Dr Kwon

[Nels55]

1 hour ago, Duffer Mark said:

If I am pushing ground with my trail foot in the back swing, as Dr. Kwon teaches, isn't that going to straighten my leg?

Yes the trail side push or kick is fairly early in the backswing should straighten the knee quite a bit but it is a fluid motion so the knee should not lock.  This upward movement is followed by the downward unweighting movement where I believe that the knee will bend a bit.  This chart shows the sequence of pressure:

 

The fact that the lead leg provides the highest output of force is interesting to me and something that needs attention in my swing.  I know that when I focus on getting that kick movement of the lead leg I tend to hit better shots.  Of course getting there requires that a lot of previous stuff is done more or less correctly.  LOL I feel like my swing is a game of whack a mole, fix one thing and the previous problem pops back up...  Slowly making progress though.  Maybe by the time I croak I will have a great golf swing!

[munchies2x]

12 hours ago, Duffer Mark said:

If I am pushing ground with my trail foot in the back swing, as Dr. Kwon teaches, isn't that going to straighten my leg?

Look at the post from Nels55 just 2 post before yours, the force "F" is not aiming straight up, you have to push up and to the right (about 60 degree of push). Pushing straight up is not what the diagram showing.

 

 

[RobertBaron]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t it physically impossible to trail side force go straight up if both feet are still touching the ground?

[munchies2x]

5 minutes ago, RobertBaron said:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t it physically impossible to trail side force go straight up if both feet are still touching the ground?

On the back swing? See the slide here, and he is suggesting that you need to push the ground down/outward... i.e. push outward to the right (assuming right handed golfer) during back swing, to produce a counter force to the left. Remember the interaction with the ground will always give you an opposing force. The shape of of the force will depend on the ratio between horizontal and vertical force.

 

And if my interpretation is correct (still a learner here), this will determine the moment arm and the torque generated from the swing.

[glk]

the direction of the force applied by the feet is continously changing magnitude and direction - vertically, horizontal, and rotational -  for example, to rotate in bakswing one is pushing with the lead foot away from the target line and trail foot toward the target line - and the reverse in the downswing - so these force not only point up, but also toward the target line, away from target line, toward target,away from target.

 

Here is a webinar from Scott Lynn - at the 16:45 he has an animation of Kevin Chappell from both dtl and fo with the force arrows (not 3d but at least you can see how these forces change dynamically.    I highly recommend watching the entire video , too.

 

 

[PracticeSwinger]

22 hours ago, zacgolf said:

 

 

Loved the part where he explains the importance of the 'active' / fast backswing for a better sequencing - the 'need' for the body to shift to the lead side and 'stop you' because you initiate a 'demand' for it with an active backswing and recentering (coming from the trail side GRF)... hits a point about doing it unconsiously, as a reaction to previous good moves...

 

And I think it's an important misconception that people have, thinking that a slow 'controlled' backswing will put them in good positions getting to the top and then they can fire actively, forcefully during the downswing... while its the opposite (conterintuitive) that happens - the active backswing setting you up for a patient, smooth transition... and 'let it go!'

 

(connecting the dots to what Monte has been hammering here all along - if I got his message correctly)

[me05501]

1 minute ago, MtlJayMan said:

 

Loved the part where he explains the importance of the 'active' / fast backswing for a better sequencing - the 'need' for the body to shift to the lead side and 'stop you' because you initiate a 'demand' for it with an active backswing and recentering (coming from the trail side GRF)... hits a point about doing it unconsiously, as a reaction to previous good moves...

 

And I think it's an important misconception that people have, thinking that a slow 'controlled' backswing will put them in good positions getting to the top and then they can fire actively, forcefully during the downswing... while its the opposite (conterintuitive) that happens - the active backswing setting you up for a patient, smooth transition... and 'let it go!'

 

(connecting the dots to what Monte has been hammering here all along - if I got his message correctly)

 

Agree. I think it will take a generation to collectively unlearn our poor understanding of swing dynamics based on position-based instruction. 

 

I guess if you're a publisher of books or magazines you're always looking for ways to explain things using words or static pictures. It's super helpful to have video, not to mention high-speed cameras, motion capture tech and pressure plates.

