Who is the best Wedge/Short game player on PGA, European, or Champions Tour?

[extrastiff]

On 1/7/2021 at 11:30 PM, BallerNate said:

Just watched the videos...incredible feel and control for sure!! Is that a 64 degree LW or is it just a 60 opened up? Looks like we need a Brett Rumford WITB...just looked it up on WRX and there was nothing.

 

Edit: I found a WITB from 2017 (Golf Monthly)...he used Vokey SM6 46, 52, 60 at that time. I’ve actually been going back and forth on my wedge setup and have been wanting to find the right 3 wedge setup and this could be perfect! My PW is 47, but I’ve been hesitant to go 52, 60 after that because of the gaps...but if Rumford could make it work, maybe I can get the distances dialed in with those gaps also!

I think great players very rarely consider the “gapping of their sand wedge and lob wedge. Not often that a mile high, 10,000 rpm lob shot is the “best” shot to be playing.  They are typically opening the face, closing it, choking down, half swings ....

[dlygrisse]

On 1/8/2021 at 8:32 AM, mat562 said:

As far as bunker play goes - an area I'm sensitive to, as it's long been my best/only genuinely decently ranking area of play - I've seen a lot of the best in the business over the years: Trevino, Player, Watson, Seve, Olazabal, Langer, Azinger, Faldo, Els, Price, Frost, Andrade, Sluman, Woods, Mickelson, Donald, Rose, Rumford, Day and co. An early 1990s Tony Johnstone would take them all for a few quid in a late evening, nearest-the-pin on the practice green scramble for money.

 

In today's game I'd take Justin Thomas's game for fuller wedge shots and pitching. Chipping-wise, I'll still take Olazabal, thanks, even semi-retired. As recently as a couple of years ago, up-close, he's still amazing. Of the current players, I'll choose Jason Day. Bunker play? Fowler and Walker are both impressive, as is Rumford, but I'd go with Day again if my own money was on the line.

I always thought Ernie Els had a great bunker game, nothing fancy just solid shots every time.  , Day is great, so was Azinger and of course Seve and Ollie were tremendous.  Phil has a really nice bunker game as well, while I always thought greenside bunker play was maybe the worst part of Tiger's game.  Although he was no slouch.  

 

JT is great on those wedge shots, so is Zach Johnson, Tiger is really good when dialed in, he controls the spin so well.  

 

Chipping and scrambling, Phil is so good on some shots, Tiger is magical at times and just so great at pulling off the shot needed under pressure like the rest of his game, Olazabal was unbelievable along with Seve, but one of the best I ever say was Victor Dubuisson, he had a few tour events where he was getting up and down from everywhere, incredible at scrambling.  

[BallerNate]

2 hours ago, extrastiff said:

I think great players very rarely consider the “gapping of their sand wedge and lob wedge. Not often that a mile high, 10,000 rpm lob shot is the “best” shot to be playing.  They are typically opening the face, closing it, choking down, half swings ....

Makes sense on gapping of the SW & LW by Pros, they go by what works for them and what gives them the best chance of winning right? By “mile high, 10,000 rpm lob shots, do you mean shots with a 64 LW?

[BallerNate]

On 1/12/2021 at 12:49 PM, BraxtonFullerton said:

Tiger back in the early-mid 2000s was absolute money with his wedge game. I feel like as time's gone on and courses have gotten longer; and he's aged, he's much more of a pure iron striker compared to driver/wedge that most of the longer hitters have become.

Right now I would agree with the consensus pick of Patrick Reed.

After watching the US Open I don't know how many don't consider Bryson to be near the top. That rough was no joke and he kept parking the ball in spots to hit birdie putts.
Collin Morikawa also puts on a pretty good show.

Yeah, I just watched the Chasing 82 movie about Tiger on GC and the highlights of his chipping/pitching and putting was absolutely incredible!! Wish I had watched him in his prime.

 

Patrick Reed is incredible with his wedges and is super fun to watch create shots to get up & down!

