Ball Marker With Alignment Line Question

[phillyspecial]

I recently got an onpoint triple track ball marker.  After I mark my ball and the ball is in pocket, can I rotate the marker after I read the putt to better establish my line BEFORE I put my ball back in play?  Or can I only rotate the marker in the act of marking the ball before the ball is picked up?  

 

I have searched the internet for this, and while many address the legality of the actual line on the marker (legal), I cant find an answer to this precise question.  

 

 

https://onpointgolf.us/

[Newby]

See thread Latest clarifications published

 

Clarifications of the 2019 Rules of Golf
Updated 7 April 2021

 

2. When Use of Alignment Device Results in Breach
If a player places an “alignment device” (see Definition in Equipment Rules to see when a ball-marker meets this Definition) to show the line of play and then orients his or her ball based on the direction of that alignment device, the player is in breach of Rule 4.3a.
For example, a player’s ball comes to rest on the putting green and the player marks the spot of his or her ball with an “alignment device.” When doing so, the alignment device is placed to show the line of play. If the player then lifts and replaces his or her ball (which includes rotating it) so that a marking on the ball is lined up with the alignment device, the player is in breach of Rule 4.3a. (Added 1/2020)

Edited April 8, 2021 by Newby

[phillyspecial]

These do not qualify as "alignment devices".  

 

Ball-makers with alignment aids (lines, arrows, etc.) must be:

• Less than one inch in height
• Less than two inches in any horizontal direction
• Must not measure or gauge slope, green speed, or other conditions

Any ball-marker that exceeds the above dimensions, and has alignment lines, is considered an “alignment device” and is not permitted. The first time an alignment device is used to mark and align the ball the player earns the General Penalty (loss of hole in match play and two strokes in stroke play). The second use results in Disqualification.

[Halebopp]

Nope, you need to have the ball in place when moving the marker and vice versa.

[Sawgrass]

I wish I could point you to a specific in the Rules as to spinning your mark when the ball is removed, but I’d ask you to accept that deliberately lifting your mark while the ball is removed is illegal, and spinning the mark is the equivalent of lifting it, as per the following portion of R14:

 

This Rule applies to the deliberate “lifting” of a player’s ball at rest, which includes picking up the ball by hand, rotating it or otherwise deliberately causing it to movefrom its spot.

 

 

[sui generis]

If I were king-for-a-day, players would be allowed to "rotate" their ball on the putting green without marking it. (This one, however, is way down the list of my king-for-a-day royal Rules changes proclamations.)

[Newby]

22 minutes ago, phillyspecial said:

 

22 minutes ago, phillyspecial said:

•  to mark and align the ball 

. The first time an alignment device is used to mark and align the ball the player earns the General Penalty (loss of hole in match play and two strokes in stroke play). The second use results in Disqualification.

If the ball and device are together and the device is indicating the line the bold words apply. 

Edited April 8, 2021 by Newby

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

See thread Latest clarifications published

 

Clarifications of the 2019 Rules of Golf
Updated 7 April 2021

 

2. When Use of Alignment Device Results in Breach
If a player places an “alignment device” (see Definition in Equipment Rules to see when a ball-marker meets this Definition) to show the line of play and then orients his or her ball based on the direction of that alignment device, the player is in breach of Rule 4.3a.
For example, a player’s ball comes to rest on the putting green and the player marks the spot of his or her ball with an “alignment device.” When doing so, the alignment device is placed to show the line of play. If the player then lifts and replaces his or her ball (which includes rotating it) so that a marking on the ball is lined up with the alignment device, the player is in breach of Rule 4.3a. (Added 1/2020)

 

So this was NOT updated 7 April 2021...

[antip]

4 hours ago, Newby said:

If the ball and device are together and the device is indicating the line the bold words apply. 

You are misunderstanding the clarification (January 2020), which is about use of an alignment device. A ball marker that does not breach the conditions in the Equipment Rules is not an alignment device so that clarification has no relevance to the OP. 

[antip]

4 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

I wish I could point you to a specific in the Rules as to spinning your mark when the ball is removed, but I’d ask you to accept that deliberately lifting your mark while the ball is removed is illegal, and spinning the mark is the equivalent of lifting it, as per the following portion of R14:

 

This Rule applies to the deliberate “lifting” of a player’s ball at rest, which includes picking up the ball by hand, rotating it or otherwise deliberately causing it to movefrom its spot.

 

 

I agree. Rule 9.7 also provides some guidance in this space, indicating that deliberately moving a ball marker that is marking the spot of a lifted ball is a penalty unless the 9.4b or 9.5b Exceptions apply. Interestingly, the rules don't say anything explicit that equates "rotating" a marker with "rotating" a ball, but there seems to be no reason to treat them differently.

 

[phillyspecial]

Thanks for the replies.  Best to assume rotating is in fact illegal then.  You would think a company selling these would say that on their site explicitly.  Would be very easy to get screwed in a club event using it the wrong way.  

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, phillyspecial said:

Thanks for the replies.  Best to assume rotating is in fact illegal then.  You would think a company selling these would say that on their site explicitly.  Would be very easy to get screwed in a club event using it the wrong way.  

