Matthew Fitzpatrick whines about BDC...

[Dr. Block]

40 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

If you think of golf clubs like cars its easier to see.  Old cars are beautiful and they were amazing for the time.  But if you had to take a trip across the country, through the mountains and desert, would you take a muscle car from the 50s-60s, or would you take a modern vehicle?  The comparison is easy.  Old clubs were fine for their day, but Boom Boom probably has gained a lot today with his modern "vehicle" vs his beautiful "muscle car" of yester year.  It is no doubt more comfortable, a smoother experience and the extra horsepower isn't such a bad thing either.

 

 

I have no issue seeing any of it.  You don't seem to understand how you are shifting the line of logic and then explaining with examples that do not apply to my point.

 

I certainly over-reacted, and we've created enough nonsense on this tangent.  Let's let it die. 

Edited October 16, 2020 by Dr. Block

[Dr. Block]

37 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

It was played for 40 years because there was nothing else available that performed better or out of nostalgia.  As soon as a better performing product was available, most golfers switched.

Yep.  But the head used for 40 years did not suck. That's my point.  Justin Leonard, Davis Love, and Bob Estes felt they sucked so little that they didn't switch until Titanium came along.

 

I'm just saying show some respect.  Golf clubs have been made for over 100 years, only the last twenty or so have shown these wild advances in technology.  Its amazing, absolutely it is, and I can understand where you're coming from, but it doesn't mean achievements of the past should be disparaged by comparison.   

 

Now if you'll excuse me, I've shat enough on this thread. I'm going to go somehow still hit Blocks with my TaylorMade sim max draw driver while there's still daylight.  I hope you and Clevited have a good evening.    DB out. 

Edited October 16, 2020 by Dr. Block

[bladehunter]

3 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

No anchoring, no removable alignment aides, no club adjusting during rounds because that's cheating. No unlimited driver length because they do not want a 75" driver and players using it to take two club lengths from the penalty area...

Duh.  I’m saying these are clear examples of equipment rollbacks within the rules.  

[bladehunter]

3 hours ago, clevited said:

What does 290 downhill, downwind on 10 stimp fairways become?  Still a "problem".  No rollback would ever be enough and would just piss people off.  Only this time, way more people than groove rule and anchor ban I am sure of it.

Carry is the issue.  Carry.  Roll can be regulated easy enough.  These guys are flying 3 woods 315 plus 

[miamistomp]

 Use pool caddies and no greens books

   Short game will have extra importance- just my 2 cents

[bladehunter]

3 hours ago, physasst said:

Well of course, but he didn't get a chance to maximize swinging it constantly.  Is there difference in equipment? of course there is.. but so what?

 

 I think what some of the pro rollback golfer's do not realize is that some of us want to see them hit 400 yd. drives.  I would love to watch a PGA tour pro demolish a course with 425 yd drives.

 

 While wearing a hoodie and black socks.  What I do not understand and what no one has convinced me of, is why a rollback is needed? Who cares if Bryson drives every par 4 green from now on. It's a problem that affects 0.00001% of golfers. Whether they are hitting 290 or 490 has NO impact on my game or my enjoyment of it. 

 

To be honest, you'd probably get more young people into golf if you had someone jacking drives into every par 4. I'd tune into watch. 

 

That wouldn’t be getting young people into golf.  That would be changing golf to suit young  people. Huge difference.  When you changed the product to suit the target demographic, the product as it was ceases to be. 
 

side note. Hoodies.  I have a 12 year old who also wants t wear one everyday.  I ask him today “ who are you hiding from “.  No answer.  Anybody know ? 

Edited October 16, 2020 by bladehunter
Spelling

[clevited]

2 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Carry is the issue.  Carry.  Roll can be regulated easy enough.  These guys are flying 3 woods 315 plus 

What does 290 carry with a 20 mph tail wind?  A butt-ton (technical term).  It also lands shallower and runs more, so unless the fairways are cushoned with memory foam, and topped with shag carpet, the ball is going to GO.  That 290 is 340+ all day in those conditions and that isn't even the best DJ could do.  Give him some time to practice with it and maybe tweak it some to better suit him.

 

Remember, I am a big long drive enthusiast and analyze the crap out of things like this.  I could probably guess your launch numbers just by watching your ball flight off the tee.

