Impact of match play on handicap

[Long_Left]

Something that has crossed my mind a bit lately as I predominantly play match play. 3 of us have a weekly game so it's match play against two simultaneous opponents, we call it a "Dutch Rudder" do NOT google search for that, you've been warned. 

 

Caveat, we play by the rules of golf, there are times when we agree to play the ball up in your own fairway and local rule 5e(maybe?) on OB/lost balls (drop in FW at point crossed, hitting 4) but we play actual golf. I record my personal score based on the guidelines of "most likely score" so I feel like I am accurately recording the game being played and do not count a conceded 15 footer for 3 as holed if my opponent is putting 6 or such, many times I'll putt out depending on pace of play.

 

My question/concern is that my index is artificially inflated due to the nature of match play as there are times that the "hero shot" is the only option and my heroism tracking app has me losing strokes to the field 🤣 

 

Over the last year(ish) my stroke play scoring average is 77.8 in tournament medal rounds, my personal data tracking app has my overall scoring average at 80.1 over the same time frame. Am I sandbagging because nearly all of my non-tournament golf is match play? Even on days when I intend to play more conservatively I wind up hitting a few shots (I have to give strokes to both opponents) at sucker pins or taking more or less club than I would if I were playing for pure score. 

[nsxguy]

47 minutes ago, Long_Left said:

Something that has crossed my mind a bit lately as I predominantly play match play. 3 of us have a weekly game so it's match play against two simultaneous opponents, we call it a "Dutch Rudder" do NOT google search for that, you've been warned. 

 

Caveat, we play by the rules of golf, there are times when we agree to play the ball up in your own fairway and local rule 5e(maybe?) on OB/lost balls (drop in FW at point crossed, hitting 4) but we play actual golf. I record my personal score based on the guidelines of "most likely score" so I feel like I am accurately recording the game being played and do not count a conceded 15 footer for 3 as holed if my opponent is putting 6 or such, many times I'll putt out depending on pace of play.

 

My question/concern is that my index is artificially inflated due to the nature of match play as there are times that the "hero shot" is the only option and my heroism tracking app has me losing strokes to the field 🤣 

 

Over the last year(ish) my stroke play scoring average is 77.8 in tournament medal rounds, my personal data tracking app has my overall scoring average at 80.1 over the same time frame. Am I sandbagging because nearly all of my non-tournament golf is match play? Even on days when I intend to play more conservatively I wind up hitting a few shots (I have to give strokes to both opponents) at sucker pins or taking more or less club than I would if I were playing for pure score. 

 

It's now a World Handicapping System but different jurisdiction's handle match play differently.

 

In the U.S. it is perfectly acceptable to include match play scores in your scoring record, so you are certainly not sandbagging.

 

You take on (or not) shots all the time, not solely in match play. It's part of playing the game.

 

Other jurisdictions think differently and do not allow match play scores.

[Augster]

It can’t be sandbagging if you’re playing by the Rules of Golf and posting per the Rules of Handicapping. 
 

So, for sure, it isn’t sandbagging. 
 

Might your handicap be artificially inflated? Maybe. By how much? Probably negligible. You aren’t going to miss every “hero shot” and every layup doesn’t guarantee making par. All in all, it’ll come out in the wash. 
 

Now, fourball match play, that shouldn’t be posted IMO. And when I’m running things, exclusively skins games and fourball matches will be excluded from posting. 
 

But I doubt I’ll be running things anytime soon. 🙂

 

Keep playing how you are. As long as you’re playing by the rules and posting by the rules, it can’t be sandbagging. 

[davep043]

2 hours ago, Long_Left said:

Am I sandbagging because nearly all of my non-tournament golf is match play?

If you play by the Rules of Golf, and post based on the Handicapping Rules in your region, you're not sandbagging.  And remember that its your better 40% of the scores that counts, your average  scores can be misleading.  

[Krt22]

As long as you are playing by the rules, trying to shoot the best score possible, and post everything, there is nothing to worry about. 

[naval2006]

In my country we are not allowed to keep score when playing match-play golf.  In fact, only stroke play competitions and exceptionally a non-competitive round played strictly by the rules of golf, with a marker and calling the Secretary beforehand are valid for handicap purposes.  Hard to tell if match play rounds can account for a player's handicap, especially when you need a double-bogey to win a hole.  A double bogey in medal-play never helps.

