Driver spin - Angle of attach, Dynamic loft or Vertical gear effects? - Adjustable hosels - Draw or Fade BIAS

[Howard_Jones]

Driver spin and what causes it, is a long lived myth where way to many think it has a relation to their angle of attach but it don't. Trackman boosted this myth with their "optimum" charts, where it looks like spin is a product of angle of attack, but that's a misjudgment.

AOA - ANGLE OF ATTACH
The typical interval we see in Golf for the driver goes from +5* to -5* so lets make it visual what we are talking about. On a ANALOG clock, we have 60 minutes in stead of 360* and 360/60 = 6, so 1 minute on a analog clock is equal to 6* degrees. If we now imagine a large analog clock behind the player, a negative AOA of 6* would be 16 minutes on the clock (RED), and +6* would be at 14 minutes (GREEN)

Angle of attack is the TRAVEL DIRECTION of CENTER OF GRAVITY at impact


 
The ball we play is "stupid", it don't know what time it is, not even if you showed him, and it has no clue where loft came from, or if our AOA was positive or negative, and real life testing with HUMAN's shows that angle of attack DON'T matter at all real life, because the actual RULER of spin is VERTICAL GEAR EFFECTS, so it boils down to "impact position vs VCOG."

VERTICAL GEAR EFFECTS
During impact, the head will always TWIST unless we made a impact where COG of the club head was 100 % directly behind COG in the ball, but that does not happen quite often, so the head will twist BACK if we make impact ABOVE COG in the club head (and cut off spin), and it will twist FORWARD if we make impact below COG (and ADD spin) That's what we call Vertical gear effects.

HORIZONTAL GEAR EFFECTS
A Toe side impact opens face angle and tilt the spin axis to the left (draw spin), and heel side impact will close it and tilt the spin axis to the right (Hook spin). That's what we call Horizontal gear effects. In many cases we have a combination of both vertical and horizontal gear effects. (See post #2 below for more info about Horizontal gear effects and how BIAS on drivers works)

HEAD MOI & Rearward center of gravity (RCOG)
The longer the distance is from the face to RCOG, the higher is the MOI value and the less will the head twist. That's why a head like TM SLDR could cut of tons of spin, with the combination of a LOW Vertical center of gravity, and a SHORT RCOG measurement. However, this heads also generate tons of spin if impact is below VCOG and Heel/Toe side impact punish the player harder with more horizontal gear effects. If the head you play has movable weights, moving weight against the back will add dynamic loft and launch and reduce head twisting and opposite.

STUDIO OBSERVATIONS
Excessive testing with human players (several PGA swing trainers) in my studio cracked the code back in 2011, where we was able to see a rather constant pattern among 5 different club heads used. The pattern we saw say that for each 1/8" we moved impact UP, spin dropped with average 240 RPM and launch went up with 0.35*. The same the other way, where 1/8" lower added 240 RPM of spin and launch when down average 0.35*.

That means the player who trace the "unicorn shaft" who can take his spin level down with 500 Rpm's, don't need a new shaft at all, he just have to dial in his average impact 2/8" higher on the face than he is now, who will cut of average 480 rpm of spin, and raise launch about 0.7*

The reason for spin change is the amount of head twisting either forward or back wards (distance from impact to COG) and the reason for launch difference is a combination of ROLL RATIO (variable loft depending on if we are high, mid or low on the face), plus the head twisting during impact.

IMPACT POSITION VS BALL SPEED - LAUNCH AND SPIN
Here is how it might look like for a 100 MPH player - pay attention to that CLUB SPEED goes up against the toe, and down against the heel side.
This "club speed lines" is equal to our swing plane, and average 58-60* with the driver, so a tad toe side (up to 3/8") is beneficial, the same with a impact thats about 3/8" above the center line of the face due to launch and vertical gear effects.

 

DYNAMIC LOFT TO LAUNCH
Angle of attack is a contributor to DYNAMIC LOFT, and Dynamic of is the ruler of launch angle, so a negative AOA reduces launch, and a positive AOA adds launch, but that's really all it does. Its when we want the negative AOA player to have the same launch angle as the positive AOA player we will see a spin difference, and that difference comes from the need for more loft for the negative AOA player.

For 100 mph we can use this factors from DYNAMIC LOFT TO LAUNCH ANGLE "all else equal"


Example, we want the Negative AOA player with -5* to gain 2.0* on launch angle
The need for more loft is then 2* / 0.77 = 2.6* more loft needed to gain 2.0* of launch angle.