 

All these tools have proven that positions are the result of proper movement. 

 

[PracticeSwinger]

3 minutes ago, Chainlinks said:

I don’t know any good golfer who thinks a deliberate slow backswing is ideal, who taught that?

I wasn't thinking about teaching pros... just a general misconception that amateurs can have - wanting to hit certain positions ('alright, I don't want to suck it in during the takeaway, let's go slow and stay the course') and the 'easiest' way go get to those positions is to get there deliberately - not seeing how it hinders the complete swing doing so (with the general misconception that there are two distinct swings; back and down)

[leekgolf]

On learning to adopt this. 

 

I worked on the drills 4 days this week, then followed it with ranges sessions the last two days. My ball striking was definitely improving. I had a much better low point, past the ball. Taking a cue from @Nels55, I took videos of myself performing the drills. I saw some really surprising things. The first was when just doing the lower body drills, driving the target side leg down into the ground, then ( I can't think of the word 🙂 ) rear leg or side away from the target side (for a righty, the right leg), then letting my weight recenter, and then driving my target side leg down into the ground, I found then watching the video, there was a pretty pronounced hip turn both ways. It felt as if my hips weren't turning at all. Watching the Stage 1 and Stage 2 drills, I was surprised to see while on Stage one, I made a pretty pronounced step to begin the takeaway, my step towards the target at P3ish was very small. 

 

My swing became much more reactive and possible more athletic, in fact, part of my practice routine includes working on learning to control where the ball makes contact on the face. Heel, then toe, then center. Then I work on low point using a towel behind the ball and working to hit the ball and miss the towel while also taking a shallow divot. Finally, I work on hitting shots with an open and then a closed club face at impact, then trying to hit the ball with a square face at impact.

 

After doing the drills, then working on incorporating the movements into my swing and then hitting balls, I found:

 

It was much harder to control ball-face contact. It was damn hard to hit the toe and almost impossible for me to hit the heel( my normal miss is towards the toe). Without actually being able to control low point, I hit twenty 7 irons in a row with the towel in place behind the ball and never touched the towel, hitting every ball reasonably well. Somehow, I was able to manipulate the club face to get it open, closed or square pretty consistently.  This portion is actually a larger amount of time, than any of the swing drills, or swing work I do when I practice. 

 

If anyone has any questions on this part, I'll be happy to explain my thinking and the effect on my game.

 

So of course today I played. On the first 6-8 holes, my club ball contact was much like the last few days on the range. I did miss a few directionally by pushing or pulling the ball some, but club ball contact and distance control were better than I'm accustomed to seeing. Then it all just vanished! I began hitting fat shots and thin shots, rarely making what I'd call solid contact. I'm not sure, I think it's possible my legs quit driving my swing, and my weight may not have been falling to the target side early enough. I'm not sure. It was possibly just my old pattern coming back. 

 

I'll get back on the range tomorrow, and work on this more. It has been very encouraging up till now.

 

 

[glk]

1 hour ago, leekgolf said:

On learning to adopt this. 

 

I worked on the drills 4 days this week, then followed it with ranges sessions the last two days. My ball striking was definitely improving. I had a much better low point, past the ball. Taking a cue from @Nels55, I took videos of myself performing the drills. I saw some really surprising things. The first was when just doing the lower body drills, driving the target side leg down into the ground, then ( I can't think of the word 🙂 ) rear leg or side away from the target side (for a righty, the right leg), then letting my weight recenter, and then driving my target side leg down into the ground, I found then watching the video, there was a pretty pronounced hip turn both ways. It felt as if my hips weren't turning at all. Watching the Stage 1 and Stage 2 drills, I was surprised to see while on Stage one, I made a pretty pronounced step to begin the takeaway, my step towards the target at P3ish was very small. 

 

My swing became much more reactive and possible more athletic, in fact, part of my practice routine includes working on learning to control where the ball makes contact on the face. Heel, then toe, then center. Then I work on low point using a towel behind the ball and working to hit the ball and miss the towel while also taking a shallow divot. Finally, I work on hitting shots with an open and then a closed club face at impact, then trying to hit the ball with a square face at impact.

