Change of match outcome

[Prut]

We played our semifinals in my league last night. There are five man teams -- five individual matches. Our team was declared the winner with two wins, two ties and one loss.

 

I kept the score in one of the matches that was declared a tie. The scorecard I turned in was correct which showed the opposing team player winning the match by one point (You get 4 points for a birdie, two for a par, one for a bogie, etc.) While both players shot 40, which I also put on the card, the opposing team player had 15 points while my guy had 14.

 

We turned in the card and after putting our gear up, went to retrieve it when we thought the match was tied for a playoff. The club, however, declared that match a tie and us the winners.

 

The opposing team did not raise an issue on the result last night. Now this morning, they are contesting the declared result. Is there a rule that applies to this situation? The closest I can find is Rule 20.1B: "The agreed outcome is conclusive even it turns out to be wrong under the rules, so long as the players did not deliberately agree to ignore any rule or penalty they knew applied."

 

Appreciate any help I can get in preparing our case in the event of an adverse ruling.

[Sawgrass]

There is no "marker" in match play, only in stroke play.  What did the participants in the match believe happened?

[nsxguy]

11 minutes ago, Prut said:

We played our semifinals in my league last night. There are five man teams -- five individual matches. Our team was declared the winner with two wins, two ties and one loss.

 

I kept the score in one of the matches that was declared a tie. The scorecard I turned in was correct which showed the opposing team player winning the match by one point (You get 4 points for a birdie, two for a par, one for a bogie, etc.) While both players shot 40, which I also put on the card, the opposing team player had 15 points while my guy had 14.

 

We turned in the card and after putting our gear up, went to retrieve it when we thought the match was tied for a playoff. The club, however, declared that match a tie and us the winners.

 

The opposing team did not raise an issue on the result last night. Now this morning, they are contesting the declared result. Is there a rule that applies to this situation? The closest I can find is Rule 20.1B: "The agreed outcome is conclusive even it turns out to be wrong under the rules, so long as the players did not deliberately agree to ignore any rule or penalty they knew applied."

 

Appreciate any help I can get in preparing our case in the event of an adverse ruling.

 

An adverse ruling meaning the club would correct ITS mistake, declare it a tie, and make your team play to break the tie ? That adverse ruling ?

 

Frankly, if it was me, I'd have checked the results at the time knowing I'd had the right score. So it wouldn't have gotten that far.

 

But you want the win even though it was a tie because the club messed up ? Tsk, tsk.

 

FWIW, 20+ years ago our club made a mistake in its seedings for the Club Championship. There was only 1 match played the first day of the tournament and the players should NOT have been playing each other. We wrote to the USGA and they said that being there was only the single match, it would be appropriate to cancel the match, re-seed, and start over. Had it been later in the tournament though, tough luck - played matches and seedings should stand. That said they also made it pretty clear that it was the club's decision as to how to proceed.

 

So I guess your Committee/Club could say "Sorry about that, result stands", OR "Our bad, playoff". If possible I'd vote for the latter (playoff). That said, depending on your club, course, etc. it may not be practical to play a few holes to break the tie.

[Prut]

7 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

There is no "marker" in match play, only in stroke play.  What did the participants in the match believe happened?

I believed the match was a tie, as did our entire team. We suited up for the playoff. The other team seemed to believe they lost the match.

[rogolf]

6 minutes ago, Prut said:

I believed the match was a tie, as did our entire team. We suited up for the playoff. The other team seemed to believe they lost the match.

In the form of play you've described, you were playing a form of stroke play, not match play.  Match play scoring is done by holes, not the number of strokes or points.  As Sawgrass said, match play does not need a scorecard - if you're keeping track of individual hole scores, you are playing some form of stroke play.

Rule 20.1b is irrelevant to your situation as it only concerns match play and Rules decisions between a player and his or her opponent.

If the Committee has made an administrative error in determining the results, they should correct that administrative error.

[Prut]

6 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

An adverse ruling meaning the club would correct ITS mistake, declare it a tie, and make your team play to break the tie ? That adverse ruling ?

 

Frankly, if it was me, I'd have checked the results at the time knowing I'd had the right score. So it wouldn't have gotten that far.