SPIN CHANGE DUE TO LOFT CHANGE
Spin follows club speed, so to calculate how much spin it will cost this player to gain 2.0* on launch we can use this math.
From 80 mph club speed, 1* added loft cost 208 rpm of spin.
The 100 club speed player has 20 mph higher club speed, who gives 20/80 = 25%
now we add 25% to 208 rpm or simply 208 rpm x 1.25 = 260 rpm for each 1.0* loft, and he needs 2.6* who becomes 260 rpm x 2.6* = 676 rpm

THIS is where the negative AOA player "looses" or "gain spin", because he need more loft to get up to a "ideal" or good launch angle, so the "added spin" is only "indirect", and ONLY if we adds loft.

If the negative AOA player has a impact 3/8" below the center line, and has spin values about 1500 higher than wanted, all we need to do to cut off 1500 rpms of spin, and gain 2.0 on launch is to move impact 6/8" higher, or 3/8" above the centerline, so in many cases, we DON'T need the extra loft who cost us more spin.

THE SHAFTS CONTRIBUTION TO DYNAMIC LOFT
If we have a LM report, and know actual loft of the club, we can make a estimate of the shafts contribution to Dynamic loft like this.
Dynamic loft - Static loft - AOA = Contribution from the shaft
Example : 15 Dynamic loft minus 10.5 static loft minus +2* AOA = 2.5* of dynamic loft came from forward shaft bending

ANGLE OF ATTACH IS ONLY A CONTRIBUTOR TO LAUNCH ANGLE
Positive AOA = higher launch with use of less loft, THATS the benefit of it, it does not cut or add spin itself, and we can see that on a test made by Adam Young published here of WRX. This is a "better player" who is able to hit both up or down into the ball, and still make a good impact, so when we judge his SPIN values due to Trackmans SPIN loft formula, we can see that there is NO PATTERN to it, and the reason is that even the smallest variables to impact position puts vertical gear effects in play, and they overrule everything so bad, nothing else is visible. That also means we can FORGET "Spin loft" as a contributor to spin as soon as the club is in the hands of a human player.

LM REPORTS DEBUNKS THE AOA/SPIN MYTH
Chart on top has a average AOA of +5.8. The lower chart has a average AOA of -5.2 so the difference is 11.0* but we CANT see that on SPIN VALUE 
(analyze of the numbers below)


The numbers above from Adam You analyzed


The conclusion is. VERTICAL GEAR EFFECTS is the absolute ruler of spin on drivers, Angle of attach don't matter for anything but launch angle.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Howard_Jones

[Howard_Jones]

ADJUSTABLE LOFT - HOSEL SETTINGS.
Adjustable hosels for more or less loft has been on the marked for a decade now, but its still way to many who dont get them to work as expected, thanks to lack of correct info from OEMs.

We CANT adjust loft directly on any clubs, not even irons or wedges when we bend them in a bending machine. What we actually does is adjusting FACE ANGLE, and to "finish up" the face angle to loft conversion, WE HAVE TO rotate the club back to "square" before we place our hands on the grip.

If we adjust for MORE LOFT, it will start with a face angle thats CLOSING UP, but if we dont, squared it up before we grip it, we have the same loft, but now with a closed face angle.

The other way, LESS LOFT, will start with a more OPEN face angle, and if we dont square it up, we have the same loft we started from, AND a open face angle.

This small chart shows the conversion ratio from face angle to loft who is dependent on LIE ANGLE, and it dont need + or - symbols, since the changes is the same both ways.

Example we have a driver with 10.5* loft and wants to lower loft by 1.0*
If the lie angle is 60* the gear ratio is 1.5* OPEN face angle on the hosel setting, SQUARED UP before you grip it, will get you to 9.5*. IF you forgot to square up the club, you will still have have 10.5* of loft and 1.5* open face angle




DRAW or FADE BIAS
This is NOT about "faster face closure speed" in Draw or slower in Fade, its all about HORIZONTAL GEAR EFFECT

Imagine a head thats totally neutral with COG in a direct line behind the very center of the face. We can now draw a line vertical on the face, and mark heel side as FADE, and toe side as DRAW. When we move COG sideways, we make either the DRAW or FADE area larger like this:
 

The BLUE line is where COG is now, making either the toe or heel side larger to promote Horizontal gear effect for Fade or Draw.  its all about horizontal gear effects due to impact location vs COG and head twisting who impart either a Fade or Draw

Normally "dead center" would be strait (if face angle is), now we can "cheat" and make the center part of either heel or toe side to get the ball flight we want, still from a center of the face impact, by taking advantage of Horizontal Gear Effects. That's how BIAS weighting works. 

