Impact of match play on handicap

[wswail]

I have argued against allowing match play scores to be used in handicap. In my own calculations based on my scores, my handicap increases by 1.6 points when match play is considered. This is for many of the reasons already posted: Superman shots; pick ups. You don't play match play the same way you play stroke play. Thus, it should be included. That is my personal view; my club rules it differently and I believe they are wrong including these scores as it effectively "sandbags" handicap systems. Meanwhile, we are requested to hand in eight (8) signed/attested scorecards before events, which flies in the face of the match play inclusion. One or the other, folks. 

[davep043]

3 hours ago, wswail said:

I have argued against allowing match play scores to be used in handicap. In my own calculations based on my scores, my handicap increases by 1.6 points when match play is considered. This is for many of the reasons already posted: Superman shots; pick ups. You don't play match play the same way you play stroke play. Thus, it should be included. That is my personal view; my club rules it differently and I believe they are wrong including these scores as it effectively "sandbags" handicap systems. Meanwhile, we are requested to hand in eight (8) signed/attested scorecards before events, which flies in the face of the match play inclusion. One or the other, folks. 

Whether Match Play scores are considered for handicap calculation isn't a club issue, but an issue decided for your region or country.  In the USA, the USGA has determined that match play scores must be submitted, other parts of the world specifically exclude all match play scores.  Similarly, the issue of attestation is handled on a national or regional basis, some countries have a process to require it, USGA doesn't require attestation.  

[Newby]

Isn't the aspect of 'Most Likely Score' a strong temptation for manipulation?

[davep043]

9 minutes ago, Newby said:

Isn't the aspect of 'Most Likely Score' a strong temptation for manipulation?

It certainly could be, for a dishonest player.  The same applies to the lack of attestation requirements.  But I don't have a choice, I'm required to follow the rules in effect in my country, so I'll continue to post my match play scores, and to use Most Likely Score honestly.  

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

It certainly could be, for a dishonest player.  The same applies to the lack of attestation requirements.  But I don't have a choice, I'm required to follow the rules in effect in my country, so I'll continue to post my match play scores, and to use Most Likely Score honestly.  

 

So you guys in USGA jurisdiction still HAVE to post all your scores while the rest of the world follows a different principle?

 

Well, so much for global WHS, everybody wanted to have THEIR features included.

[nsxguy]

4 hours ago, wswail said:

I have argued against allowing match play scores to be used in handicap. In my own calculations based on my scores, my handicap increases by 1.6 points when match play is considered. This is for many of the reasons already posted: Superman shots; pick ups. You don't play match play the same way you play stroke play. Thus, it should be included. That is my personal view; my club rules it differently and I believe they are wrong including these scores as it effectively "sandbags" handicap systems. Meanwhile, we are requested to hand in eight (8) signed/attested scorecards before events, which flies in the face of the match play inclusion. One or the other, folks. 

 

Not sure where you're from but it sounds like the USA.

 

So, while of course you're entitled to your view, the USGA says they all count,,,,,,, and your club is properly following the handicapping rules.

 

I'm thinking the "Superman shots" and "pickups" you mention kinda sorta opposites, even out. Anyway, the USGA has a lot more experience at this than you and I so I guess, at least on this, I'll go with them.

 

I'm really not sure what "Meanwhile, we are requested to hand in eight (8) signed/attested scorecards before events, which flies in the face of the match play inclusion" so I guess I can't comment on that.

[RCGA]

Match play is far to erratic to have a postable score

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

Well, so much for global WHS, everybody wanted to have THEIR features included.

 

It's still far more similar — and getting closer — than it used to be.

[North Butte]

I know plenty of people who would virtually never post a score if they didn't post from their 4BBB matches. Not everyone considers "golf" to consist of stroke play tournaments. 

[rogolf]

9 minutes ago, North Butte said:

I know plenty of people who would virtually never post a score if they didn't post from their 4BBB matches. Not everyone considers "golf" to consist of stroke play tournaments. 

