Limiting my hip rotation in the backswing has cleaned up my ball striking a ton.....

[golfarb1]

As per usual posters on  Golfwrx

Spoiler

 

are conflating the hip turn with pelvis “rotation”

There is nothing the matter with restricting pelvis “ rotation” going back provided it does NOT result in too short a backswing and provided it does not cause the golfer to lift his arms to make a faux shoulder turn.

There are many tour  golfers who restrict their pelvis “ rotation” considerably going back . Admittedly tour players are younger and have greater mobility than the average middle aged golfer , so restricting pelvis “ rotation to the degree that some tour players do is not a viable choice for most golfers 

Among the possible consequences of too much pelvic “ rotation “ 

1. Sucking the clubhead too inside

2. too much front knee bend ( internal hip rotation) too early in the backswing -resulting in too much weight into the toe of the lead foot 

3. getting too flat a shoulder turn

4. Straightening the trail leg too much

5. getting too much weight into the trail heel at 9:00 and at the top 

6.  Getting the lead arm too angled at 9:00, resulting in the hands too deep too early 

7. . getting the trail elbow behind the seam of one’s  shirt at the top. This stuck position makes it very difficult to get your trail elbow on and in front of your trail hip at impact 

 

NO doubt golfers need to “ rotate “ their pelvis going back  . But the amount and when this “rotation “happens is vital . Too much and too early create problems . 
Although the golfer will naturally lose some of the brace of the trail knee as the trail leg straightens and the front leg bends going back  , maintaining some of the brace of the trail knee is necessary to govern the amount of pelvis “ rotation” 

Flaring the feet will also affect pelvis” rotation” . Flaring the trail foot away from the target will encourage pelvis” rotation”going back while flaring the lead foot towards the target will restrict it going back 
Closed stances will encourage pelvis “ rotation “ going back , while open stances will discourage it . 

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by golfarb1

[golfarb1]

1 hour ago, mricicle said:

 

So how does the body limit, or amplify, the amount of rotation,  and when would be considered not too early, or not too late, just right?

Via left foot flare , opening stance , maintaining more of the trail knee brace, taking the club back straight for the first 18 inches of the takeaway to limit it -

 

via trail foot flare , closed stance -taking the club back parallel to your closed stance ala Sam Snead with a driver to amplify it

 

too checkpoints 

1. first parallel - dtl  only a little visible pelvis rotation - clubhead should be even or slightly outside the hands 

2. 9:00 going back -dtl a little more  pelvis “ “ rotation” very little space between the knees ( enlarging to a medium -small amount of visible space  between the knees at the top)  -only a small amount of loss in the trail knee brace ( enlarging to more of a loss of trail knee brace at the top) -lead arm only angled in about 20 degrees with hands commensurately deep 

 

In all instances  your trail elbow should not be behind the seam of your shirt at 9:00 or the top

Edited June 18, 2022 by golfarb1

[DeadPoets]

On 6/15/2022 at 8:46 PM, Lefty_3Jack said:

The term “restrict hip turn” was plenty enough fodder for most of you to immediately say “bad”! You didn’t look at the video to see my hips were turning in the backswing (they have to), just later and not as much. This the entire reason I posted it. Hell, Monte’s NTC video even mentioned that people turn their hips too early and too much in the backswing! 

Haha was thinking the same thing. Odd to see Monte say that long term it will hurt you when NTC s based n the concept. 
 

I also rotate too much too early. I think I go straight to my heels and that’s partly to blame. Will give the no turn feel a try. 

[TheDeanAbides]

6 hours ago, DeadPoets said:

Haha was thinking the same thing. Odd to see Monte say that long term it will hurt you when NTC s based n the concept. 
 

I also rotate too much too early. I think I go straight to my heels and that’s partly to blame. Will give the no turn feel a try. 

NTC isn’t really based on it - it’s about allowing the hips to turn the correct amount rather than actively turning them or actively restricting them. The hips, like the shoulders, will respond to a correct arm turn if we allow them to. 
 

The No turn part is more for people who over rotate and drag the club inside.

Edited June 23, 2022 by TheDeanAbides

[DeadPoets]

17 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

NTC isn’t really based on it - it’s about allowing the hips to turn the correct amount rather than actively turning them or actively restricting them. The hips, like the shoulders, will respond to a correct arm turn if we allow them to. 
 