Edited June 12, 2022 by Howard_Jones

[Sean124]

Deleted

Edited January 3, 2022 by Sean124
Off topic

[Howard_Jones]

deletet
 

Edited January 3, 2022 by Howard_Jones
deleted

[lookylookitzadam]

So @Howard_Jones, if I am reading this correctly, the biggest impact at reducing spin would be to identify my VCOG for my driver and then aim for impacting 1/8-2/8” above that?  I have been trying to increase angle of attack but it seems like bigger gains could be had from strike location vertically. 

[Wardonation]

Great stuff as always... I have an AOA of +5 to +7 and super low spin guy. Same driver head and shaft 9 degree head spin is 1450rpm and 10.5 head closed 1 degree spin is just 2000 on average. Am I giving up ball speed going w/ the higher lofted driver?

[Wooderson]

Yep more free wisdom from Howard. Great stuff. 

[Howard_Jones]

44 minutes ago, lookylookitzadam said:

So @Howard_Jones, if I am reading this correctly, the biggest impact at reducing spin would be to identify my VCOG for my driver and then aim for impacting 1/8-2/8” above that?  I have been trying to increase angle of attack but it seems like bigger gains could be had from strike location vertically. 

NO - inline / level with the spot you find
The PEN method sends us ABOVE actual VCOG and to the area we should try to make impact. Depending on face roll ratio and RCOG, the PEN method sends us 2-3/8" above actual VCOG like you see here

Edited January 13, 2022 by Howard_Jones

[Howard_Jones]

41 minutes ago, Wardonation said:

Great stuff as always... I have an AOA of +5 to +7 and super low spin guy. Same driver head and shaft 9 degree head spin is 1450rpm and 10.5 head closed 1 degree spin is just 2000 on average. Am I giving up ball speed going w/ the higher lofted driver?

On the paper we can use 0.01 for each 1.0* of loft, but what we see on the paper is hardly ever what we see real life

Example
9.0* loft and a smash factor of 1.50
10.0 loft should then give 1.49
11.0 loft should then give 1.48

So the 100 mph player will theoretically loose 1 mph ball speed for each 1.0 loft he goes up..in theory. Thats whats its like for IRONS, and it "should" have been almost like that for drivers, but not real life

One of the most succes full drivers ive ever fitted for a customer was a Wishon 919 THi 13.0* loftet head with PFC 50 R shaft who is "high launch ...but far from high spin"...look at this.

Smash is 1.50 with 13* loft, launch is HIGH, spin is low, and he dont even have a positive angle of attack, but we got him way over and beyond Trackmans "optimum" charts for a AOA of +5*

Distance is meters, so his best shot is 199.4 meters / 0.91 = 219 yards carry
- total 225.8 meters /0.91 = 248 yards...and his club speed is right below 90.



Here is Trackmans "optimum" as compare...so we can get over and beyond this numbers for +5 AOA, even without av positive AOA when we take advantage of vertical gear effects, and a tad higher club speed a bit toe side.



So DONT be affraid of LOFT, use the loft thats needed, it want rob you for ball speed when we make impact in the area of the face we should

Edited January 13, 2022 by Howard_Jones

[Wardonation]

39 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

On the paper we can use 0.01 for each 1.0* of loft, but what we see on the paper is hardly ever what we see real life

Example
9.0* loft and a smash factor of 1.50
10.0 loft should then give 1.49
11.0 loft should then give 1.48

So the 100 mph player will theoretically loose 1 mph ball speed for each 1.0 loft he goes up..in theory. Thats whats its like for IRONS, and it "should" have been almost like that for drivers, but not real life

One of the most succes full drivers ive ever fitted for a customer was a Wishon 919 THi 13.0* loftet head with PFC 50 R shaft who is "high launch ...but far from high spin"...look at this.

Smash is 1.50 with 13* loft, launch is HIGH, spin is low, and he dont even have a positive angle of attack, but we got him way over and beyond Trackmans "optimum" charts for a AOA of +5*

Distance is meters, so his best shot is 199.4 meters / 0.91 = 219 yards carry
- total 225.8 meters /0.91 = 248 yards...and his club speed is right below 90.