 

Bryson and Morikawa have gotten a couple of mentions...from the tournaments I’ve watched it seems like Bryson is pretty hot & cold with his wedges and putting, but when he’s on he’s great! I’ve seen Morikawa be pretty hot & cold too, but I’m still new to watching all these guys consistently.

[extrastiff]

1 hour ago, BallerNate said:

Makes sense on gapping of the SW & LW by Pros, they go by what works for them and what gives them the best chance of winning right? By “mile high, 10,000 rpm lob shots, do you mean shots with a 64 LW?

Ha no. I’d say most pros swing fast enough that even their gap wedge spins about that much on a full swing.  
 

Id speculate that I’ve never seen a scratch or plus cap swing their sand wedge or lob wedge with a full swing unless trying to get over a tree. 
 

Always flighted down, and working on lowering spin. It’s not about gapping the sw and lw once u get that good, it’s about trajectories, spin control, and repeatability.

 

Honestly, that’s what I think it should be about for all golfers, but it seems It takes most decent swing speed amateurs quite a bit of experience to figure it out

Edited January 14, 2021 by extrastiff

[BallerNate]

1 hour ago, extrastiff said:

Ha no. I’d say most pros swing fast enough that even their gap wedge spins about that much on a full swing.  
 

Id speculate that I’ve never seen a scratch or plus cap swing their sand wedge or lob wedge with a full swing unless trying to get over a tree. 
 

Always flighted down, and working on lowering spin. It’s not about gapping the sw and lw once u get that good, it’s about trajectories, spin control, and repeatability.

 

Honestly, that’s what I think it should be about for all golfers, but it seems It takes most decent swing speed amateurs quite a bit of experience to figure it out

Ok gotcha, makes sense. The wedge game is the weakest part of my game, that’s why I’m so fascinated by watching the Pros hit their chips & pitches, and reading about that area of the game as well. I probably spend more than 50% of my practice time now on my wedges and am determined to make it a strength!

[dlygrisse]

30 minutes ago, BallerNate said:

Ok gotcha, makes sense. The wedge game is the weakest part of my game, that’s why I’m so fascinated by watching the Pros hit their chips & pitches, and reading about that area of the game as well. I probably spend more than 50% of my practice time now on my wedges and am determined to make it a strength!

I've always been a big believer in picking wedges to do a job around the green more than filling a gap.  For example if your main greenside wedge is 60, you also hit a lot of shots with a 56 because you like the different bounce options and trajectories inside 50 yards, then don't sweat it if there is a big bap between the SW and your gap or pw.  Just learn to hit a little 3/4 shot with that club.  Perfect gaps look good on paper but in reality they don't mean that much.  

[BallerNate]

43 minutes ago, dlygrisse said:

I've always been a big believer in picking wedges to do a job around the green more than filling a gap.  For example if your main greenside wedge is 60, you also hit a lot of shots with a 56 because you like the different bounce options and trajectories inside 50 yards, then don't sweat it if there is a big bap between the SW and your gap or pw.  Just learn to hit a little 3/4 shot with that club.  Perfect gaps look good on paper but in reality they don't mean that much.  

Yeah you’re right, that’s what it all about...what is the best functionality for your game! I’m just learning about all the different grinds and bounce options now. My plan for this upcoming season is to go with 3 wedges and it will either be a 47, 52, 60 setup, or 47, 52, 58 depending on what yardages and shots I can get from each one. Right now my wedges are all standard bounce (TM Milled Grind 52-09, 60-10), but may look at lower bounce options since the courses I play around here are usually pretty dry/firm in the Summer/Fall and I’m not a deep divot striker usually.

Edited January 14, 2021 by BallerNate

[dlygrisse]

2 hours ago, BallerNate said:

Yeah you’re right, that’s what it all about...what is the best functionality for your game! I’m just learning about all the different grinds and bounce options now. My plan for this upcoming season is to go with 3 wedges and it will either be a 47, 52, 60 setup, or 47, 52, 58 depending on what yardages and shots I can get from each one. Right now my wedges are all standard bounce (TM Milled Grind 52-09, 60-10), but may look at lower bounce options since the courses I play around here are usually pretty dry/firm in the Summer/Fall and I’m not a deep divot striker usually.

