Trail elbow ‘leading’

[Bocaji]

I’m curious what instructors think of the concept described in this video. I’ve heard this before and I’m trying to get the action or feel of the right hand behind the right elbow. Is this actually what happens in the golf swing (when done correctly)? I feel like I end up the opposite and can never get it right.

 

Short question: is this videobgood or not?

[Zitlow]

Elbow leading and shaft flattening are reactions. 

[scooterhd2]

28 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

Elbow leading and shaft flattening are reactions. 

 

They are reactions, but if that is your intention, you might naturally do things in advance to make that reaction a possibility. 

[glk]

trail elbow leading is a "feel" to get one to put the trail  shoulder into external rotation.     never have seen the elbow actually get ahead of the hands - try it yourself in slow motion - if you are to do it then you have to crank the external rotation of the trail shoulder so much that the club gets into a pretty unplayable position - and folks that have done this as shallowing movement often have complained of hitting hosel rockests, thins, etc     if you get that elbow that tucked into your body the club head really shallows and get pretty far inside the hands and typically folks also end up dropping the trail shoulder too.       people who pull the shaft steep in transition would be candidates since often this involves keeping or getting the trail elbow  behind you or folks that do motorcycle pulls in the backswing.

 

that said best to get the right arm in a good position in the backswing to make this easier

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CJBiS3plrJs/

https://www.instagram.com/p/CMPhhw6FzPe/

[KMeloney]

Hogan demonstrated leading with the elbow in that late night TV show clip... But for the life of me I never understood exactly how he'd get from that chest-high, elbow-leading swing to getting the club down to the ball. 

[MonteScheinblum]

Considering the extremely high percentage of golfers that are late and/or internal with the shoulder and elbow, many have to do it on purpose to make it right.

 

It should be a reaction, but when you do it the opposite way, you have to do it on purpose. 
 

The one thing that always cracks me up is when people say these moves should be as natural as throwing a ball or walking.

 

Have you seen people throw and walk, it’s an injury waiting to happen for most.

 

 

[KD1]

32 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Have you seen people throw and walk, it’s an injury waiting to happen for most.

 

Can confirm. Doc told me to go for more walks and now my plantar fasciitis has flared up... Don't recommend it. lol

[scooterhd2]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

The one thing that always cracks me up is when people say these moves should be as natural as throwing a ball or walking.

 

Have you seen people throw and walk, it’s an injury waiting to happen for most.

 

 

 

We are probably about as good of golfers as we are throwers, we just overrate the latter. I don't think theres that many weekend warriors than can throw an 85mph fastball over the plate on command. But we judge it on being able to throw a football on a wide open street to our buddy while forgetting about all the throws we had to apologize for throwing it over his head or short enough to bounce up into him. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

22 minutes ago, scooterhd2 said:

 

We are probably about as good of golfers as we are throwers, we just overrate the latter. I don't think theres that many weekend warriors than can throw an 85mph fastball over the plate on command. But we judge it on being able to throw a football on a wide open street to our buddy while forgetting about all the throws we had to apologize for throwing it over his head or short enough to bounce up into him. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I once asked a D1 college pitching coach, how many incoming freshman have good mechanics.  He’s said the next one will be the first.

 

I have asked multiple PT’s how people walk, they all laugh and say almost the exact same thing…..“There’s a reason orthopedic surgeons are in business and it’s not from sports injuries.”

 

So when people say a golf swing should have no thoughts and be natural like walking and throwing……and move X should be automatic……

 

This is a bit mean spirited, but many golfwrx posters who talk about moves being natural and automatic that I have debated with…their “friends” have emailed me their swings.  Their swings don’t support their position….lol.

[Bocaji]

14 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I once asked a D1 college pitching coach, how many incoming freshman have good mechanics.  He’s said the next one will be the first.

 

I have asked multiple PT’s how people walk, they all laugh and say almost the exact same thing…..“There’s a reason orthopedic surgeons are in business and it’s not from sports injuries.”

 

So when people say a golf swing should have no thoughts and be natural like walking and throwing……and move X should be automatic……

 

This is a bit mean spirited, but many golfwrx posters who talk about moves being natural and automatic that I have debated with…their “friends” have emailed me their swings.  Their swings don’t support their position….lol.

So in other words, one should first learn how to walk properly before trying to play golf? I don’t think anyone has the patience for that lol

[scooterhd2]

8 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

So when people say a golf swing should have no thoughts and be natural like walking and throwing……and move X should be automatic……

 

This is a bit mean spirited, but many golfwrx posters who talk about moves being natural and automatic that I have debated with…their “friends” have emailed me their swings.  Their swings don’t support their position….lol.

 

Its not mean.  If they were truly natural and automatic, their swings would support their families much less their position. Yet even tour pros need coaching and constant refinement. 

 

I'm not winning the next US Open, just like I'm not winning gold in the next Olympic Speed Walking race. I havent found myself to be naturally more gifted then my peers at either. Took me a year to learn how to walk and for some reason I am pretty good at tripping while going up stairs. My golf game has gotten alot better recently with study, practice, and coaching, and I mostly credit that to learning how to do things that counter my natural motion or intuition. NTC being part of that process, which upon discovery felt like a counter move to what felt right to me. And this coming from a 3 sport athlete in HS. 

[Zitlow]

5 hours ago, scooterhd2 said:

 

They are reactions, but if that is your intention, you might naturally do things in advance to make that reaction a possibility. 