[bladehunter]

14 minutes ago, clevited said:

What does 290 carry with a 20 mph tail wind?  A butt-ton (technical term).  It also lands shallower and runs more, so unless the fairways are cushoned with memory foam, and topped with shag carpet, the ball is going to GO.  That 290 is 340+ all day in those conditions and that isn't even the best DJ could do.  Give him some time to practice with it and maybe tweak it some to better suit him.

 

Remember, I am a big long drive enthusiast and analyze the crap out of things like this.  I could probably guess your launch numbers just by watching your ball flight off the tee.

Let’s say for sake of argument you’re correct.  
 

 

then why the pushback ? It makes no difference ... right ? 

[mahonie]

59 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Untrue.  I have just as much if not more fun playing the game today as I ever have.  My skills keep improving, and I find new goals to go after all the time.  Each course plays different and I practice with all of my clubs, for when or if I will need them.  I also enjoy tinkering and trying to find clubs that fit my swing.  I build my own clubs and have a loft lie machine for tweaks.  I love lots of things about golf.  In fact, I am certain I love it more than ever really.  Also love watching it on tv more than I ever did with the exception of Tiger and Daly.  Loved watching them bomb the ball most of all.  Love watching these newer guys throw caution to the wind and give it. 

 

Edit:  Forgot to say that yes, I enjoy pulling off shots just as much if not more than I ever did with my old clubs that didn't suit me.

 

 

Is your enjoyment of the modern game purely down to the fact that you can hit the ball longer and straighter and is that down to an improvement in skill or is it because the modern game is easier?

[clevited]

16 minutes ago, mahonie said:

Is your enjoyment of the modern game purely down to the fact that you can hit the ball longer and straighter and is that down to an improvement in skill or is it because the modern game is easier?

 

I enjoy golf as it is today because it is still a life long game that i can play well into my old age and still pick up skills along the way.  One can never get too good at golf.  It is no easy sport.  Never has been, never will be.

 

Also, when I was first playing, you could have given me a modern club and ball and I would be hitting it nowhere near as far as I can now.  I recall hitting it much straighter when I was young too.  With a large increase in speed, comes an exponential increase in skill to control it imo.  Unless you have experienced that, you can't appreciate it.

[Shilgy]

23 hours ago, jmck said:

Well the problem is that in '97 Tiger was able to separate himself from the rest of the field with his singular skill.  Since '97, technology has gifted most every golfer on tour that skill.  ONE guy hitting wedge into 15 isn't a problem--that guy's earned it.  The problem is when EVERY guy is hitting wedge into 15.  If it's just one guy, good for him, there isn't any sort of fundamental problem that's changed the nature of the hole/game.  If it's every guy, well then maybe it's time to do something about it.  So you either change the 5 to a 4 on the scorecard and poor Bobby Jones spins in his grave, or you drop $20m buying up the neighbor's land to tack on 100+ yards.  Or you roll the equipment back. 

 

You've got people in this thread calling Fitzpatrick a "short knocker."  Dude is averaging 310 off the tee.  And he's ranked like 80th or 90th in driving distance.  In '97 you've got Tiger and Daly.  In '87 you had Love and Couples.  In '77 it was--I don't know?--maybe like Jack and Jim Thorpe or Dan Pohl or something?  And so on.  Now it's everyone.  That's not everyone's skill magically getting better in the last 20 years...that's advances in technology evening the playing field and masking the LACK of skill when it comes to hitting the ball TRULY Dead Solid Perfect at very high club head speeds.  

 

In '97 it was an incredible skill to hit driver like Tiger did.  Him and Daly, and that's it.  Two guys.  People don't want to hear it so they're attacking the messenger, but Fitzpatrick is right on this one.  It used to take such a rare skill to average 300+ off the tee and keep it in play that you could count the number of people in the world who could do so on one hand.  Now you've got an entire tour of guys who can--obviously thanks to technology, though amazingly people will disagree with that--and there's a whole 'nother generation of kids coming up behind them who are going to make 300 look like chicken feed.

You’re looking at a couple events using 310 average for him. The last 5 years varied from 278-294 off the tee. Not what my group would call short but even last years 294 was 121st on tour.  
If it’s sooooo easy to hit it longer why doesn’t he? If he can really “easily gain 40 yards” why would he not? Well, other than the work it would take to do so.  As I pointed out earlier he claimed to have “driven it beautifully” the first two rounds and hit 50% of  the fairways. The same percentage BDC did in the first two rounds while hitting it 10-16 yards longer on those measured holes. 
 

His complaint about accuracy should be rewarded as the skill and NOT length which to him is not a skill would be like an Aaron Baddeley saying putting should count double or some such because he is a great putter.

