Matthew Fitzpatrick whines about BDC...

[gvogel]

12 hours ago, clevited said:

Still hardest by far for me. 

Well of course it is.  You play a 6* driver, probably with a longer shaft, and you swing at 110% all of the time.

 

If you played 9.5* with a standard length shaft and played "within yourself", you'd find out how easy hitting driver has become.  But that's either not fun for you, or it's not enough of a challenge.

[oikos1]

12 hours ago, bladehunter said:

I think that’s open to interpretation.  He didn’t directly say that he was working hard.  He said he was “ making a mockery of the game “.  I interpret that as using his Maximizing of his equipment choices to “ beat “ the game.     He’s not really doing much physically more than many other players.   He didn’t say Wolfe was making a mockery or Rory. Or champ.  He singled out Bryson and his off color equipment  choices.    This is my interpretation.  I could be flat wrong.   But 48 inch driver - single length - armlock - graphite ....all equipment centered.  

 

but hey.  As I type that I like the guy more and more.  I usually love an underdog.  Or oddball.  We kin folk have to stick together.  
 

If we're not going to use Fitzpatrick's actual words, and instead use "Well, here's what I really think he said...", then what's the point of having a discussion about what Fitzpatrick said? 

 

 

 

[pinhigh27]

On 10/15/2020 at 8:47 PM, cardoustie said:

Optimized my Cally 9 iron with my fitter tonight

 

113 speed, 156 carry, 23 launch, 36 height, 50* descent

 

that was a nutted 7i in my college days, 52 now, the aminals have left the barn

Its probably not too far off from where your 7 iron was 30 years ago loft wise. Why does the number on the bottom mean anything

Edited October 17, 2020 by pinhigh27

[pinhigh27]

14 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Carry is the issue.  Carry.  Roll can be regulated easy enough.  These guys are flying 3 woods 315 plus 

 

Show me videos. Maybe someone like champ on an absolutely perfect one, once a tournament. Absolutely not under standard conditions. Way more tour pros flying 3 wood closer to 250-260 than 315. 

 

Carry is not the issue at all. It's crazy amounts of roll they get from the firm and fast conditions you need to challenge tour pros. 

[clevited]

1 hour ago, gvogel said:

Well of course it is.  You play a 6* driver, probably with a longer shaft, and you swing at 110% all of the time.

 

If you played 9.5* with a standard length shaft and played "within yourself", you'd find out how easy hitting driver has become.  But that's either not fun for you, or it's not enough of a challenge.

 

Not even close, but thanks for playing.

[clevited]

5 hours ago, mahonie said:

I’ve always said that you have got to give BCD a lot of credit for what he has done and is doing. I’ve also said the USGA/R&A messed this up back in the day and it’s going to be difficult to rein it back in. My issue in this debate is that the out-of-scale proportions of the 460cc driver allied with the non-linear spin profile of the Pro V1 and its ilk, have effectively neutralised what I would call the ‘mid-game.’  Yes, bomb and gouge is within the rules of the game and fair play to BCD for exploiting that. However, there is a very limited requirement or opportunity to play shots within the 150-220 yard range anymore for anybody. This is the area of the game that has largely disappeared and why I say the game now is half the game that it was. 

 

If anybody is struggling to hit the modern ball and driver half decently, then I can only suggest a few lessons to iron out that major swing flaw...it really is the easiest club in the bag to hit...my 28 handicap mate is Exhibit A.

 

Again, slower you swing, the easier something is to hit.  If you are naturally able to swing in the 120s, that club gets tougher to keep straight.  If you need to nuke one here and there, even tougher.  It is the lowest lofted and longest club out there.  Just because you can't miss the face, doesn't mean its not harder to hit well then practically every other club in the bag.  I hit Wedge through 4 iron way more easily and with more confidence than my driver.  Fairway woods are by far easier.  So are hybrids.  If you are bunting a driver 200 yards, every club is an easy club.   You can have a baby draw with that swing, but at 120, that becomes a snap hook.

 

Unless you are in the know of how it feels to swing as fast as a tour pro and keep it reliably in play every time, then you can't possibly comment on how easy driver is to hit at those speeds.  I don't know a single person other than you few that think the driver is the easiest club in the bag.  They would probably all say a different club to be honest.