 

Any reason creating any doubt in the mind of a potential buyer is not to be advised if you want to sell your merchandise. There must be hundreds of various equipment for sale that are not allowed to be used according to the Rules of Golf and they sure do not advertise that. Sometimes it is quite the opposite as you may find a print on the package 'Approved by USGA' and it is STILL against the Rules to use it 😆

[dmecca2]

23 hours ago, sui generis said:

If I were king-for-a-day, players would be allowed to "rotate" their ball on the putting green without marking it. (This one, however, is way down the list of my king-for-a-day royal Rules changes proclamations.)

If the rule hasn't been updated, I believe you are allowed to temporarily mark your ball with your putter to "rotate" the ball on the green. 

[sui generis]

8 minutes ago, dmecca2 said:

If the rule hasn't been updated, I believe you are allowed to temporarily mark your ball with your putter to "rotate" the ball on the green. 

 

You're quite right. It's as easy as pie to do this iaw R14.1. However, that seems too much trouble for some. 🙂

 

The way I see it is that a ball marker (or toe of putter or any other acceptable artificial object) is thought to be necessary when a ball is to be replaced. I contend that a player who merely rotates the ball without moving it (see Definition of Moved) could do so without the benefit of a ball marker.

 

 

[bobfoster]

What most have said here is correct. Basic principle - either the ball is in play, or the marker. Before the marker is down, and after it is picked up, you can't move the ball. When the marker is down and stationary, the marker (in a sense) is the ball. You can't move it ... e.i., you can either move the ball, or the marker, but not both.

 

That said, I'm puzzled. I realize some markers have lines on them, but why would I use that as an alignment aid? A lot of balls themselves have lines on them (I play ProV1 - there's an alignment aid on it). And when they don't a lot of players just draw a line on the ball with a sharpie. 

 

Why would I want to align the marker with my putting line, and then align my ball with the marker, instead of just putting the marker down and aligning the ball itself with the putting line?

Edited September 10, 2021 by bobfoster

[antip]

3 hours ago, bobfoster said:

What most have said here is correct. Basic principle - either the ball is in play, or the marker. Before the marker is down, and after it is picked up, you can't move the ball. When the marker is down and stationary, the marker (in a sense) is the ball. You can't move it ... e.i., you can either move the ball, or the marker, but not both.

 

That said, I'm puzzled. I realize some markers have lines on them, but why would I use that as an alignment aid? A lot of balls themselves have lines on them (I play ProV1 - there's an alignment aid on it). And when they don't a lot of players just draw a line on the ball with a sharpie. 

 

Why would I want to align the marker with my putting line, and then align my ball with the marker, instead of just putting the marker down and aligning the ball itself with the putting line?

Two potential reasons. First is it creates a longer line that just that on the ball. Some find that makes it easier to "see" and configure to the line of play on the green. Second is that some of these ball markers can be placed stationary but have an internal part of the marker with the line adjustable, so this removes any requirement to lift to align.

 

 

[jordanrookie]

Welp…

 

“Worked with the USGA in as far as making sure it fit with the rules of golf.”
 

 

[clinkinfo]

On 4/9/2021 at 10:04 AM, phillyspecial said:

Thanks for the replies.  Best to assume rotating is in fact illegal then.  You would think a company selling these would say that on their site explicitly.  Would be very easy to get screwed in a club event using it the wrong way.  

I think their intent is for you to mark the ball with the alignment marker oriented on the putting line first, then pick up the ball and align your ball lines. (which honestly isn’t very helpful)

 

that said, there is a marker being sold that allows the top of the marker to rotate while the base stays on the ground. Don’t know if that’s ok or not.

Edited September 11, 2021 by clinkinfo

[Minarets]

On 9/11/2021 at 8:09 AM, jordanrookie said:

Welp…

 

“Worked with the USGA in as far as making sure it fit with the rules of golf.”
 

 

This seems similar to the dead aim ball marker. I just ordered one to try it out.   I’m not a line on the ball guy because i don’t see the line well over the ball.   When I address the ball mark and put the ball down, from that vantage point I don’t see the line.   I see the line much better from behind the golf ball looking down the intended path.  
 

 

when i have used a line on my ball in the past, I get my path from 10’ or so behind the ball (or marker) and when I get over the ball and line up my ball on that line and stand over it, I never feel comfortable that that is the same line I saw from 10’ behind.  
 

this dead aim tool is sort of the cure for that.   Or at least it’s trying to address that problem to feel comfortable with the line you saw.   

 

min arrives today so no clue if this is a fix for me, but im willing to give it a go.  
 

 

 

seems like the dead aim is a easier to see (with the prongs than the arrow from SC) but maybe not as refined as the SC mode.  
 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Minarets

[Halebopp]

1 hour ago, Minarets said:

This seems similar to the dead aim ball marker. I just ordered one to try it out.   I’m not a line on the ball guy because i don’t see the line well over the ball.   When I address the ball mark and put the ball down, from that vantage point I don’t see the line.   I see the line much better from behind the golf ball looking down the intended path.  
 