For me it’s a 58* with a decent amount of bounce and some heel toe grind. Currently it’s a Glide SS, I also really like the vokey M grind.  To me every set I have owned I start with the 58 and set PW wedge then throw in one or two clubs in the gap.  Since PW’s have gotten so much stronger I’ve learned to like the 50. 
back when I was young my PW was 48-50 so I just carried a 56  and later a 60 once they became available. Experimented with a 60 for awhile but once the 58 became a normal loft I dumped the traditional 56 and 60 for the 58. 

 

I’m a big fan of the stock set 50*.  
I have a 54 Glide to fill the gap but I don’t use it a lot.  If I had to pull a wedge that would be it. 
 

 

[extrastiff]

3 hours ago, BallerNate said:

Yeah you’re right, that’s what it all about...what is the best functionality for your game! I’m just learning about all the different grinds and bounce options now. My plan for this upcoming season is to go with 3 wedges and it will either be a 47, 52, 60 setup, or 47, 52, 58 depending on what yardages and shots I can get from each one. Right now my wedges are all standard bounce (TM Milled Grind 52-09, 60-10), but may look at lower bounce options since the courses I play around here are usually pretty dry/firm in the Summer/Fall and I’m not a deep divot striker usually.

Do not... I repeat.. do not go lower bounce lol. 
 

if u can’t hit it with 10 bounce consistently, 6-8 bounce will just make it worse (especially in the bunker unless u only play in hard wet sand).

 

 Since I got decent, I have not come across a single shot where I was like “I really wish I had less bounce so I can flop this shot off this bare lie.”  Lol stay away from that shot, chip it to the big part of the green and take your medicine.

 

anyways to get you thread back on track, please watch Brett rumFord videos over and over again. I swear, he might not be the best short game the game has seen (tho he’s top 10 on most lists I’d assume, and he is definitely the best I’ve seen), but I’d say him and Jason day are the best short games that can actually explain it in really easy to digest and meaningful ways. Lots of great short games out there, very few however that are great instructors also

Edited January 15, 2021 by extrastiff

[BallerNate]

3 hours ago, dlygrisse said:

For me it’s a 58* with a decent amount of bounce and some heel toe grind. Currently it’s a Glide SS, I also really like the vokey M grind.  To me every set I have owned I start with the 58 and set PW wedge then throw in one or two clubs in the gap.  Since PW’s have gotten so much stronger I’ve learned to like the 50. 

1 hour ago, extrastiff said:

Do not... I repeat.. do not go lower bounce lol. 
 

if u can’t hit it with 10 bounce consistently, 6-8 bounce will just make it worse (especially in the bunker unless u only play in hard wet sand).

 

Thanks for the insights, definitely appreciated! I’ve never tried a 58*, always been a 60* guy and have always loved it, and have also never tried a low bounce wedge...so all theoretical and appreciate the feedback.

 

Have heard that the 58* is a lot more versatile than the 60* and easier to get consistency from, so will probably stick with it once I try it also. I can see how standard bounce wedges would be more versatile than low bounce too.

 

Brett Rumford has been highly recommended on this thread and loved the videos that were posted too! Going to look up more of his stuff for sure...he looks like a master at work! 
 

 

[dlygrisse]

14 hours ago, extrastiff said:

Do not... I repeat.. do not go lower bounce lol. 
 

if u can’t hit it with 10 bounce consistently, 6-8 bounce will just make it worse (especially in the bunker unless u only play in hard wet sand).

 

 Since I got decent, I have not come across a single shot where I was like “I really wish I had less bounce so I can flop this shot off this bare lie.”  Lol stay away from that shot, chip it to the big part of the green and take your medicine.