The No turn part is more for people who over rotate and drag the club inside.

Which is exactly what the OP was struggling with. 

Edited June 23, 2022 by DeadPoets

[Chunkitgood]

I was watching an AMG video and the guys said “you don’t want to restrict your hips” then “but of course you don’t want to turn them too much.”

 

I love their demos of how pros do things but their patter leaves something to be desired.

 

I got me thinking though that maybe there is something in a good swing that in essence governs or autocorrects the amount of hip turn, so that the golfer doesn’t feel like he is restricting it but it nevertheless doesn’t go too far.  The most likely candidate I can come up with is external rotation of the left hip, which will feel more like your left knee going towards you left foot instead of towards your right knee.

[PracticeSwinger]

5 minutes ago, Chunkitgood said:

I was watching an AMG video and the guys said “you don’t want to restrict your hips” then “but of course you don’t want to turn them too much.”

On this and on Monte's references earlier - I'm guessing that it has more to do with the timing of the trail hip movement in the backswing, rather than the degree to which it ends up 'turning' or push back and towards the target... since lots of amateurs initiate with that hip and drag the club inside on takeaway (-> flat) + the trail hip reaching it's max too soon causing the lead hip to dive in toward the ball), the NTC part is to 'freeze' this move during the initial part of the swing - but not to 'restrict' it later on getting to the top (back and shifting towards the target)... my 2 cents

[jut111]

35 minutes ago, Chunkitgood said:

I was watching an AMG video and the guys said “you don’t want to restrict your hips” then “but of course you don’t want to turn them too much.”

 

I love their demos of how pros do things but their patter leaves something to be desired.

 

I got me thinking though that maybe there is something in a good swing that in essence governs or autocorrects the amount of hip turn, so that the golfer doesn’t feel like he is restricting it but it nevertheless doesn’t go too far.  The most likely candidate I can come up with is external rotation of the left hip, which will feel more like your left knee going towards you left foot instead of towards your right knee.

The governor is tilt.  Too much hip turn and too flat hip turn go together.  Hard to turn too much if you're tilts are good.  

[Krt22]

40 minutes ago, jut111 said:

The governor is tilt.  Too much hip turn and too flat hip turn go together.  Hard to turn too much if you're tilts are good.  

Bingo.  Too flat and the tilt isn't there, too restricted and the tilt isn't there either.  This also goes hand in hand with pressure shift vs weight shift. An excessive/flat hip turn usually means too much actual weight getting over the trail foot, lead knee kicks in too much, etc.

[golfarb1]

1 hour ago, Chunkitgood said:

I was watching an AMG video and the guys said “you don’t want to restrict your hips” then “but of course you don’t want to turn them too much.”

 

I love their demos of how pros do things but their patter leaves something to be desired.

 

I got me thinking though that maybe there is something in a good swing that in essence governs or autocorrects the amount of hip turn, so that the golfer doesn’t feel like he is restricting it but it nevertheless doesn’t go too far.  The most likely candidate I can come up with is external rotation of the left hip, which will feel more like your left knee going towards you left foot instead of towards your right knee.

Left hip external rotation does not happen going back -only left hip INTERNAL rotation happens . But you are correct  when you state that there are automatic governors that limit the amount of this internal hip rotation. These governors are your own inherent mobility and 
foot flare 

whether your stance is open or closed 

Whether you lift your front foot off of the ground 

[glk]

1 hour ago, golfarb1 said:

Left hip external rotation does not happen going back -only left hip INTERNAL rotation happens . But you are correct  when you state that there are automatic governors that limit the amount of this internal hip rotation. These governors are your own inherent mobility and 
foot flare 

whether your stance is open or closed 

Whether you lift your front foot off of the ground 

From a question I asked Tyler 4 years ago

Tyler F

4 years, 3 months ago

The timings can vary somewhat significantly, but the overall pattern is very consistent: Trail leg - internal rotation during the backswing, external rotation during the downswing.

Lead leg - external rotation during the backswing, internal rotation during the downswing. It would be hard to rotate your pelvis back and forth and not have that pattern.

