Cameron Young's Centered Pivot

[MysteryV]

I feel like he's the poster child for Gankas, Milo Lines, Larry Cheung, Elite Golf Schools, and basically all the folks who are teaching a modern, centered pivot focused swing.  He has about the most centered / stable / least lateral hip shift I've seen for quite some time - it's just impressive.

 

My question for you folks who have been successful in moving to this style of swing is - what was the "aha moment" that helped it click for you?  What feels helped you get there?

 

Just to get things started, I've been working towards this style of swing for a while - and for me, the most impactful swing thought to practice - comes from tennis / basketball.  Most of the folks above teach getting into the ground as a squat, or lowering your belt line but, for me, it really helped me to think about the jump that tennis players make when receiving a serve (or NBA players like Tony Parker used to make before a drive).  It's the spit second weightlessness where you quickly jump fractionally off the ground, in order to gather, center, and increase your ability to use the ground to explode in either direction.  

 

Some pressure mat work (Salted Insoles so - pressure mat adjacent) is partially what led me here as the Salted app really wants to see you generate significant vertical GRF - and I found by thinking about this hop as being the first move from the top, I was able to generate more force with less effort, while maintaining a centered pivot.

 

What's worked for you?  Alternately - what are some mechanics you really like about Cam Young's swing that you intend to work on?

[phizzy30]

An exercise that helps mimic the power move that I do on a regular basis in the gym in the jump squat.  Don't need too much weight, just the bar and maybe 10 pound plates max on each side.  Another exercise I do to activate the hips are resistance band punches.  Olympic style lifts also help with adding explosiveness/power as well which I do as well. 

[Valtiel]

11 hours ago, MysteryV said:

He has about the most centered / stable / least lateral hip shift I've seen for quite some time - it's just impressive.

Young's swing is definitely impressive, but I don't really see how it could be considered "centered" in the way you're describing:



That's quite a big move off the ball IMO. He definitely has the kind of hip move/clearing in the downswing that Gankas advocates though. Ridiculous amounts of left hip driving and clearing, especially considering his big pause at the top. SUPER fast lower body necessary for all that to work.

[me05501]

 

16 hours ago, MysteryV said:

What's worked for you?  Alternately - what are some mechanics you really like about Cam Young's swing that you intend to work on?

 

When it comes to this "power loading" stuff I think it's important to use video or have a pro help you find the right feel that works with what you're already doing.

 

Once I started thinking about the pivot in terms of my hip sockets moving away from/closer to the ball I found that my knee bends were working appropriately and I didn't need to add additional left knee bend to engage GRF. I just needed to focus more on the push off the ground than I had in the past. 

 

Most of the YouTube videos on ground forces start with the assumption that players aren't doing any of this naturally in the first place which is dangerous for some of us. 

 

Edited July 19, 2022 by me05501

[TLUBulldogGolf]

His lower body looks pretty similar to most pros. Monte's breakdowns of how the hips should work are the clearest to me. 

[MysteryV]

5 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Young's swing is definitely impressive, but I don't really see how it could be considered "centered" in the way you're describing:



That's quite a big move off the ball IMO. He definitely has the kind of hip move/clearing in the downswing that Gankas advocates though. Ridiculous amounts of left hip driving and clearing, especially considering his big pause at the top. SUPER fast lower body necessary for all that to work.

 

I understand your point, and perhaps my terminology was a bit off.  What would your definition of centered pivot be?  Rotation where the sacrum doesn't move laterally at all? I could definitely see that but what I meant here was that his hips stay within where they are at address exceptionally well.

 

The the part that really impressed me was how little his hips shift towards the target in the down swing.  

 

 

[Kuuuch]

To me it just looks like he's staying in flexion longer than most. The left leg really doesn't straighten all that much after impact which is imo why his hips don't "bump" all that much. 

 

I've worked with Dan on not staying in flexion for so long and making sure to still extend (hogan move) after impact into the follow through.