 

Easiest club by far for me to hit is my LW.  It is the shortest and highest lofted club in the bag.

 

Edit: i forgot to address your mid range distance complaint. It is an easy fix for yourself.  Go hit old clubs and a limited flight ball, there, brings back what you miss in your game while not affecting anyone else.

Edited October 17, 2020 by clevited

[pinhigh27]

1 minute ago, clevited said:

 

Again, slower you swing, the easier something is to hit.  If you are naturally able to swing in the 120s, that club gets tougher to keep straight.  If you need to nuke one here and there, even tougher.  It is the lowest lofted and longest club out there.  Just because you can't miss the face, doesn't mean its not harder to hit well then practically every other club in the bag.  I hit Wedge through 4 iron way more easily and with more confidence than my driver.  Fairway woods are by far easier.  So are hybrids.  If you are bunting a driver 200 yards, every club is an easy club.   You can have a baby draw with that swing, but at 120, that becomes a snap hook.

 

Unless you are in the know of how it feels to swing as fast as a tour pro and keep it reliably in play every time, then you can't possibly comment on how easy driver is to hit at those speeds.  I don't know a single person other than you few that think the driver is the easiest club in the bag.  They would probably all say a different club to be honest.

 

Easiest club by far for me to hit is my LW.  It is the shortest and highest lofted club in the bag.

 

The fact that you swing severely up in an attempt to maximize distance is going to make it really hard to line up face and path. Driver shouldn't be that hard. Yes clubs that go further will be more offline at same degree of miss but you make it sound like you're scared to hit driver and it's probably because of how extreme you are swinging up to try to hit it further. 

[clevited]

1 minute ago, pinhigh27 said:

The fact that you swing severely up in an attempt to maximize distance is going to make it really hard to line up face and path. Driver shouldn't be that hard. Yes clubs that go further will be more offline at same degree of miss but you make it sound like you're scared to hit driver and it's probably because of how extreme you are swinging up to try to hit it further. 

 

No, it just isn't the easiest club in the bag for me to hit, on target.  For who, is it?  You have a tight fairway, water both sides, are you not at all thinking about using a 3 wood or less to be sure you don't over cook one into the water left or right?  I don't know why it is so hard to understand. Statistically speaking, amongst all players, the driver is still the hardest club to hit for a multitude of reasons. Is it easier than it used to be?  Well sure.  But it isn't what you guys are trying to make it out to be at all.  

[pinhigh27]

Dispersion relative to 3w is constant on a % basis, its just you hit 3 wood shorter so a 5 % miss at 260 is less than a 5% miss at 300. The percentage off is still the same for most players.

 

Again, because you're playing such a low loft and swinging abnormally up you might not have this same relationship. 

[clevited]

2 minutes ago, pinhigh27 said:

Dispersion relative to 3w is constant on a % basis, its just you hit 3 wood shorter so a 5 % miss at 260 is less than a 5% miss at 300. The percentage off is still the same for most players.

 

Again, because you're playing such a low loft and swinging abnormally up you might not have this same relationship. 

 

Is that true now.  Where is your statistical proof for golfers of all skill levels?  Seriously, if you have that, i want to see.

 

Edit: FYI, i have/had many drivers I play around with.  I have a 4.5 degree long driver, i had a 5.5* 46 inch driver, 7.5* 45.5, and now i almost exclusively play 7.5* or 6.5* 44 inch driver.  I do enjoy hitting up on the ball but if i am playing for score, i lower my aoa to sub 5 degrees roughly for most drives or i hit 5w.  I can pretty much hit a 5 wood hard as I want and keep it in play, can't say the same for driver at all.  Therfore it is the hardest club in the bag.  If i want to replace it with a glorified 3 wood to better control it i can, but that is what my 5 wood is for.  Driver is for when i need to get it out there as far as possible, 5w is for when i need to keep it in play on a narrow fairway or if i don't need an extra 50 yards.  

 

I can't believe you guys are trying to sell to me the idea the driver is the easiest club in the bag.  Funny stuff.