Very true!  In many regular foursomes, 4BBB is the only game played.  Playing individual stroke play in a foursome is very tedious and boring. (I'm using the colloquial meaning of "foursome", not the Rules meaning.)

[davep043]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

while the rest of the world follows a different principle

From what I've read, the USA isn't the only jurisdiction that accepts match play scores for handicap purposes.  And while I don't know what direction it will take, I feel certain that the current WHS will continue to evolve.

[North Butte]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

Very true!  In many regular foursomes, 4BBB is the only game played.  Playing individual stroke play in a foursome is very tedious and boring. (I'm using the colloquial meaning of "foursome", not the Rules meaning.)

Agreed.

 

Anything with more interest and variety than plodding along for 18 holes counting up your strokes and comparing at the end is preferable in my book. I much prefer the dynamic of team games where on any given hole I might have to step up and bail my partner out or vice versa. 

 

Or even the "best one two three" type thing where there's a foursome (American definition!) and you count one best ball on the Par 5's, two on the Par 4's, three on the Par 3's or vice versa. Just something to mix things up a bit from hole to hole. 

[rogolf]

45 minutes ago, davep043 said:

From what I've read, the USA isn't the only jurisdiction that accepts match play scores for handicap purposes.  And while I don't know what direction it will take, I feel certain that the current WHS will continue to evolve.

Canada also requires match play scores to be submitted for handicap purposes.

[nsxguy]

21 hours ago, RCGA said:

Match play is far to erratic to have a postable score

 

Sorry, can't agree with that at all.

 

MY opinion only,,,,,,,,,,, but I think there is FAR more variance in a player's last 20 scores than there is between their match play and stroke play scores.

 

Stroke play will have players avoiding the "big number",,,,,,, but match play players, at the very least until the match gets "out of hand", are playing "fairways and greens"; essentially the same game.

 

In a match, will a player take a foolish risk ? Sure, but only when, without taking such a risk, he'd clearly lose the hole. ESPECIALLY with amateurs, that doesn't happen nearly that often. Can you say "chunk", "skull", "flub", "Shank" ?

 

And the risk taker's capped at net double anyway, so, just as in stroke play, he can't easily 'bag on any single hole.

 

Net-net, stroke, or match play, we're not talking much, if any, difference in score. And, since only 8 of 20 rounds are being counted towards one's 'cap I'm guessing the variance ain't much.

Edited August 1, 2023 by nsxguy

[North Butte]

3 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Sorry, can't agree with that at all.

 

MY opinion only,,,,,,,,,,, but I think there is FAR more variance in a player's last 20 scores than there is between their match play and stroke play scores.

 

Stroke play will have players avoiding the "big number",,,,,,, but match play players, at the very least until the match gets "out of hand", are playing "fairways and greens"; essentially the same game.

 

In a match, will a player take a foolish risk ? Sure, but only when, without taking such a risk, he'd clearly lose the hole. ESPECIALLY with amateurs, that doesn't happen nearly that often. Can't you say "chunk", "skull", "flub", "Shank" ?

 

And the risk taker's capped at net double anyway, so, just as in stroke play, he can't easily 'bag on any single hole.

 

Net-net, stroke, or match play, we're not talking much, if any, difference in score. And, since only 8 of 20 rounds are being counted towards one's 'cap I'm guessing the variance ain't much.

When I read stuff like @RCGA's comment about wild match play scores, it's the kind of thing where I realize how limited my golf experience is. I can't remember anyone I've played a match against (head to head or 4BBB) who is out there playing crazy, wild shots or running up strings of NDB-max holes because they're hoping for miracles. Or who can shoot lights-out low because their partner is backing them up with net pars. 

 

I'm with you. As long as you make a good faith effort to record either "most likely" or NDB (whichever is lower) when you pick up because you're out of a hole, there's just nothing in it between match play and stroke play posted scores on average. 

