Da 2023 college fooball 🏈

[TiScape]

14 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Then why ask me ?  This is the problem. .  Don’t want to hear it. Don’t ask.  This is how I get revved up.  You can go back and look , it’s always in response , im rarely an attacker. But folks ask question they don’t want answers to. Then complain of my response.  🤣.  I’m not at all sore at you or anybody.  But again. You asked.  😉. 
 

to the question I’ll add.  The rant comes from folks talking to me as if my original opinion was crazy.  Unfounded. Maybe even a troll job.  Neither is true.  But that’s how it was refuted.  Now. After the fact , coaches , media etc who vote , seem to agree with what I said.  And if they don’t know the most on the topic. .  Who does ?  I didn’t search out that info. Didn’t give it another thought. But ye olde Google feed sent the headlines my way.  Each time I clicked. Read. Laughed. Copied the link and posted it. @bscinstnctdirectly , because it was part of a productive conversation we were having.  Mainly for fun.  
 

All because of being talked to like I’m crazy.  All the while , and several openly admitted after , that they at least partially agreed , and fully understood what I was saying , even though at the time they pretend to not , instead leaning to their own biases while calling me “ Homer “ etc. which I’m cool with so long as everyone can admit their own.  Surprise. They didn’t.  Some even quip  after the fact about their team being a 12th seed for next years playoff. Knowing full well their team isn’t top 25.  🤣…but hey. I’m sure the coaches and the press know less than those here. If you notice , I agreed with anyone who would simply concede that the system is obviously flawed to the point of being silly.    That was the point.  

My post was more of a statement in nature than a question blade. Sorry for the confusion 😊

[nsxguy]

56 minutes ago, TiScape said:

My post was more of a statement in nature than a question blade. Sorry for the confusion 😊

 

The blade be like

 

[bscinstnct]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

Bigger news. Saban is retiring.  How much will they pay Dabo to come to Tuscaloosa!? 

 

He no dummy

 

The next generation of players is not going to be like you tell them,

 

”Jump!”

 

And they say,,

 

“Yes coach! How high?!”

 

Next gen be like,

 

”Maaannn, you jump, old man, I’m on the phone with Taco Bell, clockin digits yo!”

 

But, Harbaugh showed you can work the portal and NIL and build a great team of guys who are “with the program”

 

But gonna be crazy days tryin be a big time college coach going forward 
 

[bscinstnct]

46 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

The blade be like

 

 

Arguin Blade be like,

 

 

 

 

 

🤣 cheers 🍻 @bladehunter!!

 

Youre my friend! 😃

 

 

[mshills]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

Bigger news. Saban is retiring.  How much will they pay Dabo to come to Tuscaloosa!? 

 

As much as they've got.

 

I'd be lying if I think he wouldn't possibly take that job.  He might.  I damn sure hope he doesn't.

 

Either way.....I am still thankful I got to see the titles before CFB fouled their own nest.

[TiScape]

18 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

The blade be like

 

He like, don’t b mad at me! Ur the one that pushed the start button! 😂 

Edited January 11 by TiScape

[tatertot]

2 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Then why ask me ?  This is the problem. .  Don’t want to hear it. Don’t ask.  This is how I get revved up.  You can go back and look , it’s always in response , im rarely an attacker. But folks ask question they don’t want answers to. Then complain of my response.  🤣.  I’m not at all sore at you or anybody.  But again. You asked.  😉. 
 

to the question I’ll add.  The rant comes from folks talking to me as if my original opinion was crazy.  Unfounded. Maybe even a troll job.  Neither is true.  But that’s how it was refuted.  Now. After the fact , coaches , media etc who vote , seem to agree with what I said.  And if they don’t know the most on the topic. .  Who does ?  I didn’t search out that info. Didn’t give it another thought. But ye olde Google feed sent the headlines my way.  Each time I clicked. Read. Laughed. Copied the link and posted it. @bscinstnctdirectly , because it was part of a productive conversation we were having.  Mainly for fun.  
 

