Pano going pro

[heavy_hitter]

17 hours ago, Shilgy said:

I was agreeing with post I replied to.  While I agree the market determines their pay structure they are certainly lowly paid based on relative talent.  But in professional  sports all that matters in general is the number of eyeballs watching. And in that regard they are miles behind the men.

 

Which brings up a question….how do the ladies and Korn Ferry attendance compare?  You very rarely see them on television so a vast majority of their income must be money siphoned from the big tour?  So it’s not always merit based.

Isn't the Korn Ferry part of the PGA?  I would assume supplemented through the PGA.

[heavy_hitter]

12 hours ago, MB19 said:

Going into my senior year of basketball, I agreed to keep stats for the coach who did double-duty as both boys and girls varsity head coach.  The girls played in the fall, the boys the winter as is common in the midwest.  I had several close friends on that team, not to mention my coach, and it was still a challenge to stay interested at times.  Basketball was my first love, but after half of the season my eyes glazed over having to sit through (and keep track!) games where scoring 60 points via a slow-motion flex offense may as well have been landing on the moon.  

 

Now, I get that WNBA basketball is much better competition with bigger and faster athletes--but still, even for a basketball junky it is very difficult to watch.

 

Compared that to LPGA or even girls junior golf, I'll pick the golf product all day.  The distances hit may be different, but a well-struck wedge is fun to watch no matter who hits it IMO.  Ditto for good putting.

 

I would pay to watch LPGA tournaments, I would have to be paid decently or know someone on the team to go see a WNBA game (or the equivalent Euro/Asian/Aussie product).

 

I look at the LPGA the same way as I do MLB.  I will watch the highlights on ESPN.  I will pay to go watch a game.  I am not watching it on TV.  It is a giant snoozefest.

 

I keep up with junior golf and kids more than the LPGA.  It is more fun and interesting.  Just like I showed up to watch your daughter in the past.  Several parents on this forum and I keep up with their daughters every time they play.  As for as the LPGA or MLB goes, unless you are in person watching, it is nap time.

[MB19]

3 minutes ago, heavy_hitter said:

 

I look at the LPGA the same way as I do MLB.  I will watch the highlights on ESPN.  I will pay to go watch a game.  I am not watching it on TV.  It is a giant snoozefest.

 

I keep up with junior golf and kids more than the LPGA.  It is more fun and interesting.  Just like I showed up to watch your daughter in the past.  Several parents on this forum and I keep up with their daughters every time they play.  As for as the LPGA or MLB goes, unless you are in person watching, it is nap time.

Don’t get me wrong, watching LPGA isn’t any kind of priority for me.  Just WNBA is a priority for me to miss.

[heavy_hitter]

Just now, MB19 said:

Don’t get me wrong, watching LPGA isn’t any kind of priority for me.  Just WNBA is a priority for me to miss.

I coached girl's basketball back in the day.  You couldn't pay me to sit through a WNBA game.  I will at least turn on the LPGA every now and then, until my wife tells me to turn the station or I fall asleep and she changes it.

 

At the end of the day, it comes down to the product.

 

 

[mikedellgolf]

5 minutes ago, heavy_hitter said:

I coached girl's basketball back in the day.  You couldn't pay me to sit through a WNBA game.  I will at least turn on the LPGA every now and then, until my wife tells me to turn the station or I fall asleep and she changes it.

 

At the end of the day, it comes down to the product.

 

 

At the end of the day, the LPGA is not very interesting to watch.  That translates not a lot of endorsements.

[capking]

13 minutes ago, mikedellgolf said:

At the end of the day, the LPGA is not very interesting to watch.  That translates not a lot of endorsements.

They seem to have changed their schedule and plan around bigger PGA events (could be my imagination) but the LPGA this past weekend was better than the Mexico open

[BloctonGolf11]

I know I am the outlier but personally I enjoy the WNBA and LPGA. The WNBA is much closer to what basketball was designed to be as a sport and much closer to the 1980s heyday of the NBA before everything became about ISO, no defense, and shooting 35' three pointers. The LPGA is fun to watch for me because it is not so centered around the tee game, their approach games are incredible, and I find a lot of the women's stories to be fascinating.