[Augster]

16 hours ago, North Butte said:

When I read stuff like @RCGA's comment about wild match play scores, it's the kind of thing where I realize how limited my golf experience is. I can't remember anyone I've played a match against (head to head or 4BBB) who is out there playing crazy, wild shots or running up strings of NDB-max holes because they're hoping for miracles. Or who can shoot lights-out low because their partner is backing them up with net pars. 

 

I'm with you. As long as you make a good faith effort to record either "most likely" or NDB (whichever is lower) when you pick up because you're out of a hole, there's just nothing in it between match play and stroke play posted scores on average. 

Agree with both of you. 
 

While he says his cap is 1.6 higher when match play scores are added in, if true, I’d argue he’s not playing match play correctly and is a crappy partner with that much variance. No offense. 
 

I’d suggest he change strategies, play a little more conservative, and win more holes and matches. Doing so will bring his match play scores more in line with his stroke play scores. 
 

Don’t get me started on posting pure skins game scores though. 🙂

[Mr. Bean]

19 hours ago, davep043 said:

From what I've read, the USA isn't the only jurisdiction that accepts match play scores for handicap purposes. 

 

That is not what I wrote. My post was about mandatory posting, not Match Play scores.

[Mr. Bean]

18 hours ago, rogolf said:

Canada also requires match play scores to be submitted for handicap purposes.

 

Requires or accepts? If requires, do they also require stroke play scores to be submitted, as in USGA area?

[davep043]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

That is not what I wrote. My post was about mandatory posting, not Match Play scores.

From Section 1.3(i) of the Rules of Handicapping, the player is expected to:

"Submit acceptable scores for handicap purposes as soon as possible after the round is completed and before midnight local time,"

So yes, we're required to post all acceptable scores.  I'd love to have the flexibility to play a casual round of golf under the Rules, and have it posted only if I've pre-registered to post it.  For better or for worse, we don't have that.  I'd certainly support a change in that direction for future revisions, I'm not sure that too many US golfers would agree with me.

[Mr. Bean]

10 minutes ago, davep043 said:

From Section 1.3(i) of the Rules of Handicapping, the player is expected to:

"Submit acceptable scores for handicap purposes as soon as possible after the round is completed and before midnight local time,"

So yes, we're required to post all acceptable scores.  I'd love to have the flexibility to play a casual round of golf under the Rules, and have it posted only if I've pre-registered to post it.  For better or for worse, we don't have that.  I'd certainly support a change in that direction for future revisions, I'm not sure that too many US golfers would agree with me.

 

Yeah well, people tend to resist change and what has "always" been is the only right thing to be 😁

[Long_Left]

20 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Sorry, can't agree with that at all.

 

MY opinion only,,,,,,,,,,, but I think there is FAR more variance in a player's last 20 scores than there is between their match play and stroke play scores.

 

Stroke play will have players avoiding the "big number",,,,,,, but match play players, at the very least until the match gets "out of hand", are playing "fairways and greens"; essentially the same game.

 

In a match, will a player take a foolish risk ? Sure, but only when, without taking such a risk, he'd clearly lose the hole. ESPECIALLY with amateurs, that doesn't happen nearly that often. Can you say "chunk", "skull", "flub", "Shank" ?

 

And the risk taker's capped at net double anyway, so, just as in stroke play, he can't easily 'bag on any single hole.

 

Net-net, stroke, or match play, we're not talking much, if any, difference in score. And, since only 8 of 20 rounds are being counted towards one's 'cap I'm guessing the variance ain't much.

In the time this thread lay dormant, I find that this is the correct take. If I'm pressing late in a round and making risky decisions it means I'm already down, and that (typically) means I'm not scoring great, relatively speaking. It's rather rare to have the guys in my regular group all on track to play net under par on the same day. My best finish over the last year or so in stroke play events is a 2nd place in brutal wind. I'm confident that my index is accurate.

[mark m]

Q: If the players intention is to pad his handicap when given an opportunity, what format of play - other than playing for nothing - provides the most opportunities?

 

A: Fourball match play and skins games.