All because of being talked to like I’m crazy.  All the while , and several openly admitted after , that they at least partially agreed , and fully understood what I was saying , even though at the time they pretend to not , instead leaning to their own biases while calling me “ Homer “ etc. which I’m cool with so long as everyone can admit their own.  Surprise. They didn’t.  Some even quip  after the fact about their team being a 12th seed for next years playoff. Knowing full well their team isn’t top 25.  🤣…but hey. I’m sure the coaches and the press know less than those here. If you notice , I agreed with anyone who would simply concede that the system is obviously flawed to the point of being silly.    That was the point.  

The idea that Georgia was getting into the playoffs after losing the SEC title game was crazy. Not with the seasons other teams were having.

 

BTW ... Most watched championship game in 4 years.

 

Does this remind you of anybody?

 

 

 

Edited January 11 by tatertot

[bladehunter]

10 hours ago, tatertot said:

The idea that Georgia was getting into the playoffs after losing the SEC title game was crazy. Not with the seasons other teams were having.

 

BTW ... Most watched championship game in 4 years.

 

Does this remind you of anybody?

 

 

 

I ain’t even able to read this.  Da football is over.  Our Season tickets for Dabasketball kicked in !   I was court side at the packed Wofford mighty Terriers ( sarcasm 🤣) game last night.  The band was rockin , no cheerleader died ( but a couple came close )we got on TV  and we had BJ Mack sit beside us half the game.  One of our best players from last year that the portal sucked up and spit out at U of South Carolina . 

[bladehunter]

15 hours ago, mshills said:

 

As much as they've got.

 

I'd be lying if I think he wouldn't possibly take that job.  He might.  I damn sure hope he doesn't.

 

Either way.....I am still thankful I got to see the titles before CFB fouled their own nest.

I just had to show this.  These idiots don’t know what a good thing is.  Students chanting “ anyone but Dabo”.  That’s amazingly ignorant to me. He’s clearly the best to keep the program as it’s been known - alive.   I understand you wanting to keep him. I agree with you.  But objectively that’s also why he’s the best one to do it.  I don’t know how anyone could say anyone but Dabo ?  Scroll down for the video.  
https://www.al.com/alabamafootball/2024/01/alabama-students-chant-who-they-dont-want-to-replace-nick-saban.html?outputType=amp

 

Edited January 11 by bladehunter

[golfortennis]

On 1/9/2024 at 7:29 PM, bscinstnct said:

 

NIL will make college football programs into media/marketing organizations. 

 

 

They already are.  Whenever suits are challenged as to why they should devote resources to this, they always trot out the "a successful football program leads to higher applications for admission, yada yada yada".  Y'all keep thinking this stuff is about "purity of competition" or any of that other pabulum. That's what the suits tell you to keep you interested, but it's always, first and foremost, about business.  Namely separating you from your money.  They just need to dress it up because if they are honest about it, then you'll just direct it towards the NFL, NBA, etc.  

 

(I am using the royal "you", not you specifically)

[bscinstnct]

32 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

They already are.  Whenever suits are challenged as to why they should devote resources to this, they always trot out the "a successful football program leads to higher applications for admission, yada yada yada".  Y'all keep thinking this stuff is about "purity of competition" or any of that other pabulum. That's what the suits tell you to keep you interested, but it's always, first and foremost, about business.  Namely separating you from your money.  They just need to dress it up because if they are honest about it, then you'll just direct it towards the NFL, NBA, etc.  

 

(I am using the royal "you", not you specifically)

“They already are. “

 

as I said, in the very post you quoted,

 

“Notre Dame just hired the former Chairman of NBC Sports as its…Athletic Director.”

 

 

Nobody thinks this is about anything besides money. Everything is always about money.

 

But nobody cares. All anybody cares about is 

 

What is good for me to watch on 📺 while I eat potato chips 🤣

 

 

Edited January 11 by bscinstnct

[mshills]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

I just had to show this.  These idiots don’t know what a good thing is.  Students chanting “ anyone but Dabo”.  That’s amazingly ignorant to me. He’s clearly the best to keep the program as it’s been known - alive.   I understand you wanting to keep him. I agree with you.  But objectively that’s also why he’s the best one to do it.  I don’t know how anyone could say anyone but Dabo ?  Scroll down for the video.  
https://www.al.com/alabamafootball/2024/01/alabama-students-chant-who-they-dont-want-to-replace-nick-saban.html?outputType=amp

 

 

LOL, man that is some deep ignorance there no doubt.  However....looks like about 20 students out of what, about 32,000 undergrads at Bama?  Good for them, they got their 15 seconds of youtube fame.

