Learning to avoid tournaments or not play sometimes.

[tiger1873]

6 hours ago, Pinewood Golfer said:

It never was “weather”. It was always an adjustment based upon actual versus expected and it was meant to account for all sorts of variables such as weather, actual length, pin position, etc. do y’all not read these things?  It’s the best adjustment that’s been made to their system ever

Course adjustment hurts kids who are improving. How can you say it doesn’t. 
 

This is especially true for girls where the fields are way smaller then boys. A big field is 20 girls but a lot tournaments your lucky to get 10 girls.

 

It pretty easy to see how a few girls who post a low score will effect the adjustment.  A kid working on their game should expect lower scores.  So they should expect course rating to go down if they and a few girls have a very good day.

 

There are a few high ranked girls who will play small tournaments and when they post a high score it always adjusts the field up.

 

It’s based on simple math and pretty easy to see how it works.  Someone didn’t think through the algorithm.   Adding or taking away strokes from the course rating because of how the average kids scores is stupid.

[heavy_hitter]

14 hours ago, Pinewood Golfer said:

It never was “weather”. It was always an adjustment based upon actual versus expected and it was meant to account for all sorts of variables such as weather, actual length, pin position, etc. do y’all not read these things?  It’s the best adjustment that’s been made to their system ever

 

You just contradicted yourself.  The CCA is a Course Condition Adjustment.  What is course condition?  Weather.  It is the very first thing listed on the webpage, then the other factors.  Let's change the name and call it what it is "Field Adjustment Calculator".  Course Condition suggest that the factors of Weather, Length, Pin Position, etc. are the actual indicators of adjustment.  It is not.  The adjustment is made by the quality of the field, not the Actual Course Condition.

 

Trust me, I understand why they have it.  Here is where the mistakes are.  A boy's and girl's tournament is on the same exact course, same exact conditions.   Only difference is length.  Why would the boy's get an adjustment and not the girl's or vice versa?  The title is Course Condition Adjustment.  It is not a course Condition Adjustment.  It is a strength of field calculator that adjusts the Course Rating to fit what that field should score based on the field ranking.

 

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by heavy_hitter

[leezer99]

2 hours ago, heavy_hitter said:

 

You just contradicted yourself.  The CCA is a Course Condition Adjustment.  What is course condition?  Weather.  It is the very first thing listed on the webpage, then the other factors.  Let's change the name and call it what it is "Field Adjustment Calculator".  Course Condition suggest that the factors of Weather, Length, Pin Position, etc. are the actual indicators of adjustment.  It is not.  The adjustment is made by the quality of the field, not the Actual Course Condition.

 

Trust me, I understand why they have it.  Here is where the mistakes are.  A boy's and girl's tournament is on the same exact course, same exact conditions.   Only difference is length.  Why would the boy's get an adjustment and not the girl's or vice versa?  The title is Course Condition Adjustment.  It is not a course Condition Adjustment.  It is a strength of field calculator that adjusts the Course Rating to fit what that field should score based on the field ranking.

 

 

 

The problem with JGS is their complete lack of transparency.

[tiger1873]

For those who have a hard time understanding why JGS has issues with course ratings here is a AGJA Event as an example.

 

If you look at the course ratings and adjustments it's easy to see how kids who do not break par get high rankings.

 

AJGA - Sung Hyun Park Junior Championship

Innisbrook Resort - Island

Palm Harbor, FL US

APR 02 - 04, 2021

 

 

Girls Age: Girls Round 1: Yardage: 6009 Rating: 75.4 (77.4 adj) Round 2: Yardage: 6009 Rating: 75.4 (76.4 adj) Round 3: Yardage: 6009 Rating: 75.4 (76.4 adj)     Boys Age: Boys Round 1: Yardage: 7045 Rating: 74.4 (78.4 adj) Round 2: Yardage: 7045 Rating: 74.4 (78.4 adj) Round 3: Yardage: 7045 Rating: 74.4 (76.4 adj)

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by tiger1873

[heavy_hitter]

2 hours ago, leezer99 said:

 

The problem with JGS is their complete lack of transparency.

 

I hate JGS just as much as anyone.  Have had 3 conversations on the phone about them today.  One was with an independent tournament director and the other two with parents.

 

The CCA is a big crock of crap.  This is not only my opinion, but the opinion of many.  Tournament at Mission Inn in Florida this weekend.  The course rating for the boy's was a 73.6 that was adjusted to a 76.6.  The girl's played the same course, same wind, same fairways, same pins, only difference was the length.  THEY RECEIVED ZERO adjustment for any round.  I was on a zoom call with JGS when they were explaining things, in theory it sounds great.  However, it is implemented horribly.  