Edited October 17, 2020 by clevited

[pinhigh27]

Feel free to buy decade and look into what Scott Fawcett has figured out for good players.

 

If you want to talk about bogey golfers or worse then that is a separate discussion and a bogey golfer playing a 6 degree loft driver and swinging 5-10 up is just laughable. 

 

[clevited]

6 minutes ago, pinhigh27 said:

Feel free to buy decade and look into what Scott Fawcett has figured out for good players.

 

If you want to talk about bogey golfers or worse then that is a separate discussion and a bogey golfer playing a 6 degree loft driver and swinging 5-10 up is just laughable. 

 

 

I would disagree with that 100%.  That is golf snobbery at its finest.  If a bogey golfer enjoys trying to learn to do that, good for them.  It is a skill that can be very useful and is a lot of fun.  Not to mention almost necessary if you like to do scrambles too.  If a bogey golfer wants to improve, they need frequent lessons and need to learn all aspects of the game and have equipment that allows them to play their best.

 

I have plenty of friends that shoot in low 80s ans 70s at most courses.  They are good golfers by most people's standards.  I can tell you 100% they say driver is hardest club in the bag.  None of them try and hit up on the ball ir swing a low loft. At best, they are 250 yards off the tee.

 

If you are REALLY good, ever club in your bag is stupid easy to hit, but I will garantee you, statistically, your driver will be the club that most often gets you into trouble.

[pinhigh27]

Well of course because you're hitting it more often per round than any other club besides putter and you're hitting it off the tee. You aren't going to putt out of bounds. 

 

It's not golf snobbery. You're on this like 99.99999th percentile niche of trying to hit it really far with using an extremely specialized swing and club which quite frankly aren't suitable for normal golf and you act like the problems you encounter trying to do so are generalizable to the rest of golfers, when they aren't. 

 

A bogey golfer can hit it further by improving their swing, not playing super specialized equipment with abnormal swing dynamics. This also won't translate to the rest of their swing so it will make it hard. If you swing driver 8 up with the ball a foot ahead of your lead foot, it's gonna be hard to transition to a wedge. Hence why long drivers are long drivers and pga tour players are pga tour players. Why aren't there tour players swinging 8 up for more distance? Because you don't need to do that to have really good LM numbers. 

 

A 6 degree driver and hitting way up is necessary for scrambles? I hardly think so. 

 

[mahonie]

14 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

I would disagree with that 100%.  That is golf snobbery at its finest.  If a bogey golfer enjoys trying to learn to do that, good for them.  It is a skill that can be very useful and is a lot of fun.  Not to mention almost necessary if you like to do scrambles too.  If a bogey golfer wants to improve, they need frequent lessons and need to learn all aspects of the game and have equipment that allows them to play their best.

 

I have plenty of friends that shoot in low 80s ans 70s at most courses.  They are good golfers by most people's standards.  I can tell you 100% they say driver is hardest club in the bag.  None of them try and hit up on the ball ir swing a low loft. At best, they are 250 yards off the tee.

 

If you are REALLY good, ever club in your bag is stupid easy to hit, but I will garantee you, statistically, your driver will be the club that most often gets you into trouble.

I mentioned my 28 handicap mate...driver is straight(ish) and 220 yards, easily the most consistent club in his bag. Rest of his game is in a mire at the minute...he’s been as low as 18.

 

None of the guys I play with have an issue with the driver. Some may be more inconsistent than others but they know when they slice it out of bounds it was a bad swing.

 

This blog might help show you how easy drivers are to hit: 

 

August 2020    Stats       by Jennifer Saxton00 CommentsShare on TwitterShare on Facebook

Percentage of Fairways Hit: Driver versus 3 Wood 

Driver versus 3 wood – What club hits more fairways? What club should you use more often off the tee? Why?

Shot Scope allows us to see overall if golfers are more accurate with a Driver or 3 wood off the tee. This image show us that as handicap increases, accuracy decreases. However overall, the accuracy with a Driver versus a 3 wood is much the same, both with an average of 47%. This may come as a surprise to most golfers. 

Fairway Hit %

So what are the benefits to hitting a Driver off the tee? To really understand this a number of factors should be considered; tee shot distance, fairway hit % and average proximity to the hole with the approach shot.