[mikedellgolf]

4 minutes ago, capking said:

They seem to have changed their schedule and plan around bigger PGA events (could be my imagination) but the LPGA this past weekend was better than the Mexico open

You must be kidding right? 

 

4 minutes ago, capking said:

They seem to have changed their schedule and plan around bigger PGA events (could be my imagination) but the LPGA this past weekend was better than the Mexico open

You must be kidding, right?  I watched both the LPGA and PGA this past weekend and you couldn't pay me enough to watch the LPGA.  The number play tennis player on the WTA tour, Iga Swiatek, would easily lose 6-0, 6-0 to a D1 college players.   I like Lydia Ko but Jon Rahm is a much better player.

[mikedellgolf]

3 minutes ago, BloctonGolf11 said:

I know I am the outlier but personally I enjoy the WNBA and LPGA. The WNBA is much closer to what basketball was designed to be as a sport and much closer to the 1980s heyday of the NBA before everything became about ISO, no defense, and shooting 35' three pointers. The LPGA is fun to watch for me because it is not so centered around the tee game, their approach games are incredible, and I find a lot of the women's stories to be fascinating.

Yes, you would be an outlier because there aren't many eyeballs for LPGA events.  The same with the WNBA.  WNBA is being subsidized by the NBA.

[heavy_hitter]

1 minute ago, mikedellgolf said:

Yes, you would be an outlier because there aren't many eyeballs for LPGA events.  The same with the WNBA.  WNBA is being subsidized by the NBA.

To be fair, the NBA is pretty boring as well.  Watching the Celtics and Bucks last night as well as part of the game on Sunday.  It is 3 pointers or shots in the paint.  The team that makes the most 3 pointers is going to win.  Defense is lacking.  There is a reason why the NBA was fun to watch in the 80's to the mid to late 90's.  Reminds me of a great song "Let the Bodies Hit the Floor" and it made the game fun.  NBA now protects the players. Jordan would average 50 a game in this era.

[BloctonGolf11]

1 minute ago, heavy_hitter said:

To be fair, the NBA is pretty boring as well.  Watching the Celtics and Bucks last night as well as part of the game on Sunday.  It is 3 pointers or shots in the paint.  The team that makes the most 3 pointers is going to win.  Defense is lacking.  There is a reason why the NBA was fun to watch in the 80's to the mid to late 90's.  Reminds me of a great song "Let the Bodies Hit the Floor" and it made the game fun.  NBA now protects the players. Jordan would average 50 a game in this era.

Analytics and Steph Curry ruined the NBA and it has trickled down to all facets. You go to high school gyms and all you see are fogged up 3s by kids with zero mid range fundamentals. 

[mikedellgolf]

19 minutes ago, heavy_hitter said:

To be fair, the NBA is pretty boring as well.  Watching the Celtics and Bucks last night as well as part of the game on Sunday.  It is 3 pointers or shots in the paint.  The team that makes the most 3 pointers is going to win.  Defense is lacking.  There is a reason why the NBA was fun to watch in the 80's to the mid to late 90's.  Reminds me of a great song "Let the Bodies Hit the Floor" and it made the game fun.  NBA now protects the players. Jordan would average 50 a game in this era.

I don't know.  I certainly wouldn't want a repeat of the "Detroit bad boys".  Just ugly basketball with the intention to hurt other players.

 

If the NBA is pretty boring, why are they raking in so much money?  The NBA must be doing something right, IMO.

 

 

[heavy_hitter]

11 minutes ago, mikedellgolf said:

I don't know.  I certainly wouldn't want a repeat of the "Detroit bad boys".  Just ugly basketball with the intention to hurt other players.

 

If the NBA is pretty boring, why are they raking in so much money?  The NBA must be doing something right, IMO.

 

 

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/071415/how-nba-makes-money.asp

 

 

[Medson]

1 hour ago, BloctonGolf11 said:

The LPGA is fun to watch for me because it is not so centered around the tee game, their approach games are incredible, and I find a lot of the women's stories to be fascinating.

+1. I’d watch LPGA events on TV instead of some lower tier PGA Tour tournaments. Heck, I’d watch college golf on TV when Golf Channel broadcasts them. 
 