 

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by heavy_hitter

[heavy_hitter]

37 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

For those who have a hard time understanding why JGS has issues with course ratings here is a AGJA Event as an example.

 

If you look at the course ratings and adjustments it's easy to see how kids who do not break par get high rankings.

 

AJGA - Sung Hyun Park Junior Championship

Innisbrook Resort - Island

Palm Harbor, FL US

APR 02 - 04, 2021

 

 

Girls Age: Girls Round 1: Yardage: 6009 Rating: 75.4 (77.4 adj) Round 2: Yardage: 6009 Rating: 75.4 (76.4 adj) Round 3: Yardage: 6009 Rating: 75.4 (76.4 adj)     Boys Age: Boys Round 1: Yardage: 7045 Rating: 74.4 (78.4 adj) Round 2: Yardage: 7045 Rating: 74.4 (78.4 adj) Round 3: Yardage: 7045 Rating: 74.4 (76.4 adj)

 

 

 

 

You are partially correct.  The course rating is the course rating as given by the USGA.  Is what it is.  The course adjustment feature is what is garbage.  The poor thing with JGS is that scoring average isn't considered into the rankings at all.  

 

You can win a tournament at one course, shoot even par on a hard course and your rankings get worse.  You can shoot 5 over in an AJGA, come in 20th and your ranking gets better.

[tiger1873]

9 minutes ago, heavy_hitter said:

 

You are partially correct.  The course rating is the course rating as given by the USGA.  Is what it is.  The course adjustment feature is what is garbage.  The poor thing with JGS is that scoring average isn't considered into the rankings at all.  

 

You can win a tournament at one course, shoot even par on a hard course and your rankings get worse.  You can shoot 5 over in an AJGA, come in 20th and your ranking gets better.

 

Totally agree the course rating is fine.   The issue I have is there adding in some cases as much as 4 strokes to what is already a hard course.

 

What is worse is we could get a similar setup with Hurricane or FJT and they wouldn't adjust it. They probably take strokes away if a few kids did well.

[Pinewood Golfer]

5 hours ago, heavy_hitter said:

 

I hate JGS just as much as anyone.  Have had 3 conversations on the phone about them today.  One was with an independent tournament director and the other two with parents.

 

The CCA is a big crock of crap.  This is not only my opinion, but the opinion of many.  Tournament at Mission Inn in Florida this weekend.  The course rating for the boy's was a 73.6 that was adjusted to a 76.6.  The girl's played the same course, same wind, same fairways, same pins, only difference was the length.  THEY RECEIVED ZERO adjustment for any round.  I was on a zoom call with JGS when they were explaining things, in theory it sounds great.  However, it is implemented horribly.  

 

 

The girls do have a disadvantage because the smaller field size means it’s more difficult, mathematically, to achieve the statistical certainty required for the adjustment to kick in. 
 

what they SHOULD do is use the larger boys field as sort of a check on the statistical significance for the girls field. In other words, if girls scores are higher than expected but not adjusted due, essentially, to field size but the boys scores are similarly higher then that should be used to “confirm” the adjustment for girls. 

[tiger1873]

If you feel the need to do any tournament because it going to make a difference remember this little bit of news posted by the AJGA.   I would say Cameron Smith has done pretty well for himself considering he only played one AJGA tournament.

 

 

 

https://www.ajga.org/social-recap/social-recap-presented-by-true-temper-january-10-2022

 

AJGA alumnus Cameron Smith made history at the Sentry Tournament of Champions. Smith entered the final round tied with Jon Rahm, the No. 1 player in the world, at 26-under-par. With Kapalua offering the best scoring conditions in the 24 years of the event, Smith knew he had to play his finest round of golf to get the win. There were plenty of fireworks in the final group on Sunday, as Smith and Rahm exchanged a total of 15 birdies over the last 18 holes. In the end however, it was Smith who edged out the win with a birdie on No. 18 for a bogey-free final round of 8-under-par 65. His tournament total of 34-under-par 258 is the most under par in a four-round PGA TOUR event in history. This is Smith's fourth PGA TOUR title.

Smith competed in one AJGA tournament during his junior golf career, finishing T23 at the 2010 Thunderbird International Junior.

[heavy_hitter]

9 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

If you feel the need to do any tournament because it going to make a difference remember this little bit of news posted by the AJGA.   I would say Cameron Smith has done pretty well for himself considering he only played one AJGA tournament.