Performance Average Distance off the tee

The average tee shot distance with a Driver versus 3 wood, is 28 yards longer on average. Pair this with the same level of accuracy – the club of choice, should always be a Driver. Still not convinced that Driver should be the go to club, here is a look at some Greens in Regulation stat by club, as well as proximity to the hole.

A 28 yard difference between Driver versus 3 wood off the tee, would mean around a 2 club difference for the second shot. Looking at GIR, this means golfers are 12-15% more likely to hit the green, if they hit a Driver off the tee, instead of a 3 wood. Naturally, with more greens being hit, the average proximity to the hole decreases too.

Pulling these statistics together, it is clear to see that the closer a golfer is to the green, the closer they hit their next shot. To settle the Driver versus 3 wood debate: the consequences of the distance sacrifice are simply not worth it. The statistics show that there is no real benefit to hitting a 3 wood instead of a Driver off the tee. 

Conclusion

Hit Driver wherever it is reasonable to do so, and you will reap the rewards without changing or having to improve your game drastically.

[clevited]

21 minutes ago, pinhigh27 said:

Well of course because you're hitting it more often per round than any other club besides putter and you're hitting it off the tee. You aren't going to putt out of bounds. 

 

It's not golf snobbery. You're on this like 99.99999th percentile niche of trying to hit it really far with using an extremely specialized swing and club which quite frankly aren't suitable for normal golf and you act like the problems you encounter trying to do so are generalizable to the rest of golfers, when they aren't. 

 

A bogey golfer can hit it further by improving their swing, not playing super specialized equipment with abnormal swing dynamics. This also won't translate to the rest of their swing so it will make it hard. If you swing driver 8 up with the ball a foot ahead of your lead foot, it's gonna be hard to transition to a wedge. Hence why long drivers are long drivers and pga tour players are pga tour players. Why aren't there tour players swinging 8 up for more distance? Because you don't need to do that to have really good LM numbers. 

 

A 6 degree driver and hitting way up is necessary for scrambles? I hardly think so. 

 

 

A bogey golfer can practice whatever form of golf they want and shouldn't be mocked for doing so.  If they can get good at hitting up on it, let them try.  If they are like me, they practice it but also practice a more typical aoa for better control.

 

A 6 degree driver isn't necessarily necessary for a scramble, and of course it is a scramble, nothing is really necessary is it, but if you want to hit it as long as possible  hitting up on it can do just that. This depends on swing speed and loft of course.

 

You are really doubling down on this driver is easiest club in the bag nonsense aren't you.  I am 100 percent confident that would never be the consensus among the golfing population.  Not even close.

Edited October 17, 2020 by clevited

[clevited]

8 minutes ago, mahonie said:

I mentioned my 28 handicap mate...driver is straight(ish) and 220 yards, easily the most consistent club in his bag. Rest of his game is in a mire at the minute...he’s been as low as 18.

 

None of the guys I play with have an issue with the driver. Some may be more inconsistent than others but they know when they slice it out of bounds it was a bad swing.

 

This blog might help show you how easy drivers are to hit: 

 

August 2020    Stats       by Jennifer Saxton00 CommentsShare on TwitterShare on Facebook

Percentage of Fairways Hit: Driver versus 3 Wood 

Driver versus 3 wood – What club hits more fairways? What club should you use more often off the tee? Why?

Shot Scope allows us to see overall if golfers are more accurate with a Driver or 3 wood off the tee. This image show us that as handicap increases, accuracy decreases. However overall, the accuracy with a Driver versus a 3 wood is much the same, both with an average of 47%. This may come as a surprise to most golfers. 

Fairway Hit %

So what are the benefits to hitting a Driver off the tee? To really understand this a number of factors should be considered; tee shot distance, fairway hit % and average proximity to the hole with the approach shot.

Performance Average Distance off the tee

The average tee shot distance with a Driver versus 3 wood, is 28 yards longer on average. Pair this with the same level of accuracy – the club of choice, should always be a Driver. Still not convinced that Driver should be the go to club, here is a look at some Greens in Regulation stat by club, as well as proximity to the hole.