Completely off the topic. 😂

[Bizzle80]

23 hours ago, mikedellgolf said:

Have you ever been to a WNBA game in person vs. an NBA game in person?  Have you ever been to a tennis match where both the ATP and WTA event are held in the same place?  Very few people watch the women match while the men match is always crowded.

 

My employer gave away WNBA ticket to employees for free but got very few takers.  Employees have to buy NBA tickets and those tickets are sold out within 5 minutes after the announcement.

 

 

 

Not sure why I am responding to your post, because you clearly are not reading or understanding the point of my post.

 

Viewership and money is often about much more than 'excitement level' of the game being played. Of course NBA athletes are faster and more exciting than WNBA...but its the network ownership/interest and in turn the promotion of the league that drives the dollars. 

 

Per YOUR argument, the viewership and interest for the top women is actually MORE than the mens game and its because of the promotion levels. Once networks in the late 70's decided it was exciting to push attractive young women playing tennis, the viewership and interest rose and now its more popular than the mens side. The pay gap in tennis is minimal now, with the grand slams paying equal dollars.

 

WNBA ratings are on the rise as NBA ratings decline, partially because ESPN has a vested interest in growing the WNBA and growing the ad dollars of a league they have tv rights to. The new womens soccer team in LA has been promoted heavily and play in the same stadium as the men...and surprise surprise have sold out their home games.

 

There is an incredible historic bias against womens sports - just look at the US National Soccer teams. The women are multiple time World Cup champs, double the mens tv ratings and merchandise sales - yet still are paid less. That blows up the argument of 'they get paid less because no one watches' - which is why the USWNT had to sue their own federation...

 

I am not saying the women deserve more money 'just because'...I am saying that its a much more complicated argument because they aren't getting the promotional push that they should be. Again, look at how diversity was treated in tv and movies...once the studios started producing shows/movies with diverse casts the money and ratings have flowed. I would expect once they start committing to the womens game it will be the same.

 

Side note* Take advantage of local LPGA, WNBA, NWSL or other womens sports events if in your town...cheaper, better access to players and honestly in person always super fun. I am lucky to be in LA where we host the LPGA at my club, we have season tix to the new Angel City womens soccer team (in an awesome stadium - same as the men!) and actually have gone to several WNBA games (you can sit near courtside for pennies compared to Laker games).

 

 

 

[heavy_hitter]

9 minutes ago, Bizzle80 said:

 

 

Not sure why I am responding to your post, because you clearly are not reading or understanding the point of my post.

 

Viewership and money is often about much more than 'excitement level' of the game being played. Of course NBA athletes are faster and more exciting than WNBA...but its the network ownership/interest and in turn the promotion of the league that drives the dollars. 

 

Per YOUR argument, the viewership and interest for the top women is actually MORE than the mens game and its because of the promotion levels. Once networks in the late 70's decided it was exciting to push attractive young women playing tennis, the viewership and interest rose and now its more popular than the mens side. The pay gap in tennis is minimal now, with the grand slams paying equal dollars.

 

WNBA ratings are on the rise as NBA ratings decline, partially because ESPN has a vested interest in growing the WNBA and growing the ad dollars of a league they have tv rights to. The new womens soccer team in LA has been promoted heavily and play in the same stadium as the men...and surprise surprise have sold out their home games.

 

There is an incredible historic bias against womens sports - just look at the US National Soccer teams. The women are multiple time World Cup champs, double the mens tv ratings and merchandise sales - yet still are paid less. That blows up the argument of 'they get paid less because no one watches' - which is why the USWNT had to sue their own federation...

 

I am not saying the women deserve more money 'just because'...I am saying that its a much more complicated argument because they aren't getting the promotional push that they should be. Again, look at how diversity was treated in tv and movies...once the studios started producing shows/movies with diverse casts the money and ratings have flowed. I would expect once they start committing to the womens game it will be the same.

 

Side note* Take advantage of local LPGA, WNBA, NWSL or other womens sports events if in your town...cheaper, better access to players and honestly in person always super fun. I am lucky to be in LA where we host the LPGA at my club, we have season tix to the new Angel City womens soccer team (in an awesome stadium - same as the men!) and actually have gone to several WNBA games (you can sit near courtside for pennies compared to Laker games).