 

I don't get why they'd have that viewpoint other than clickbait.  His whole career he's been nothing but complimentary of Alabama (for good reason) and Gene Stallings at 88 years young is still a very close friend and mentor.  Why would they not want someone who is from there, played there, and coached there?  Anyhow, I think "they" is about 25 people.

 

 

[tatertot]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

I just had to show this.  These idiots don’t know what a good thing is.  Students chanting “ anyone but Dabo”.  That’s amazingly ignorant to me. He’s clearly the best to keep the program as it’s been known - alive.   I understand you wanting to keep him. I agree with you.  But objectively that’s also why he’s the best one to do it.  I don’t know how anyone could say anyone but Dabo ?  Scroll down for the video.  
https://www.al.com/alabamafootball/2024/01/alabama-students-chant-who-they-dont-want-to-replace-nick-saban.html?outputType=amp

 

I love Dabo ... But he hasn't shown he can compete at the top level in the new NIL/portal landscape.

 

That being said ... He'd be my first choice at Bama, or just about anywhere else, especially the south.

[bladehunter]

24 minutes ago, mshills said:

 

LOL, man that is some deep ignorance there no doubt.  However....looks like about 20 students out of what, about 32,000 undergrads at Bama?  Good for them, they got their 15 seconds of youtube fame.

 

I don't get why they'd have that viewpoint other than clickbait.  His whole career he's been nothing but complimentary of Alabama (for good reason) and Gene Stallings at 88 years young is still a very close friend and mentor.  Why would they not want someone who is from there, played there, and coached there?  Anyhow, I think "they" is about 25 people.

 

 

Yep. I know. Definitely agree there. I guess I’m just always the shocked one with people.  I’m actually an eternal optimist , the negativity you see is generally the response to people proving me wrong yet again 🤣.  Meaning you give them the benefit of the doubt. And 25 of them will go “ hold my beer “ and prove you wrong.  🤨. Somehow those 25 were also the loudest.   It’s a paradox that I can’t seem to comprehend. 

[bladehunter]

24 minutes ago, tatertot said:

I love Dabo ... But he hasn't shown he can compete at the top level in the new NIL/portal landscape.

 

That being said ... He'd be my first choice at Bama, or just about anywhere else, especially the south.

Yep. I see that too. But I’d bet on him learning fast enough.  He’s too young to retire yet.  I mean he can afford it. But he won’t.  So he will adapt.  I’m not sure Saban was doing the nil /portal dance well either. And might even lead to this decision earlier than nature might have dictated otherwise.   

I don’t think anyone is necessarily doing it well. Although Mich did a good job with it in context.  Will it last more than one season ?  As in do they have to completely rebuild the team to win anything next year , or do the rising seniors stay ?  And they only need to fill gaps ?  I don’t know the answer.  But I can’t believe that after All the fizzle is died , that the ncaa  intends to let a situation stand where every team rebuilds completely every year ?  Thats lunacy.  And will only breed  an NBA type situation where most money wins and they just trade championships via buying a team.  Every 5 years we buy the best team and win.  That’s not sports.  That’s more like pro wrestling.  Scripted. 
 

 

who knows. I guess all we can do is wait. 

Edited January 11 by bladehunter

[tatertot]

1 minute ago, bladehunter said:

Yep. I see that too. But I’d bet on him learning fast enough.  He’s too young to retire yet.  I mean he can afford it. But he won’t.  So he will adapt.  I’m not sure Saban was doing the nil /portal dance well either. And might even lead to this decision earlier than nature might have dictated otherwise.   

I don’t think anyone is necessarily doing it well. Although Mich did a good job with it in context.  Will it last more than one season ?  As in do they have to completely rebuild the team to win anything next year , or do the job seniors stay ?  And they only need to fill gaps ?  I don’t know the answer.  But I can’t believe that after All the fizzle is died , that the ncaa  intends to let a situation stand where every team rebuilds completely every year ?  Thats lunacy.  And will only breed  an NBA type situation where most money wins and they just trade championships via buying a team.  Every 5 years we buy the best team and win.  That’s not sports.  That’s more like pro wrestling.  Scripted. 
 

