Drop Zones on the Other Side of the Hazard

[North Texas]

Played a course over the weekend that had 2 par fours that you hit your 2nd shot over a hazard with drop zones on the other side of the hazard. I'm guessing mostly for pace of play issues as well as a consideration for the average Joe golfer and ladies.

 

Both were par 4's where the 2nd shot was over a hazard. But both had drop zones on the green side of the hazard. And on both it was possible to hit your tee shot into the hazard but it was not possible to hit the tee shot over the hazard. 

 

Obviously if you hit your 2nd shot into the hazard, there was a drop zone to go to the other side of the hazard. But the question came up what if you hit your tee shot into the hazard? Could you go to the drop zone on the other side of the hazard?

 

I'm also guessing that you would never see this in any type of competitive tournament. But I could also be wrong about that. 

[Colin L]

It doesn't make any difference to the relief options available to you whether it is your first or umpteenth shot that ends up in the penalty area.  The rules tell you what your choices are if your ball  is in the penalty area, that's all.   In this case a  dropping zone is one of the choices.

[limegreengent]

“ For example, when situating the dropping zone for a penalty area ,it should be set in a position where the player would still need  to negotiate the penalty area rather than being located on the putting green side of the penalty area.” 
Source - Committee Procedures .
 

This recommendation gives the Committee in charge of the competition some latitude in locating drop zones and their decision will be influenced by the standard / ability of the players competing.

Young players v adult players v elite players may need to be treated slightly different.

One shoe does not fit all!

When one is playing social games then “ your Committee “ decides the local rules of the day which maybe subject to any mandatory instructions regarding the course that you are playing.( i.e play prohibited areas)

 

Of course one can never guarantee on the competence of “ the committee” and whether the local rules are properly communicated  and whether the players take time  to read them.

e.g Dustin Johnson immediately springs to mind re Bunkers v sandy areas.!😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Edited October 21, 2022 by limegreengent

[antip]

On some courses I'm familiar with (including one I wrote the local rules for), the drop zone on the green side of a red penalty area is only available for a ball that last crossed the edge of the PA on the green side. 

The Committee is free to define this relief option how they want - the player needs to read the local rule carefully.

[betarhoalphadelta]

There's a little 9 hole exec course near me with the final hole being a 275y par 4. It's a dogleg left over a wide creek, basically setting up for any decent golfer to be a short-mid iron lay-up and then a wedge over the creek. There are fairway bunkers on the right side and everything in the fairway feeds towards the creek, and only a small sliver of land between the bunkers and the creek if you want a short shot over it into the green. 

 

Given that my miss is a draw, I usually play directly out at the fairway bunkers WELL right of the fairway with a club that won't reach the bunkers (sometimes as short as 9i depending on the tee location), leaving typically PW/GW full swing over the creek. If I turn it left a bit, then I'm hitting 52/56* wedge over the creek, but should be safe from getting wet off the tee. 

 

However, like most 9 hole exec courses, it's populated by complete golf newbies, children, etc. Some of which simply can't get the ball in the air sufficiently to clear the creek no matter how many chances they get. So they put a drop zone on the other side right next to the green rather than expect 8 year olds to constantly pump ball after ball into the creek. The drop zone's intent, of course, is for players who have advanced through the fairway and THEN put it into the creek. 

 

I would never actually do this, but I've always wondered the same thing about whether putting my tee shot into the creek entails me to use the drop zone on the other side. If so, the optimal play would be to be as aggressive as I want with the tee ball knowing that putting the ball in the penalty area makes it hard to get worse than bogey and a decent chance at up and down for par, and given that I'm a bogey golfer anyway, it might be the statistically best choice. 

 

 

[antip]

59 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

There's a little 9 hole exec course near me with the final hole being a 275y par 4. It's a dogleg left over a wide creek, basically setting up for any decent golfer to be a short-mid iron lay-up and then a wedge over the creek. There are fairway bunkers on the right side and everything in the fairway feeds towards the creek, and only a small sliver of land between the bunkers and the creek if you want a short shot over it into the green. 