[Shilgy]

10 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

You may be right

 

but Fitz has amongst the most wins of anyone his age. Writing him off as a no one is the height of parochial ignorance 

5 euro wins and a t7 best in a major. Not exactly earth shattering.

[Shilgy]

6 hours ago, jmck said:

Nah.  This is like watching Nike create magical rocket shoes which increase everyone's vert by 24", then insisting that everything's fine with the NBA despite the magic shoes and anyone who says otherwise--or dares suggest that the rim should be raised!--is just being a complainer. 

 

Bryson could keep going until he looks like a young Schwarzenegger, but take modern equipment away from him and he's SOL with his current swing/game plan.  The equipment is the chicken here, Bryson is the egg.

So he’d be bagging groceries if they stilled played persimmon and balata? Is that really your assertion? 

[Shilgy]

6 hours ago, bladehunter said:

I ask this respectfully and hope for a thoughtful answer.  
 

why are there rules then ?  If that’s The only goal , to get around in fewest shots , why are there any rules ? 
 

my opinion is that there is indeed an idea as to how it should be played . Many rules hint or directly speak to this.  

C’mon what? What rules hint or speak of how to play other than where to tee off and what is permissible?

Are the commandments of golf:

1 thou shalt hit five iron or more into at least half the par 4’s

2 thou shalt lay up off the tee is said hole is concerned “narrow” by       many

3 thou shalt not attempt to hit more than one par five in two shots in a round.

4 if a player be longer than you with great efforts thou shalt complain to the golf gods rather than make the effort yourself. 
 

do there have to be ten?

[oikos1]

6 hours ago, bladehunter said:

It’s not that at all. It’s a disagreement with those rules that allows for the gains .  That’s the gripe.  Bryson is the symptom.  Not the problem.  

Fitzpatrick didn't say anything about the "rules".  He complained about Bryson doing more work than him and being better than him.

 

It is absolutely bizarre that any "roll it backer" doesn't realize they are griping in the wrong thread.

[Nard_S]

1 hour ago, ThinkingPlus said:

The golfers didn't suck, but their equipment did and the conditions under which they played were generally poor.

 

The ball is much better. The conditions are much better. The driver is 2 1/2 times bigger. The wind has been nullified by half. Everything is better except the actual tournaments. Without high wind, The Open is easy. Without high wind, the Masters is easy. The US Open has to practically kill the greens or have absurd rough to make it competitive. The PGA tries all sorts of things and when they land at a Pete Dye course it usually works. Mr. Dye understood what was happening and for the most part he got it right. In the last 10 years, maybe 1 major qualifies as epic.

 

So why do we continue with the false pretense that Pro's and Ams have to have the same sanctioned gear?  Let the Ams use all the tech they want or don't want. Let the Tour put out the best product they can. Competing with the Long Drive Tour is not the way to go. 30 under can be fun but gets old fast. Bring some balance back by regulating ball and gear. Let them go mano a mano with both man & course & the elements.

 

[Shilgy]

5 hours ago, bladehunter said:

There’s a huge difference  between 290 and 378.  

What’s the 378 stand for? I heard on wrx that Jack could hit it over 300 any time he wanted to. But hit it 270 because that was what the architect intended. And he hit it 340 something in a PGA long drive contest so he really was using less than 80% of what he could do on demand. So is 340 something then less of a problem than 340 today?

 

Yes that is, mostly, sarcastic but this has turned into a silly thread. But then most threads we indulge in get silly really.

 

We have a comment, well it was a whine really, from a young professional that his skill is what matters and that length, no matter how much effort went into it, should not count. He also accused BDC of peds in my opinion with the “I could go to a biochemist” part of the whine. He claims he could add 40yards if he worked at it but shouldn’t have to work so hard.

 

I think that about covers it. 😇

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, Dr. Block said:

So you would agree that your original post lacked a frame of reference?  Also, did you read the part about valued persimmon blocks and head designs being used for some odd 40 years?  If something that was made in 1950 was used for that long, it must not of "sucked" as you so eloquently put it. 

They used the horse and carriage for hundreds of years but compared to today’s automobile they sucked. 
That was the point by @ThinkingPlus

 

But then you knew that.

[mahonie]

40 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

I enjoy golf as it is today because it is still a life long game that i can play well into my old age and still pick up skills along the way.  One can never get too good at golf.  It is no easy sport.  Never has been, never will be.