[nsxguy]

5 hours ago, naval2006 said:

In my country we are not allowed to keep score when playing match-play golf.  In fact, only stroke play competitions and exceptionally a non-competitive round played strictly by the rules of golf, with a marker and calling the Secretary beforehand are valid for handicap purposes.  Hard to tell if match play rounds can account for a player's handicap, especially when you need a double-bogey to win a hole.  A double bogey in medal-play never helps.

 

Then how do you know who wins ?

 

(j/k)

 

 

[2bGood]

I have posted this before, but I play around 40 stroke play events and 80 match play competitions a year. Over that sample size my average score and low 8 scores are almost identical over the last 5 years with my stroke play score being .6 lower. 

 

Over time I don't think the aggressive nature or conceded putts that occur in match play make any difference. 

Edited May 7, 2022 by 2bGood

[naval2006]

10 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Then how do you know who wins ?

 

(j/k)

 

 

Keep stroke play score.  Anyway, in matchplay there's no keeping scores in the card, it's just hole by hole status informed by the competitors.  There's only a card on handicap matches where the strokes are alloted, just as a reference.  At the end of the match, you just show up at the Secretary and inform the result.  

[davep043]

21 minutes ago, naval2006 said:

Keep stroke play score.  Anyway, in matchplay there's no keeping scores in the card, it's just hole by hole status informed by the competitors.  There's only a card on handicap matches where the strokes are alloted, just as a reference.  At the end of the match, you just show up at the Secretary and inform the result.  

I'm pretty sure that @nsxguy was teasing a bit, and you're absolutely right as for the Rules of Golf requirements for scorecards in match play.  One thing we've learned, requirements for handicap posting still vary from one part of the world to another.  For those of us in the USGA areas, match play scores ARE required to be posted.  Reasonable people may disagree as to whether that's a good choice, but the requirement is clear.

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, naval2006 said:

Keep stroke play score.  Anyway, in matchplay there's no keeping scores in the card, it's just hole by hole status informed by the competitors.  There's only a card on handicap matches where the strokes are alloted, just as a reference.  At the end of the match, you just show up at the Secretary and inform the result.  

 

Dave, as usual, is correct.

 

You're in Argentina, likely(?) a native. You write in English very well.

 

The "" is self-explanatory.

 

"j/k" is shorthand for "just kidding". 👍

[DaveLeeNC]

There was a time (either in a decision or the RoG) that competitions involving both match play and stroke play scoring (in a single group) was prohibited. The explanation was along the lines of there being too many cases where the same situation yields different outcomes to allow this. I took a quick look at the RoG and did not see it  but it could well still be there. Is that the case? 

 

dave

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

There was a time (either in a decision or the RoG) that competitions involving both match play and stroke play scoring (in a single group) was prohibited. The explanation was along the lines of there being too many cases where the same situation yields different outcomes to allow this. I took a quick look at the RoG and did not see it  but it could well still be there. Is that the case? 

 

dave

 

My old club used to do this quite a bit. We'd play 4-man teams and the 2 better balls count for the team score.

 

During a match play event, the match play players would be separated from their team and their scores would be combined with the other 3 on his team at the end.

 

During play, stroke play rules were used. The match players would always tee off first, with honors observed. Whenever practical the match players would play in the proper order.

 

If the group was on time the players would hit in the correct order. Since we were on a public course with pace of play responsibilities, when "necessary" (generally hitting 2nd shots to a green) the players could hit out of turn.

 

Since, for the team match, every hole had to be finished, putts were never conceded.

 

Here are what appears to be the current recommendations.

 

Committee Procedures (6C)

 

(12) Combining Match Play and Stroke Play

The combining of match play and stroke play is discouraged as certain Rules are substantially different between the two formats. But there will be times when players either request to combine the two forms of play or, having done so on their own, request a ruling. The Committee should make its best efforts to support players at these times and should use the following guidelines in doing so.

When players request to combine match play and stroke play

If a Committee chooses to allow players to play a match while competing in a stroke-play competition, it is recommended that the players be advised that the Rules for stroke play apply throughout. For example, no concessions are allowed and if one player plays out of turn, the other does not have the option of recalling the stroke.

When players request a ruling having combined match play and stroke play

If the Committee is asked for a ruling when players have combined match play and stroke play, it should apply the Rules of Golf as they would apply to each of match play and stroke play separately. For example, if one player did not complete a hole for whatever reason then he or she is disqualified from the stroke-play competition for a breach of Rule 3.3c. But, for Stableford, Maximum Score and Par/Bogey see Rules 21.1c(2), 21.2c and 21.3c(2) respectively.