 

OP to answer your question, my favorite thing for legwork is using a medium resistance band (that chicks often use lol) and putting it above your knees. Helps keep the separation (snead squat) but also ensures you extend properly in the follow through. I worked with GG for awhile and I wasn't a fan of his legwork, I think he made it tougher than it needed to be. 

[CSagan]

He looks to be a rear post swinger. Can't find an iron swing face on anywhere online. I'd imagine he'd have some lateral shift with an iron hitting down on it.

 

Mike Adams has this "theory" on rear/center/front post swings. Each player is a little different. Its really helped my game by accepting/understanding that its ok to load on my rear leg with a small move off the ball.

 

 

[Krt22]

32 minutes ago, MysteryV said:

 

I understand your point, and perhaps my terminology was a bit off.  What would your definition of centered pivot be?  Rotation where the sacrum doesn't move laterally at all? I could definitely see that but what I meant here was that his hips stay within where they are at address exceptionally well.

 

The the part that really impressed me was how little his hips shift towards the target in the down swing.  

 

 

What is your definition of a centered pivot and why is that impressive/good?

[MonteScheinblum]

This is why I have always balked at pigeon holing swings of pros and oneself into made up terminology.

 

One plane-Two plane

Centered Pivot-Moving off the ball

Etc.

 

There is no rule that you can’t have some shift and a centered pivot.  

 

A good golf swing is a good golf swing.

 

See where your swing is lacking and improve it.

 

 

[MysteryV]

24 minutes ago, Kuuuch said:

To me it just looks like he's staying in flexion longer than most. The left leg really doesn't straighten all that much after impact which is imo why his hips don't "bump" all that much. 

 

I've worked with Dan on not staying in flexion for so long and making sure to still extend (hogan move) after impact into the follow through.

 

OP to answer your question, my favorite thing for legwork is using a medium resistance band (that chicks often use lol) and putting it above your knees. Helps keep the separation (snead squat) but also ensures you extend properly in the follow through. I worked with GG for awhile and I wasn't a fan of his legwork, I think he made it tougher than it needed to be. 

 

I actually have one of my GFs band hanging in my garage hitting bay right now.  😄.    Thanks for the reminder - maybe I'll get some reps in today.  

[getitdaily]

He's about as wide as you can get on the backswing. That's probably why he moves off the ball. Big power move. 

[getitdaily]

7 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

An exercise that helps mimic the power move that I do on a regular basis in the gym in the jump squat.  Don't need too much weight, just the bar and maybe 10 pound plates max on each side.  Another exercise I do to activate the hips are resistance band punches.  Olympic style lifts also help with adding explosiveness/power as well which I do as well. 

You do squat jumps with a barbell on your back?

 

Makes my back hurt just thinking about it. Dumbells yeah...barbell...nope

[MysteryV]

26 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

What is your definition of a centered pivot and why is that impressive/good?

 

I explained what I meant in the quote - simply that his hips have very little lateral movement - they stay centered within the boundaries set at address.  Just in case tone hasn't come through here - I'm in no way trying to argue the definition of the term - just trying to convey a description of something I saw and was impressed by.

 

The two primary reasons I find it noteworthy / impressive are because 1) he appears to have less bump than most pros I can think of, and 2) because it's something I've been working on and find difficult.

Edited July 19, 2022 by MysteryV
Poor grammar

[MysteryV]

38 minutes ago, CSagan said:

He looks to be a rear post swinger. Can't find an iron swing face on anywhere online. I'd imagine he'd have some lateral shift with an iron hitting down on it.

 

Mike Adams has this "theory" on rear/center/front post swings. Each player is a little different. Its really helped my game by accepting/understanding that its ok to load on my rear leg with a small move off the ball.

 

 

 

This is interesting.  I'd love to understand how he actions it.  Specifically what he does to "dial in GRF" for each player type.

