Plastic bottle caps used as a tee

[sui generis]

34 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Sui, you are completely lost and have no clue what my question is about. So please, do not continue posting the Rules, I know them as well as you do and the answer is not there.

 

Instead, do give me an answer to the question I posed. Just in your own words. You will not be held accountable for it as it is just an opinion. Go ahead, be bold!

 

I'm not interested in recycled plastic, nor do I imagine are the ruling bodies. Elsewhere, someone is hanging their hat on "designed." That one's a non-starter, also.

[Augster]

On 11/1/2020 at 9:25 AM, Mr. Bean said:

 

 

 

EDIT: Btw, what if a producer of energy drinks designs a bottle cap that can also be used as a tee and manufactures the bottle with the cap for that purpose? Just a thought...'

What is happening here? Twilight zone?

 

This is simple. THAT would be legal, again, because the bottle cap was specifically DESIGNED to be a bottle cap and DESIGNED to be a tee. 
 

The ban is not on bottle caps. It’s on EVERYTHING that is not DESIGNED to be a tee. 

 

Silly. Frivolous. Strange. 

[rogolf]

3 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

I'm not interested in recycled plastic, nor do I imagine are the ruling bodies. Elsewhere, someone is hanging their hat on "designed." That one's a non-starter, also.

The ruling bodies will determine what is "designed" to be a tee, and I'm quite sure, as stated previously, that a carved up pencil or a bottle cap with writing on it, will not qualify as "designed" to be a tee according to the Rules.

[sui generis]

2 minutes ago, rogolf said:

The ruling bodies will determine what is "designed" to be a tee, and I'm quite sure, as stated previously, that a carved up pencil or a bottle cap with writing on it, will not qualify as "designed" to be a tee according to the Rules.

 

I'd say we need go no further than the Definition of Tee in which a tee is described as an object. The red herring in 6.2 is "designed." I believe that "designed" merely means "serves the purpose of."

 

And it's only November. 😉

[rogolf]

On 11/2/2020 at 5:49 PM, sui generis said:

 

I'd say we need go no further than the Definition of Tee in which a tee is described as an object. The red herring in 6.2 is "designed." I believe that "designed" merely means "serves the purpose of."

 

And it's only November. 😉

However, it is not our understanding of what "designed" means - we are totally irrelevant in that regard.  It is what the ruling bodies decide the meaning to be.

Edited November 6, 2020 by rogolf

[sui generis]

10 minutes ago, rogolf said:

However, it is not our understanding of what "designed" means - we are totally irrelevant in that regard.  It is what the ruling bodies decide the meaning it to be.

 

I've been waiting for Far Hills to call me for my opinion. 😉

[antip]

32 minutes ago, rogolf said:

However, it is not our understanding of what "designed" means - we are totally irrelevant in that regard.  It is what the ruling bodies decide the meaning it to be.

Agree.

And the curious thing for me is that the equipment rules specifications mean there appears to be no logic to restrict the creature used to one that is specifically designed to be a tee - the standards required remove scope for mischief.

But this seems to be an area where history bites. The USGA seems to have historically had a more restricted view of this issue than across the ditch.

While I suspect the USGA will confirm they view "designed" restrictively, I don't think that is a foregone conclusion; they may be ready to recognise there is little continuing logic in their earlier view.

[cval]

Is there an advantage using a bottle cap as a Tee? I may need to try it. 🙂

[2bGood]

2 hours ago, cval said:

Is there an advantage using a bottle cap as a Tee? I may need to try it. 🙂

On frozen ground it works better than drilling holes. It is a pretty niche idea, but it comes up for some of us that play I the winter in cold areas.

 

I have never heard of it until this thread, but as concept it could see it being better, cheaper and easier than buying the rubber tees they sell for this purpose

Edited November 3, 2020 by 2bGood

[Fade]

As far as I am concerned a bottle cap has been designed to raise the ball off the ground the moment a golfer plans on using one for that purpose.

 

However, I am not convinced that a bottle-cap does not (or could not) "unduly influence the movement of the ball", assuming that the ball is placed into the 'open' side of the cap. It seems to me that the ball might sink into that structure much more than is necessary, which affects the movement of the ball.

 

[Imp]

Almost two months now since the question was submitted. Lost in the void? Maybe pressure them for an update? They usually answer a bit more quickly?

 

Playing rule 6.2(b) says "The player must not make a stroke at a ball on a non-conforming tee or a ball teed in a way not allowed by this Rule." The rule states there are things that can be/are considered "non-conforming". 

And I'm also on the side with those saying the item (tee) has to be designed with the intent of being a "conforming tee" in Part 6(1) in the equipment rules. "A tee is a device designed to raise the ball off the ground". A bottle cap is a device that incidentally can be used as a tee, and not designed as such. so falls out of the rules scope, and intent. I'm on your side on this one.

Surprised no one is going with the "but it's plastic and petroleum is natural" argument to go along with the "or other natural materials". 