 

[Barfolomew]

Ya Im waaay on board..... but I have a short backswing, so kinda natural to have a small hip turn 🐈

 

Went to short backswing/hip turn cause lets me focus more on quality of contact then I noticed you dont need a "full backswing" for distance either.... so it was an easy sell

 

Then started thinking why is contact better, why am I flushing it way more.... cause long backswing takes people out of their swing.... its too much to manage with the plethora of variables flying around to hit the exact shot intended 🦇

 

 

[Chunkitgood]

2 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

Left hip external rotation does not happen going back -only left hip INTERNAL rotation happens . But you are correct  when you state that there are automatic governors that limit the amount of this internal hip rotation. These governors are your own inherent mobility and 
foot flare 

whether your stance is open or closed 

Whether you lift your front foot off of the ground 

If the difference between these screenshots is not external rotation of the left hip ( which results an increase in the angle between the pelvis and the left femur when the knee is flexed and the foot stationary), what is it?

[golfarb1]

We should not even be having this conversation because external and internal rotation of the hip is so well defined in basic anatomy 

The head of the femur( thigh bone)  is tightly encapsulated with the hip socket . The other end of the femur forms the knee joint , so any hip rotation , whether it is external or internal will move the knee in a similar direction .
The definition of internal hip rotation is moving the head of the femur ( and the knee ) towards the center of the body 

The definition of external hip rotation is moving the head of the femur ( and knee)away from the center of the body.

Try this simple demonstration . Stand up with both feet on the ground ( closed chain ) and rotate your lead hip externally so that your left knee rotates towards the target . Then with your left hip and lead knee externally rotated , try to make a backswing . 
Do the same demonstration but with your lead hip and knee internally rotated  and see how easy it is to make a backswing 

 

i have no idea what Tyler or AMG is referring to but if it violates these definitions it is incorrect , pure and simple 

Edited June 24, 2022 by golfarb1

[PracticeSwinger]

10 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

We should not even be having this conversation because external and internal rotation of the hip is so well defined in basic anatomy 

The head of the femur( thigh bone)  is tightly encapsulated with the hip socket . The other end of the femur forms the knee joint , so any hip rotation , whether it is external or internal will move the knee in a similar direction .
The definition of internal hip rotation is moving the head of the femur ( and the knee ) towards the center of the body 

The definition of external hip rotation is moving the head of the femur away from the center of the body

i have no idea what Tyler or AMG is referring to but if it violates these definitions it is incorrect , pure and simple 

Pretty sure there is external lead hip rotation in the backswing (as stated by Tyler and AMG) and as per your definition above - just looking at the stills from the reply from Chunkitgood - the angle formed by the lead femur going through the lead hip and center of the pelvis is increasing in the backswing… vice versa for the trail hip - and inverses in the downswing…

 

Said differently - the lead knee is moving toward your lead toes and not collapsing in - during the backswing

[golfarb1]

3 hours ago, MtlJayMan said:

Pretty sure there is external lead hip rotation in the backswing (as stated by Tyler and AMG) and as per your definition above - just looking at the stills from the reply from Chunkitgood - the angle formed by the lead femur going through the lead hip and center of the pelvis is increasing in the backswing… vice versa for the trail hip - and inverses in the downswing…

 

Said differently - the lead knee is moving toward your lead toes and not collapsing in - during the backswing

Although both hips  can move internally or externally at the same time ( reference external hip rotation of both hips in the Sam Snead squat) you can not internally rotate your lead hip and externally rotate it at the same time .

You are falling into the same mistake that most posters and pros make , I.e. you are conflating hip movements with pelvic movements . Although hip movements are integral to changes in the position of the hip socket and thus pelvis movements , they are completely different than movements of the pelvis . To conflate the two is just anatomically incorrect 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2022 by golfarb1

[golfarb1]

The below still shows external rotation of both hips . 

Is there anyone in golf whose lead  knee looks like this in their backswing? 
The answer is no because external rotation of the lead hip and knee will make it impossible to “ rotate “ the pelvis going back 

( closed chain means that his feet are on the ground ) 

Edited June 24, 2022 by golfarb1

[golfarb1]

18 hours ago, jut111 said:

The governor is tilt.  Too much hip turn and too flat hip turn go together.  Hard to turn too much if you're tilts are good.  

What do you mean by tilts ? 

Lateral side bending of the spine ( tilting ) is an entirely different movement than depression / elevation of the pelvis , which causes the pelvis to tilt towards or away from the target . 