Here is Trackmans "optimum" as compare...so we can get over and beyond this numbers for +5 AOA, even without av positive AOA when we take advantage of vertical gear effects, and a tad higher club speed a bit toe side.



So DONT be affraid of LOFT, use the loft thats needed, it want rob you for ball speed when we make impact in the area of the face we should

Once gain thank you. i wish you would write a book or at min have your own "thread" on this site... 

[lookylookitzadam]

1 hour ago, Howard_Jones said:

NO - inline / level with the spot you find
The PEN method sends us ABOVE actual VCOG and to the area we should try to make impact. Depending on face roll ratio and RCOG, the PEN method sends us 2-3/8" above actual VCOG like you see here

Thank you, so basically using your other “Driver Tune Up” thread where you can determine the COG at the face is the best approach and spot for impact.

[Bogeygolfisfun]

On 1/13/2022 at 2:58 PM, Howard_Jones said:

On the paper we can use 0.01 for each 1.0* of loft, but what we see on the paper is hardly ever what we see real life

Example
9.0* loft and a smash factor of 1.50
10.0 loft should then give 1.49
11.0 loft should then give 1.48

So the 100 mph player will theoretically loose 1 mph ball speed for each 1.0 loft he goes up..in theory. Thats whats its like for IRONS, and it "should" have been almost like that for drivers, but not real life

One of the most succes full drivers ive ever fitted for a customer was a Wishon 919 THi 13.0* loftet head with PFC 50 R shaft who is "high launch ...but far from high spin"...look at this.

Smash is 1.50 with 13* loft, launch is HIGH, spin is low, and he dont even have a positive angle of attack, but we got him way over and beyond Trackmans "optimum" charts for a AOA of +5*

Distance is meters, so his best shot is 199.4 meters / 0.91 = 219 yards carry
- total 225.8 meters /0.91 = 248 yards...and his club speed is right below 90.



Here is Trackmans "optimum" as compare...so we can get over and beyond this numbers for +5 AOA, even without av positive AOA when we take advantage of vertical gear effects, and a tad higher club speed a bit toe side.



So DONT be affraid of LOFT, use the loft thats needed, it want rob you for ball speed when we make impact in the area of the face we should

So looking to get fit this year for a driver and this post along with the DIY driver post by Howard is awesome.

 

Question on this post is there an goal for dynamic loft and spin to maximize carry. My swing speed is similar to above, about ninety five mph

 

 Want to go into the fitting with as mush info as possible.

[Howard_Jones]

On 2/19/2022 at 3:03 AM, Bogeygolfisfun said:

So looking to get fit this year for a driver and this post along with the DIY driver post by Howard is awesome.

 

Question on this post is there an goal for dynamic loft and spin to maximize carry. My swing speed is similar to above, about ninety five mph

 

 Want to go into the fitting with as mush info as possible.

NO, its about LAUNCH angle. NOT dynamic loft, but different ball speed has different launch to optimize either carry pr total- Higher the ball speed is, the lower is ideal launch. scroll UP to those Trackman charts. I DONT like them at all, but you can see the pattern of launch angles from lowest to highest club speed where the 75 mph player is all the way up and above 19* while the 120 mph player is right above 12* as launch.

Rule of thumb : 10 mph ball speed changes ideal launch with 1.0*
Higher ball speed, lower launch is ideal and opposite. 

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Howard_Jones

[Andygolderson]

I finally got on a launch monitor that measures spin - ES14 I was surprised to find i range from 2100-2500 on average, because otherwise, i tend to have a baloon ball flight.

 

Balancing the face on a pen was pretty fun and good to see that 2 similar driver heads both resulted in the same spot.

 

I now have a question, since the numbers were limited on the monitor, is there a way i can calculate my angle of attack ?

 

With an 8* head, i was producing:

11.4 launch, 1.46 smash, 110 club speed, 162 ball speed, 2147 spin and 290 (i think is total)

10.5 launch, 1.49 smash, 110 club speed, 164 ball speed, 1938 spin and 295 total.

 

Later i changed the loft up to around 10, but i lost the data as it never saved. With 10.5 club loft, i was achieving around 12-13* launch, but the spin increases to around 2500-2900.