A 28 yard difference between Driver versus 3 wood off the tee, would mean around a 2 club difference for the second shot. Looking at GIR, this means golfers are 12-15% more likely to hit the green, if they hit a Driver off the tee, instead of a 3 wood. Naturally, with more greens being hit, the average proximity to the hole decreases too.

Pulling these statistics together, it is clear to see that the closer a golfer is to the green, the closer they hit their next shot. To settle the Driver versus 3 wood debate: the consequences of the distance sacrifice are simply not worth it. The statistics show that there is no real benefit to hitting a 3 wood instead of a Driver off the tee. 

Conclusion

Hit Driver wherever it is reasonable to do so, and you will reap the rewards without changing or having to improve your game drastically.

 

Good read, thanks for posting that.  This still doesn't make the case for what you guys are claiming, that the driver is easiest club in the bag.  You are blowing things out of proportion.  Maybe in your mind, because the face is so big, you tee it up every time and have decent success with it is is but are you really going to sit here and tell me you would pull driver out for a tight fairway with water on either side, or OB.  Or that your driver is an easier club than a wedge is or any hybrid or mid iron?  I can understand someone claiming its easier to hit than say a 3i off the turf, but seriously.

 

I just asked a very good golfer friend of mine, asked him easiest club in his bag, he said PW.

[Nard_S]

This is exactly where tech screws up average guy. Developing a positive AoA swing for modern big dog while maintaining a negative AoA for rest of bag, all while paying a mortgage and raising a litter is huge reason why advanced players get more out of all this stuff and average guy still stinks.

 

I've come across a dozen "120 swingers" who hit their GI #8i like a fat sally because they apply the same swing to both. Seen maybe 3 guys in 120 range who translate it down to PW. They were all clearly scratch or even plus players. I'm maybe 110 at best, I've got better things to do and work on then trying to hit like Bryson.

 

 

[pinhigh27]

32 minutes ago, clevited said:

You are really doubling down on this driver is easiest club in the bag nonsense aren't you. 

No I'm not. When did I say that? I'm just not scared of it because I hit it normally. I can hit bad drivers just like I can hit a bad 4 iron. Obviously a bad driver can go more off-line than a bad 4 iron, for the reasons we previously discussed. 

[clevited]

7 minutes ago, pinhigh27 said:

No I'm not. When did I say that? I'm just not scared of it because I hit it normally. I can hit bad drivers just like I can hit a bad 4 iron. Obviously a bad driver can go more off-line than a bad 4 iron, for the reasons we previously discussed. 

 

My apologies, i was lumping you in with mahonie's claim the driver is the easiest to hit in the bag. I am not scared of driver, I just know from experience how hard it is to keep as straight as Bryson does or any of the long hitting pros regardless of aoa or loft.  I am even more impressed by the guys hitting it that hard and optimizing spin and launch for total distance.  I am most impressed that Bryson can do it with such a low loft.

[clevited]

@pinhigh27You and a couple others are assuming stuff about me that isn't true.  YES i know how HARD it is to do what Bryson is doing.  I KNOW how hard it is to keep 180 bs in play regardless of whether it be with a 4.5 degree 48 inch long club or a 7.5* 44 inch driver or even a 9.5* which just (baloons and falls out of the sky for me).  I am super impressed with the swing consistency these guys have, swinging at these speeds and hitting it as straight as they do.  I don't think anyone, especially rollbackera can appreciate the level of skill it takes to do that with the hardest club in the bag.

Edited October 17, 2020 by clevited

[mahonie]

50 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Good read, thanks for posting that.  This still doesn't make the case for what you guys are claiming, that the driver is easiest club in the bag.  You are blowing things out of proportion.  Maybe in your mind, because the face is so big, you tee it up every time and have decent success with it is is but are you really going to sit here and tell me you would pull driver out for a tight fairway with water on either side, or OB.  Or that your driver is an easier club than a wedge is or any hybrid or mid iron?  I can understand someone claiming its easier to hit than say a 3i off the turf, but seriously.

 

I just asked a very good golfer friend of mine, asked him easiest club in his bag, he said PW.

