Da 2023 college fooball 🏈

[golfortennis]

18 hours ago, deadsolid...shank said:

Have you missed the the last couple years since NIL started?  There’s no loyalty on either side. It’s a free agent bidding war out there. 
 

Although I’ve always felt that if the coach that recruited you leaves, you should be able to transfer “penalty” free. 

 

This thread is full of people who think a player should have to stay no matter what.  Even though college is suppose to be about an individual setting themselves up for the future, these guys need to put their personal goals, aspirations and professional prospects aside and subsume themselves into the logo.  

[tatertot]

1 hour ago, golfortennis said:

 

This thread is full of people who think a player should have to stay no matter what.  Even though college is suppose to be about an individual setting themselves up for the future, these guys need to put their personal goals, aspirations and professional prospects aside and subsume themselves into the logo.  

Here's the problem ... College sports are attractive to a lot of folks because you get to see these young players develop, and it's different than pro sports. If they legislate "free agency" for players (which is best for the players themselves), they may kill college sports, and then the players won't have anything.

[golfortennis]

1 hour ago, tatertot said:

Here's the problem ... College sports are attractive to a lot of folks because you get to see these young players develop, and it's different than pro sports. If they legislate "free agency" for players (which is best for the players themselves), they may kill college sports, and then the players won't have anything.

 

Maybe college sports done need killin'.   

[deadsolid...shank]

3 hours ago, golfortennis said:

 

Maybe college sports done need killin'.   

At least the ones that TV money is running.  

 

[golfortennis]

1 hour ago, deadsolid...shank said:

At least the ones that TV money is running.  

 

 

When you look at places like Cal, or UAB, or even Eastern Michigan, just what on earth is going on?  Professional leagues want players, they can run their own minor leagues.  "This is how it has always been done" is never a good reason to continue with something bad, and the fact a lot of people might lose out on their gravy train isn't either.

[deadsolid...shank]

1 minute ago, golfortennis said:

 

When you look at places like Cal, or UAB, or even Eastern Michigan, just what on earth is going on?  Professional leagues want players, they can run their own minor leagues.  "This is how it has always been done" is never a good reason to continue with something bad, and the fact a lot of people might lose out on their gravy train isn't either.

Sorry but I have no idea what is going on at those three places. 
 

Baseball (to me the, the ideal setup between college and pro), wrestling, volleyball, track & field, etc all are operating well at the collegiate level. You don’t hear of constant issues. Why?  No TV money driving them (or at least not the obscene amounts). And no huge lucrative pro money waiting. They are working. 
 

While I won’t disagree with you in regards the the mess that football and basketball are a huge mess, most of the others are fine. You seem to hold all the athletes infallible in this entire mess. That they are getting exploited. Well isn’t that what many of them are doing in return? They’re shopping themselves to the highest bidder. Seems kind of hypocritical to me. 
 

Bottom line.  Every year they spend at an institution, they are getting “paid” with a $50-100K per year education (plus NIL $$$ now too). Wether they choose to take advantage of that is completely on them. 
 

I honestly don’t get where your grudge is now, the athletes hold all the cards. Outside of the fact that they can’t go play for a different team every single season. 

[bscinstnct]

15 hours ago, golfortennis said:

 

Maybe college sports done need killin'.   

 

Who will replace the multi billion dollar investments that institution/colleges make in the infrastructure and organizations to enable its operation?

 

How does killin college sports, in your mind, get from where it is now, to where you see it going, without the system that’s in place now?

 

Let the players run it? Lol

 

Let the players hire representation and organizations to actually invest and allocate the many billions required to build and run it in their interest? It would be epic to see this attempted. They’ll take half the players money and it will be a dumpster fire. 

Edited January 15 by bscinstnct

[golfortennis]

12 hours ago, deadsolid...shank said:

Sorry but I have no idea what is going on at those three places. 
 

Baseball (to me the, the ideal setup between college and pro), wrestling, volleyball, track & field, etc all are operating well at the collegiate level. You don’t hear of constant issues. Why?  No TV money driving them (or at least not the obscene amounts). And no huge lucrative pro money waiting. They are working. 
 