 

I'm assuming this means i have mostly negative AoA, and sometimes reaching closer to zero ?

[Howard_Jones]

8 minutes ago, Andygolderson said:

I finally got on a launch monitor that measures spin - ES14 I was surprised to find i range from 2100-2500 on average, because otherwise, i tend to have a baloon ball flight.

 

Balancing the face on a pen was pretty fun and good to see that 2 similar driver heads both resulted in the same spot.

 

I now have a question, since the numbers were limited on the monitor, is there a way i can calculate my angle of attack ?

 

With an 8* head, i was producing:

11.4 launch, 1.46 smash, 110 club speed, 162 ball speed, 2147 spin and 290 (i think is total)

10.5 launch, 1.49 smash, 110 club speed, 164 ball speed, 1938 spin and 295 total.

 

Later i changed the loft up to around 10, but i lost the data as it never saved. With 10.5 club loft, i was achieving around 12-13* launch, but the spin increases to around 2500-2900.

 

I'm assuming this means i have mostly negative AoA, and sometimes reaching closer to zero ?

We are not able to calculate your angle of attach, since we dont know factor X, the contribution from the shaft.

Launch angle as average is 0.85 of Dynamic loft (like explained above, when AOA is 0*), but it vary a little with club speed and AOA, so we are out in guesswork trying to isolate AOA with the numbers provided.

What we can do is use the average and say to get 11.0* launch, we need average 11.0*/ 0.85 = 12.95 Dynamic loft.
Static loft was only 8.0* the difference is 4.95* and its not likely that the shaft delivered more than 4.0....but thats a guess, so it dont seems like your AOA is negative, but +/- zero.

If we know AOA, we can use this math to find how much the shaft contributed with, but without AOA, we end up like above where its AOA and the shaft contribution as a sum, and with a rather large error factor since we started with the average factor for Dynamic loft to launch. 
 

[Stuart_G]

5 hours ago, Andygolderson said:

I finally got on a launch monitor that measures spin - ES14 I was surprised to find i range from 2100-2500 on average, because otherwise, i tend to have a baloon ball flight.

 

ES14 doesn't actually measure spin directly, it calculates it from some other measurements.   So not sure how much faith I'd put into those numbers especially on a driver with a large amount of gear effect in play (which the ES14 can't calculate for).

[mogc60]

Howard that is a terrific post and the information you’ve provided should be the WRX scripture for basic launch conditions. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and research at such a high clip. Very much appreciated always 

[Andygolderson]

18 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

We are not able to calculate your angle of attach, since we dont know factor X, the contribution from the shaft.

Launch angle as average is 0.85 of Dynamic loft (like explained above, when AOA is 0*), but it vary a little with club speed and AOA, so we are out in guesswork trying to isolate AOA with the numbers provided.

What we can do is use the average and say to get 11.0* launch, we need average 11.0*/ 0.85 = 12.95 Dynamic loft.
Static loft was only 8.0* the difference is 4.95* and its not likely that the shaft delivered more than 4.0....but thats a guess, so it dont seems like your AOA is negative, but +/- zero.

If we know AOA, we can use this math to find how much the shaft contributed with, but without AOA, we end up like above where its AOA and the shaft contribution as a sum, and with a rather large error factor since we started with the average factor for Dynamic loft to launch. 
 

OK, thanks for the explanation. I learned a lot of knowledge here from your various posts. I don't get access to fitters and tools, so i like to try to diagnose myself. Your tutorials are very helpful.

Apologies for the annoying questions, it can be difficult to understand initially.

I'm also guessing i'm +/- zero, but within a few degrees difference, i guess it's quite large variation 🙂

13 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

ES14 doesn't actually measure spin directly, it calculates it from some other measurements.   So not sure how much faith I'd put into those numbers especially on a driver with a large amount of gear effect in play (which the ES14 can't calculate for).

also good to know. I pair together with my own PRGR, which i learned is actually trash and only accurate for ball speed. The swing speed is +10mph more, which means my smash factor is always actually lower than reported. Also means the distance won't be accurate either i guess.

Would you have a better recommendation than ES14 for a portable monitor to more accurately measure spin? For example, i was surprised i had 11834 rpm on my lob wedge.