 

But you want the win even though it was a tie because the club messed up ? Tsk, tsk.

 

FWIW, 20+ years ago our club made a mistake in its seedings for the Club Championship. There was only 1 match played the first day of the tournament and the players should NOT have been playing each other. We wrote to the USGA and they said that being there was only the single match, it would be appropriate to cancel the match, re-seed, and start over. Had it been later in the tournament though, tough luck - played matches and seedings should stand. That said they also made it pretty clear that it was the club's decision as to how to proceed.

 

So I guess your Committee/Club could say "Sorry about that, result stands", OR "Our bad, playoff". If possible I'd vote for the latter (playoff). That said, depending on your club, course, etc. it may not be practical to play a few holes to break the tie.

I was admittedly flippant in the way I phrased my question and don't relish winning that way. I spoke openly in the clubhouse about us losing that match. Not sure how much more I could have done.

[Prut]

Appreciate the info. It's why I asked. Should probably be replayed, though it would probably be quite the undertaking to arrange to replay the match. 

[CaseyC]

If I was in the OPs shoes, I'd argue the match was a tie.  Golf, honor, and all that...

[rogolf]

2 minutes ago, Prut said:

Appreciate the info. It's why I asked. Should probably be replayed, though it would probably be quite the undertaking to arrange to replay the match. 

Tell us why you think it should be replayed?  And what is "it"?

[Prut]

2 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Tell us why you think it should be replayed?  And what is "it"?

I meant the finals are scheduled for next week. Could be difficult to get everyone together for a playoff, but it looks like that is what's going to happen.

[nsxguy]

12 minutes ago, Prut said:

I was admittedly flippant in the way I phrased my question and don't relish winning that way. I spoke openly in the clubhouse about us losing that match. Not sure how much more I could have done.

 

Didn't you turn in your scorecards to somebody ? Didn't somebody calculate and announce or otherwise record the results right then and there ? Didn't the 2 teams verify the results ?

 

I know in my old club match results are known quickly after the round. They are verified the players and re-verified by the teams if they're not all playing together, which in your case is what happened.

 

If the 2 teams agreed, our club simply accepts and wouldn't even verify. Of course if they didn't agree, all scores would be gone over carefully while both teams were present.

 

This next day stuff wouldn't happen.

[Prut]

Yes. We checked the cards in our group and agreed on the results. Then turned them in at the Pro Shop. And then sat around discussing it. I guess the issue is the pro shop looked at the scores and not the points. It was pretty confusing for about 20 minutes, and like I said, we suited up for the playoff.

 

I'm ashamed now I did not protest the result, but nobody else did either. 

Edited September 11, 2020 by Prut

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, Prut said:

Yes. We checked the cards in our group and agreed on the results. Then turned them in at the Pro Shop. And then sat around discussing it. I guess the issue is the pro shop looked at the scores and not the points. It was pretty confusing for about 20 minutes, and like I said, we suited up for the playoff.

 

Nothing to be ashamed of but BOTH teams should've verified the result with the Pro Shop/Committee/Club/whatever before they left the course.

 

They are the ones responsible for messing up the result.

 

 

Edited September 11, 2020 by nsxguy

[ChipNRun]

And everyone tells me that match play is more fun than stroke play...

[davep043]

1 hour ago, ChipNRun said:

And everyone tells me that match play is more fun than stroke play...

This wasn't match play.

From the original description, this was some type of modified Stableford competition.  The players apparently got the scores and the points correct, which was their only duty, the staff screwed up by looking at the stroke total instead of the point total.

Edited September 11, 2020 by davep043

[Newby]

49 minutes ago, davep043 said:

This wasn't match play.

 

That's how I see it also

[Bushwood Country Club]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

Nothing to be ashamed of but BOTH teams should've verified the result with the Pro Shop/Committee/Club/whatever before they left the course.

 

They are the ones responsible for messing up the result.

 

(BTW, you might want to edit out the political stuff in your post - like I did - rather than have it deleted)

What does that even mean?  Are we editing / deleting posts for "political correctness" here now?  

[nsxguy]

1 minute ago, Bushwood Country Club said:

What does that even mean?  Are we editing / deleting posts for "political correctness" here now?  

 

I know they're long but have you read the site's Rules ?