 

 

[MysteryV]

31 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

This is why I have always balked at pigeon holing swings of pros and oneself into made up terminology.

 

One plane-Two plane

Centered Pivot-Moving off the ball

Etc.

 

There is no rule that you can’t have some shift and a centered pivot.  

 

A good golf swing is a good golf swing.

 

See where your swing is lacking and improve it.

 

 

 

Agreed.  Arguing definitions isn't a great use of time.  That said, all terminology is made up at some point, and in order to identify and communicate thoughts about improving, one needs well defined terminology to communicate.  It can be a frustrating cycle if the intent is argument rather than understanding.

[Krt22]

47 minutes ago, MysteryV said:

 

I explained what I meant in the quote - simply that his hips have very little lateral movement - they stay centered within the boundaries set at address.  Just in case tone hasn't come through here - I'm in no way trying to argue the definition of the term - just trying to convey a description of something I saw and was impressed by.

 

The two primary reasons I find it noteworthy / impressive are because 1) he appears to have less bump than most pros I can think of, and 2) because it's something I've been working on and find difficult.

Again I ask though, why is that impressive and or good? What makes you think implementing this will make you better? 

[MysteryV]

46 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Again I ask though, why is that impressive and or good? What makes you think implementing this will make you better? 

 

Many hours of video review of my swing / numbers, working with my coach, and a general interest in, love of thinking about, experimenting with, and enjoying discussion of the golf swing.

 

Even more specifically, my current path is 4 - 7 degrees out typically.  When I focus on the feeling of a lead knee structure on the way back, and delaying / reducing lateral bump towards the target - I find that my path gets closer to 1 - 3 degrees out, and my face control is improved.  

 

I started this thread to hear the feels of others as I have a few, but find it challenging to ingrain the change, and hearing how other people think about the same challenge is interesting, insightful, and hopefully helpful to everyone.

Edited July 19, 2022 by MysteryV

[jonsnow]

57 minutes ago, MysteryV said:

 

Agreed.  Arguing definitions isn't a great use of time.  That said, all terminology is made up at some point, and in order to identify and communicate thoughts about improving, one needs well defined terminology to communicate.  It can be a frustrating cycle if the intent is argument rather than understanding.

I think I see what is standing out to you the more I look at the video of his backswing. His head moves further right in relation to where it was at address than his right hip does, is that correct? I would normally expect to see the right hip move further right considering how much his head moves to the right. 

Edited July 19, 2022 by jonsnow

[MysteryV]

5 minutes ago, jonsnow said:

I think I see what is standing out to you the more I look at the video of his backswing. His head moves further right in relation to where it was at address than his right hip does, is that correct? I would normally expect to see the right hip move further right considering how much his head moves to the right. 

 

Interestingly, I hadn't really thought much about the backswing other than the similarity in structure to Will Zalatois' lead leg.  I was almost entirely focused on how little his lead hip moves toward the target in the downswing.

[glk]

Hideki doesn’t really  pause.  And from what I see young does pretty much the same thing - he is backing into the target at the top while his arms are still finishing.  
 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CSeduLMNIgM/?hl=en

[Krt22]

10 minutes ago, MysteryV said:

 

Many hours of video review of my swing / numbers, working with my coach, and a general interest in, love of thinking about, experimenting with, and enjoying discussion of the golf swing.

  I am not trying to badger you, but that does not answer the question. Very simple question, how or why is it beneficial? 

 

Rory for example does not do this and is one of the best drivers of the ball to play the game.

[MysteryV]

3 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

  I am not trying to badger you, but that does not answer the question. Very simple question, how or why is it beneficial? 

 

Rory for example does not do this and is one of the best drivers of the ball to play the game.

 

I think I edited my response to add more context around why as you were replying.

 

The reason I'm currently focused on Cam versus Rory is because I find that focusing on exaggerated moves is easier and often more helpful to think about rather than subtle, mixed movements.