 

[Augster]

3 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

There was a time (either in a decision or the RoG) that competitions involving both match play and stroke play scoring (in a single group) was prohibited. The explanation was along the lines of there being too many cases where the same situation yields different outcomes to allow this. I took a quick look at the RoG and did not see it  but it could well still be there. Is that the case? 

 

dave

After 2019 WHS, both types of competition at the same time is allowed. 
 

It’s in the handicap manual. 
 

Took me forever to find it. Basically, post your stroke play score. 
 

2.1/2 – Status of Scores Made When Match Play and Stroke Play Formats are Played Concurrently

When a player competes in a match while also playing in a stroke play round and both are authorized formats of play, the stroke play score is the score that should be submitted for handicap purposes. The match play score should not be submitted.

[DaveLeeNC]

@Augster @nsxguy Thanks for the clear and complete responses. The current status makes more sense to me. 

 

dave

[Mudguard]

22 hours ago, Augster said:

When a player competes in a match while also playing in a stroke play round and both are authorized formats of play, the stroke play score is the score that should be submitted for handicap purposes. The match play score should not be submitted.

 

Begs the question of why the score would be different? If playing both formats you have to abide by stroke play rules with no official concessions. 

I suppose it means if your opponent concedes a three footer for the match, but then you actually miss it, you have to put your higher score down. Which of course is stupid from a matchplay point of view you because if I was the opponent I wouldn't bother with any concessions.

[naval2006]

On 5/6/2022 at 1:46 PM, nsxguy said:

 

Dave, as usual, is correct.

 

You're in Argentina, likely(?) a native. You write in English very well.

 

The "" is self-explanatory.

 

"j/k" is shorthand for "just kidding". 👍

I got it but anyways it’s interesting to see how different countries deal with hdc and amateur competitions depending on the country you play. Sorry if I may have sounded rude. I didn’t mean to. 

[Long_Left]

I appreciate all the feedback, as the match play is 90% bragging rights and a few beers after the round I try to focus on my score more than the matches but it does influence decision making a fair bit. Tough to punch out sideways with an opponent sitting 20 feet for birdie...

 

I'm 2 matches up with 6 to play, loser caddies for the winner in a monthly medal game 🙂 One more win this week and I'm ordering the coveralls!

[North Butte]

2 minutes ago, Long_Left said:

I appreciate all the feedback, as the match play is 90% bragging rights and a few beers after the round I try to focus on my score more than the matches but it does influence decision making a fair bit. Tough to punch out sideways with an opponent sitting 20 feet for birdie...

 

I'm 2 matches up with 6 to play, loser caddies for the winner in a monthly medal game 🙂 One more win this week and I'm ordering the coveralls!

I know this is a somewhat grumpy old man comment but I'll say it anyway. To me, a match against other golfers for bragging rights or a beer is what golf is all about. That is so much, infinitely, more rewarding that "focus[ing] on my own score".  

 

As a analogy, Tiger Woods always said he was most at home and happy practicing on the driving range. But in the end, the thing he was working toward was winning tournaments and all those happy driving range hours were in pursuit of that end result.

 

Maybe your situation is different than mine. I can play golf alone and focus on my own score almost any time I like. But there are only so many opportunities to find some compatible mates and go play a head to head or team match of some kind. I cherish those rounds and would feel like I was wasting the opportunity if I did my best to ignore the match and just tried to NOT MAKE MISTAKES so as to keep my stroke-play score from having any big numbers. 

 

Because that's the stroke play mentality, isn't it? You have to always prioritize eliminating chances to make a big number. The idea is you can't possibly make enough birdies to make up for one triple or quad on the card. It takes a very negative, grinding, risk-averse mindset to consistently shoot the best possible stroke play score. 

 

Anyway, just my personal philosophy.

 

[Long_Left]

3 minutes ago, North Butte said:

I know this is a somewhat grumpy old man comment but I'll say it anyway. To me, a match against other golfers for bragging rights or a beer is what golf is all about. That is so much, infinitely, more rewarding that "focus[ing] on my own score".  

 

As a analogy, Tiger Woods always said he was most at home and happy practicing on the driving range. But in the end, the thing he was working toward was winning tournaments and all those happy driving range hours were in pursuit of that end result.