While I won’t disagree with you in regards the the mess that football and basketball are a huge mess, most of the others are fine. You seem to hold all the athletes infallible in this entire mess. That they are getting exploited. Well isn’t that what many of them are doing in return? They’re shopping themselves to the highest bidder. Seems kind of hypocritical to me. 
 

Bottom line.  Every year they spend at an institution, they are getting “paid” with a $50-100K per year education (plus NIL $$$ now too). Wether they choose to take advantage of that is completely on them. 
 

I honestly don’t get where your grudge is now, the athletes hold all the cards. Outside of the fact that they can’t go play for a different team every single season. 

The grudge is, again, sports being tied to schools.  As to the schools I mentioned, here's just one article:

 

https://www.denverpost.com/2023/01/20/ucla-and-cal-athletics-financial-reports-paint-gloomy-pictures-add-context-for-both-to-the-big-ten-situation/

 

UAB went to shut down it's football program because it was costing the school mega money, same with Eastern Michigan, but then had to reverse things due to alumni pressure, although the financial consequences of continuing have not been fully assessed yet.  

 

Student fees should not be used to prop up athletic departments in this degree, particularly when less than 2% of the student population can ever access those facilities without buying a ticket.  

 

You can choose to accept the tuition as the "value" of the "education", but price does not equal value in my mind.  Especially when both administrators outnumber profs these days on campuses, and, you are being told what classes and sometimes majors you can pursue based on the classes conflicting with practice.  That "tuition" is not "paying" the player anything in a lot of cases.

 

And that's not even getting into the realm of all these spots at colleges keep these kids spending more time on a dream that will not happen(a professional career) and parents spending all this money on training, etc., when in reality, the old cruel to be kind would probably be in order(ie, kid actually puts his efforts into something that will end up paying him).  And if you want to go even further, even if we were to stipulate that athletic development is a mission of a college, why are US schools using US taxpayer money(through direct grants or tax shelters) to fund scholarships for so many foreign athletes? 

[golfortennis]

3 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Who will replace the multi billion dollar investments that institution/colleges make in the infrastructure and organizations to enable its operation?

 

How does killin college sports, in your mind, get from where it is now, to where you see it going, without the system that’s in place now?

 

Let the players run it? Lol

 

Let the players hire representation and organizations to actually invest and allocate the many billions required to build and run it in their interest? It would be epic to see this attempted. They’ll take half the players money and it will be a dumpster fire. 

 

Not sure what you are referring to in the first paragraph?  You don't think the athletic departments, which are standalone entities only loosely tied to the schools(basically tight enough to maintain tax shelters and NCAA eligibility), actually turn over money to the school on a regular basis, do you?  There is the odd time it happens.  I know Nebraska did something a few years ago, and Bobby Knight, despite being the devil incarnate in many eyes,  turned over the shoe money to the library.  BUt most athletic departments are ploughing that money into crazy locker rooms with each kid having a plasma TV at his locker, a hologram image of himself above, waterslides in the practice facility.... 

 

Killing college sports means the pro leagues run their own development academies.  If they want players to be a certain way, they can pay for it.  Colleges have their mission, and developing athletes for professional leagues isn't part of it. 

 

Other than rowing, does anyone ever hear of Oxford vs Cambridge in any kind of sporting competition?  Can you name any schools in France?  No, because their professional leagues have academies to get the athletes in there.  School is one thing and sports are another.   

[bscinstnct]

11 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

Not sure what you are referring to in the first paragraph?  You don't think the athletic departments, which are standalone entities only loosely tied to the schools(basically tight enough to maintain tax shelters and NCAA eligibility), actually turn over money to the school on a regular basis, do you?  There is the odd time it happens.  I know Nebraska did something a few years ago, and Bobby Knight, despite being the devil incarnate in many eyes,  turned over the shoe money to the library.  BUt most athletic departments are ploughing that money into crazy locker rooms with each kid having a plasma TV at his locker, a hologram image of himself above, waterslides in the practice facility.... 

 

Killing college sports means the pro leagues run their own development academies.  If they want players to be a certain way, they can pay for it.  Colleges have their mission, and developing athletes for professional leagues isn't part of it. 

