Pros and Cons of Driver Loft Options

[ylwdogsc]

Currently shopping for a new driver.  In a TM M6 10.5 that is turned down -.75 normally, sometimes -1.5.  Since I'm lowering the loft, would it be better to go with a 9.0?  I'm looking for a little more draw bias and thought this would close it a little since the loft will increase (most likely only .75, which closes the face 1.5)

 

Or, am I over thinking too little of a difference?

Edited July 22, 2021 by ylwdogsc

[cgasucks]

[ylwdogsc]

6 minutes ago, cgasucks said:

 

So, spin could potentially decrease going with the 9 and increasing the loft.  Good to know.

[cgasucks]

Just now, ylwdogsc said:

 

So, spin could potentially decrease going with the 9 and increasing the loft.  Good to know.

 

You don't get it.  If you want the longest carry, this chart will tell you based on your ball speed and angle of attack and will tell your your ideal dynamic launch angle and spin.  You will have to fiddle with your driver to get those numbers from a launch monitor. 

[ylwdogsc]

9 minutes ago, cgasucks said:

 

You don't get it.  If you want the longest carry, this chart will tell you based on your ball speed and angle of attack and will tell your your ideal dynamic launch angle and spin.  You will have to fiddle with your driver to get those numbers from a launch monitor. 

 

Thanks.

[ChipNRun]

General rule for long-club adjustments: Lowering loft opens the clubface angle, increasing the loft closes the clubface angle. If you went with 9.0* and increased loft, this would close clubface angle. But other factors come into play on draw vs. fade bias.

 

In an earlier driver I had, face angle and loft could be set separately. My shot shape was a draw, but I played the clubface 1* open: this prevented a draw from turning into an occasional hook.

 

Charts and launch monitor get you a start, but final test is how well new settings work on the first few rounds you play.

[MountainKing]

45 minutes ago, ylwdogsc said:

Currently shopping for a new driver.  In a TM M6 10.5 that is turned down -.75 normally, sometimes -1.5.  Since I'm lowering the loft, would it be better to go with a 9.0?  I'm looking for a little more draw bias and thought this would close it a little since the loft will increase (most likely only .75, which closes the face 1.5)

 

Or, am I over thinking too little of a difference?

 

If you want a quick answer I would highly suggest finding a local fitter and go through a driver fitting.   Once you get your numbers it'll be a little easier to dial it in, outside of that you're doing trial and error which can be expensive and time consuming.   

 

With that, if you are looking for draw bias while keeping the loft around 10.5, buying a head with the lower left and turning the loft up will get you that on paper.  

 

[Stuart_G]

2 hours ago, ylwdogsc said:

Or, am I over thinking too little of a difference?

 

Not at all.  It's a good thought.  Face angle can be an important consideration for some, but not for everyone.  So the only way to find out for sure is to actually try and compare the options - and see if it actually will help the way you want it to.  Everyone's a bit different in what they might see.

 

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

3 hours ago, ylwdogsc said:

Currently shopping for a new driver.  In a TM M6 10.5 that is turned down -.75 normally, sometimes -1.5.  Since I'm lowering the loft, would it be better to go with a 9.0?  I'm looking for a little more draw bias and thought this would close it a little since the loft will increase (most likely only .75, which closes the face 1.5)

 

Or, am I over thinking too little of a difference?

if you take a 10.5 head and "low" adjust you will possibly lose the ball more off to the right ((players who set up their drivers this way do not want to hook it)).

 

if you take a 9.0 and "high" adjust you might find more draw correction out of it ((but it's not a guarantee, because a 9.0 loft is more difficult to launch and spin)).

 

just going on loft choice, a 10.5 to 9.0 switch will definitely complicate things, because 9.0 calls out for you to hit it more consistently, a 9.0 loft is quite a bit more unforgiving by nature.

 

 

 

[tsecor]

Go get a TSi4, turn it down to 9 degrees and go hot bombs!!   nuff said.....ignore all the nuances and microscopic details of all these charts

 

go hit bombs....

 

dont overthink all of it

[phizzy30]

Just remember that by opening or closing the face will most likely affect your dispersion as well.  I have always played an open faced driver that is 1 to 2* open so the chances of hitting that nasty duck hook reduce.  I have very active hands. 

[RobS]

Many current drivers have open face angles in the neutral position.  Given that lofting down opens the face, you could end up club that's extremely hard to draw.  Clay Long, prominent club designer for decades, took weight, CG, CT and face angle measurements measurements of current Ping, TM, Cobra, Callaway and Titleist driver heads.  All measured open, some as much as 5*or 6*.  It was single sample size from each manufacturer but with all heads measuring open, I don't think the general trend of open FA's. was a fluke.  To my eye, almost every driver I pick up in the store today looks open so I was not surprised to see Long's findings. I'd start with a lower loft and move up as needed.  I was fit for a driver at Sea Island in early 2020 and the fitter suggested that I'd likely need to start with a lower lofted head and loft up if I wanted a neutral face angle in the Ping and TM drivers I was trying to make a final decision on.