 

who knows. I guess all we can do is wait. 

I think the NIL/portal situation cut 3-5 years off Saban's career. He can still out-coach and out-recruit anybody in the country, I just don't think he wanted to deal with the changes. And I don't blame him.

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, golfortennis said:

 

They already are.  Whenever suits are challenged as to why they should devote resources to this, they always trot out the "a successful football program leads to higher applications for admission, yada yada yada".  Y'all keep thinking this stuff is about "purity of competition" or any of that other pabulum. That's what the suits tell you to keep you interested, but it's always, first and foremost, about business.  Namely separating you from your money.  They just need to dress it up because if they are honest about it, then you'll just direct it towards the NFL, NBA, etc.  

 

(I am using the royal "you", not you specifically)

Agree there. But I’m the odd ball who will actually stop watching. I’ve seen me do it. Was the biggest baseball fan on earth pre 94. I quit cold turkey.  And I was a teen then.  It just turned me off.  Then the nba I went to.  They killed it. Somewhere around 2001 I stopped cold turkey. And went to college football.  Later golf.  Now they’re all trying to sell the rest of their souls. 🤷‍♂️.  
 

I understand the truth. It is for profit.  But at some point there was more balance.  Or at least enough illusion that it was palatable.  

[bladehunter]

1 minute ago, tatertot said:

I think the NIL/portal situation cut 3-5 years off Saban's career. He can still out-coach and out-recruit anybody in the country, I just don't think he wanted to deal with the changes. And I don't blame him.

Yep. I’d have quit too. Enjoy the grandkids.  Spend some $.  He’s smart.  No doubt. 

[TiScape]

6 hours ago, bladehunter said:

I ain’t even able to read this.  Da football is over.  Our Season tickets for Dabasketball kicked in !   I was court side at the packed Wofford mighty Terriers ( sarcasm 🤣) game last night.  The band was rockin , no cheerleader died ( but a couple came close )we got on TV  and we had BJ Mack sit beside us half the game.  One of our best players from last year that the portal sucked up and spit out at U of South Carolina . 

What m I lookin at here blade? Is that ur son’s HS 🏀 team? 

[deadsolid...shank]

Quite frankly, I don’t know why anyone would be in a hurry to jump to the Bama job. Saben (and Bear Bryant before) made Alabama what is is. Without them it’s not like it’s a dream destination job. 
It’s not like their facilities are way above anyone else’s, it not a recruiting hotbed. It’s not a glamorous city like LA. The allure has been their success. But that was Saben’s. 
 

Why would you leave the Oregon job for example, where there is boatloads of money and it easy to recruit to, to go follow a legend. How can someone succeed following Saben’s legacy. It’s almost a guaranteed fail. Take a look at Frank Solich who followed Tom Osborn at Nebraska. 
 

Travel is definitely easier in the SEC.  How many times will Oregon fly cross country next year?  While Bama travels what, 4-500 miles?

[TiScape]

9 minutes ago, deadsolid...shank said:

Quite frankly, I don’t know why anyone would be in a hurry to jump to the Bama job. Saben (and Bear Bryant before) made Alabama what is is. Without them it’s not like it’s a dream destination job. 
It’s not like their facilities are way above anyone else’s, it not a recruiting hotbed. It’s not a glamorous city like LA. The allure has been their success. But that was Saben’s. 
 

Why would you leave the Oregon job for example, where there is boatloads of money and it easy to recruit to, to go follow a legend. How can someone succeed following Saben’s legacy. It’s almost a guaranteed fail. Take a look at Frank Solich who followed Tom Osborn at Nebraska. 
 

Travel is definitely easier in the SEC.  How many times will Oregon fly cross country next year?  While Bama travels what, 4-500 miles?

Sure, but if Nick thought that way after Bear, there wouldn’t be a Saban and Alabama. 🤷🏼‍♂️ Most of those guys are cut from a different cloth and want to “climb the ladder” and embrace the challenge. 

Edited January 11 by TiScape

[mshills]

6 minutes ago, deadsolid...shank said:

Quite frankly, I don’t know why anyone would be in a hurry to jump to the Bama job. Saben (and Bear Bryant before) made Alabama what is is. Without them it’s not like it’s a dream destination job. 
It’s not like their facilities are way above anyone else’s, it not a recruiting hotbed. It’s not a glamorous city like LA. The allure has been their success. But that was Saben’s. 
 