 

After doing the drills, then working on incorporating the movements into my swing and then hitting balls, I found:

 

It was much harder to control ball-face contact. It was damn hard to hit the toe and almost impossible for me to hit the heel( my normal miss is towards the toe). Without actually being able to control low point, I hit twenty 7 irons in a row with the towel in place behind the ball and never touched the towel, hitting every ball reasonably well. Somehow, I was able to manipulate the club face to get it open, closed or square pretty consistently.  This portion is actually a larger amount of time, than any of the swing drills, or swing work I do when I practice. 

 

If anyone has any questions on this part, I'll be happy to explain my thinking and the effect on my game.

 

So of course today I played. On the first 6-8 holes, my club ball contact was much like the last few days on the range. I did miss a few directionally by pushing or pulling the ball some, but club ball contact and distance control were better than I'm accustomed to seeing. Then it all just vanished! I began hitting fat shots and thin shots, rarely making what I'd call solid contact. I'm not sure, I think it's possible my legs quit driving my swing, and my weight may not have been falling to the target side early enough. I'm not sure. It was possibly just my old pattern coming back. 

 

I'll get back on the range tomorrow, and work on this more. It has been very encouraging up till now.

 

 

Do all the drills.   Weight swing.  Rope swing.  Steps.   Band pull.   Haream dance

thise drills are way more important than hitting balls at the range in the early stages.

 

measure your pattern change in months.  

 

and feel the rhythm.   https://www.instagram.com/p/CIBCS3_F06R/

 

 

 

[Nels55]

On 2/25/2022 at 2:46 AM, glk said:

the direction of the force applied by the feet is continously changing magnitude and direction - vertically, horizontal, and rotational -  for example, to rotate in bakswing one is pushing with the lead foot away from the target line and trail foot toward the target line - and the reverse in the downswing - so these force not only point up, but also toward the target line, away from target line, toward target,away from target.

 

Here is a webinar from Scott Lynn - at the 16:45 he has an animation of Kevin Chappell from both dtl and fo with the force arrows (not 3d but at least you can see how these forces change dynamically.    I highly recommend watching the entire video , too.

 

 

Interesting.  He mentions that some players use more torque or I would say rotary ground force and some use more vertical.  I wonder if that is natural or if it is learned?  He talks about teachers back when he was young holding on to students legs to stop them from jumping and mentions that it is good that Justin Thomas' dad did not do that.  I wonder if JT would have been just as good if he had been trained to use more horizontal ground force instead of vertical?  It seems to be a question of nature vs. nurture...

 

 

[ThinkingPlus]

17 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

Interesting.  He mentions that some players use more torque or I would say rotary ground force and some use more vertical.  I wonder if that is natural or if it is learned?  He talks about teachers back when he was young holding on to students legs to stop them from jumping and mentions that it is good that Justin Thomas' dad did not do that.  I wonder if JT would have been just as good if he had been trained to use more horizontal ground force instead of vertical?  It seems to be a question of nature vs. nurture...

 

 

I would guess that lighter players will tend toward using vertical ground force more than horizontal torque.  Horizontal torque needs mass to get good connection to the ground to prevent slipping.  Also you will tend to see more modern players favor vertical ground force because most are wearing soft spikes which provide less effective coefficient of friction with the ground than old school nails.  My opinion.

[glk]

34 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

Interesting.  He mentions that some players use more torque or I would say rotary ground force and some use more vertical.  I wonder if that is natural or if it is learned?  He talks about teachers back when he was young holding on to students legs to stop them from jumping and mentions that it is good that Justin Thomas' dad did not do that.  I wonder if JT would have been just as good if he had been trained to use more horizontal ground force instead of vertical?  It seems to be a question of nature vs. nurture...

 

 

Every player has their own pattern of using the three forces.   Typically tour players have one maybe two that are dominate.   Long drive guys have all three  way above tour average.       This is something you can’t really do - work on specific forces without  a force plate.  Gary woodland dominate force is torque, chuckie three sticks was horizontal, spieth vertical.   Changing can lead to improvement or getting worse.
 

scott has been on be better golf a lot since he is right there in la.  He also works with Dana d and Dana long drive guys.   Check ‘‘em out. 
 