 

 

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-soccer-says-womens-national-team-paid-more-than-the-men/

[Bizzle80]

I actually find watching the LPGA much more interesting than the week to week PGA events outside of majors and bigger events. There really aren't many likable PGA pros for me...and the higher stakes - in terms of winning actually meaning something to the women is exciting.

 

Marina Alex won this week and you know how important that actually is for her...literally probably a financial lifeline. Great, Jon Rahm won some off-week PGA and we know it really doesn't mean much.

 

One of the issues for watchability on TV, is that the LPGA doesn't get the same production values as the PGA...so you don't get all the analytics, you don't get shot tracers on every hole, multiple camera views on every hole, all the added content that really makes the PGA more interesting on TV.

 

If we are talking WNBA I was a super NON fan until I actually went to a game. Obviously different than the mens side (and I love me some NBA action) but was surprisingly fun. Probably not watching on TV, but better quality than I expected. some of the women have some pretty sick handles which I did not expect.

[Bizzle80]

3 minutes ago, heavy_hitter said:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-soccer-says-womens-national-team-paid-more-than-the-men/

 

That was the Federations argument, but on a per game basis and their bonuses for winning were drastically lower then the mens side. From the article:

 

"The USSF fact sheet is not a "clarification." It is a ruse. Here is what they cannot deny. For every game a man plays on the MNT he makes a higher base salary payment than a woman on the WNT. For every comparable win or tie, his bonus is higher. That is the very definition of gender discrimination,"

[capking]

6 hours ago, heavy_hitter said:

To be fair, the NBA is pretty boring as well.  Watching the Celtics and Bucks last night as well as part of the game on Sunday.  It is 3 pointers or shots in the paint.  The team that makes the most 3 pointers is going to win.  Defense is lacking.  There is a reason why the NBA was fun to watch in the 80's to the mid to late 90's.  Reminds me of a great song "Let the Bodies Hit the Floor" and it made the game fun.  NBA now protects the players. Jordan would average 50 a game in this era.

Watch the NHL playoffs tonight, super fast and lots of hits. 

[heavy_hitter]

7 minutes ago, capking said:

Watch the NHL playoffs tonight, super fast and lots of hits. 

[capking]

20 minutes ago, heavy_hitter said:

Well not them haha

[JDee1935]

Kind of interesting. 

  I think everyone here would agree that Nelli Korda is the benchmark for USA pros. The level any new, young player aspires to reach.

  Below, is her overview as 17 year old, advanced through Q school as far as she could, denied Q series access because of age.

  Questions??

 

Does anyone think she would be at this stage had she gone to college?

Her improvement in first 4 years was strong [ especially year 3 and further]. Would college have held her back?

 

Interesting discussion. I do not think she'd be where she is had she attended college more than 1 year.

 

https://www.epsontour.com/players/nelly korda/98350/overview

[Shilgy]

On 5/4/2022 at 7:10 AM, heavy_hitter said:

To be fair, the NBA is pretty boring as well.  Watching the Celtics and Bucks last night as well as part of the game on Sunday.  It is 3 pointers or shots in the paint.  The team that makes the most 3 pointers is going to win.  Defense is lacking.  There is a reason why the NBA was fun to watch in the 80's to the mid to late 90's.  Reminds me of a great song "Let the Bodies Hit the Floor" and it made the game fun.  NBA now protects the players. Jordan would average 50 a game in this era.

If that’s the way you feel watch the Phoenix Suns game tonight.  Great D and a lot of mid range jump shots.

[Shilgy]

14 hours ago, Shilgy said:

If that’s the way you feel watch the Phoenix Suns game tonight.  Great D and a lot of mid range jump shots.

@heavy_hitter  Might be the only time I’ve replied to myself…..but last nights game definitely WAS NOT a good example!🤬

[Shilgy]

On 5/7/2022 at 7:19 AM, Shilgy said:

@heavy_hitter  Might be the only time I’ve replied to myself…..but last nights game definitely WAS NOT a good example!🤬

@heavy_hitterI’ll do it again….neither was Sundays game.  Now it’s a series.