 

 

 

https://www.ajga.org/social-recap/social-recap-presented-by-true-temper-january-10-2022

 

AJGA alumnus Cameron Smith made history at the Sentry Tournament of Champions. Smith entered the final round tied with Jon Rahm, the No. 1 player in the world, at 26-under-par. With Kapalua offering the best scoring conditions in the 24 years of the event, Smith knew he had to play his finest round of golf to get the win. There were plenty of fireworks in the final group on Sunday, as Smith and Rahm exchanged a total of 15 birdies over the last 18 holes. In the end however, it was Smith who edged out the win with a birdie on No. 18 for a bogey-free final round of 8-under-par 65. His tournament total of 34-under-par 258 is the most under par in a four-round PGA TOUR event in history. This is Smith's fourth PGA TOUR title.

Smith competed in one AJGA tournament during his junior golf career, finishing T23 at the 2010 Thunderbird International Junior.

Did Cam go to college or did he go Pro on some obscure tour?

[Abh159]

18 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

If you feel the need to do any tournament because it going to make a difference remember this little bit of news posted by the AJGA.   I would say Cameron Smith has done pretty well for himself considering he only played one AJGA tournament.

 

 

 

https://www.ajga.org/social-recap/social-recap-presented-by-true-temper-january-10-2022

 

AJGA alumnus Cameron Smith made history at the Sentry Tournament of Champions. Smith entered the final round tied with Jon Rahm, the No. 1 player in the world, at 26-under-par. With Kapalua offering the best scoring conditions in the 24 years of the event, Smith knew he had to play his finest round of golf to get the win. There were plenty of fireworks in the final group on Sunday, as Smith and Rahm exchanged a total of 15 birdies over the last 18 holes. In the end however, it was Smith who edged out the win with a birdie on No. 18 for a bogey-free final round of 8-under-par 65. His tournament total of 34-under-par 258 is the most under par in a four-round PGA TOUR event in history. This is Smith's fourth PGA TOUR title.

Smith competed in one AJGA tournament during his junior golf career, finishing T23 at the 2010 Thunderbird International Junior.

 

I have no idea what it's like now, but when I was playing it wasn't uncommon for international kids (who actually live internationally) to only play in the Thunderbird each year. They would usually reserve 1/3 or 1/2 of the invitations for international players, and that was usually the only event they played all year.

[tiger1873]

Just now, heavy_hitter said:

Did Cam go to college or did he go Pro on some obscure tour?

 

He was born in 1993 so he was  around 17 at the time he played the AJGA tournament.     In the years that followed he did do well at Amateur Events and seems to have kept getting better.

 

I didn't see a college listed on any of his Bio's but that didn't say he didn't go.  I am guessing he didn't stand out much as a junior at all.   You never know who is going to have what it takes in the future.

 

I couldn't find the 2010 results online but it would be interesting to see that field and where they are today.

 

 

 

 

[tiger1873]

3 minutes ago, Abh159 said:

 

I have no idea what it's like now, but when I was playing it wasn't uncommon for international kids (who actually live internationally) to only play in the Thunderbird each year. They would usually reserve 1/3 or 1/2 of the invitations for international players, and that was usually the only event they played all year.

 

 

I would assume any international kid who plays in AJGA even today has had some level of success in their home country. The thing is when I look at his BIO most what is listed is what he did as an amateur and pro. This leads me to believe his success came later after he was a junior and over 18.  

 

The thing that gets me is some Junior Parents will do anything to play in events.  There are certain events they have to play because this player won or entered into the event.  Most of the top juniors out there peak as Juniors.  You really want to peak in your 20's because you make money not when you are 12.

[leezer99]

Cam is Australian.  Why would you think he'd have played in a predominantly US based tour?  How many AJGA events did Hideki, Rahm or Sungjae play in? I bet you could count them on one hand.  What a stupid correlation to try and make.

[tiger1873]

14 minutes ago, leezer99 said:

Cam is Australian.  Why would you think he'd have played in a predominantly US based tour?  How many AJGA events did Hideki, Rahm or Sungjae play in? I bet you could count them on one hand.  What a stupid correlation to try and make.

 

Australia has about 25 million people in it.  The highest level of completion is like more like Texas or Florida State competitions.I believe Karl Vilips was sent to the US and he would be an example of Junior with a great Junior career from Australia.

 

The best juniors all come to the US and play AJGA and other US events because our events are just better and have more competition.  He also placed 23rd which is not really that great for an event. Granted it was only 1 event and I don't have the scores he did.  

 

Also you should understand Australia and lot countries have international teams which pay a lot money to juniors who then travel to the US to play events.  There is no reason to not go after that money if your from a country that has it.

