to build the brand.

 

[tiger1873]

Not sure there is that much demand for a junior set close to $1000. It's an interesting idea but there are so many ways you can already customize stuff out there already. I know a lot people try and get the perfect clubs but there is no way these clubs perform better then flynn or US kids. I would almost bet that the extra tinkering and messing with weights is actually worse.

Having gone through this the best thing you can do is buy a set 1-2 sizes up in US kids lenth and let them grow into it. If your lucky they last a year. The only issue this causes is you really can't play tournaments year round but in my opinion if the kid is under 10 (which is where you start thinking about adult clubs) There really is no need to play tournaments year round either.

[JuniorGolfParent]

I am a bit ignorant on this (my son is still using US Kids Tour Series), but why wouldn't someone looking for an upgrade from US Kids or Flynn simply go with adult clubheads?

[tiger1873]

Actually adult clubs is usually the path people take if your looking to upgrade. I think there is some concern about weight of clubs but honestly in my opinion if a kid doesn't have the swing speed for ladies clubs there is really not much need to move a kid up to anything better then the tour series US Kids or Flynn clubs. Kids just need to play golf and have fun at this age. If you think you need $1000 Plus clubs your buying into the argument that equipment is better then the fundamentals.

[darter79]

The concept behind these is they are lighter weight heads that have interchangeable weight kits so that you can increase head weight as your kid grows or gains speed and strength.

[heavy_hitter]

If you are going to spend that kind of money, get fitted.

Would be interesting to see how they compare to US Kids and Flynn on a launch monitor. Even compare with Adult OEMS. Spin Rates, Elevation, Angle coming into the greens all have to be taken into account.

 

They are a sexy looking iron.

[wildcatden]

 

Yeah, I would definitely get fitted if looking to spend that much. I'd even add these Ben Hogan PTx's to the list for $600 (forged and with Recoils).

 

[kekoa]

Only time will tell. If I was in the market, I'd buy the Igen's over US Kids or Flynn all day long for several reasons. My son has been playing with adult irons since 7 so there is no turning back now. Once production sets arrive, I'm sure they will do a trackman comparison between these and other competitors.

IMO, the worst thing you can do is buy irons or any club that are too long for a junior. I'd rather a club be a bit shorter than longer. Also, kids are experimented with adult and other heads a lot earlier than 10.

[jj9000]

Wait.

Are you telling me that I shouldn't be using the "just choke down" method for my 7YO, hitting a 45" 8.5* Tour Issued G400 LST?

I'm doing this all wrong.

[tiger1873]

 

I used to worry about having the correct lenth irons all the time but once a kid hit's a growth spurt you find out they need new clubs every week. I went nuts trying to keep clubs that fit with my oldest. She grew over a 1ft in a year and it was a nightmare. Looking back I should have just made the clubs longer let her choke up and and been done with it.

I just think it's going to be a hard sell for these irons. The market has to be very very small for these irons. There are already good options for most kids. I would be surprised if they could even sell 100 sets.

[heavy_hitter]

They will sell far more than 100 sets. Golf parents are nuts. I would have purchased a set of these. Growth is no issue. Buy irons that fit. When they grow put an extension in them. Easy stuff.

[Kcct82]

Theoretically, these heads allow you to bend them and add weight. So instead of buying TS3 51”, then 54” and so on, you get to reuse the IGEN’s for a long time which might offset the extra cost. FWIW, I don’t like the look of those 5 weights in the back...

 

[tiger1873]

For some kids this will actually work out. The issue I see if you have a kid that practices a lot the clubs will see extensive wear. The fact that these are forged means they will wear much more then other junior clubs.

at the end of the day with juniors new irons every year makes sense. If the clubs they have are still in good shape you can almost certainly sell them. The difference it costs is what I am most concerned with for me that usually around $200-$300 a year if I get 40-50% value. If there worn out and trash it just means we used them a lot.

I understand the concept but it seems like these irons are meant for parents who overthink equipment. I fail to see how Igen will actually lower scores for kids vs equipment that already exist. Both US Kids and Flynn our a great product for kids who need light irons and I see a lot kids who hit them well enough to win a lot.

 

[jj9000]

I see your point, but, it may be based on invalid assumptions. Rarely do I see parents understanding and adjusting swingweight on USK or Flynn irons. What if a junior gains distance and accuracy by playing a heavier/lighter swingweight?

I know I'll spray the ball all over the yard at D0 swingweight. Get me to D4-5 and I'm good to go. What's to say juniors won't benefit from the same customization options?

Using your logic, juniors should still play with persimmon and cut down Wilson blades because thousands of junior Tournaments have been won with that combo, which was good enough to win.

[tiger1873]

i have nothing wrong with concept I just think most kids who are using junior clubs are still learning to hit the ball.

IN a lot cases all a kid needs to do is pick up a club and hit it. Swing weight type of club and other minor factors are not going hurt that much if they practice. I just think there is no such thing as a perfect club for anyone and at some point you have to adjust and use it. You just have to find something you can hit and go from there.

[Kcct82]

Did you get a good look at the igen clubs at Western Cup? What do u think about them?

[kekoa]

Yah, the kid playing them was my son's partner so we got to hit them. Very forgiving and have that soft forged feel. I even busted the 4 iron out there 200 which is pretty good with a midget club. lmao!