[MB19]

3 hours ago, Shilgy said:

@heavy_hitterI’ll do it again….neither was Sundays game.  Now it’s a series.

I hate to speak for @heavy_hitter, but one of the things we have discussed missing in the pro game is the absence of the post-up big man... and further, the absence of the one-on-one low post play by NBA 4s and 5s that made the 80s and 90s special to some (many?) of us.  Perhaps, as time goes on, these battles will be seen as basketball's version of having two hockey enforcers square off vs one another at least once per game--but it was such an important part of that era.

[Shilgy]

3 minutes ago, MB19 said:

I hate to speak for @heavy_hitter, but one of the things we have discussed missing in the pro game is the absence of the post-up big man... and further, the absence of the one-on-one low post play by NBA 4s and 5s that made the 80s and 90s special to some (many?) of us.  Perhaps, as time goes on, these battles will be seen as basketball's version of having two hockey enforcers square off vs one another at least once per game--but it was such an important part of that era.

I wonder what it would take for the game to revert to that though?  It’s not like there’s no centers of the type you crave….Jokic and Embiid in particular…..but perhaps that style is no longer favored at least partly because it is no longer effective?  Even the two best that I mentioned score many of their points further out.  

 

[heavy_hitter]

1 minute ago, Shilgy said:

I wonder what it would take for the game to revert to that though?  It’s not like there’s no centers of the type you crave….Jokic and Embiid in particular…..but perhaps that style is no longer favored at least partly because it is no longer effective?  Even the two best that I mentioned score many of their points further out.  

 

There is a lack of skill in the post because everyone wants to be a SG or SF.  Young coaches do not understand how to teach the post anymore.  That style will always be effective.  No one now could guard Olojuwon, Kareem, The Admiral, Shaq, Duncam.  Of course, no one could guard them then either.  The Euro game sneaked into America and it is brutally boring.  No one will ever convince me the Euro Step is not a travel.  Fundamentals are lacking.

[MB19]

On 5/9/2022 at 3:56 PM, Shilgy said:

I wonder what it would take for the game to revert to that though?  It’s not like there’s no centers of the type you crave….Jokic and Embiid in particular…..but perhaps that style is no longer favored at least partly because it is no longer effective?  Even the two best that I mentioned score many of their points further out.  

 

Perhaps it sounds simplistic, but it would take the zone defense being "outlawed" again to make the NBA pivot truly important again.

 

Jokic, Embiid and KAT all have great skill sets but none have the low post game of the centers of yesteryear.  These guys are face-the-basket bigs, in the mold of Sheed, Kevin Garnett, Gasol bros, etc...  There's nothing wrong with that, but nobody will confuse a Garnett/Pau battle with Ewing/Parrish, Olajuwon/Admiral, or Shaq/Zo.  The level of physicality--strength vs strength--when battling on the block is gone and unless there are rule changes it's never coming back.  It is very difficult to center a team around low-post play when you have to deal with NBA athletes playing zone defense.  Their arms are too long, athletic ability is too great.

 

Of course, young big men would be a little foolish to build themselves into low-post monsters if they wanted to play NBA ball.  There was once even a time when 6'5 and 6'6 forwards like Adrian Dantley, Mark Aguirre and Charles Barkley could win scoring titles, become all-stars and even HOF players with a heavy dose of low-post basketball.  Not anymore.  Those skills are going the way of the stolen base in baseball.

 

 

On 5/9/2022 at 4:01 PM, heavy_hitter said:

There is a lack of skill in the post because everyone wants to be a SG or SF.  Young coaches do not understand how to teach the post anymore.  That style will always be effective.  No one now could guard Olojuwon, Kareem, The Admiral, Shaq, Duncam.  Of course, no one could guard them then either.  The Euro game sneaked into America and it is brutally boring.  No one will ever convince me the Euro Step is not a travel.  Fundamentals are lacking.

At this point, they might as well adopt the FIBA key.

Edited May 10, 2022 by MB19

[leezer99]

Looks like Pano qualified for the US Women’s Open. Stock is definitely rising.