Let me clarify a little bit. Relative to shot difficulty and distance, the driver is the easiest club in the bag to hit...hope that helps 👍

[clevited]

Just now, mahonie said:

Let me clarify a little bit. Relative to shot difficulty and distance, the driver is the easiest club in the bag to hit...hope that helps 👍

 

Lol, that isn't then the easiest club in the bag.  Its just a subjective viewpoint you have about what easy means  That is fine, view it/define it that way but you will be hard pressed to be able to make "driver is easiest club in the bag" a statement any majority of players will adopt.

[mahonie]

1 minute ago, clevited said:

 

Lol, that isn't then the easiest club in the bag.  Its just a subjective viewpoint you have about what easy means  That is fine, view it/define it that way but you will be hard pressed to be able to make "driver is easiest club in the bag" a statement any majority of players will adopt.

I’m not the only one who thinks hitting a 250 yard tee shot with driver is easier than hitting a 200 yard 4-iron tee shot.

 

You carry on having issues hitting your driver and I’ll carry on playing my easy to hit driver...all good 👍

[clevited]

12 minutes ago, mahonie said:

I’m not the only one who thinks hitting a 250 yard tee shot with driver is easier than hitting a 200 yard 4-iron tee shot.

 

You carry on having issues hitting your driver and I’ll carry on playing my easy to hit driver...all good 👍

 

You don't get it.  You made a big claim that driver is the EASIEST club in the bag.  It is not the easiest by far. I just asked several golfer acquaintances, not a single one said driver was easiest club in the bag.  I am not trying to be hostile or anything, i am just pointing out that your original claim isn't true to most anyone.  

 

Btw, i am perfectly happy hitting 270 carry 5 woods, or 250 carry 4i off the tee when 330 just isn't worth the water or OB risk.

[mahonie]

11 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

You don't get it.  You made a big claim that driver is the EASIEST club in the bag.  It is not the easiest by far. I just asked several golfer acquaintances, not a single one said driver was easiest club in the bag.  I am not trying to be hostile or anything, i am just pointing out that your original claim isn't true to most anyone.  

 

Btw, i am perfectly happy hitting 270 carry 5 woods, or 250 carry 4i off the tee when 330 just isn't worth the water or OB risk.

🙄

[jmck]

All I know is if I mishit driver by a full inch it doesn't have any impact on my score whatsoever.  It’s the only club in my bag I can say that about.

Edited October 17, 2020 by jmck

[bscinstnct]

Hey Tiger, ever heard of golfwrx?

 

 

No

 

 

Its this golf message board

 

 

Oh yeah,they ever talk about me on it?

 

 

[bladehunter]

5 hours ago, pinhigh27 said:

 

Show me videos. Maybe someone like champ on an absolutely perfect one, once a tournament. Absolutely not under standard conditions. Way more tour pros flying 3 wood closer to 250-260 than 315. 

 

Carry is not the issue at all. It's crazy amounts of roll they get from the firm and fast conditions you need to challenge tour pros. 

Matthew Wolfe .... saw him do it several times off the tee in last month.  

[bladehunter]

5 hours ago, oikos1 said:

If we're not going to use Fitzpatrick's actual words, and instead use "Well, here's what I really think he said...", then what's the point of having a discussion about what Fitzpatrick said? 

 

 

 

He didn’t say that Bryson was making a mockery of the game ?  
 

well.  Nothing to talk about here then. 

[Titleist99]

23 hours ago, clevited said:

 

Tell me what the precident is, and what the factual concerns are.  The course lengthening thing has never been a real argument btw.  Lots of info out there disproving the need for longer courses.  Pace of play is also not factual.  The entire reasoning for this push for a rollback is because courses aren't being played as architects intended them and golf isn't being played how a realitively small group of people, who do not represent golf as a whole in reality FEEL.  

 

If they can put down some hard, undeniable facts that are worrysome for the lasting legacy of the game that has anything to do with distance, I am all ears.  Last I checked, people don't play the game because kids ain't got time for that crap, not because anyone hits it too far or skill in the game has diminished at all.

Golf clap for you! Obviously there's a thirst for distance out there by the masses based on the sales of overpriced drivers and distance balls and now that small few you speak of want to shake up golf.....All this talk about distance rollback when the average Joe hits it 210 off the tee is offensive to most....IMO