[Prut]

Sudden death playoff Monday evening. Any one have any ideas on how handicaps would/should be applied in a sudden death stableford format team match? The original competition was based on handicaps. For instance, I needed 14 points and my opponent needed 16. I won the match because I had 11 points (-3) and he had 12 (-4) . All they told us was first team to get 3 points on a hole wins.

 

One team has better golfers. Four on that team carry single digit handicaps; only two on the other team are single digit. Seems to me handicaps should apply to be fair and stay consistent with original competition. I’m just having difficulty see how that would manifest in sudden death.

[rogolf]

11 minutes ago, Prut said:

Sudden death playoff Monday evening. Any one have any ideas on how handicaps would/should be applied in a sudden death stableford format team match? The original competition was based on handicaps. For instance, I needed 14 points and my opponent needed 16. I won the match because I had 11 points (-3) and he had 12 (-4) . All they told us was first team to get 3 points on a hole wins.

 

One team has better golfers. Four on that team carry single digit handicaps; only two on the other team are single digit. Seems to me handicaps should apply to be fair and stay consistent with original competition. I’m just having difficulty see how that would manifest in sudden death.

Seems to me that the only way to do sudden-death with handicaps is to use the handicap stroke index on the scorecard.

[nsxguy]

28 minutes ago, Prut said:

Sudden death playoff Monday evening. Any one have any ideas on how handicaps would/should be applied in a sudden death stableford format team match? The original competition was based on handicaps. For instance, I needed 14 points and my opponent needed 16. I won the match because I had 11 points (-3) and he had 12 (-4) . All they told us was first team to get 3 points on a hole wins.

 

One team has better golfers. Four on that team carry single digit handicaps; only two on the other team are single digit. Seems to me handicaps should apply to be fair and stay consistent with original competition. I’m just having difficulty see how that would manifest in sudden death.

 

Each team picks 1 player. Each player gets his strokes wherever they fall. First player to win a hole wins.

[rogolf]

47 minutes ago, Prut said:

Sudden death playoff Monday evening. Any one have any ideas on how handicaps would/should be applied in a sudden death stableford format team match? The original competition was based on handicaps. For instance, I needed 14 points and my opponent needed 16. I won the match because I had 11 points (-3) and he had 12 (-4) . All they told us was first team to get 3 points on a hole wins.

 

One team has better golfers. Four on that team carry single digit handicaps; only two on the other team are single digit. Seems to me handicaps should apply to be fair and stay consistent with original competition. I’m just having difficulty see how that would manifest in sudden death.

You should ask "them" for more direction on how they want it to work!

[Prut]

6 minutes ago, rogolf said:

You should ask "them" for more direction on how they want it to work!

I intend to but it’s Saturday and they are busy and only have one young kid working. They are short-handed.

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, Prut said:

I intend to but it’s Saturday and they are busy and only have one young kid working. They are short-handed.

 

But probably know the answer and could give it to you in about 30 seconds?

 

Nobody here is running the event.

Edited September 12, 2020 by Hawkeye77

[Sawgrass]

3 hours ago, rogolf said:

Seems to me that the only way to do sudden-death with handicaps is to use the handicap stroke index on the scorecard.

From 5a(6) there are two ways depending on the type of stroke play:

 

• In the regular form of stroke play, if a play-off for a handicap competition is over fewer than 18 holes, the number of holes played should be used to determine the number of strokes to be deducted. For example, if a play-off is over one hole, one-eighteenth of the handicaps should be deducted from the scores for the play-off hole. Handicap stroke fractions should be applied in accordance with the rules or recommendations contained within the Handicap System operating in the local jurisdiction.

• For play-offs for net competitions where the stroke index allocation is used, such as Four-Ball, Par/Bogey or Stableford competitions, handicap strokes should be applied during the play-off holes as they were assigned for the competition, using the stroke index allocation.

•  

 

[Prut]

Thanks all. Looks like we’re going off 1 as a tensome. Handicaps applied. 

[2bGood]

Let us know how it goes

[Hawkeye77]

10 hours ago, 2bGood said:

Let us know how it goes

 

I may not sleep tonight. ? 

 

(And I know @2bGood is genuinely encouraging)!