 

--kC

[PoolPond]

The bottle cap was original designed to cap the top of the liquid. I took that design and filed down the pointy edges around the cap on the cart path and designed a tee. No one can argue with the fact that I designed a tee. It was not originally designed for a tee but I changed it and designed it.  The "design" does not end at the factory door forever more. Maybe that's all it takes, a tweak of the original design to make it a new design for teeing up a golf ball.  It's zero difference from taking a stick that was designed to hold leaves, whittling it down into some design that can hold a golf ball.  The rules don't say I have to buy my tees from a store or only use commercial manufactured tees. There are many wooded caps in use out there (think bourbon), so the material should not enter into this discussion. 

Edited November 3, 2020 by PoolPond

[Mr. Bean]

21 hours ago, rogolf said:

The ruling bodies will determine what is "designed" to be a tee, and I'm quite sure, as stated previously, that a carved up pencil or a bottle cap with writing on it, will not qualify as "designed" to be a tee according to the Rules.

 

I am not sure of that at all.

 

How about this one: I take a piece of wood and make a small sculpture out of it. After having finished it I change my mind and carve a tee out of it. Is that tee now designed to be a tee as described in the Rules or does it remain a non-tee as it was formerly a sculpture?

 

This is far from being self-evident and clear, and even though it is of trifle importance it is interesting to play with the idea.

[rogolf]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I am not sure of that at all.

 

How about this one: I take a piece of wood and make a small sculpture out of it. After having finished it I change my mind and carve a tee out of it. Is that tee now designed to be a tee as described in the Rules or does it remain a non-tee as it was formerly a sculpture?

 

This is far from being self-evident and clear, and even though it is of trifle importance it is interesting to play with the idea.

Keep playing....

Edited November 3, 2020 by rogolf

[Imp]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I am not sure of that at all.

 

How about this one: I take a piece of wood and make a small sculpture out of it. After having finished it I change my mind and carve a tee out of it. Is that tee now designed to be a tee as described in the Rules or does it remain a non-tee as it was formerly a sculpture?

 

This is far from being self-evident and clear, and even though it is of trifle importance it is interesting to play with the idea.

That wood is a natural material. Covered and legal.

[Mr. Bean]

29 minutes ago, Imp said:

That wood is a natural material. Covered and legal.

 

Okay, let me change it into plastic.

[Imp]

Again, waiting on word from USGA on that answer, unless, as I mentioned earlier, does one try to say that plastic is petroleum and natural there? 

 

But taking a cap, filing down to make a tee off the sidewalk, it was modified to be used, but wasn't designed that way. You effectively changed the purpose of the item, but you didn't design the cap, but simply changed the structure. 🙂 

 

Many years in having to decypher auto racing rule books and also various regulations, the definition of design is pretty clear here. Had to be made that way in the 1st place. 

 

 

--kC

Edited November 4, 2020 by Imp

[LeoLeo99]

On 11/3/2020 at 8:52 PM, Imp said:

Again, waiting on word from USGA on that answer, unless, as I mentioned earlier, does one try to say that plastic is petroleum and natural there? 

 

But taking a cap, filing down to make a tee off the sidewalk, it was modified to be used, but wasn't designed that way. You effectively changed the purpose of the item, but you didn't design the cap, but simply changed the structure. 🙂 

 

Many years in having to decypher auto racing rule books and also various regulations, the definition of design is pretty clear here. Had to be made that way in the 1st place. 

 

 

--kC

Before tees were manufactured, they used sand or dirt and I assume whatever they had on hand to build a tee.  So, you could manufacture your own tees back then.  I don't follow this whole natural or unnatural line of logic.  

[Imp]

3 minutes ago, LeoLeo99 said:

Before tees were manufactured, they used sand or dirt and I assume whatever they had on hand to build a tee.  So, you could manufacture your own tees back then.  I don't follow this whole natural or unnatural line of logic.  

Are dirt or trees not natural objects? 😉

[LeoLeo99]

7 minutes ago, Imp said:

Are dirt or trees not natural objects? 😉

I don't see that the rules make a distinction that you can only manufacture a tee out of something natural.  

[2bGood]

On 10/28/2020 at 2:25 PM, Sawgrass said:

The actual wording does not “expressly allow” you to create alignment help in the teeing area.  The word “alignment” does not appear.
 

Further, 10.2 lists the actions you may take to help your alignment, and thereby implies that other actions (making marks) may not be taken.

 

I agree that things could be made more clear, but if you don’t accept this behavior being prohibited, why not ask the USGA to

confirm that which Antip already reported?

I got my answer from my ruling body.....

 

They suggested in their opinion it was a breach of the rules but noted this was not a ruling or official decision. They suggested rules, 6.2b(3), 8.1b(8), 10.2b(1), 10.2b(3) and 20.3b all need to be considered. 

 

I assume that if I submitted it for an official decision I would get the same answer. 

 

[2bGood]

On 11/3/2020 at 5:07 PM, Imp said:

That wood is a natural material. Covered and legal.

I lost the plot on this one. So anything made from a natural material  is legal as a tee? That kind of takes things in another direction for me if that is true

[Imp]

Rule 6.2.b(2):
 

(2) Ball May Be Teed or Played from Ground. The ball must be played from either:
A tee placed in or on the ground, or

The ground itself.