 

Given that my miss is a draw, I usually play directly out at the fairway bunkers WELL right of the fairway with a club that won't reach the bunkers (sometimes as short as 9i depending on the tee location), leaving typically PW/GW full swing over the creek. If I turn it left a bit, then I'm hitting 52/56* wedge over the creek, but should be safe from getting wet off the tee. 

 

However, like most 9 hole exec courses, it's populated by complete golf newbies, children, etc. Some of which simply can't get the ball in the air sufficiently to clear the creek no matter how many chances they get. So they put a drop zone on the other side right next to the green rather than expect 8 year olds to constantly pump ball after ball into the creek. The drop zone's intent, of course, is for players who have advanced through the fairway and THEN put it into the creek. 

 

I would never actually do this, but I've always wondered the same thing about whether putting my tee shot into the creek entails me to use the drop zone on the other side. If so, the optimal play would be to be as aggressive as I want with the tee ball knowing that putting the ball in the penalty area makes it hard to get worse than bogey and a decent chance at up and down for par, and given that I'm a bogey golfer anyway, it might be the statistically best choice. 

 

 

First, the local rule will identify how the dropping zone operates. If you can't find it, talk to the pro.

Second, I don't see how intentionally incurring penalties will ever be optimal for a bogey (or better) golfer.

[betarhoalphadelta]

11 minutes ago, antip said:

First, the local rule will identify how the dropping zone operates. If you can't find it, talk to the pro.

Second, I don't see how intentionally incurring penalties will ever be optimal for a bogey (or better) golfer.

 

Thanks. In reality, I don't care either way. That course is basically used for short game practice, so I don't have any interest in digging too deeply into it. I posted more in the sense that I knew of a hole with a similar scenario to OP and it always made me wonder. 

 

Pretty sure if I asked the pro, I'd get a certain response:

 

 

And no, I wouldn't deliberately incur a penalty, if for no other reason than it's a waste of a good golf ball. Wouldn't even sacrifice a Kirkland for that. 

Edited October 22, 2022 by betarhoalphadelta
add a meme

[Mudguard]

We had a similar issue for a creek that ran the length of the hole and crossed in front of the green. There was a drop zone short of where it crossed in front (the creek gets much wider in front of the green) the result was long hitters would have a go at the green, come up short, drop a ball in the drop zone, flick a wedge on and carry on.

In realty their ball crossed the penalty area miles away from the drop zone.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Mudguard

[Colin L]

I'm not sure I'm picturing this right.  What need was there for a dropping zone?

It  sounds a good case for marking the creek red along the side of the hole and then yellow where it crossed in front of the green but why a DZ?

[Mudguard]

1 hour ago, Colin L said:

I'm not sure I'm picturing this right.  What need was there for a dropping zone?

It  sounds a good case for marking the creek red along the side of the hole and then yellow where it crossed in front of the green but why a DZ?

It is a bit of a design flaw. The green and fairway are elevated and slower swing players weren't able to actually play the last portion as it required about a 100m shot over a gully (creek is at the bottom). There were some players who were putting their second shots to get them as close to the end of the fairway as possible, then pulling out a fairway wood and hoping for the best. They put a drop zone in the gully just short of the creek (and mowed it) to give them a chance of getting over. Again, not really an issue for those whom 100m is just a wedge but it's an extremely penal hole for slower swingers.

 

 

[Colin L]

Thanks for the photo which shows what  I suspect is a rather fine golf hole.  But the problem for the shorter hitter does seem clear.  You can reach the end of the fairway  - and if "laying up" with a putter is what you have to do, that's manageable.  I guess the terrain prevents laying up in the gully just short of the creek and so everyone is faced with at minimum a 100m shot to the green?  And there are players perhaps in early days, perhaps in later days who struggle with that.  I wouldn't call that a design flaw, by the way.  Some holes, some courses are just too difficult for some players.  The range of ability in golf i too great to cater for everyone at the same time.

