Learning to avoid tournaments or not play sometimes.

[tiger1873]

I am guilty of this and I know a lot us are too.  

 

You see a tournament and it is held on a bad course or bad time of year.  Even worse it has a very small field and you sign up for anyways.   You know you shouldn't sign up for this tournament but for some reason you feel the need to play. One you play it it then doesn't turn out well and you wish you never signed up.

 

Winter tournaments are the worst the courses and weather are usually not worth playing. Sometimes you are better off just staying home and practicing.  Also signing up for tournaments there just not ready for (like AJGA when there 12) is a bad idea.  Those almost always turn out bad.  Why do we do feel the need to sign up.

Edited January 10, 2022 by tiger1873

[Kcct82]

I don’t think much about tournaments. I just let my kid play different events to gain experience. At the end of the day, his ability will be reflected in his scores. Not gonna try to nitpick tournaments to make him appear better than he actually is. 

[Bizzle80]

I’m the opposite, if I have to drive far or it’s at a dog track I’m not even considering it. I could care less if my kids getting tournament reps in, it’s not worth a s*** Sunday. I tried that a few times early on and never again.
 

I would rather take her to eat a nice brunch at the club and let her kick my a** for 9 holes…

[kekoa]

Sounds like you only regret signing up for a tourney because your kids placed poorly.  Welcome to golf 😎

[tiger1873]

6 hours ago, kekoa said:

Sounds like you only regret signing up for a tourney because your kids placed poorly.  Welcome to golf 😎

 

Some tournaments are not worth doing at all and you setting yourself up for failure.

 

I will give you a good example.

 

There was a FJT tournament in Mission Hills this weekend. On paper this tournament is exactly what a lot kids should be playing.   Felt guilty but glad we didn't do this one.

 

Here is why.  The course is not really meant to be played this time of year.  The course is really designed to be played in spring through November. They play it in January so conditions are not too good.  Then add to the fact the FSGA decided that they should play 3 rounds in a weekend with limited daylight makes this a real dicey tournament.  

 

I thought the scores would be bad and they were.  Some kids did okay but the vast majority score much higher than they normally would.   Most of those kids should have just avoided playing it.  What makes it worse is this tournament was supposed to showcase you in front of college coaches.   Wouldn't be surprised if it actually cost some kids a spot.

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by tiger1873

[heavy_hitter]

8 hours ago, kekoa said:

Sounds like you only regret signing up for a tourney because your kids placed poorly.  Welcome to golf 😎

 

My boy was second and qualified for the Notah at Mission Inn at -1 for the two days.  He will never play another tournament there again unless he has too (our state HS Championship is normally there).  Playing during season is even worse as the fairways look like a mine field with divots.  Holes where the tee shots favor a right handed player over a left handed player and vice versa because of ungroomed trees on the tee boxes, not because the hole was designed that way.  The course is over played by tournament golfers, it is tight, and needs a complete renovation.  I haven't even mentioned the exposed roots all over the course and random cinder blocks in rough areas in certain places on the course.

 

Tiger is actually correct @leezer99.  Just like the PGA tour guys, a junior golfer should set his schedule around what sets up best for him/her.  That includes playing courses that don't fit their eye.  It also means avoiding tournaments for the most part in January and February in certain parts of the country.  FJT plays 13-15 year old at Mark Bostic every year.  The best players rarely sign up for this event because it is known for it's high scores.  Gainesville in January is windy, cold, and course is tight in spots with small turtle back greens.  This is a 54 hole tournament and 80-90% of the field is going to shoot in the 80's at least once over the three days.  The Course rating is normally low and it is a JGS killer.  Last year at the Bostic for the girl's the average differential for them was a 10.  The best players are not playing in these type of events and all pick and choose the venues they play at carefully.  

 

These are just a couple of examples and I can give you several more. 

 

Understand one thing, I am not talking about avoiding tournaments because of competition.

Edited January 10, 2022 by heavy_hitter

[leezer99]

If you're not signing your kid up because you're scared of poor conditions or high scores then your scores are a farce.  You think that once your kid is in college that he's going to have the choice to sit out because the course doesn't fit his eye?  What if the school's qualifying site doesn't fit their eye?  Come on... Game travels.