 

Maybe your situation is different than mine. I can play golf alone and focus on my own score almost any time I like. But there are only so many opportunities to find some compatible mates and go play a head to head or team match of some kind. I cherish those rounds and would feel like I was wasting the opportunity if I did my best to ignore the match and just tried to NOT MAKE MISTAKES so as to keep my stroke-play score from having any big numbers. 

 

Because that's the stroke play mentality, isn't it? You have to always prioritize eliminating chances to make a big number. The idea is you can't possibly make enough birdies to make up for one triple or quad on the card. It takes a very negative, grinding, risk-averse mindset to consistently shoot the best possible stroke play score. 

 

Anyway, just my personal philosophy.

 

I agree with you 99%, I play nearly all my golf with good friends and we enjoy that golf immensely. We are also VERY competitive amongst ourselves and there is a large amount of chirping along with the general chatter of a round. I'm not out there grinding, but I'm also not out there just free swinging at everything. I do still work full time and have a pair of young ones at home so I'm typically an 18 holes a week guy so the golf has to pull double duty for me.

 

My biggest "grind" of the year is an annual 36 hole Am in late summer, I won my flight last year at -4 net playing off a 4 index. In the time since my index has risen to almost 6 but I feel like I'm playing the same golf, that is what lead to the question. As much as I would love to repeat this summer, I don't want to come in and shoot another 148 off 6 and get people mumbling... my availability to play the monthly medal tournaments has been garbage this year so I have only one round posted from them, and I made an 11 that day and hit myself in the foot with my own ball off the putter... but that is a story for another day 🤢

[rogolf]

40 minutes ago, Long_Left said:

I agree with you 99%, I play nearly all my golf with good friends and we enjoy that golf immensely. We are also VERY competitive amongst ourselves and there is a large amount of chirping along with the general chatter of a round. I'm not out there grinding, but I'm also not out there just free swinging at everything. I do still work full time and have a pair of young ones at home so I'm typically an 18 holes a week guy so the golf has to pull double duty for me.

 

My biggest "grind" of the year is an annual 36 hole Am in late summer, I won my flight last year at -4 net playing off a 4 index. In the time since my index has risen to almost 6 but I feel like I'm playing the same golf, that is what lead to the question. As much as I would love to repeat this summer, I don't want to come in and shoot another 148 off 6 and get people mumbling... my availability to play the monthly medal tournaments has been garbage this year so I have only one round posted from them, and I made an 11 that day and hit myself in the foot with my own ball off the putter... but that is a story for another day 🤢

Of course you realize that:

- the highest hole score that you can use for handicap purposes is net double bogey (par + 2 + handicap strokes on that hole)

- hitting your foot with a ball is not a penalty (Rule 11.1a) and if happened when the ball was played from the putting green, the stroke is cancelled and the ball must be replaced at its original spot, without penalty (Exception 2 to Rule 11.1b)

[Long_Left]

44 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Of course you realize that:

- the highest hole score that you can use for handicap purposes is net double bogey (par + 2 + handicap strokes on that hole)

- hitting your foot with a ball is not a penalty (Rule 11.1a) and if happened when the ball was played from the putting green, the stroke is cancelled and the ball must be replaced at its original spot, without penalty (Exception 2 to Rule 11.1b)

Point 1 I do know and post my adjusted scores accordingly.

 

Point 2 I know now but didn't know at the time and none of my foursome knew either, the 9 or 10 or whatever the "right" number was would not have put me in the money 🤣 I suppose I should have been a DQ for signing an incorrect card but our monthly association games aren't particularly concerned with the person posting last place in the flight. Had there been any potential for changing place I'd have pulled the rules up on my phone and verified. 15th hole, hadn't been a good day up to that point so I was net 5 or 6 over after the 14th already and getting lapped by my foursome.

 

[Imp]

On 5/6/2022 at 6:55 PM, Augster said:

2.1/2 – Status of Scores Made When Match Play and Stroke Play Formats are Played Concurrently

When a player competes in a match while also playing in a stroke play round and both are authorized formats of play, the stroke play score is the score that should be submitted for handicap purposes. The match play score should not be submitted.

And, IMHO, if you had a gimme and didn't putt it out, posting I believe should be done under "most likely score for a hole not finished." Was it realistic 1 putt? Or, was it far away and 1 was questionable, making it most likely a 2? So that seems like it's covered for me.