 

I can see that. What makes me cringe a little is when a coach makes a "swing doctrine" out of right elbow to target to start the downswing. 

[Bocaji]

On 6/23/2021 at 4:01 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

Considering the extremely high percentage of golfers that are late and/or internal with the shoulder and elbow, many have to do it on purpose to make it right.

 

It should be a reaction, but when you do it the opposite way, you have to do it on purpose. 
 

The one thing that always cracks me up is when people say these moves should be as natural as throwing a ball or walking.

 

Have you seen people throw and walk, it’s an injury waiting to happen for most.

 

 

I spend a lot of time looking at videos of my past ‘swing’. And in them, I’ve found myself in that internal shoulder position, hence my curiosity of this concept. It’s a position that just looks incredibly stuck and no idea how I was ever able to hit a ball, albeit I was lacking a lot of distance anyway. Been working on drills with no club that work on establishing that external shoulder position which appears to not be natural to me

[golfarb1]

The head of the humerus ( upper arm bone) 

articulates with the scapula to form the GH or shoulder joint . The other end of the humerus  along with the ulna and radius bones of the lower arm forms the elbow joint  . Thus any shoulder movement involving the humerus within the GH MUST also move the elbow in a similar direction . Movement of the right  elbow  can be thought of a marker for internal and external rotation  and adduction of the right shoulder . During transition the right elbow moves both towards the body( right shoulder adduction AND towards the target line ( right shoulder external rotation) . Too much adduction is a common mistake that results in the right shoulder moving noticeably lower far too early. So to that extent the original video is a good idea for golfers
 

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by golfarb1

[Hacker9]

Why does doing this and shallowing out shift my low point way back? It’s visually better until contact but lots of chunks and s***ks.

[MonteScheinblum]

7 hours ago, Hacker9 said:

Why does doing this and shallowing out shift my low point way back? It’s visually better until contact but lots of chunks and s***ks.

Likely dropping rear shoulder.  Have to do it while staying in left tilt….not easy.

[glk]

7 hours ago, Hacker9 said:

Why does doing this and shallowing out shift my low point way back? It’s visually better until contact but lots of chunks and s***ks.

major factors in low point are 3D position of sternum (how much rotation, how much side bend, how much forward movement ) and timing of arms (shoulders,elbows,wrists) extending.     Arms in a swing want to extend in front of sternum.      Shallowing or being steep isn't a big factor in low point but the pitch of the club can certainly influence the ability to get the sternum in a good position (pointing down and out past the ball depending on the club) and the ability to time the extending of the arms after impact.      That said, shallowing the shaft needs to be matched up with a blend of other shallowing and steepening movements - if one shallows the shaft but early extends this stalls rotation and increases distance sternum is front ball requiring the trail arm to extend to reach the ball which means the sternum is likely to be pointing at the ball not beyond it and arms will extend before or just at impact resulting is little shaft lean and a fat/thin shot  or if not fat/thin then dynamic loft will not be reduced much (little shaft lean) and high shots, etc.

 

what combo you are doing would have to be seen to be more specific.    Not unusual for a person that is steep with the shaft in the downswing to EE and so when first learning to shallow the shaft, the match up is off - the brain still wants to shallow by EE and extending the trail arm early but now the shaft has already been shallowed so sternum still in old position but now club head coming in more shallow.    Also shallowing opens the face which is another factor in how the brain reacts to accomplish impact - without using the wrists to early close the face when shallowing then the open face is another factor in the timing of the arms thru impact.   whew.

[N0rs3man]

On 6/25/2021 at 11:34 PM, Hacker9 said:

Why does doing this and shallowing out shift my low point way back? It’s visually better until contact but lots of chunks and s***ks.

Its very easy to get too behind the ball at address doing this. You will kind of work around and behind at address to put more emphasis on leading with elbow or what your body feels as throwing a ball. You must reset your stance/address position back over the ball instead of "behind" it. I put behind in quotes bc sometimes its almost a mental thing, as well.

[PJ72]

I'm a few months late to this topic.

 

To get the lead elbow to lead the down swing, is it simply practicing it relentlessly until you get it? 

 

It's been a while since I watched Fred couples transition, but I think his trail elbow moves a huge distance,  which puts the club from across the line to nicely in the slot instantly. I think it's the key to his swing.

[Forged4life]

On 6/23/2021 at 4:01 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

Considering the extremely high percentage of golfers that are late and/or internal with the shoulder and elbow, many have to do it on purpose to make it right.

 

It should be a reaction, but when you do it the opposite way, you have to do it on purpose. 
 

The one thing that always cracks me up is when people say these moves should be as natural as throwing a ball or walking.

 

Have you seen people throw and walk, it’s an injury waiting to happen for most.

 

 

Plus most people don’t skip a rock or throw a frisbee with both hands. That’s where my brain goes, ”huh?”

[MPStrat]

 

[MPStrat]

16 minutes ago, PJ72 said:

I'm a few months late to this topic.

 

To get the lead elbow to lead the down swing, is it simply practicing it relentlessly until you get it? 

No and you can shred your rotator cuff trying 

[MPStrat]

 

[aggiegolfer21]

You want the trail elbow leading the club if your trail shoulder is flexible enough to allow this to happen.  If it's not, you will have to excessively tilt to get the elbow in this position leading to a lot of other problems.  If you are not flexible enough to get your trail arm in front of the club, then you need to ensure that your hands stay in front of the club using your wrist hinge.