[Movingday]

Ok, so as someone that isn’t at the point where rankings matter, I’m trying to see the logic here. I’m assuming the worry of what scores are shot is completely about ranking? These rankings decide what tournaments you can get it later in the year? I’ve read a lot of threads on here about rankings, but still haven’t really gotten a clear picture on what matters or how players are ranked. I would think a college coach would love watching a player play in tough conditions to see how they handle the adversity and grind through a round?

[heavy_hitter]

On 1/10/2022 at 10:09 AM, leezer99 said:

If you're not signing your kid up because you're scared of poor conditions or high scores then your scores are a farce.  You think that once your kid is in college that he's going to have the choice to sit out because the course doesn't fit his eye?  What if the school's qualifying site doesn't fit their eye?  Come on... Game travels.

 

Hey...  you are up to play your kid in anything you want.  There is a SFPGA this weekend locally.  It is a Par 72 from 6200 yards with a course rating that will likely be a 69.3ish.  Means if you shoot a 72, which is a good score, the ranking will get worse.  Instead, we opted to play in a AJGA qualifier in North Florida with a better field and a better course rating.

 

There are always options in Florida, Texas, and California.  If you are choosing to play hard courses with low course ratings at a venue with high scores, that is up to you.  The college coaches see the scoring differential along with the strength of the field. Courses should be selected by course rating and the success you think you can have on that course.  No one should play in a tournament, just to play in a tournament.  There is no way to play in all of them.

 

There is a reason the Honda and the Valspar don't have great PGA fields.

 

Where you play, what tournaments are around others, and what time of year should always be in the back of your mind when scheduling.  There are 100's of tournaments and it is impossible to play in all of them.  The sweet spot in my opinion is 10-15 multi day tournaments a calendar year.   

 

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by heavy_hitter

[leezer99]

Nobody plays the Honda because it’s at the end of a long west coast swing and it’s squished between Tiger’s tournament and the Arnold Palmer. The Valspar is the week after the Players and just before a WGC. 

[heavy_hitter]

2 hours ago, Movingday said:

Ok, so as someone that isn’t at the point where rankings matter, I’m trying to see the logic here. I’m assuming the worry of what scores are shot is completely about ranking? These rankings decide what tournaments you can get it later in the year? I’ve read a lot of threads on here about rankings, but still haven’t really gotten a clear picture on what matters or how players are ranked. I would think a college coach would love watching a player play in tough conditions to see how they handle the adversity and grind through a round?

 

College coaches aren't attending those tournaments unless they are high level AJGA, USGA Jr., North South, etc. type of events.  90% of all junior wanting to play college golf have to recruit themselves.

 

Rankings are basically determined by the scoring differential.  The higher the course rating the better in most cases.  JGS will do a course adjustment, but you never what those are and how they are going to effect.  They  basically adjust the rating from a average of scores based on the strength of that field.  If the field isn't great, the adjustment isn't great.  A lot of these tournaments played certain times of year at certain venues will have relatively weak fields overall.  The better players aren't going to play that venue and December thru Februaryish is practice, workout, and down time. 

 

The event Tiger was talking about at Mission in was likely a course rating around a 73.8.  North Florida this time of year the weather isn't great (windy, cold, rainy etc.)  This tournament this weekend was a 13-15 mph winds with no rain and wasn't cold.   The Boy's Average Score was 82.7 for the weekend.  The scores are always this way at this venue.  So even if the rating gets an adjustment up to a 75, the average differential is a 7.2.  Looking at the scores of the tournament, it basically helped a total of 4 kids rankings.  The goal is to have a negative scoring differential by you sophomore-junior year.

Edited January 10, 2022 by heavy_hitter

[heavy_hitter]

4 minutes ago, leezer99 said:

Nobody plays the Honda because it’s at the end of a long west coast swing and it’s squished between Tiger’s tournament and the Arnold Palmer. The Valspar is the week after the Players and just before a WGC. 