 

anyways to get you thread back on track, please watch Brett rumFord videos over and over again. I swear, he might not be the best short game the game has seen (tho he’s top 10 on most lists I’d assume, and he is definitely the best I’ve seen), but I’d say him and Jason day are the best short games that can actually explain it in really easy to digest and meaningful ways. Lots of great short games out there, very few however that are great instructors also

You can hit good wedge shots off of concrete with 10* bounce if you have good technique.  It’s really not that difficult.  I have an older wedge that I keep on my back deck for backyard practice that I hit shots off of concrete with.  Full flops are dicey, but a nice medium height spinner is easy. 

[BallerNate]

9 minutes ago, dlygrisse said:

You can hit good wedge shots off of concrete with 10* bounce if you have good technique.  It’s really not that difficult.  I have an older wedge that I keep on my back deck for backyard practice that I hit shots off of concrete with.  Full flops are dicey, but a nice medium height spinner is easy. 

Haha! Well, some of the bunkers and fairways in my area pretty much feel like concrete in the Summer and Fall, so practicing off concrete actually isn’t a bad idea, Lol! 🤣

[dlygrisse]

On 1/9/2021 at 10:17 AM, RichieHunt said:

Depends on what we define as 'wedge play.'  If it's 40 yards and in and includes bunker play. Or if it's just 40 yards and in and not including bunker play or if shows from say 130 yards and in are included.

Mickelson is a good study. He can probably execute the most difficult shots with the best of them, but statistically he's usually in the 'pretty good' category.  People don't remember all of the bad flops he has hit or when he's tried to hit a nearly impossible shot when there were much safer options available and he failed.  Phil loves to chip with the wedge even on the fringe, but everything I've ever researched about it is if you're within 4-feet of the edge of the green you're better off putting than chipping.  In essence, the skill level appears to be there, but the decision making may hold Phil back from a statistical standpoint.

Jason Day is incredible from 40-yards in and is arguably the best bunker player on Tour.  Luke Donald is hard to beat as well. Jim Furyk doesn't get nearly enough praise.

Some lesser known guys when it comes to around the green are Steven Jaeger, Steve Alker, Bud Cauley and Kevin Na. Charles Howell III is really good, but doesn't get much credit for it.  

We don't have much actual data on Rumford, but having watched him in person it's hard to believe that if his strategy is sound that he wouldn't be one of the very best.

 

 

 

 

RH

Stats can be so deceiving and interesting at the same time. For example you say you question Phil from the fringe. In 2020 he was T32 on tour from the fringe. He was 20 for 21. One shot from perfect. Yet you say CH3 is pretty good yet he was DFL at #193

[dlygrisse]

Last year Jordan Spieth was 120th in total scrambling. Phil was 60th. 
 

how much of this is wedge skills?

how much is putting?

how much is leaving yourself in difficult situations because of bad ball striking?

 

playing conservative and missing greens in good places has as much to do with getting up and down as good wedge skills many times.  I think Phil’s aggressive nature puts him in positions that are almost impossible to recover from. Same with Jordan’s wild ball striking. He as no idea where his miss is going right now. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by dlygrisse

[RichieHunt]

 

1 hour ago, dlygrisse said:

Stats can be so deceiving and interesting at the same time. For example you say you question Phil from the fringe. In 2020 he was T32 on tour from the fringe. He was 20 for 21. One shot from perfect. Yet you say CH3 is pretty good yet he was DFL at #193

 

Scrambling conversion % is a poor metric to determine somebody's play around the greens because a player can hit a poor chip shot and make a great putt. Conversely, they can hit a great chip and miss an easy putt.

 

Proximity is a better metric.  Mickelson was t-90th from the fringe in 2019, t-46th in 2018, t-29th in 2017.

But fringe play is just a small part of play around the green.  And even measuring proximity to the cup on all fringe shots is flawed (Player A may have much longer fringe shots than player B). 

 

That's where Strokes Gained - Around the Green matters.  It takes the lie and the distance to the hole for the shot around the green.  Then is measures to the nearest inch where the player hit the ball to the hole along with what the lie is (green, bunker, rough, fairway, etc) and determines the 'strokes gained/lost' by determining the average strokes to hole after they hit their shot compared to what their projected strokes to the hole was on their initial shot.