[Howard_Jones]

52 minutes ago, Andygolderson said:

I'm also guessing i'm +/- zero, but within a few degrees difference, i guess it's quite large variation 🙂

No its NOT, dont forget that we are Humans, we are not able to compete with Iron Byron here, so take a look on this Trackman report. I guess you have heard of this player before? he is from Northern Ireland and is quite known. His name is Rory Mcillroy 🙂 (pun intended)

Pay attention to the YELLOW marked field....his Angle of attack (back in 2010) had a variable of PLUS MINUS 2.2* or a difference of 4.4 from highest to lowest, so dont have unrealistic demands to yourself, thats not good for your confidence.

(Trackman has even missed on the math here, his lowest AOA was 1.2* and his highest is 8.0* or 6.8* as difference / 2 = 3.4 as consistency, not only 2.2 as the report say, so not even Trackman is "perfect")

Simply accept that you are human with a natural variable for performance in everything we do in life, and have fun playing the game. In the end its not about to please a launch monitor,  or "charts on the wall", but our own state of mind and mood, where even a bad shot should bring a smile on your lips.

Have fun out there and enjoy the game!


 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Howard_Jones

[Andygolderson]

yes, of course, i was meaning that i'm probably positive 1-4 on one swing, zero on another then minus 1-4 on another end, ranging to 8* from swing to swing. In general i'm on the minus, swinging down, so i'm trying to improve my launch conditions to prevent a baloon flight as i'm often seeing.

(unless, of course, you think this is still too generous on myself :p)

[Howard_Jones]

7 minutes ago, Andygolderson said:

yes, of course, i was meaning that i'm probably positive 1-4 on one swing, zero on another then minus 1-4 on another end, ranging to 8* from swing to swing. In general i'm on the minus, swinging down, so i'm trying to improve my launch conditions to prevent a baloon flight as i'm often seeing.

(unless, of course, you think this is still too generous on myself :p)

You most likely forgot to add 5-8 grams to the hosel as replacement for the connector/adapter, and thats why you get VCOG a tad toe side indicating a FADE BIAS, while its most likely neutral unless its delivered as FADE bias from OEM.

Many players struggles a lot to get a positive AOA, and that can lead us into all sorts of issues from a highly variable impact position to flipping hands. Simply dont try to hard. Its better to tee the ball lower and imagine that we shall play the ball like it was a fairway wood off the deck. That makes it easier to get the impact position we want, where ball speed is at the max and both launch and spin conditions is good. AOA ONLY influence on launch angle, but if you miss it and get impact low on the face, we might loose up to 4.0* on launch for that reason alone, and add tons of spin. Thats why many is better of to imagine that its a fairway shot, where we dont even think of AOA, only a good impact since thats what really matters the most, also for consistency from shot to shot.

[Andygolderson]

9 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

You most likely forgot to add 5-8 grams to the hosel as replacement for the connector/adapter, and thats why you get VCOG a tad toe side indicating a FADE BIAS, while its most likely neutral unless its delivered as FADE bias from OEM.

indeed, i forgot 😆. I have heard it's fade biased, maybe i'll repat again to find out !

 

Agree, i don't want to go forcing myself into swing changes to improve AoA. I've recently got myself to a good point where i've eliminated my slice. This topic (the many other based on this) just really interested me on how i could improve, tweak or optimise the equipment side. I naturally assume i will get more distance from a 9* down at 7.5 with higher swing and ball speed, but i've learned that's not the case and considering now higher lofts.

For example, I had been playing well with only 4g head weight and my friend commented my driver has zero feeling. I quite like it like that, but maybe needs different setup for more performance. As you mention though, swing weight changes continuously from shaft to shaft, grip to grip, weight to weight.

 

At least i also now have better visual representation of spin and what a "good" flight will look like with lower spin. Going to experiment this evening with shafts, weights and head lofts to see what i can find.

 

Thanks again for your great advice, it's essentially an online fitting 🤣. I can report back any settings if interesting, however, there won't be any data to compare.

[Rbsiedsc]

so if I want to change my start line (if I am leaving face open and having push fades), if i loft up but don't square the face at address, i will possibly change my start line more left and hit a fade onto target vs a push? btw, great stuff @Howard_Jones

[Howard_Jones]

10 minutes ago, Rbsiedsc said:

so if I want to change my start line (if I am leaving face open and having push fades), if i loft up but don't square the face at address, i will possibly change my start line more left and hit a fade onto target vs a push? btw, great stuff @Howard_Jones

Yes, if you just ground the club and grip it like normal, you should now have a more closed face angle