 

They weren't always that way and still didn't get great fields.  If they were quality venues, players would play them. DJ, Brooks, JT, Tiger, Fowler, Rory, 100's of PGA players live within a stone's throw of PGA National, and still don't play.  Have been to and played both the Champion and Coppershead courses.  They are both let downs.

[tiger1873]

56 minutes ago, Movingday said:

Ok, so as someone that isn’t at the point where rankings matter, I’m trying to see the logic here. I’m assuming the worry of what scores are shot is completely about ranking? These rankings decide what tournaments you can get it later in the year? I’ve read a lot of threads on here about rankings, but still haven’t really gotten a clear picture on what matters or how players are ranked. I would think a college coach would love watching a player play in tough conditions to see how they handle the adversity and grind through a round?

 

Anyone who says rankings doesn't matter is not serious in Junior Golf.  

 

As your kid gets older you want to play in better tournaments and not be paired with kids who are just starting out.  Heck here in south florida they are making it harder for kids to play 2 day tournaments.  If you have a good ranking you bypass months of having to prove yourself.   

 

I used to just play everything that I could. Didn't think about weather or time of year.  I tried to avoid the dumps but I still entered my kid in the nicer courses. A lot people are guilty of doing this.  The result was rankings were really bad on JGS.  Playing in nice hard courses in the wrong time of year can really cause high scores.  It did for everyone playing those so I figured ranking didn't matter.

 

At some point you will get rejected in playing the better tournament you should be in.  Skills have nothing to with it either.  The parents who know better play venues with the best chance of good weather.  

 

Once I figured this out I started playing smarter the result has been dramatic.  First off my daughter has a lot confidence we even has a lot success.  The rankings took a while but they are moving up a lot every week.  We are now getting into things we want to. So that why I am saying this is important.

 

No one says to avoid hard courses you just need to think about the tournaments you are playing and make sure they make sense.  Make sure you playing tournaments where you have more to gain then lose.  

 

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

1 hour ago, leezer99 said:

If you're not signing your kid up because you're scared of poor conditions or high scores then your scores are a farce.  You think that once your kid is in college that he's going to have the choice to sit out because the course doesn't fit his eye?  What if the school's qualifying site doesn't fit their eye?  Come on... Game travels.

This is spot on.

 

My son hates their qualifying course when the weather is bad.  No roll out.  Puddles everywhere.

Conference Championship.  It's not like you can WD cause the weather s**ks.  Practice round day it was 81.  The final sunday in October its was windy and 51.

 

My daughter loves the dog tracks and crappy weather.  She knows most girls don't like it so it was a perfect day she might get beat.  On Rainy and crappy days she is bringing home the gold.

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

2 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

 

Anyone who says rankings doesn't matter is not serious in Junior Golf.  

 

 

 

Rankings is not the end all.  Rankings alone will not get you a scholarship.  Rankings alone will not get you past admissions. 

 

Being great in junior golf doesn't translate to collegiate golf.

[tiger1873]

9 minutes ago, TripleBogeysrbetter said:

This is spot on.

 

My son hates their qualifying course when the weather is bad.  No roll out.  Puddles everywhere.

Conference Championship.  It's not like you can WD cause the weather s**ks.  Practice round day it was 81.  The final sunday in October its was windy and 51.

 

My daughter loves the dog tracks and crappy weather.  She knows most girls don't like it so it was a perfect day she might get beat.  On Rainy and crappy days she is bringing home the gold.

 

Here is the thing you play in June in the northeast the chances are the course is going to be in great shape.  Can bad weather happen of course it can but the odds are the course will be playable.

 

I seen a tournament with AJGA exemptions in pinehurst that was last weekend and it was a 2 day ranked tournament. What do you think the odds are that the weather in pinehurst is going to be good the 1st week of january.    The AJGA exemptions were worth the trip but the weather was an issue so not really a good option. 

Edited January 10, 2022 by tiger1873

[leezer99]

Note to self: invest in a subscription to The Farmers’ Almanac so I know what events to enter. 

[tiger1873]

2 minutes ago, TripleBogeysrbetter said:

Rankings is not the end all.  Rankings alone will not get you a scholarship.  Rankings alone will not get you past admissions. 