[MysteryV]

11 minutes ago, glk said:

Hideki doesn’t really  pause.  And from what I see young does pretty much the same thing - he is backing into the target at the top while his arms are still finishing.  
 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CSeduLMNIgM/?hl=en

 

I love these posts from AMG.  To my eye, however, Hideki has a LOT more lateral hip movement towards the target.  Much more similar to Rory or some other folks.

 

With Cam Young, I feel like the lead hip stays far closer (if not entirely within / behind) where it was at setup.  

 

Take a look - perhaps I'm wrong or it's a camera trick - but when I watch video - and put a mouse cursor on his lead hip at setup - his hips stay behind / closer to that spot than anyone else I've seen.

[glk]

16 minutes ago, MysteryV said:

 

I love these posts from AMG.  To my eye, however, Hideki has a LOT more lateral hip movement towards the target.  Much more similar to Rory or some other folks.

 

With Cam Young, I feel like the lead hip stays far closer (if not entirely within / behind) where it was at setup.  

 

Take a look - perhaps I'm wrong or it's a camera trick - but when I watch video - and put a mouse cursor on his lead hip at setup - his hips stay behind / closer to that spot than anyone else I've seen.

I see him moving everything back.       Other move more but he certainly appears to have the shurn pattern.

 

 

 

[CSagan]

Somebody find us a face on iron shot please. 
 

I think he’s just hitting up on the driver and is keeping his left hip inside his left foot as he rotated through. I hit up 4 and have a similar look face on with driver and less so with an iron. Wonder what his driver AoA numbers are. 

[Oldboy]

Chamblee on GC made a comment about his very centered pivot.. maybe that’s where this is originating from

 

His swing looks like a lot of others on tour imo

[Krt22]

1 hour ago, MysteryV said:

 

I think I edited my response to add more context around why as you were replying.

 

The reason I'm currently focused on Cam versus Rory is because I find that focusing on exaggerated moves is easier and often more helpful to think about rather than subtle, mixed movements.

7 accorss it is a lot more than just your hips. Oddly enough Rory clearly makes a lateral shift and he can draw driver as good as anyone on tour, so not sure if there is any correlation there 

[Valtiel]

5 hours ago, MysteryV said:

 

I understand your point, and perhaps my terminology was a bit off.  What would your definition of centered pivot be?  Rotation where the sacrum doesn't move laterally at all? I could definitely see that but what I meant here was that his hips stay within where they are at address exceptionally well.

 

The the part that really impressed me was how little his hips shift towards the target in the down swing.  

 

 

2 hours ago, MysteryV said:

With Cam Young, I feel like the lead hip stays far closer (if not entirely within / behind) where it was at setup.  

Whether there is a term for this or not (@CSagan mentioned "rear post swinger" above), I think it's just a simple order of operations kind of thing. Cam Young in this gif sets up with the ball actually a bit further BACK in this stance than most power hitters with his weight seemingly center more over it. He then makes a big move to get behind that ball, and largely stays back there via upper body tilt. He still moves the lower body back to where it started, but you're right in that he "shifts" less than most. However he also shifts back *more* than most initially, so its all just a feel thing that balances out. 



The position he gets into in the backswing is one that a lot of other guys preset a lot more at address (Xander for example). Just different ways to go about achieving a similar goal (@Flemnomucus this is actually a bit of what I was going to touch in reply to your thread re: setup and tilt away from the ball etc).

Edited July 19, 2022 by Valtiel

[CSagan]

I like your style @Valtiel

 

So to go back to mystery's original question.

 

Load into right leg, let her rip tater chip.

 

Looks like he's super wide lots of extensor action with right arm at top, loaded into right leg...pause..rotate THEN extend. I don't like the jump feeling. I remember hitting balls half speed just feeling rotation without ever extending so your knees are bent at impact hips are open...do that a few times then do it and extend right after impact. I think a lot of people get to the top and then try and jump as hard as possible and that isn't the sequence (ask me how I know).