 

Also, when I was first playing, you could have given me a modern club and ball and I would be hitting it nowhere near as far as I can now.  I recall hitting it much straighter when I was young too.  With a large increase in speed, comes an exponential increase in skill to control it imo.  Unless you have experienced that, you can't appreciate it.

As I posted earlier in this thread, I hit it 50 yards further now than I did in my 20s just by changing the AOA (and using modern equipment)...it took me a while to master it but it didn’t take any additional skill, just a bit of practice.

 

You may remember that the driver used to be the hardest club in the bag to hit and yet now it is the easiest...I’m afraid it has nothing to do with an exponential increase in skill but everything to do with the technology, so don’t fool yourself.

[bladehunter]

15 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

Fitzpatrick didn't say anything about the "rules".  He complained about Bryson doing more work than him and being better than him.

 

It is absolutely bizarre that any "roll it backer" doesn't realize they are griping in the wrong thread.

I think that’s open to interpretation.  He didn’t directly say that he was working hard.  He said he was “ making a mockery of the game “.  I interpret that as using his Maximizing of his equipment choices to “ beat “ the game.     He’s not really doing much physically more than many other players.   He didn’t say Wolfe was making a mockery or Rory. Or champ.  He singled out Bryson and his off color equipment  choices.    This is my interpretation.  I could be flat wrong.   But 48 inch driver - single length - armlock - graphite ....all equipment centered.  

 

but hey.  As I type that I like the guy more and more.  I usually love an underdog.  Or oddball.  We kin folk have to stick together.  
 

[clevited]

1 minute ago, mahonie said:

As I posted earlier in this thread, I hit it 50 yards further now than I did in my 20s just by changing the AOA (and using modern equipment)...it took me a while to master it but it didn’t take any additional skill, just a bit of practice.

 

You may remember that the driver used to be the hardest club in the bag to hit and yet now it is the easiest...I’m afraid it has nothing to do with an exponential increase in skill but everything to do with the technology, so don’t fool yourself.

Still hardest by far for me. 

[bladehunter]

11 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

What’s the 378 stand for? I heard on wrx that Jack could hit it over 300 any time he wanted to. But hit it 270 because that was what the architect intended. And he hit it 340 something in a PGA long drive contest so he really was using less than 80% of what he could do on demand. So is 340 something then less of a problem than 340 today?

 

Yes that is, mostly, sarcastic but this has turned into a silly thread. But then most threads we indulge in get silly really.

 

We have a comment, well it was a whine really, from a young professional that his skill is what matters and that length, no matter how much effort went into it, should not count. He also accused BDC of peds in my opinion with the “I could go to a biochemist” part of the whine. He claims he could add 40yards if he worked at it but shouldn’t have to work so hard.

 

I think that about covers it. 😇

378 Just a carry number I recall from Bryson at from whatever week this thread started.  

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, Dr. Block said:

Incase you whipper-snappers didn't know, Fred Couples used a 1950's Mac Persimmon head from college all the way till the early 90's.  That clubhead must have really been a piece of crap though. 

 

He also used ladies irons slathered in lead tape. Odd for a great design...

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/518376/the-gear-dive-fred-couples-explains-why-he-used-to-play-with-ladies-irons-covered-in-lead-tape/

[mahonie]

6 minutes ago, clevited said:

Still hardest by far for me. 

🙄

[bladehunter]

28 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

C’mon what? What rules hint or speak of how to play other than where to tee off and what is permissible?

Are the commandments of golf:

1 thou shalt hit five iron or more into at least half the par 4’s

2 thou shalt lay up off the tee is said hole is concerned “narrow” by       many

3 thou shalt not attempt to hit more than one par five in two shots in a round.

4 if a player be longer than you with great efforts thou shalt complain to the golf gods rather than make the effort yourself. 
 

do there have to be ten?

lol.  Was simply showing titleist99 that the game isn’t a no holds barred free for all.  Over simplification only works if you parse each part out and divide and conquer. You can’t just throw away the parts you don’t like and claim victory.  
 

the game has equipment rules.  For a reason.  They dictate HOW or with what you can preform the least number of strokes.  These rules have been changed before.  So it’s perfectly reasonable to think they can or should be changed again.  I don’t see how staying the simplest idea of the game prevents that.  
 

 

[clevited]

9 minutes ago, mahonie said:

🙄

 

The slower you swing, the easier they are to hit, just sayin.  Goes for any club. Your timing has to be truly exceptional, dare i say elite to do what Bryson is doing right now.  I know how incredible it is, especially with such a low lofted club.  You have to have talent to do that and during a major to boot.