 

 

[Movingday]

Man it’s like a ping pong match in his head. Ideas are all over the place. 

[Kcct82]

[BloctonGolf11]

50 minutes ago, Movingday said:

Man it’s like a ping pong match in his head. Ideas are all over the place. 

Not a good analogy because ping pong makes sense. 

[kekoa]

6 hours ago, BloctonGolf11 said:

Not a good analogy because ping pong makes sense. 

Yowzers!!!!🤣

[BloctonGolf11]

18 hours ago, kekoa said:

Yowzers!!!!🤣

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

Bottom Line @tiger1873tell a "Top 20" Div 1 as a freshman this tournament doesn't fit you or you will avoid it.

 

Yes - If its a crap course and they are charging $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for it.

No - It's it hard and will affect my rankings.  Then the golfer is a vanity.  Learn to hold a cut against 20 mph winds.

Yes - Bad experience with the tournament director.

No - To many hills or narrow fairways.

 

[tiger1873]

1 hour ago, TripleBogeysrbetter said:

Bottom Line @tiger1873tell a "Top 20" Div 1 as a freshman this tournament doesn't fit you or you will avoid it.

 

Yes - If its a crap course and they are charging $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for it.

No - It's it hard and will affect my rankings.  Then the golfer is a vanity.  Learn to hold a cut against 20 mph winds.

Yes - Bad experience with the tournament director.

No - To many hills or narrow fairways.

 

 

 

 

No one cares if you don't play something.  They only care about what you actually played in.  Why would you play in conditions and courses that are not tournament ready?????

 

Do you really think the highest ranked  kids play in tournaments that have bad conditions for no reason.  When they do play in the winter it is on courses that can handle tournaments that time of year.  I see tournaments in Pinehurst in January. Who does that????  You know the conditions are terrible.

 

The only kids that play in dormant winter conditions and like are ones who can't hit very far they like the extra roll they get and can pretend they drive the ball far.

Edited January 13, 2022 by tiger1873

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

2 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

 

 

 

No cares if you don't play something.  They only care about what you actually played in.  Why would you play in conditions that are not tournament ready?????

 

Do you really think the highest ranked  play in tournaments that have bad conditions for no reason.  When they do play in the winter it on courses that can handle tournaments that time of year.

Re-Read.

Yes (as in yes you would avoid it) - If its a crap course and they are charging $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for it.

No (as in no you wouldn'y avoid it) - It's it hard and will affect my rankings.  Then the golfer is a vanity.  Learn to hold a cut against 20 mph winds.

 

So Saturday sunny and 75 perfect conditions.

Sunday 65 and 2 inches of rain.  Kids being pulled?  Can't affect the rankings, right?

[tiger1873]

Just now, TripleBogeysrbetter said:

Re-Read.

Yes (as in yes you would avoid it) - If its a crap course and they are charging $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for it.

No (as in no you wouldn'y avoid it) - It's it hard and will affect my rankings.  Then the golfer is a vanity.  Learn to hold a cut against 20 mph winds.

 

So Saturday sunny and 75 perfect conditions.

Sunday 65 and 2 inches of rain.  Kids being pulled?  Can't affect the rankings, right?

 

Crap course no one signs up for

 

You want to play a wide variety of courses at least that is my opinion.  If you happen to score bad on a pete dye course then avoid you should avoid playing any tournaments on his courses.   That just part of tournament planning.   What is hard for one player may be easy to another.

 

65 degrees and rain is not a big deal  But do you stay around when there is a tropical storm forecasted for the next day?  You would think the tournament director will cancel it but they don't always. 

[Bizzle80]

We only play courses if its convenient for Dad to get to...and in Los Angeles that's not many. Most USK events are in the burbs and the SCGA events are no caddy for my daughters age. I am not trying to stand around at some dog track for 5.5 hours.

[leezer99]

7 hours ago, Bizzle80 said:

We only play courses if its convenient for Dad to get to...and in Los Angeles that's not many. Most USK events are in the burbs and the SCGA events are no caddy for my daughters age. I am not trying to stand around at some dog track for 5.5 hours.

On the SCPGA, Buenaventura, Los Robles and San Dimas are decent.  You can get a spectator badge for $2 and follow. For US Kids I’d stick to the Ventura courses. 

[Bizzle80]

We have tried all the usk SoCal courses. Sticking w those just because it’s fun to caddy for her as we get to hang. Really dislike Los Robles though…some weird tee boxes for younger kids. 

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

Finally a teenager with her licenses and live scoring.  No more rounds within an hour for me.