Why would you leave the Oregon job for example, where there is boatloads of money and it easy to recruit to, to go follow a legend. How can someone succeed following Saben’s legacy. It’s almost a guaranteed fail. Take a look at Frank Solich who followed Tom Osborn at Nebraska. 
 

Travel is definitely easier in the SEC.  How many times will Oregon fly cross country next year?  While Bama travels what, 4-500 miles?

 

I don't know about that....Bama's facilities are on par with anyone else's, and I think they just spent something like $275M on major renovations to football facilities (not the stadium) alone.  Alabama is actually a recruiting hotbed that is also next to a couple other recruiting hotbeds (GA, FL, LA).  Most importantly, you've got complete alignment on the importance of football and dedication to winning between the university administration, the AD, and the head FB coach -- something many schools don't always have.

 

The main detraction is as you observed:  it's always tough to follow the legendary leader, and for that reason alone it's going to be a real tough job to take.  Six national titles is a high bar!

 

Easy to forget Bama was in the wilderness for quite a number of years after Stallings retired.  That whole situation was a mess before Saban got there.

[TiScape]

College FB coaching these days  is…

[golfortennis]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

Agree there. But I’m the odd ball who will actually stop watching. I’ve seen me do it. Was the biggest baseball fan on earth pre 94. I quit cold turkey.  And I was a teen then.  It just turned me off.  Then the nba I went to.  They killed it. Somewhere around 2001 I stopped cold turkey. And went to college football.  Later golf.  Now they’re all trying to sell the rest of their souls. 🤷‍♂️.  
 

I understand the truth. It is for profit.  But at some point there was more balance.  Or at least enough illusion that it was palatable.  

 

It was certainly an illusion.    Much rather see things be open and above board.  Say what you want about NIL, at least the paying of players isn't under the table like it once was.  

 

Think I posted it somewhere else in the thread, many years ago, Brooklyn Dodgers owner Walter O'Malley was asked whether he would rather win the world series in 4 or lose in 7.  He smiled, but didn't answer.  Because a 7 game series brought him more money, win or lose.  If the fact sports are a business, and thus you are a customer, not a "fan" is something you don't agree with, that is a decision you have to make, and frankly I applaud people who do walk away.  As I said, we're all customers.  No "team" is due our undying loyalty, our continued stream of cash, nor is there any "street cred" for having been a "diehard" during losing seasons.  And the fact you attended a particular school does not remove your ability, some might say duty, to cut ties if things change not to your liking.  Alumni pull donations for many reasons with the rest of the school, why are the sports teams immune?

[deadsolid...shank]

44 minutes ago, mshills said:

 

I don't know about that....Bama's facilities are on par with anyone else's, and I think they just spent something like $275M on major renovations to football facilities (not the stadium) alone.  Alabama is actually a recruiting hotbed that is also next to a couple other recruiting hotbeds (GA, FL, LA).  Most importantly, you've got complete alignment on the importance of football and dedication to winning between the university administration, the AD, and the head FB coach -- something many schools don't always have.

 

The main detraction is as you observed:  it's always tough to follow the legendary leader, and for that reason alone it's going to be a real tough job to take.  Six national titles is a high bar!

 

Easy to forget Bama was in the wilderness for quite a number of years after Stallings retired.  That whole situation was a mess before Saban got there.

I agree MS, they’re on par with everyone else. But not head and shoulders above. And recruiting, players didnt flock to Alabama because the facilities are just as good. It was because the staff offered them the best chance to go to the next level. They’re not going to have that incredible pull now. It’s going to be a different Alabama program that a new coach is stepping into. And you’re right they have that alignment to winning. But have a couple of so-so seasons. Or even a couple where they’re not in contention for the title and things get real dicey. 
 

You are 100% correct on one thing though. Coaches have big egos, they all think they can be the next great one. But they just don’t come along that often. It just seems to me (and this is just my particular thinking) that if I’m already pulling down 7 figures, I like where I’m at, and they’re not screaming for my head because I won “only” nine games, why jump into that pressure cooker?