 

If you try hard all the time, there is probably not much difference. 

[rogolf]

5 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Requires or accepts? If requires, do they also require stroke play scores to be submitted, as in USGA area?

Absolutely, All stroke play and match play scores are required to be submitted for handicap purposes, as in the US.  Far too much cross border play to do anything different.

[charli]

Definitely adjusted scores being posted 

[DaveLeeNC]

8 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Requires or accepts? If requires, do they also require stroke play scores to be submitted, as in USGA area?

 

I am not aware of any situation in the US (or Canada) where you have an option regarding whether or not to post a score. You play a round of golf and the rules decide for you whether this is a round to be posted or it is a round that cannot be posted. There is no other designation unless I am overlooking something. You must do it or you cannot do it - period. 

 

dave

[rogolf]

54 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

I am not aware of any situation in the US (or Canada) where you have an option regarding whether or not to post a score. You play a round of golf and the rules decide for you whether this is a round to be posted or it is a round that cannot be posted. There is no other designation unless I am overlooking something. You must do it or you cannot do it - period. 

 

dave

Of course, the "rules" do not permit posting solo rounds.

[rogolf]

And we don't need to get into any "our rules are better than yours" discussion!😀

[Mr. Bean]

6 hours ago, rogolf said:

Absolutely, All stroke play and match play scores are required to be submitted for handicap purposes, as in the US.  Far too much cross border play to do anything different.

 

But you are allowed to play a practice round where you try different kinds of strokes, play more than one ball, ect., right? Just as serious golfers (and professionals) do before the competition.

[Augster]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

But you are allowed to play a practice round where you try different kinds of strokes, play more than one ball, ect., right? Just as serious golfers (and professionals) do before the competition.

If you’re playing by yourself, absolutely. Those are practice rounds. 
 

Playing with others, there really isn’t any excuse for a “practice round” so to speak. When you’re playing with others, it’s expected you’ll be trying to score your best. Then you can legally “practice” between holes. Hit extra chips, extra putts etc. 

 

Otherwise it’s a pretty slippery slope. Wouldn’t it behoove anyone that shoots an exceptional score to claim it was a practice round? Or when they are 4-5 shots below their index, just start “practicing” on the course making their score invalid for posting purposes? 
 

In both cases, of course, deliberately manipulating your cap should get you suspended if found out. 
 

But in the US/WHS, there isn’t any guidance as per a practice round besides “go out alone”. 

[North Butte]

5 hours ago, Augster said:

Playing with others, there really isn’t any excuse for a “practice round” so to speak. When you’re playing with others, it’s expected you’ll be trying to score your best. Then you can legally “practice” between holes. Hit extra chips, extra putts etc. 

 

Says you? 

 

"It's expected" presumably means YOU expect that and maybe the doofuses at USGA expect that. But I typically go out once a week with a friend and most times we are just practicing side by side. Hit second shots, pick up and move our ball to the lie we want to practice from rather than where the previous shot ended up, hanging around the green for a couple minutes to hit multiple chips and putts.

 

The fact my friend is along with me, chatting and making small talk, while I practice doesn't make it anything other than practice. Neither of us post those scores, although once in a while we'll skip the practicing and actually play it down and putt it out (not competing, just each trying to shoot a score) and those are postable scores. 

 

I mean tell that to the Tour players who are out there every week playing practice rounds alongside other players.

 

Your attitude is the same one that lead over-zealous (I'm being charitable) handicap committee chairs to go posting 72's or whatever for every time someone shows up on the tee sheet but doesn't post a score. The world of golf is a much more varied and interesting thing that you're imagining with your straightjacket thinking that every time someone sets foot on a golf course they're pretending like they're playing in a stroke play comp. 

 

The actual rules of the handicap system make it clear that it's on the player to exercise judgement about what rounds qualify to be posted. And intent quite explicitly figures into that judgement. The system does not specify any small-minded assumption that if two or three playing together it's a competition. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by North Butte