 

What still puzzles me, though, is that a DZ doesn't provide any help in clearing the gully until you've had a go at doing so. You still have to try to clear the gully, not make it, probably losing a ball in the process before the DZ, as an additional relief option from the  penalty area is available.  That's to say, if the DZ is a legitimate one.

 

 It makes me wonder if in fact the DZ is an alternative to playing to the green from the end of the fairway, in effect a mahoosive preferred lie option?  If you can't carry the gully, you may pick up, go forward and play your next shot from the DZ?  My mind is boggling a bit there just with the unusualness of the thought.  Maybe I'm misunderstanding the set-up. 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Colin L

[Newby]

9 hours ago, Mudguard said:

It is a bit of a design flaw. The green and fairway are elevated and slower swing players weren't able to actually play the last portion as it required about a 100m shot over a gully (creek is at the bottom). There were some players who were putting their second shots to get them as close to the end of the fairway as possible, then pulling out a fairway wood and hoping for the best. They put a drop zone in the gully just short of the creek (and mowed it) to give them a chance of getting over. Again, not really an issue for those whom 100m is just a wedge but it's an extremely penal hole for slower swingers.

 

 

1) Is the angle in the blue line on the fairway or is that grey area water?

2) How far is it from the DZ to the green?

[Mudguard]

11 hours ago, Newby said:

1) Is the angle in the blue line on the fairway or is that grey area water?

2) How far is it from the DZ to the green?

The blue line is the usual line down the fairway. DZ just be about 50-60m away. The DZ is actually on a green sized bit of fairway created below the main fairway, short of the creek. It's now a par three for women. They tee it up from the end of the main fairway. What makes it more tricky and hard to show from above is that green drops off on three sides so you really need to hit the green or a bunker.

[Colin L]

This green sized area that has been cleared would work as a place to lay up, would it not?

[Mudguard]

1 hour ago, Colin L said:

This green sized area that has been cleared would work as a place to lay up, would it not?

Nah, it's a mown slope. You get the odd tee shot accidentally finishes on it, ie runs through the fairway and the long rough and somehow stops. I should find a video. 

[vandyfan]

Caledonia Fish and Golf Club has this situation on the 18th hole, see below:

 

 

Basically the drop zone is on the other side of the hazard right next to the green. On the local rule it says "ball drop for the approach shot is next to the green." So is that specifying that you can only use the drop zone if you hit into the hazard with your approach shot? Or can you just smoke driver as hard as you want into the water and then drop next to the green [i.e. Hit tee shot into water, take 1 stroke penalty, drop next to green and try to get up and down for par? Personally, this golf course is so hard I wouldn't mind getting a nice rule in my favor at the end of this round. 

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, vandyfan said:

Caledonia Fish and Golf Club has this situation on the 18th hole, see below:

 

 

Basically the drop zone is on the other side of the hazard right next to the green. On the local rule it says "ball drop for the approach shot is next to the green." So is that specifying that you can only use the drop zone if you hit into the hazard with your approach shot? Or can you just smoke driver as hard as you want into the water and then drop next to the green [i.e. Hit tee shot into water, take 1 stroke penalty, drop next to green and try to get up and down for par? Personally, this golf course is so hard I wouldn't mind getting a nice rule in my favor at the end of this round. 

Obviously, in order to get the real answer, you will need to ask the Committee that implemented that local Rule.

[North Butte]

RE: Caledonia

 

I can't imagine a Local Rule getting so detailed. Does "approach" mean your second shot? Or is it anything except your tee shot? What if you've already lost two balls off the tee then hit the third one into the water, do you get to use the drop area then?

 

I'd take the Local Rule at face value. If you hit a shot in the water, take your penalty and drop in the drop zone. End of.