 

Other than rowing, does anyone ever hear of Oxford vs Cambridge in any kind of sporting competition?  Can you name any schools in France?  No, because their professional leagues have academies to get the athletes in there.  School is one thing and sports are another.   

 

“Killing college sports means the pro leagues run their own development academies.”

 

A grandiose notion, does the NFL build it in cooperation with the teams? Then build stadiums (billions 💰) and the teams of thousands of people required to coach, manage, and operate, all of this?

 

if you can outline, in the most general terms, the process and timetable to plan and launch this, Id be very interested in hearing it ; )

 

Like Pablo said,

 

 

[golfortennis]

12 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

“Killing college sports means the pro leagues run their own development academies.”

 

A grandiose notion, does the NFL build it in cooperation with the teams? Then build stadiums (billions 💰) and the teams of thousands of people required to coach, manage, and operate, all of this?

 

if you can outline, in the most general terms, the process and timetable to plan and launch this, Id be very interested in hearing it ; )

 

Like Pablo said,

 

 

 

First of all, suggesting removing sports from colleges does not come with a requirement to suggest how the NFL or any other sports league should handle it.  They can figure it out.  

 

But the one thing I can say is why would they need stadiums that cost billions?  Nobody watches the G league, and they don't play in massive arenas.  Secondly, how on earth do you think there will be a need for so many people?  Baseball teams have 4 minor league teams in their system.  The football teams would have a few more players given the nature of rosters, but if you're assuming everyone who straps the pads at Montana St is going to be in this academy system, you're sorely mistaken.  Teams aren't going to waste their time on guys who don't have a chance.  I saw there are somewhere around 71,000 college football players.  Minor leagues would have 5-7000 likely. 

 

But again, it's not my problem to solve what the NFL might consider to be a problem.   

[bscinstnct]

2 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

First of all, suggesting removing sports from colleges does not come with a requirement to suggest how the NFL or any other sports league should handle it.  They can figure it out.  

 

But the one thing I can say is why would they need stadiums that cost billions?  Nobody watches the G league, and they don't play in massive arenas.  Secondly, how on earth do you think there will be a need for so many people?  Baseball teams have 4 minor league teams in their system.  The football teams would have a few more players given the nature of rosters, but if you're assuming everyone who straps the pads at Montana St is going to be in this academy system, you're sorely mistaken.  Teams aren't going to waste their time on guys who don't have a chance.  I saw there are somewhere around 71,000 college football players.  Minor leagues would have 5-7000 likely. 

 

But again, it's not my problem to solve what the NFL might consider to be a problem.   

 

“They can figure it out. “

 

5000 players, say 50 per team, 100 teams playing hundreds and hundred of games between them all. 
 

Thats quite a bit to figure out ; )

 

I understand your sentiment, it just is irreconcilable with reality. 

 

 

[golfortennis]

40 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

“They can figure it out. “

 

5000 players, say 50 per team, 100 teams playing hundreds and hundred of games between them all. 
 

Thats quite a bit to figure out ; )

 

I understand your sentiment, it just is irreconcilable with reality. 

 

 

 

I am not so idealistic as to think the cat is going back in the bag.  But new leagues spring up all the time in many sport.  It's not the impossible dream you seem to think it would be.  

[Kmagnuss]

This thread sucks now... and my dad can beat up your dad.

 

Go BLUE!  (probably won't crack top 10 next year but it was fun)

[tatertot]

2 hours ago, Kmagnuss said:

This thread sucks now... and my dad can beat up your dad.

 

Go BLUE!  (probably won't crack top 10 next year but it was fun)

Per CBSSports.com ...

 

Jim Harbaugh is requesting contractual protection from potential NCAA punishment amid negotiations with Michigan as he simultaneously pursues NFL opportunities, according to Yahoo Sports. Harbaugh, 60, just led Michigan to its first national championship since 1997, but it was a tumultuous season off the field marked by two separate three-game suspensions for the Wolverines alum. 

 

I guess it doesn't hurt to ask ... I'd love to see Harbaugh leave, Sherrone Moore takeover, and the team not miss a beat. Harbaugh is a tool.