We simplified things by leaving "match play" out of our rules for the league. You play stroke play 1 v 1 vs opponent. Lowest net gets 1 point. You also play all 9 holes for total of 9 points (noes dormies or whatevers theys calls it todays). So it's not really match play. Gimmies are optional because not everyone has a GHIN, but we track a league HDCP separately for all players. Those with GHINs are encouraged to putt out, or when you get a gimme posting follow the "most likely score" method mentioned in handicapping rules.  

As an aside, we have some league members that are not posting their scores at all simply because of the gimmes, "why did you take it?" "Because it was given!" and "Post most likely score". They play in state events and ... their hdcp would most likely be different if they had posted... and they know that not posting keeps their hdcp high.... 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Imp

[davep043]

21 minutes ago, Imp said:

As an aside, we have some league members that are not posting their scores at all simply because of the gimmes, "why did you take it?" "Because it was given!" and "Post most likely score". They play in state events and ... their hdcp would most likely be different if they had posted... and they know that not posting keeps their hdcp high.... 

Those players are cheaters.  They don't get to decide what to post or not post based on their own version of the handicap rules.

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, Imp said:

And, IMHO, if you had a gimme and didn't putt it out, posting I believe should be done under "most likely score for a hole not finished." Was it realistic 1 putt? Or, was it far away and 1 was questionable, making it most likely a 2? So that seems like it's covered for me.

We simplified things by leaving "match play" out of our rules for the league. You play stroke play 1 v 1 vs opponent. Lowest net gets 1 point. You also play all 9 holes for total of 9 points (noes dormies or whatevers theys calls it todays). So it's not really match play. Gimmies are optional because not everyone has a GHIN, but we track a league HDCP separately for all players. Those with GHINs are encouraged to putt out, or when you get a gimme posting follow the "most likely score" method mentioned in handicapping rules.  

As an aside, we have some league members that are not posting their scores at all simply because of the gimmes, "why did you take it?" "Because it was given!" and "Post most likely score". They play in state events and ... their hdcp would most likely be different if they had posted... and they know that not posting keeps their hdcp high.... 

 

A gimme ? Or a conceded putt ? A gimme by definition is a short putt that you'd make 9X% or more of the time if you're trying to make it.

 

For other holes not finished

 

 

And I guess I'm not quite understanding your "format". Best net score on a single hole gets a point and most points wins ? Except for a hole tied that sure sounds like match play to me.

 

Not sure what GHIN has to do with giving or recording gimmes whether the score is reported to GHIN or just used for your league.

 

As for the guys who are cheating, report them to your state association.

[Imp]

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

And I guess I'm not quite understanding your "format". Best net score on a single hole gets a point and most points wins ? Except for a hole tied that sure sounds like match play to me.

Points are the same. Sure. I mean, does match play have a sole source on using 1 point or a half? But you play all 9 holes. You're not just going for a win for 1 point total. You're going for as many points you can get those 9 holes. Seven 8 person teams with 2 team players on each flight A/B/C/D playing other teams every week. And we aggregate points every week. It's fun. 

As far as GHIN, it was toward the earlier discussion on stroke play and recording strokes, during other forms of play, like some that mix match and stroke play. 

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Imp

[oikos1]

12 hours ago, davep043 said:

Those players are cheaters.  They don't get to decide what to post or not post based on their own version of the handicap rules.

Handicap cheaters are the worst

[North Butte]

7 hours ago, oikos1 said:

Handicap cheaters are the worst

There was one guy I used to play with who refused to post bad scores because "That's not how I really play". And he hated to post good scores because it would make his handicap go down and "I can't play to that". So basically he wanted to post any 75's or 76's or 77's and not post anything better or worse. Magically, his handicap index stayed around 4 no matter what scores he was actually shooting. 

 

He was eventually relieved of handicap posting duties and we had the pro shop guy enter his scores for him!

[larrybud]

On 5/11/2022 at 8:28 AM, North Butte said:

There was one guy I used to play with who refused to post bad scores because "That's not how I really play". And he hated to post good scores because it would make his handicap go down and "I can't play to that". So basically he wanted to post any 75's or 76's or 77's and not post anything better or worse. Magically, his handicap index stayed around 4 no matter what scores he was actually shooting. 

 

He was eventually relieved of handicap posting duties and we had the pro shop guy enter his scores for him!

do you recall what happened to his index after that?

[North Butte]

3 minutes ago, larrybud said:

do you recall what happened to his index after that?

I think it mostly bounced around 5, 6, 7. He was basically vanity-capping himself by a couple strokes. 

 

It was a case of a guy who had been a low handicapper all his life and couldn't accept not still being one in his 60's.