Lateral bending of the spine is defined as movement  which decreases the angular difference  between C7(base of the neck) and  T1(base of the thoracic spine) 

The cause of the pelvis tilting is very simple - one leg is bending while the other is straightening . It is a coupled motion in that one side of the pelvis must move down( depression) as the other side of the pelvis moves up( elevation) . 
 

Excessive pelvic “ rotation”   is associated with the trail leg straightening too early and too much . At the same the lead leg is bending too much 

Too flat a pelvis” rotation “ results from the opposite - retention of too much bend of the trail knee and too little front knee bend.

Edited June 24, 2022 by golfarb1

[dsmil]

19 hours ago, MtlJayMan said:

On this and on Monte's references earlier - I'm guessing that it has more to do with the timing of the trail hip movement in the backswing, rather than the degree to which it ends up 'turning' or push back and towards the target... since lots of amateurs initiate with that hip and drag the club inside on takeaway (-> flat) + the trail hip reaching it's max too soon causing the lead hip to dive in toward the ball), the NTC part is to 'freeze' this move during the initial part of the swing - but not to 'restrict' it later on getting to the top (back and shifting towards the target)... my 2 cents

 

Yep, this is how I interpret the no turn part of NTC too.  It may not change the amount that the hips rotate but it will change the timing of the rotation so it's more in sync with the body.  I think some people will achieve this by letting the movement happen naturally rather than actively trying to turn the hips.  Others (like me) have to feel a slight restriction in the initial part of the takeaway because I'm so used to letting the hips fire open immediately.  

 

 

[Nard_S]

 My issue is dropping lead hip too much into the ball line. Leads to a bunch of inconsistency.

 

Anatomy, or poor movement, not sure but it's a death move for me that costs yards too.

 

Keep hips back, holding their space relative to ball line, does wonders for my swing. 

 

But it does not feel like rotation feels like hinge->shift->hinge in a push or step back motion.

 

Tailbone bumps a bit right but goes ball bound and deeper away before lead hinges back.

 

In some ways it is more restricted but reality it is way more efficient and allows full force of swing landing into ball.

 

It's an uncomfortable change and feel but the results don't lie. Feels like there's a twisting torque of lead shoulder to hip that I'm not used to.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2022 by Nard_S

[NoTalentLefty]

On 6/15/2022 at 8:04 AM, Lefty_3Jack said:

I thought "limiting hip rotation" would get the people going since it seems universal here that it's the worst thing in the world to ever do.  Are my hips rotating in the backswing, yes.  Are they rotating later, slower and overall less than before, absolutely.  In reality, I'm probably just getting my upper body/lower body/arms synced up, but the "feel" is don't move your hips in the backswing at all.  

 

Trying to get videos up now.  Purpose of the post was to get some feedback as well as provide some experience of someone that "limited" hip rotation in the backswing with great results.

Are you starting the swing in the following order: arms then shoulders then hips ?

Edited June 25, 2022 by NoTalentLefty

[Lefty_3Jack]

On 6/23/2022 at 3:56 AM, DeadPoets said:

Which is exactly what the OP was struggling with. 

Bingo.  One month in and I'm still striking it very solidly and with zero fear of hitting it off the neck. 

[Lefty_3Jack]

On 6/23/2022 at 2:27 PM, MtlJayMan said:

On this and on Monte's references earlier - I'm guessing that it has more to do with the timing of the trail hip movement in the backswing, rather than the degree to which it ends up 'turning' or push back and towards the target... since lots of amateurs initiate with that hip and drag the club inside on takeaway (-> flat) + the trail hip reaching it's max too soon causing the lead hip to dive in toward the ball), the NTC part is to 'freeze' this move during the initial part of the swing - but not to 'restrict' it later on getting to the top (back and shifting towards the target)... my 2 cents

Some of this is a learned thing I believe.  Over the last 10+ years I've noticed most instructors recommending to keep the trail arm above the lead arm in the backswing (which will result in more tilt early) so the face is "square to the spine" at P3 + straightening of the rear leg. 

 

Not sure if I took that overboard or if it was natural, but I know my rear leg would be locked out by P3 and my trail hip sitting there waiting to pop out at the first chance it got.  I couldn't get my arms down fast enough, no matter what I did to beat that rear hip when the pressure was on. 