[TiScape]

3 hours ago, Kmagnuss said:

This thread sucks now... and my dad can beat up your dad.

 

Go BLUE!  (probably won't crack top 10 next year but it was fun)

Yes, as blade’ told us a while ago (after all the SEC teams were out) college FB is over! Move along now 😊

[bladehunter]

On 1/14/2024 at 12:59 PM, golfortennis said:

 

This thread is full of people who think a player should have to stay no matter what.  Even though college is suppose to be about an individual setting themselves up for the future, these guys need to put their personal goals, aspirations and professional prospects aside and subsume themselves into the logo.  

The truth lies in the middle.  
 

one extreme or the other is the wrong  path. 

[bladehunter]

On 1/16/2024 at 1:01 PM, tatertot said:

Per CBSSports.com ...

 

Jim Harbaugh is requesting contractual protection from potential NCAA punishment amid negotiations with Michigan as he simultaneously pursues NFL opportunities, according to Yahoo Sports. Harbaugh, 60, just led Michigan to its first national championship since 1997, but it was a tumultuous season off the field marked by two separate three-game suspensions for the Wolverines alum. 

 

I guess it doesn't hurt to ask ... I'd love to see Harbaugh leave, Sherrone Moore takeover, and the team not miss a beat. Harbaugh is a tool.

Lol. But he’s innocent ! 😇 

[TiScape]

14 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Lol. But he’s innocent ! 😇 

Watching ESPN they just showed an interview he did at an event. He said straight up “passing the torch”. It was obvious to me that he was eluding to leaving and passing the torch to Moore. And we all know Jim knew exactly what was going on, as dude’s a tot control freak. #nobrainer

So he got M a national championship and will now leave before they potentially lose scholarships and aren’t able to play in bowl games. I bet most ‘Go Blue’ homers would gladly take that trade off. 

[mshills]

1 minute ago, bladehunter said:

The truth lies in the middle.  
 

one extreme or the other is the wrong  path. 

 

EXACTLY.

 

The prior system was not equitable and one possible outcome would have been the athletes unionizing.  That option was seen as untenable, the NCAA either could not move quickly or lacked creativity and leadership, so here we are with the Wild West approach, on which the outcome is likely to be super-concentration of elite programs.

 

It is happening in non-revenue sports -- will use wrestling as an example where the transferring and NIL money (very small in this case relative to football) has concentrated talent in a couple of programs.  The team duals are now uncompetitive.  The best thing to do is just tune in for the individual championship tournament.

 

I read an article about a week ago that mentioned some player, I think at Ohio State, who'd either decided not to transfer or....something.  Anyhow, the damning phrase was "....player yyyyy will return next year, an indication that the university's NIL collective is willing to invest."

 

Here's what it will take to compete for national titles in football now:

• Size.  A university with many times as many living alumni will be able to raise more money.  More money wins.
• Professional schools.  A university that focuses on undergraduate education and lacks elite graduate programs in fields like medicine, law, business is now at a major disadvantage.

Texas, Michigan, Georgia, Ohio State I see as the lead dogs at the moment.  Southern Cal, Texas A&M, Penn State, and maybe Florida and/or LSU come to mind as others with the available resources, but lots of work to do elsewhere.  I do not think Alabama will be in the new world what we are used to seeing in the old, but I could be wrong.  Clemson, Florida State, Auburn, and many others are at a significant disadvantage now.

 

Your point is right on.  Going back to the prior system is not going to happen, but the current approach is not sustainable.

[mshills]

I forgot Oregon, I think that program has the tools at their disposal to win titles now.

 

One other point.  The era we have just exited was dominated by a small number of programs too.  That is not lost on me for a variety of reasons 🙂.  My point is that the number of dominant programs is likely to be much more static now, as it's going to be exceedingly difficult for a respectable but not elite program to become elite.

[golfortennis]

56 minutes ago, mshills said:

 

EXACTLY.

 

The prior system was not equitable and one possible outcome would have been the athletes unionizing.  That option was seen as untenable, the NCAA either could not move quickly or lacked creativity and leadership, so here we are with the Wild West approach, on which the outcome is likely to be super-concentration of elite programs.