 

[Nels55]

29 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I would guess that lighter players will tend toward using vertical ground force more than horizontal torque.  Horizontal torque needs mass to get good connection to the ground to prevent slipping.  Also you will tend to see more modern players favor vertical ground force because most are wearing soft spikes which provide less effective coefficient of friction with the ground than old school nails.  My opinion.

Makes sense.  I played basketball with some hefty guys back in the day and they seemed to play pretty close to the ground...

[me05501]

The interesting part of my experience with this method has been that contact and directional control improve dramatically and somewhat automatically (assuming my setup is sound). Not only are the movement patterns simpler and faster, but they seem to make it easier to launch the ball straight. 
 

I had a revelation this week about making a better turn and how it fits in with the recentering move.
 

An image my pro has used with me is to focus on turning my ribcage rather than my hips or the shoulders. I’m not sure why this works for me. I think it probably has to do with ignoring the proportions of hip and shoulder turn and letting those react naturally to the idea of turning the ribcage.

 

Making a bigger turn away seems to let the recentering move happen in a more natural way. I guess getting my back to the target makes it easier to *keep* my back to ward the target. Likely I wasn’t really getting there before. 
 

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by me05501

[crucible]

I have to be the one to ask this but, does any of this that Dr. Kwon is teaching have any relevance to the short game such as pitching , finesse and distance wedge play?

[RobertBaron]

10 minutes ago, crucible said:

I have to be the one to ask this but, does any of this that Dr. Kwon is teaching have any relevance to the short game such as pitching , finesse and distance wedge play?

For me at least, an emphatic yes. 
 

The biggest revelation or feel for me was the mature backswing concept or how I interpret it, a “backing in” to impact. Incorporating that into shorter shots along with the body driven rhythm has really improved all facets of the short game. 
 

For pitching and wedge play I try to keep the same rhythm but really slow it all down to hit it shorter. 

For chipping, because there’s not much swing and not much time for recentering, I essentially feel like I back into impact right from the start. 
 

It’s the best I’ve ever pitched or chipped. 

 

[ezra76]

On 2/25/2022 at 11:22 AM, Chainlinks said:

I don’t know any good golfer who thinks a deliberate slow backswing is ideal, who taught that?

 

This seems to work well

[Golfbeat]

8 minutes ago, ezra76 said:

 

This seems to work well

 

I think the pause at the top is more relevant.

[MK7Golf21]

11 minutes ago, Golfbeat said:

 

I think the pause at the top is more relevant.

 

That is from working on pause at the top drills more than likely. I did a bunch of them years ago and they crept into my full swing, don't recommend it.

[ezra76]

Clement has a lot of great stuff but god dang he's got a big old inside and lift it up move. 

 

[Duffer Mark]

I probably need to practice the drills more often for longer periods. The problem I seem to have is translating the movement from the rope swing or rhythmic turning, for example, into actually hitting the ball, especially, with the driver. 
 

I've been taking lessons at a local PGA Superstore and have not really made much progress. When I really concentrate on pushing down and outward with my legs as she had me do gave me the best ball striking. But trying to maintain the flex in my trail leg is not helping me. 
 

As I’ve been rebuilding my swing, I really want to use my lower body more which is how I initially found Kwan. Anyway, it’s a frustrating journey. 

[ezra76]

39 minutes ago, Duffer Mark said:

I probably need to practice the drills more often for longer periods. The problem I seem to have is translating the movement from the rope swing or rhythmic turning, for example, into actually hitting the ball, especially, with the driver. 
 

I've been taking lessons at a local PGA Superstore and have not really made much progress. When I really concentrate on pushing down and outward with my legs as she had me do gave me the best ball striking. But trying to maintain the flex in my trail leg is not helping me. 
 

As I’ve been rebuilding my swing, I really want to use my lower body more which is how I initially found Kwan. Anyway, it’s a frustrating journey. 

It gets to be information overload and I feel like sometimes I'm working on step 5 when I haven't even gotten step 1 down. I'm going to be honest, I liked the initial Dr. Kwon stuff but as I got more into it, not the stuff I need to be working on or thinking about right now. I've seen conflicting information that says straighten the rear leg and keeping it bent is a killer. The straight leg works for me so staying with that one. 