[North Butte]

9 minutes ago, RobS said:

Many current drivers have open face angles in the neutral position.  Given that lofting down opens the face, you could end up club that's extremely hard to draw.  Clay Long, prominent club designer for decades, took weight, CG, CT and face angle measurements measurements of current Ping, TM, Cobra, Callaway and Titleist driver heads.  All measured open, some as much as 5*or 6*.  It was single sample size from each manufacturer but with all heads measuring open, I don't think the general trend of open FA's. was a fluke.  To my eye, almost every driver I pick up in the store today looks open so I was not surprised to see Long's findings. I'd start with a lower loft and move up as needed.  I was fit for a driver at Sea Island in early 2020 and the fitter suggested that I'd likely need to start with a lower lofted head and loft up if I wanted a neutral face angle in the Ping and TM drivers I was trying to make a final decision on.

When he says a certain driver has a face angle of "5 degrees open" what reference line is that relative to? 

 

Is he saying that a 10.5 degree driver set to the 10.5 setting will present 10.5 degrees of static loft when the face angle is 5 degrees open?

 

Because I find that hard to believe. In that case, when the golfer squares the face at at address it would be presenting a loft of somewhere around 7-8 degrees, right? 

 

Or are we talking about the face angle when the driver is just plopped down on a flat plate without a golfer aiming it anywhere in particular? That's a characteristic of the sole shaping, not of the driver in actual address position. 

[RobS]

7 minutes ago, North Butte said:

When he says a certain driver has a face angle of "5 degrees open" what reference line is that relative to? 

 

Is he saying that a 10.5 degree driver set to the 10.5 setting will present 10.5 degrees of static loft when the face angle is 5 degrees open?

 

Because I find that hard to believe. In that case, when the golfer squares the face at at address it would be presenting a loft of somewhere around 7-8 degrees, right? 

 

Or are we talking about the face angle when the driver is just plopped down on a flat plate without a golfer aiming it anywhere in particular? That's a characteristic of the sole shaping, not of the driver in actual address position. 

Long used the "green gauge" commonly referred to as the "green machine" which is pretty much the industry standard for the OEM's and casting houses.  With Long's engineering background and 40 years in club design (MacGregor, Titleist, Cobra, TM)  I have faith in his measurements.  His instagram page, claylongdesign has a lot of detailed information on the driver measurements as well as explanations. Outside of the drivers, he shares a lot of great details from his work with Nicklaus and Norman up to his more recent work with guys like Rose and Woodland.

[Stuart_G]

12 hours ago, North Butte said:

When he says a certain driver has a face angle of "5 degrees open" what reference line is that relative to? 

 

Face angle is always measured from a line that's perpendicular to the horizontal shaft orientation line.

 

Quote

Because I find that hard to believe. In that case, when the golfer squares the face at at address it would be presenting a loft of somewhere around 7-8 degrees, right? 

 

5* open would translate to the loft getting stronger by 2.7* when squared.

 

But he said that 5* the extreme, not the norm or average.  I suspect 1-3* open is much more typical for the open faced models.

 

 

Quote

Or are we talking about the face angle when the driver is just plopped down on a flat plate without a golfer aiming it anywhere in particular?

 

Correct, the face angle is always measured from the naturally soled position of the head.

Edited July 24, 2021 by Stuart_G

[RobS]

Long’s measurements: Stated loft/Measured Loft/Measured Face Angle. All FA measurements below are open. 
 

410Lst 9/11/3

425Lst 9/10/6

425Max 9/8.5/4.5

Radspeed 9/10/5

Speedzone 9/8.5/6

Epic Max 10.5/13/3.5

Max LS 9/9/2

Speed 9/10.5/3

Sim 10.5/12/2.5

Sim2 10.5/12/4

Sim2 Max 10.5/12/0

M2 9.5/10.5/0.5

TSi3 10/11.5/2

[Stuart_G]

5 hours ago, RobS said:

Long’s measurements: Stated loft/Measured Loft/Measured Face Angle. All FA measurements below are open. 

 

Was it the static or effective loft that was measured?

[RobS]

Measured at square. 

[mogc60]

Long’s measurements don’t surprise me at all. Many of the new drivers look like an open sand wedge to me and I really don’t like that look. My ball flight is relatively straight so I prefer a square driver.