 

It is happening in non-revenue sports -- will use wrestling as an example where the transferring and NIL money (very small in this case relative to football) has concentrated talent in a couple of programs.  The team duals are now uncompetitive.  The best thing to do is just tune in for the individual championship tournament.

 

I read an article about a week ago that mentioned some player, I think at Ohio State, who'd either decided not to transfer or....something.  Anyhow, the damning phrase was "....player yyyyy will return next year, an indication that the university's NIL collective is willing to invest."

 

Here's what it will take to compete for national titles in football now:

• Size.  A university with many times as many living alumni will be able to raise more money.  More money wins.
• Professional schools.  A university that focuses on undergraduate education and lacks elite graduate programs in fields like medicine, law, business is now at a major disadvantage.

Texas, Michigan, Georgia, Ohio State I see as the lead dogs at the moment.  Southern Cal, Texas A&M, Penn State, and maybe Florida and/or LSU come to mind as others with the available resources, but lots of work to do elsewhere.  I do not think Alabama will be in the new world what we are used to seeing in the old, but I could be wrong.  Clemson, Florida State, Auburn, and many others are at a significant disadvantage now.

 

Your point is right on.  Going back to the prior system is not going to happen, but the current approach is not sustainable.

 

So a different environment but basically the same schools.  Clemson has only recently become a steady power(the old ACC was like Kentucky basketball in the SEC), Auburn was always up and down. In the 60s and 70s, if you said this year's national champ will be one of USC, Ohio State, Alabama, Michigan, Notre Dame, Texas, Oklahoma or Nebraska, you were pretty much guaranteed to be right.  So Nebraska and Notre Dame have fallen off that list, and maybe FSU and Oregon or Clemson or Georgia replace them.  There are a few more schools now because of scholarship limits, but really, the landscape hasn't changed that much in terms of who will be there at the end.  

 

It was a super concentration of elite programs way back when.  Why do you think the BIg Ten was nearly always won by Michigan or Ohio State?  They could hoard all the linemen, cause back in the day, professional football wasn't the same call it was now, so plenty of guys were happy to sit the bench at Michigan than slug it out playing for Purdue.  Army and Navy used to get the best athletes for a time.

 

The only thing that has changed is that it's athletes now in control of their destinies, not the institutions, but the same schools are still coming out on top.  Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, TiScape said:

Watching ESPN they just showed an interview he did at an event. He said straight up “passing the torch”. It was obvious to me that he was eluding to leaving and passing the torch to Moore. And we all know Jim knew exactly what was going on, as dude’s a tot control freak. #nobrainer

So he got M a national championship and will now leave before they potentially lose scholarships and aren’t able to play in bowl games. I bet most ‘Go Blue’ homers would gladly take that trade off. 

Yep. That’s my take too. Hoping to tell the ncaa “ I’m going away if you just leave them alone , so problem solved “.   Not really in my opinion.  If they actually cheated they should  vacate the title etc. of course I’m a guy who wants to see proof.  Testimony etc. but if that exists , you can’t let it go , can you ?  

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, mshills said:

 

EXACTLY.

 

The prior system was not equitable and one possible outcome would have been the athletes unionizing.  That option was seen as untenable, the NCAA either could not move quickly or lacked creativity and leadership, so here we are with the Wild West approach, on which the outcome is likely to be super-concentration of elite programs.

 

It is happening in non-revenue sports -- will use wrestling as an example where the transferring and NIL money (very small in this case relative to football) has concentrated talent in a couple of programs.  The team duals are now uncompetitive.  The best thing to do is just tune in for the individual championship tournament.

 

I read an article about a week ago that mentioned some player, I think at Ohio State, who'd either decided not to transfer or....something.  Anyhow, the damning phrase was "....player yyyyy will return next year, an indication that the university's NIL collective is willing to invest."

 

Here's what it will take to compete for national titles in football now:

• Size.  A university with many times as many living alumni will be able to raise more money.  More money wins.
• Professional schools.  A university that focuses on undergraduate education and lacks elite graduate programs in fields like medicine, law, business is now at a major disadvantage.