 

I'd recommend something similar to what I've been doing. Find a place to go hit 90yd .pitching wedge shots out of the dirt and groove your swing on those, not blasting drivers on the range. I checked SS today at golf galaxy and was at exactly 100 warmed up using what felt basically like my PW swing. Happy with that as I was at 96 2 months ago and way less accurate. 

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by ezra76

[Duffer Mark]

I’m trying to get the shift during the backswing but fear I’m moving too far forward before and during the downswing. 

[glk]

4 hours ago, crucible said:

I have to be the one to ask this but, does any of this that Dr. Kwon is teaching have any relevance to the short game such as pitching , finesse and distance wedge play?

No.  Those swings have different intents and different motions.  Accuracy versus power.

[glk]

28 minutes ago, Duffer Mark said:

I’m trying to get the shift during the backswing but fear I’m moving too far forward before and during the downswing. 

First good work on getting more centered versus shifting your head etc to the right.

 

id look at your knees.  Left needs to work more out toward toes and less inward.  Right looks to straighten too much - it loses some flex but not all.  

watch the knees

here is monte   https://www.instagram.com/p/CVdduDuj3hn/

https://www.instagram.com/p/CVVcOTtFIkf/

https://www.instagram.com/p/BrBiHCqlCkz/

 

when I first started down this path about 2 years ago, I too would overdo the shift left.   takes time.   I redid my swing years ago but it took me 2.5 years to have a significant improvement - 1% better every day then one day it all feel in place. - gained 30 yards off the tee , dropped from a 5 to a 2 without any big change in putting or short game.   progress in making golf changes is measured in months.   Patience.    You made one big change already.  Some folks wouldn’t even have done that in the time you did.

Edited February 27, 2022 by glk

[leekgolf]

On 2/25/2022 at 6:44 PM, glk said:

Do all the drills.   Weight swing.  Rope swing.  Steps.   Band pull.   Haream dance

thise drills are way more important than hitting balls at the range in the early stages.

 

measure your pattern change in months.  

 

and feel the rhythm.   https://www.instagram.com/p/CIBCS3_F06R/

 

 

 

Aw @glkyou know I gotta hit balls! 🙂

[Nels55]

50 minutes ago, leekgolf said:

Aw @glkyou know I gotta hit balls! 🙂

Same here.  Definitely a problem!

[Hilts1969]

14 hours ago, Duffer Mark said:

I’m trying to get the shift during the backswing but fear I’m moving too far forward before and during the downswing. 

FullSizeRender.MOV 20.9 MB · 0 downloads

 

Play the ball(in this case the tee) further forward to start with. Secondly stand in front of the mirror pause at the top and as you are looking at the ball over the left shoulder do these two things

 

1) when shifting left keep the left shoulder glued to your chin see how far forward your head moves, this is what you currently do.

 

2) when shifting left separate the left shoulder from the chin downwards, back still closed. Notice your are still shifting laterally, back is still closed but the head moves only a small amount forward.

 

I do/did the exact thing you do. The sooner you get out of that the better. 

Edited February 27, 2022 by Hilts1969

[glk]

3 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

Play the ball(in this case the tee) further forward to start with. Secondly stand in front of the mirror pause at the top and as you are looking at the ball over the left shoulder do these two these

 

1) when shifting left keep the left shoulder glued to your chin see how far forward your head moves, this is what you currently do.

 

2) when shifting left separate the left shoulder from the chin downwards, back still closed. Notice your are still shifting laterally, back is still closed but the head moves only a small amount forward.

 

I do/did the exact thing you do. The sooner you get out of that the better. 

 

Know also as Justin Rose drill.    Monte has some instagrams on similar note.    As does AMG.    Arms can work independently of  shoulders rotating with torso.    Also leads into the intent of keeping left shoulder low as long as possible in transition.   But hey, between knees and this movement you have to be patient and work one at a time - slo motion is best since you can control the movement better and feel what you are doing - mirror is good, video to - then build to speed - iteach long ago told me to do lots of 1/3 speed swings for a new motion - if i could do it 7/10 time well then speed it up, rinse repeat.