 

when i have used a line on my ball in the past, I get my path from 10’ or so behind the ball (or marker) and when I get over the ball and line up my ball on that line and stand over it, I never feel comfortable that that is the same line I saw from 10’ behind.  
 

this dead aim tool is sort of the cure for that.   Or at least it’s trying to address that problem to feel comfortable with the line you saw.   

 

min arrives today so no clue if this is a fix for me, but im willing to give it a go.  
 

 

 

seems like the dead aim is a easier to see (with the prongs than the arrow from SC) but maybe not as refined as the SC mode.  
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You have to give them credit when credit is due. Their marker doesn't require removing and replacing the ball and the ball-marker several times to get both of the lines right.

[Dpavs]

As Antip indicated, the rule that applies is 9.7(b)

 

9.7 Ball-Marker Lifted or Moved

This Rule covers what to do if a ball-marker that is marking the spot of a lifted ball is lifted or moved before the ball is replaced.

a. Ball or Ball-Marker Must Be Replaced

If a player’s ball-marker is lifted or moved in any way (including by natural forces) before the ball is replaced, the player must either:

• Replace the ball on its original spot (which if not known must be estimated) (see Rule 14.2), or

• Place a ball-marker to mark that original spot.

b. Penalty for Lifting Ball-Marker or Causing It to Move

If the player, or his or her opponent in match play, lifts the player’s ball-marker or causes it to move, (when the ball is lifted and not yet replaced), the player or opponent gets one penalty stroke.

 

Exception - Rule 9.4b and 9.5b Exceptions Apply to Lifting or Moving Ball-Marker or Causing It to Move: In all cases where the player or opponent gets no penalty for lifting the player’s ball or accidentally causing it to move, there is also no penalty for lifting or accidentally moving the player’s ball-marker.

 

I believe it's relevant to also that there is a difference between accidentally moving a marker and mistakenly moving it. To the best of my knowledge, accidental movements are not penalized, mistaken movements are.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Dpavs

[Shilgy]

On 4/9/2021 at 7:04 AM, phillyspecial said:

Thanks for the replies.  Best to assume rotating is in fact illegal then.  You would think a company selling these would say that on their site explicitly.  Would be very easy to get screwed in a club event using it the wrong way.  

You would think?  Maybe or be like this one that labels it as a ball marker and then claims it’s a training aid.🙄

 

https://www.bunkersparadise.com/40077/levelhead-ball-marker-review-balance-your-putting-game/

[Minarets]

33 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

You would think?  Maybe or be like this one that labels it as a ball marker and then claims it’s a training aid.🙄

 

https://www.bunkersparadise.com/40077/levelhead-ball-marker-review-balance-your-putting-game/

Hmm, this one makes less sense to me. I guess for a “new-to-golfer” but there is more to putting than the level of the green  only at the ball, no? 

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, Minarets said:

Hmm, this one makes less sense to me. I guess for a “new-to-golfer” but there is more to putting than the level of the green  only at the ball, no? 

Over every putt…walk along the approximate line…..”oops I dropped my marker”….”oh darn, did it again”.  Lol.

 

Or…just sell them to plumbobbers.  They are already just getting the level of the green at their ball.

[Mr. Bean]

I find the entire line issue somewhat bizarre due to inaccuracy of the procedure.

 

Let us take a 3 meter (appr 10 feet) putt. An error of one (1) degree means 5,2 cm (2,05 inches) at the hole, meaning you will miss the putt. Taking into account that it is impossible to align the line on a ball with accuracy of one degree the entire procedure is completely futile.

[Dpavs]

5 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

I find the entire line issue somewhat bizarre due to inaccuracy of the procedure.

 

Let us take a 3 meter (appr 10 feet) putt. An error of one (1) degree means 5,2 cm (2,05 inches) at the hole, meaning you will miss the putt. Taking into account that it is impossible to align the line on a ball with accuracy of one degree the entire procedure is completely futile.

 

Which is pretty much why even the pros average about 40% on putts from 10 feet away.

But I do tend to agree that the whole lines thing is waste of time or I guess at least it is for me.

 

[JonnyGib]

On 4/9/2021 at 3:04 PM, phillyspecial said:

Thanks for the replies.  Best to assume rotating is in fact illegal then.  You would think a company selling these would say that on their site explicitly.  Would be very easy to get screwed in a club event using it the wrong way.  

You should check out the Trident Align ball marker, rotates for adjustable aim without the ball needing to be placed in front of it. Approved by USGA and R&A for tournament play, might be more what you’re looking for.

 

I love mine.👌 I’m not great at attaching links but here’s the website. Hope it helps.

 

www.tridentalign.com

[JonnyGib]

Ok, worked it out!🙈

 

https://tridentalign.com/

[Mr. Bean]

So, you place the marker behind the ball, lift the ball and then align the marker WITHOUT the ball being in place. Far out...

[antip]

This puts a cat among our earlier discussion (April) pigeons.....

 

The USGA has issued a ruling advising a player gets no penalty for rotating (not moving to another position) a circular ball marker on the putting green even if the ball is lifted at the time. That is, that circular marker is not treated the same as the ball, which cannot be rotated on the putting green unless it is marked.