Texas, Michigan, Georgia, Ohio State I see as the lead dogs at the moment.  Southern Cal, Texas A&M, Penn State, and maybe Florida and/or LSU come to mind as others with the available resources, but lots of work to do elsewhere.  I do not think Alabama will be in the new world what we are used to seeing in the old, but I could be wrong.  Clemson, Florida State, Auburn, and many others are at a significant disadvantage now.

 

Your point is right on.  Going back to the prior system is not going to happen, but the current approach is not sustainable.

Agree with all that.  It’s made me wonder ( selfishly ) if I stand a better or worse chance in my lifetime of seeing a winning South Carolina team. By winning I mean a 10-2 11-1 team that at least contends ?    I’ve never understood why it’s so hard to rise above the Vanderbilt level. Facilities are top.  As you said , a large post graduate program in alot of fields. Including MUSC … we regularly  churn out top NFL prospects who a lot of the times turn into top nfl players. And yet it never really clicks. 

 

I feel like somehow it’s going to be worse for schools like South Carolina and Vanderbilt or the wake forests etc. but not easier for Alabama.  But it’s just a gut feeling at this point.  

Edited January 22 by bladehunter

[bscinstnct]

I wanna see The U make comeback!  🤣

 

 

 

 

[bladehunter]

55 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

I wanna see The U make comeback!  🤣

 

 

 

 

Yep. Another program that cannot seem to get above mediocrity.  

[mshills]

2 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Yep. Another program that cannot seem to get above mediocrity.  

 

I was a Miami fan when I was a kid and I still root for them except when Clemson plays them.  In my circle of friends you were either an ND fan or a Miami fan and I did not like ND, so gimmie the U!

 

Ended up living one town south of Coral Gables for 3 years and learned a bit about what ails that program from some friends I made who were in the know.  Biggest problem is the administration, athletic department, and faculty continually being at odds without full alignment on what athletics should be.  This is not a problem unique to Miami but I was told it's always been a major issue there and Johnson, Coker, et. al. succeeded despite constant tension and infighting.

 

Sub-par facilities, no place to put world-class practice facilities even if they wanted to, no dedicated stadium and no place to build one even if they wanted to....not helpful either.

[bscinstnct]

2 minutes ago, mshills said:

 

I was a Miami fan when I was a kid and I still root for them except when Clemson plays them.  In my circle of friends you were either an ND fan or a Miami fan and I did not like ND, so gimmie the U!

 

Ended up living one town south of Coral Gables for 3 years and learned a bit about what ails that program from some friends I made who were in the know.  Biggest problem is the administration, athletic department, and faculty continually being at odds without full alignment on what athletics should be.  This is not a problem unique to Miami but I was told it's always been a major issue there and Johnson, Coker, et. al. succeeded despite constant tension and infighting.

 

Sub-par facilities, no place to put world-class practice facilities even if they wanted to, no dedicated stadium and no place to build one even if they wanted to....not helpful either.

 

“In my circle of friends you were either an ND fan or a Miami fan and I did not like ND,”

 

[golfortennis]

2 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Yep. Another program that cannot seem to get above mediocrity.  

 

Either that or being in a conference has exposed a lot of the "independents" people used to think were powers.  More than a few schools who are no longer considered what they once were now that they play conference schedules.

[TiScape]

3 hours ago, mshills said:

 

I was a Miami fan when I was a kid and I still root for them except when Clemson plays them.  In my circle of friends you were either an ND fan or a Miami fan and I did not like ND, so gimmie the U!

 

Ended up living one town south of Coral Gables for 3 years and learned a bit about what ails that program from some friends I made who were in the know.  Biggest problem is the administration, athletic department, and faculty continually being at odds without full alignment on what athletics should be.  This is not a problem unique to Miami but I was told it's always been a major issue there and Johnson, Coker, et. al. succeeded despite constant tension and infighting.

 

Sub-par facilities, no place to put world-class practice facilities even if they wanted to, no dedicated stadium and no place to build one even if they wanted to....not helpful either.

Remind me of