 

Being great in junior golf doesn't translate to collegiate golf.

 

 

The problem is twofold.  You almost certainly will have to start at the bottom of tour if you're not ranked well. The other issue is you're going to get paired with kids who may not be able to play.

 

There are other advantages but those two are pretty big.  It's not really about gaming the rankings at all but making sure you are not under ranked.  If your beating kids regularly way above your ranking that is a good indication you are.

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

1 minute ago, tiger1873 said:

 

 

The problem is twofold.  You almost certainly will have to start at the bottom of tour if you're not ranked well. The other issue is you're going to get paired with kids who may not be able to play.

 

There are other advantages but those two are pretty big.  It's not really about gaming the rankings at all but making sure you are not under ranked.  If your beating kids regularly way above your ranking that is a good indication you are.

College scholarships are not about rankings!!

 

Kids have to market themselves.  If not you are just another golfer with a 73.5 scoring avg / 1450 SAT / 3.9 GPA and ranked within the top 1000. 

 

Coaches get these kids emails constantly.  Worrying about which course and tournament is ranked the best is worthless.

The ranking is just one little nugget in the marketing campaign. 

[tiger1873]

1 minute ago, TripleBogeysrbetter said:

College scholarships are not about rankings!!

 

Kids have to market themselves.  If not you are just another golfer with a 73.5 scoring avg / 1450 SAT / 3.9 GPA and ranked within the top 1000. 

 

Coaches get these kids emails constantly.  Worrying about which course and tournament is ranked the best is worthless.

The ranking is just one little nugget in the marketing campaign. 

 

 

It's not about college scholarships at all.  My daughter moved up a lot in the rankings in the last 6 months. A lot it was hard work but some it also has been playing the correct venues for her.

 

The biggest advantage I am seeing is tour officials obviously look at rankings. We play multiple tours and guess what they seem to pair you with players that are ranked the same as you.   Tournaments are lot more enjoyable playing with better players.  Watching a kid hit triple bogeys on half the holes hurts scores. 

 

 

[heavy_hitter]

I think several in here are missing the point. 

 

The Southern Invitational is a highly prestigious tournament that rotates venues among Southern States yearly just like the Western.  It doesn't matter the venue, state, or time of year this is a tournament every junior golfer should sign up and play if accepted or invited.  Weather or the Course does not matter.

 

If you are looking at playing a local, regional, or state tour you need to pick your spots.  These tours are running anywhere from 10-30 events a year.  Many times they cross weekends.  Weather never can be controlled.

 

There are tournaments at certain venues certain times of the year that don't make sense.  I have talked to UF players.  They even hate playing the Mark Bostic Course in January/February.  The other months it is a good University Course.  The ground gets cold, the grass goes dormant, and the greens are extremely difficult.  By the same token, FJT is playing in Tallahassee the same weekend as the Bostic.  Tallahassee is further north and I would play the Seminole Legacy course in a heart beat despite any weather.  We chose not to because the AJGA was closer and we didn't want to drive 5 over 5 hours.

 

 

 

[Pinewood Golfer]

2 hours ago, heavy_hitter said:

 

College coaches aren't attending those tournaments unless they are high level AJGA, USGA Jr., North South, etc. type of events.  90% of all junior wanting to play college golf have to recruit themselves.

 

Rankings are basically determined by the scoring differential.  The higher the course rating the better in most cases.  JGS will do a course adjustment, but you never what those are and how they are going to effect.  They  basically adjust the rating from a average of scores based on the strength of that field.  If the field isn't great, the adjustment isn't great.  A lot of these tournaments played certain times of year at certain venues will have relatively weak fields overall.  The better players aren't going to play that venue and December thru Februaryish is practice, workout, and down time. 

 

The event Tiger was talking about at Mission in was likely a course rating around a 73.8.  North Florida this time of year the weather isn't great (windy, cold, rainy etc.)  This tournament this weekend was a 13-15 mph winds with no rain and wasn't cold.   The Boy's Average Score was 82.7 for the weekend.  The scores are always this way at this venue.  So even if the rating gets an adjustment up to a 75, the average differential is a 7.2.  Looking at the scores of the tournament, it basically helped a total of 4 kids rankings.  The goal is to have a negative scoring differential by you sophomore-junior year.