 

There's just not a lot of shots from the fringe nor is there a wide deviation in results for shots from the fringe and that's why they tend to have minimal impact on a player's performance around the green.

 

Mickelson finished 13th in ST - ATG in 2020 (Howell was 11th)

Mickelson was 73rd in 2019 (Howell was 16th)

Mickelson was 73rd in 2018 (Howell was 72nd)

Mickelson was 36th in 2017 (Howell was 75th)

 

Stats aren't always misleading, particularly when one drills down enough to factor in more variables that lead to a more accurate depiction of performance.  Biases are misleading and usually when it comes to Mickelson people often think he's the best or one of the best short game performers around the green.  Conversely, people believe that Howell is this great ballstriker who is hamstrung by poor short game and poor putting.  In the end, the two are very good short game performers and are more or less equals around the green, but not the best on Tour.

 

 

 

 

RH

[dlygrisse]

10 minutes ago, RichieHunt said:

 

 

Scrambling conversion % is a poor metric to determine somebody's play around the greens because a player can hit a poor chip shot and make a great putt. Conversely, they can hit a great chip and miss an easy putt.

 

Proximity is a better metric.  Mickelson was t-90th from the fringe in 2019, t-46th in 2018, t-29th in 2017.

But fringe play is just a small part of play around the green.  And even measuring proximity to the cup on all fringe shots is flawed (Player A may have much longer fringe shots than player B). 

 

That's where Strokes Gained - Around the Green matters.  It takes the lie and the distance to the hole for the shot around the green.  Then is measures to the nearest inch where the player hit the ball to the hole along with what the lie is (green, bunker, rough, fairway, etc) and determines the 'strokes gained/lost' by determining the average strokes to hole after they hit their shot compared to what their projected strokes to the hole was on their initial shot.

 

There's just not a lot of shots from the fringe nor is there a wide deviation in results for shots from the fringe and that's why they tend to have minimal impact on a player's performance around the green.

 

Mickelson finished 13th in ST - ATG in 2020 (Howell was 11th)

Mickelson was 73rd in 2019 (Howell was 16th)

Mickelson was 73rd in 2018 (Howell was 72nd)

Mickelson was 36th in 2017 (Howell was 75th)

 

Stats aren't always misleading, particularly when one drills down enough to factor in more variables that lead to a more accurate depiction of performance.  Biases are misleading and usually when it comes to Mickelson people often think he's the best or one of the best short game performers around the green.  Conversely, people believe that Howell is this great ballstriker who is hamstrung by poor short game and poor putting.  In the end, the two are very good short game performers and are more or less equals around the green, but not the best on Tour.

 

 

 

 

RH

Makes sense, I think...however I will still contend that someone like Phil, because of his aggressive nature, leaves himself in much more precarious positions than a lot of players.  HIs up and downs are more difficult often times.  I have no proof of this, but just watching him over the years it seems to be true.  

 

Are there any stats that show how a player does when in contention, or on the weekends.  It's odd to me that you have a guy like Tiger, Phil or Spieth, who seem to have great short games, yet the stats don't always show that.  Some guys rise to the occasion when they need to while others wilt under pressure.  To me that is what makes a great putter or a great shotmaker.  For example Tiger's famous putt at Torey, if Rickie Fowler makes that putt on Thursday no one cares, but Tiger making it when he made it makes it one of the most famous clutch putts of all time.  

[BallerNate]

Watching Joaquin Niemann over the last 2 weeks in Hawaii has been eye-opening! At only 22 yrs old, his chipping and putting are very advanced and he is an extremely exciting young player!!

 

 

[BallerNate]

Listening to Slaying the Tiger, by Shane Ryan right now on audiobook and he goes into detail about Patrick Reed’s background and character. I understand now why so many guys said “hate to admit it but...” about how awesome Reed’s short game is. Fascinating story about how many people he’s burnt and how disliked he is. You’ve really got to go out of your way to be that disliked, Lol!

[iBanesto]

Snedeker has an underrated short game. We all know he is an amazing putter.