[Shilgy]

4 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

lol.  Was simply showing titleist99 that the game isn’t a no holds barred free for all.  Over simplification only works if you parse each part out and divide and conquer. You can’t just throw away the parts you don’t like and claim victory.  
 

the game has equipment rules.  For a reason.  They dictate HOW or with what you can preform the least number of strokes.  These rules have been changed before.  So it’s perfectly reasonable to think they can or should be changed again.  I don’t see how staying the simplest idea of the game prevents that.  
 

 

I responded as I did because so many posts have had the “as the architect intended “  and the “USGA and r&a want the game played a certain way” vibe.

The game even at the elite level has always been played a multitude of ways. Kenny Perry draws every shot unless forced to hit a fade by an obstacle. Lietzke faded everything. Even into tucked left pins.

Some guys hit it high, some hit it low. Some hit it straight like a Funk or Reid and some scrambled their Word not allowed off seemingly every hole. 
When Naismith created basketball he never imagined the game as it is today but that doesn’t mean we should return to peach baskets. 
Baseball mandates wood bats at the professional level for safety above all else. Do you want to be pitching to Trout Judge Stanton etc with steel bats. College and lower use metal to save money.

[physasst]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

What’s the 378 stand for? I heard on wrx that Jack could hit it over 300 any time he wanted to. But hit it 270 because that was what the architect intended. And he hit it 340 something in a PGA long drive contest so he really was using less than 80% of what he could do on demand. So is 340 something then less of a problem than 340 today?

 

Yes that is, mostly, sarcastic but this has turned into a silly thread. But then most threads we indulge in get silly really.

 

We have a comment, well it was a whine really, from a young professional that his skill is what matters and that length, no matter how much effort went into it, should not count. He also accused BDC of peds in my opinion with the “I could go to a biochemist” part of the whine. He claims he could add 40yards if he worked at it but shouldn’t have to work so hard.

 

I think that about covers it. 😇

 

That's about it. Fitzpatrick comes off like a whiny petulant dumb a**. I'm turning fifty this year. I've been golfing since I was 14. Played high school golf, tourneys, etc. I've broken all my clubs (once), quit golf at least 5 times that I can think of (once for 8 years), but keep coming back. My short game, according to my golf buddies is equivalent to a low single digit. My chipping is really good and my putting is solid. Where do I struggle? TEE to GREEN....especially driver. I got so fed up I didn't even carry one for almost 10 years. Despite over 10k spent in lessons, thousands of hours on the range, trackman sessions, contraptions, etc. I still can't a driver for s***. I step on a tee box and just get nervous as hell. Especially because all those lessons turned my ONE way miss into a TWO way miss.....so, now, I reference my tee shots as Pandora's box, since I have no idea where the ball is going to go. I'll take all the help I can get.

 

I've competed in BJJ, boxing, MMA for years. Fitzpatrick reminds me of the whiners in BJJ yelling about ankle locks and heel hooks. MMA has evolved like you can't believe from the first UFC fights. So much more complicated now. Every sport evolves....Golf is no different.

[physasst]

For the record, these were my first clubs. I still keep them. I even hit them once in a while, and then remember that technology is my friend...

 

M

[mahonie]

7 hours ago, clevited said:

 

The slower you swing, the easier they are to hit, just sayin.  Goes for any club. Your timing has to be truly exceptional, dare i say elite to do what Bryson is doing right now.  I know how incredible it is, especially with such a low lofted club.  You have to have talent to do that and during a major to boot.

I’ve always said that you have got to give BCD a lot of credit for what he has done and is doing. I’ve also said the USGA/R&A messed this up back in the day and it’s going to be difficult to rein it back in. My issue in this debate is that the out-of-scale proportions of the 460cc driver allied with the non-linear spin profile of the Pro V1 and its ilk, have effectively neutralised what I would call the ‘mid-game.’  Yes, bomb and gouge is within the rules of the game and fair play to BCD for exploiting that. However, there is a very limited requirement or opportunity to play shots within the 150-220 yard range anymore for anybody. This is the area of the game that has largely disappeared and why I say the game now is half the game that it was. 

 

If anybody is struggling to hit the modern ball and driver half decently, then I can only suggest a few lessons to iron out that major swing flaw...it really is the easiest club in the bag to hit...my 28 handicap mate is Exhibit A.