 

I remember getting tested once years ago and they had my hip rotation at 60 something degrees, but my shoulders were not near 120°.  The guy told me then I needed to do something about my hip rotation, but everything you read is "turn your hips more" and "don't restrict your hips".  Everyone is different and what you feel to get you doing something is different than the next guy.  

[Lefty_3Jack]

On 6/25/2022 at 10:46 AM, NoTalentLefty said:

Are you starting the swing in the following order: arms then shoulders then hips ?

I don't think about what starts the swing in either direction.  My only thought is to not turn my hips in the backswing.  This is not what is happening, but the feel has worked for a month now at the range, on the course, under pressure, etc.  

[PracticeSwinger]

1 hour ago, Lefty_3Jack said:

Some of this is a learned thing I believe.  Over the last 10+ years I've noticed most instructors recommending to keep the trail arm above the lead arm in the backswing (which will result in more tilt early) so the face is "square to the spine" at P3 + straightening of the rear leg. 

 

Not sure if I took that overboard or if it was natural, but I know my rear leg would be locked out by P3 and my trail hip sitting there waiting to pop out at the first chance it got.  I couldn't get my arms down fast enough, no matter what I did to beat that rear hip when the pressure was on. 

 

I remember getting tested once years ago and they had my hip rotation at 60 something degrees, but my shoulders were not near 120°.  The guy told me then I needed to do something about my hip rotation, but everything you read is "turn your hips more" and "don't restrict your hips".  Everyone is different and what you feel to get you doing something is different than the next guy.  

Yes - comes back to the timing of the trail hip movement in the backswing in my opinion

 

Just test this out by doing contrary moves... first by getting your hips open 45* and your torso/shoulders still square to the target (i.e. maxing your trail hip out too soon in essence) - and then when you want to add torso/shoulder rotation, tilt and getting to the lead side, the lead hip will automatically dive in - 'faking' shoulder rotation by heaving into the space between your body and the target line... this causes the trail hip to goat hump going down, EE to save it, lovely stall/flip combo

 

Do the opposite, keeping your hips 'quiet' initially and rotating your torso/shoulders 45* open with tilt (as you mention trail forearm above the lead one)... and then turn everything together; hips/torso/shoulders - you'll recenter, pressure on the lead side and give yourself room to pivot all the way through

[RichieHunt]

I was struggling with my swing lately, particularly when I would take it out on the course.  The sequencing felt 'off' and I couldn't stop opening up too early in the downswing.  Then I just happened to watch this video.
 

 

 

I then thought of this thread and a point I made earlier...it's not so much about restricting the hip turn as it is about not rotating the hips right away and allowing your shoulder turn and thorax turn to get the hips turning.

 

And voila!  

 

Started striping it instantaneously again.  I had to remember one of the things Josh Koch had taught me and I started to get pivot more effectively in the backswing.  That allowed me to more easily re-center the pelvis and not open up too soon and not lose my tilts so early.

 

 

 

 

 

RH

[Nard_S]

22 hours ago, RichieHunt said:

...it's not so much about restricting the hip turn as it is about not rotating the hips right away and allowing your shoulder turn and thorax turn to get the hips turning.

Yup.

[NoTalentLefty]

On 6/27/2022 at 7:22 AM, Lefty_3Jack said:

I don't think about what starts the swing in either direction.  My only thought is to not turn my hips in the backswing.  This is not what is happening, but the feel has worked for a month now at the range, on the course, under pressure, etc.  

I follow you . U think restriction but as a feel only. My way is to start my arms back shoulders and restrict the hips by having it the last thing I do. Whether they are restricted I not sure but it feels that way. Good luck !

[jobin]

Many valuable comments here, but outside my range of interest.  I do remember reading Hogan's book and he said 'the shoulders pull the hips'.  Never the opposite where the hips push the shoulders.

That's the one thing that i (try) to keep in mind.  If i think of my hips while taking my backswing, nothing good will occur.

[Lefty_3Jack]

16 hours ago, jobin said:

Many valuable comments here, but outside my range of interest.  I do remember reading Hogan's book and he said 'the shoulders pull the hips'.  Never the opposite where the hips push the shoulders.

 

And I’d say my sequence was completely opposite of that. My hips started turning before my arms moved back. Still hitting it better than ever btw