 

For purposes of this Rule, the “ground” includes sand or other natural materials put in place to set the tee or ball on.

The player must not make a stroke at a ball on a non-conforming tee or a ball teed in a way not allowed by this Rule.

 

Wood is a natural material. Wanna use a stick? A flat rock? Leaves? A berry? A pine cone? 

 

--kC

Edited November 6, 2020 by Imp

[2bGood]

14 hours ago, Imp said:

Rule 6.2.b(2):
 

(2) Ball May Be Teed or Played from Ground. The ball must be played from either:
A tee placed in or on the ground, or

The ground itself.

 

For purposes of this Rule, the “ground” includes sand or other natural materials put in place to set the tee or ball on.

The player must not make a stroke at a ball on a non-conforming tee or a ball teed in a way not allowed by this Rule.

 

Wood is a natural material. Wanna use a stick? A flat rock? Leaves? A berry? A pine cone? 

 

--kC

Thanks, do we want go down the rabbit hole of what is 'natural material'? Depending how you define that you could come up with some interesting options.

 

Natural: existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.

Material: the matter from which a thing is or can be made.

 

For instance could you use wood chips as a tee? 

Edited November 6, 2020 by 2bGood

[Imp]

I don't see why not. Pick up some mulch from the garden (don't let the grounds keeper or ladies auxiliary see you soiling their gardens!), put a ball on it. Hit it. Should be legal by the letter of the rules. 

 

Taking wood and crafting/turning your own tees from them to the design of an approved tee in your shop? As long as they are typical to tees already approved, should be fine also. 

 

A bottle cap? Or modifying a bottle cap? Can't think of a tee that has that low form.

 

Here's one for ya to ponder... How about a cork from a wine bottle? 

[Nels55]

3 hours ago, Imp said:

I don't see why not. Pick up some mulch from the garden (don't let the grounds keeper or ladies auxiliary see you soiling their gardens!), put a ball on it. Hit it. Should be legal by the letter of the rules. 

 

Taking wood and crafting/turning your own tees from them to the design of an approved tee in your shop? As long as they are typical to tees already approved, should be fine also. 

 

A bottle cap? Or modifying a bottle cap? Can't think of a tee that has that low form.

 

Here's one for ya to ponder... How about a cork from a wine bottle? 

I have some of these flat tees:

https://www.amazon.com/Flat-Tee-Profile-Irons-Hybrids-White/dp/B07XZMQHZH/ref=asc_df_B07XZMQHZH/?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=&hvpos=&hvnetw=o&hvrand=&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4584276305130628&psc=1

 

Very similar to bottle caps and I assume that they are legal since they are designed and manufactured specifically as golf tees.

[2bGood]

4 hours ago, Imp said:

I don't see why not. Pick up some mulch from the garden (don't let the grounds keeper or ladies auxiliary see you soiling their gardens!), put a ball on it. Hit it. Should be legal by the letter of the rules. 

 

Taking wood and crafting/turning your own tees from them to the design of an approved tee in your shop? As long as they are typical to tees already approved, should be fine also. 

 

A bottle cap? Or modifying a bottle cap? Can't think of a tee that has that low form.

 

Here's one for ya to ponder... How about a cork from a wine bottle? 

 

But mulch, is not a natural material - it is product made from natural material by human hands (machines) designed for another purpose other than being a tee. 

 

 

[phil75070]

As far as using other "natural" objects (pine cones, berries, a cork are a few mentioned), the point that objects must be "put in place to set the tee or ball on" is being overlooked. If they are just lying around in the teeing area and they have not been specifically put there for the purpose of being used as a tee they could not be used. Just my interpretation.

[nsxguy]

42 minutes ago, phil75070 said:

As far as using other "natural" objects (pine cones, berries, a cork are a few mentioned), the point that objects must be "put in place to set the tee or ball on" is being overlooked. If they are just lying around in the teeing area and they have not been specifically put there for the purpose of being used as a tee they could not be used. Just my interpretation.

 

Objects must be put in place is what you need to do (future).

 

It does not mean those objects needed to be put there to be used.

 

At least that's the way I read that,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Mr. Bean]

16 hours ago, Imp said:

Rule 6.2.b(2):
 

(2) Ball May Be Teed or Played from Ground. The ball must be played from either:
A tee placed in or on the ground, or

The ground itself.

 

For purposes of this Rule, the “ground” includes sand or other natural materials put in place to set the tee or ball on.

The player must not make a stroke at a ball on a non-conforming tee or a ball teed in a way not allowed by this Rule.

 

Wood is a natural material. Wanna use a stick? A flat rock? Leaves? A berry? A pine cone? 

 

--kC

 

At this point I would like to get back to the pencil.

 

In my youth they were all made out of wood and we have those still in use. So, that pencil is made of wood and wood is a natural material. When I read that bolded text there is absolutely nothing preventing me from using a pencil made of wood as a tee. And even more, if I carve an actual tee out of the wooden pencil I have not only designed the tee but also made it myself and of natural material.

 

So, if I carve myself a tee from a wooden pencil, is that tee a conforming one?

Edited November 6, 2020 by Mr. Bean
Correction of a misspelled word