The JGS Course Rating Adjustment has gone a long way toward correcting all this as long as you’re playing in large enough fields. We played the Tommy Moore in NOLA week after Christmas and CR adjusted upward 2 shots despite them moving tees up a couple hundred yards from posted due to extremely high winds. Ultimate. CR was very fair given conditions. 74.4 from basically 6500 yards. 

[heavy_hitter]

2 minutes ago, Pinewood Golfer said:

The JGS Course Rating Adjustment has gone a long way toward correcting all this as long as you’re playing in large enough fields. We played the Tommy Moore in NOLA week after Christmas and CR adjusted upward 2 shots despite them moving tees up a couple hundred yards from posted due to extremely high winds. Ultimate. CR was very fair given conditions. 74.4 from basically 6500 yards. 

 

I don't disagree, but if the field is weak it still doesn't do the course rating justice.  There is a difference in playing in fields when everyone is ranked top 1500 and fields where half are ranked above 1500. Look at AJGA course adjustments where a kid shoots a 62 and the course rating is adjusted from a 74 to a 78.  That never happens in a weaker field.  Basically this is the reason we will avoid just about anything at this point that is 13-18.  Generally speaking, 13-15 age group rankings aren't as good and when added to the fields they shorten the course which reduces the course ratings.  Want to play in big, quality fields, where the course rating is a 73 or better.  Would prefer the course rating to be around 75.  Also, want to play a course that plays to the course rating.  It makes no sense to play a course rated a 73 when it generally plays as a 75.

[tiger1873]

49 minutes ago, Pinewood Golfer said:

The JGS Course Rating Adjustment has gone a long way toward correcting all this as long as you’re playing in large enough fields. We played the Tommy Moore in NOLA week after Christmas and CR adjusted upward 2 shots despite them moving tees up a couple hundred yards from posted due to extremely high winds. Ultimate. CR was very fair given conditions. 74.4 from basically 6500 yards. 

 

Don't get me going on JGS course rating adjustment. It's used as a strength of tournament rating and a way to help players maintain a rank more than anything else.  The lower ranked your field is the easier it is to get a course adjustment for a bad day for that player.

 

I have seen horrible conditions that everyone scores above 80 and there is no adjustment upwards.   However is a high ranked player have a bad day I seen the whole field adjusted upwards so they don't fall in the rankings. What is even worse if you have a few improving players in a tournament they are usually penalized because it adjusted down.   To me it looks like a simple formula that not much thought went into it.

 

For instance I would play a dustin johnson or Kathy whitworth with no worries because it will have a crazy high adjustment every time since a lot good players don't do as well.  That would not happen in a local or regional tournament.

Edited January 10, 2022 by tiger1873

[heavy_hitter]

7 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

 

Don't get me going on course rating. It's used as a strength of tournament rating and a way to help players maintain a rank more than anything else.  The lower ranked your field is the easier it is to get a course adjustment for a bad day.

 

I have seen horrible conditions that everyone scores above 80 and there is no adjustment upwards.   However is a high ranked player have a bad day I seen the whole field adjusted upwards so they don't fall in the rankings. What is even worse if you have a few improving players in a tournament they are usually penalized because it adjusted down.   To me it looks like a simple formula that not much thought went into it.

 

They have removed that it as a weather rating.  It is more of a Field Adjustment rating in my opinion.  They run the numbers and compare to their data over time to see how the field compares.  They then make ratings adjustments from there.  Not sure if they do a comparison to the course itself or just a field comparison.  The one thing I disagree with is moving a course rating lower because a field exceeds expectations.  Not really sure how I feel about the course rating adjustment.  One minute I am for it and the next am negative towards it.  I am guessing the scoring differentials are lower than they have ever been across the board, that is at least how it looks to me.