 

I didn’t mean to imply it’s not a good recruiting area. There is obviously a lot of talent there. Just that Alabama is not Florida or Texas level of available talent. Although like you said, they are centrally located to all of those. 

[TiScape]

46 minutes ago, deadsolid...shank said:

You are 100% correct on one thing though. Coaches have big egos, they all think they can be the next great one. 

I say it 1st and MS get the quote! I’m gonna start lookin’ for my ego stroke elsewhere! 😆 

*when it suddenly dawns on you that maybe ur jus ‘blocked’ 🚫

😱😂

Edited January 11 by TiScape

[bscinstnct]

2 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Agree there. But I’m the odd ball who will actually stop watching. I’ve seen me do it. Was the biggest baseball fan on earth pre 94. I quit cold turkey.  And I was a teen then.  It just turned me off.  Then the nba I went to.  They killed it. Somewhere around 2001 I stopped cold turkey. And went to college football.  Later golf.  Now they’re all trying to sell the rest of their souls. 🤷‍♂️.  
 

I understand the truth. It is for profit.  But at some point there was more balance.  Or at least enough illusion that it was palatable.  

 

Ya me too! Like you said 

 

Its the eye test!

 

Cant hype garbage and tell people it’s good if they already know what “good” is
 

For frame of reference…This is good…

 

 

 

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, TiScape said:

What m I lookin at here blade? Is that ur son’s HS 🏀 team? 

🤣.  It’s opening warmups ( an hour before game time ) for wofford college . They’re in the so-con conference I believe.  With Furman and the citadel .   Small liberal arts school.  But expensive and snooty 😜. 
 

we have second row seats . Really good place to watch a game. They’ll have non conference people in like Clemson , UNC etc occasionally too.     It is where my kid would like to go play after HS. There or ECU.     He’s actually been followed on a few high school sports social sights by the wofford  track coach ( he’s a sophomore so illegal for them  To approach him yet ).  , who I ran against in HS.  But they follow players on these clearing house sites to show their interest.  Kind of a passive contact . Thats his most likely path to a paid for gig in college. Hes already running a 4.45 mile.   And that was fighting a hip issue.  Hes healthy now.  So look to go lower.    Basketball is much deeper talent pool.  .  I’m sure he can get on a team. But a scholarship is much harder for these team sports. 

[TiScape]

4 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

🤣.  It’s opening warmups ( an hour before game time ) for wofford college . They’re in the so-con conference I believe.  With Furman and the citadel .   Small liberal arts school.  But expensive and snooty 😜. 
 

we have second row seats . Really good place to watch a game. They’ll have non conference people in like Clemson , UNC etc occasionally too.     It is where my kid would like to go play after HS. There or ECU.     He’s actually been followed on a few high school sports social sights by the wofford  track coach ( he’s a sophomore so illegal for them  To approach him yet ).  , who I ran against in HS.  But they follow players on these clearing house sites to show their interest.  Kind of a passive contact . Thats his most likely path to a paid for gig in college. Hes already running a 4.45 mile.   And that was fighting a hip issue.  Hes healthy now.  So look to go lower.    Basketball is much deeper talent pool.  .  I’m sure he can get on a team. But a scholarship is much harder for these team sports. 

Yeah I was obviously funnin’ w/ya. I Goggled it. Dang, 1,800 undergraduate enrollment. That’s really small!

[bladehunter]

26 minutes ago, TiScape said:

Yeah I was obviously funnin’ w/ya. I Goggled it. Dang, 1,800 undergraduate enrollment. That’s really small!

Yep. It’s as “ intimate “ of a setting as I can imagine in a college that isn’t like a junior college or a city school etc.   it’s a very high standard school. most of the teachers , doctors , lawyers around here go to wofford or furman for the first 4 years before moving on for their graduate degree. It apparently plays very well for Musc , USC or Clemson if you’ve been to Wofford and got high marks. 
 

 

campus is like a small village inside the city of spartanburg.  You have the dorms central , and the various lecture halls surrounding them.  
Then on the outer rim is the colosseum, the football stadium , baseball stadium and the dining hall , apparel shops/bookstore  and the auditorium for their music etc programs. Or walk downtown for restaurants …No car needed for any of it.