 

 

 

 

 

[PhilWhitUK]

On 1/8/2021 at 8:06 PM, mat562 said:

Just to throw another name in, hardly a low baller as he's the current Champion Golfer of the Year, but Shane Lowry is pretty adept at most shots around the green. Lowry's probably as likely to hole a chip from just off the green as Ray Floyd was in his prime.

This is a very good call.

 

I know someone who worked with golf Ireland years ago and Pete Cowen did a coaching session.  Everyone was raving about one junior in particular (Rory) but Pete Cowen noted they had two potential world class players.  The other was Shane Lowry who he had seen practicing short game (I think it was bunker shots).

 

In terms of Mickelson I am a massive fan and regularly re watch his instructional videos.  I do feel the last couple of years he hasn’t quite had the same magic in his short game but I love that he still has the belief it will work and tries it anyway. 

[BallerNate]

6 hours ago, PhilWhitUK said:

This is a very good call.

 

I know someone who worked with golf Ireland years ago and Pete Cowen did a coaching session.  Everyone was raving about one junior in particular (Rory) but Pete Cowen noted they had two potential world class players.  The other was Shane Lowry who he had seen practicing short game (I think it was bunker shots).

 

In terms of Mickelson I am a massive fan and regularly re watch his instructional videos.  I do feel the last couple of years he hasn’t quite had the same magic in his short game but I love that he still has the belief it will work and tries it anyway. 

Yeah, I’ve watched Shane Lowry a few times on the ET and he is very solid for sure! Look forward to watching him in 2021, and just picked up some RTX Zipcore wedges yesterday, so can relate to him a little bit more now!

 

As far as Mickleson goes, there’s no questioning all the success he’s had, but I’m personally not a big fan of his game...just not my cup of tea.

[BallerNate]

How about Lee Westwood...one of the greatest ET Champions and is still winning tournaments at 47? The times I’ve watched him he’s been pretty incredible, but haven’t seen anyone mention him?

[rkelso184]

Cameron Smith.

[BallerNate]

3 hours ago, rkelso184 said:

Cameron Smith.

Yeah, Cameron Smith is one of the first guys I mentioned. I think his short game must be very underrated since no one else mentioned him until now, but some of the wedge shots he executes are incredible and he seems very consistent with his pitching, chipping, scrambling, and putting.

[BIM_Monkey]

If we are taking past abilities into account and not current form. Tiger in his prime during 99/00 is pretty much untouchable. He was incredibly from off the green and at putting. 

 

Watch the highlights of the 99 Memorial Tournament as a prime example. 

[BallerNate]

2 hours ago, BIM_Monkey said:

If we are taking past abilities into account and not current form. Tiger in his prime during 99/00 is pretty much untouchable. He was incredibly from off the green and at putting. 

 

Watch the highlights of the 99 Memorial Tournament as a prime example. 

Watched those highlights...incredible for sure!! Wish I had watched Tiger in his prime, but will definitely watch more of his prime tournaments on YouTube for sure.

[MMB1500]

I'm not suggesting he's the best on Tour but Sungjae Im's shortgame in the last round of the Masters was absolutely sublime. 

 

The fella has some serious skills in that department. 

Edited January 24, 2021 by MMB1500

[dlygrisse]

On 1/21/2021 at 9:24 AM, BallerNate said:

How about Lee Westwood...one of the greatest ET Champions and is still winning tournaments at 47? The times I’ve watched him he’s been pretty incredible, but haven’t seen anyone mention him?

I haven’t seen him play much in the last few years but I always felt short game was his weakness.  Great ball striker though. 

[BallerNate]

40 minutes ago, dlygrisse said:

I haven’t seen him play much in the last few years but I always felt short game was his weakness.  Great ball striker though. 

Yeah, after I wrote that post I watched Westwood in last year’s Abu Dhabi HSBC Championship, and then watched this year’s, and I saw that he looked below average with his wedges for sure. The 1st Round where he was paired with Rory McIlroy and Hatton really made that weakness stand out because they are both excellent short game players.