Edited January 10, 2022 by heavy_hitter

[Jkhogbear]

I think the main thing is that your kid is working to improve his/her game.  If you can play in tournaments and really use them as learning experiences and then work on what you struggled on, then you can see a lot of progress.   For us that meant spacing out tournaments a little to allow time to develop and work on the game.  Playing in the winter/wind helped I think even if it hurt scores temporarily.    Our steps are tournament, lesson to address weakness in that tournament,  practice what was learned in lesson, and then another tournament.   Do that over and over and have seen good results long term.   Short term, yeah there are some bumps. 

[RmoorePE]

1 hour ago, Jkhogbear said:

I think the main thing is that your kid is working to improve his/her game.  If you can play in tournaments and really use them as learning experiences and then work on what you struggled on, then you can see a lot of progress.   For us that meant spacing out tournaments a little to allow time to develop and work on the game.  Playing in the winter/wind helped I think even if it hurt scores temporarily.    Our steps are tournament, lesson to address weakness in that tournament,  practice what was learned in lesson, and then another tournament.   Do that over and over and have seen good results long term.   Short term, yeah there are some bumps. 

I was just about to make the same post.

 

I.e. my youngest performed best when she could play a tournament, then a week off, then another tournament. It meant she had fresh images in her mind about what happened in the last tournament, vs getting ready for the next one. When we had back to back weeks, she felt too much pressure to fit in all the things she wanted to work on in between. When we went a long time between tournaments her mentality weakened and it took 9 holes to snap back to tournament playing.

 

 

 

 

[Pinewood Golfer]

8 hours ago, heavy_hitter said:

 

I don't disagree, but if the field is weak it still doesn't do the course rating justice.  There is a difference in playing in fields when everyone is ranked top 1500 and fields where half are ranked above 1500. Look at AJGA course adjustments where a kid shoots a 62 and the course rating is adjusted from a 74 to a 78.  That never happens in a weaker field.  Basically this is the reason we will avoid just about anything at this point that is 13-18.  Generally speaking, 13-15 age group rankings aren't as good and when added to the fields they shorten the course which reduces the course ratings.  Want to play in big, quality fields, where the course rating is a 73 or better.  Would prefer the course rating to be around 75.  Also, want to play a course that plays to the course rating.  It makes no sense to play a course rated a 73 when it generally plays as a 75.

That’s a different argument. The less than overall divisions are at a disadvantage because the kids, sorta by definition, are getting better. Which works against the CR adjustment. The whole “shoot a 62 vs course rating” argument is dumb. If you have an “overall” field then the CR adjustment is fine to account for conditions or time of year

[Pinewood Golfer]

7 hours ago, tiger1873 said:

 

Don't get me going on JGS course rating adjustment. It's used as a strength of tournament rating and a way to help players maintain a rank more than anything else.  The lower ranked your field is the easier it is to get a course adjustment for a bad day for that player.

 

I have seen horrible conditions that everyone scores above 80 and there is no adjustment upwards.   However is a high ranked player have a bad day I seen the whole field adjusted upwards so they don't fall in the rankings. What is even worse if you have a few improving players in a tournament they are usually penalized because it adjusted down.   To me it looks like a simple formula that not much thought went into it.

 

For instance I would play a dustin johnson or Kathy whitworth with no worries because it will have a crazy high adjustment every time since a lot good players don't do as well.  That would not happen in a local or regional tournament.

No it’s not. You are either dumb or jaded

[Pinewood Golfer]

7 hours ago, heavy_hitter said:

 

They have removed that it as a weather rating.  It is more of a Field Adjustment rating in my opinion.  They run the numbers and compare to their data over time to see how the field compares.  They then make ratings adjustments from there.  Not sure if they do a comparison to the course itself or just a field comparison.  The one thing I disagree with is moving a course rating lower because a field exceeds expectations.  Not really sure how I feel about the course rating adjustment.  One minute I am for it and the next am negative towards it.  I am guessing the scoring differentials are lower than they have ever been across the board, that is at least how it looks to me.

It never was “weather”. It was always an adjustment based upon actual versus expected and it was meant to account for all sorts of variables such as weather, actual length, pin position, etc. do y’all not read these things?  It’s the best adjustment that’s been made to their system ever