[Augster]

2 hours ago, vandyfan said:

Caledonia Fish and Golf Club has this situation on the 18th hole, see below:

 

 

Basically the drop zone is on the other side of the hazard right next to the green. On the local rule it says "ball drop for the approach shot is next to the green." So is that specifying that you can only use the drop zone if you hit into the hazard with your approach shot? Or can you just smoke driver as hard as you want into the water and then drop next to the green [i.e. Hit tee shot into water, take 1 stroke penalty, drop next to green and try to get up and down for par? Personally, this golf course is so hard I wouldn't mind getting a nice rule in my favor at the end of this round. 

I would argue that they used the term “approach shot” to define, wait for it, your approach shot. 
 

Can you drive the green? If so, that’s the approach shot. If you can’t drive the green, your approach shot is the shot you try to approach the green. Whether that is the 2nd, 3rd, or 10th shot on the hole. 
 

It’s a game of honor. 

[Colin L]

 A slightly different aspect comes to mind.  How much time is taken up getting round the lake to get to the green?  Or was the ferryman off on his lunch break when the photo was taken?

[sui generis]

6 minutes ago, Colin L said:

 A slightly different aspect comes to mind.  How much time is taken up getting round the lake to get to the green?  Or was the ferryman off on his lunch break when the photo was taken?

 

Next to no one walks. For much of the year it's 90* with a dew point of 75*: the rest of the time it's 95*+. 😉

[BIG STU]

On 10/21/2022 at 5:18 PM, antip said:

On some courses I'm familiar with (including one I wrote the local rules for), the drop zone on the green side of a red penalty area is only available for a ball that last crossed the edge of the PA on the green side. 

The Committee is free to define this relief option how they want - the player needs to read the local rule carefully.

Correct-- As in like someone else said DJ. Most of the courses here are Tourist geared so most drop zones are on the green side of the hazard to speed up play for the lesser skilled Amateur tourist players. Now when we had some mini tour events here we always had a rules provision sheet with our "Conditions Of Competition" on it set by our "comittee" And at the players meeting our director would always verbally point out changes for us local guys. Good example is my home course. Our 11th hole is a sorta short Par 3 over water. In regular play the drop zone is greenside over the green in our comps it was tee side about 100 yards out from the green. But as you said the options are there as to whether the ball initally crossed the now penality area or not. As you said it pays to be attentive to the rules at hand

[Newby]

6 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

Next to no one walks. For much of the year it's 90* with a dew point of 75*: the rest of the time it's 95*+. 😉

I would guess the green was originally put there because it is very close to the clubhouse

[North Butte]

47 minutes ago, Newby said:

I would guess the green was originally put there because it is very close to the clubhouse

If we're talking about Caledonia, the clubhouse porch closely overlooking the 18th green is a feature of the course almost everyone mentions when talking about having visited there. Sitting in a rocking chair, having a cold beverage or three and watching foursome after foursome of duffers try (and often fail) to hit their last shot of the day over that dinky little pond is a popular spectator sport. 

[Newby]

6 hours ago, North Butte said:

 Sitting in a rocking chair, having a cold beverage or three and watching foursome after foursome of duffers try (and often fail) to hit their last shot of the day over that dinky little pond is a popular spectator sport. 

That's my kind of golf these days.

[vandyfan]

9 hours ago, North Butte said:

If we're talking about Caledonia, the clubhouse porch closely overlooking the 18th green is a feature of the course almost everyone mentions when talking about having visited there. Sitting in a rocking chair, having a cold beverage

....talking about all the well hit drives that ended up being blocked out by a tree. Caledonia is beautiful but it is quietly very demanding off the tee (in my opinion). I found True Blue to be "more fun" and "playable" but much less beautiful. 

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, vandyfan said:

....talking about all the well hit drives that ended up being blocked out by a tree. Caledonia is beautiful but it is quietly very demanding off the tee (in my opinion). I found True Blue to be "more fun" and "playable" but much less beautiful. 

I've taken a tour courtesy of its website.  It looks stunning.

[North Butte]

My first visit there, I played True Blue one day and Caledonia the next. I think shot for shot, tee to green True Blue is the better designed course and probably more fun IMHO to actually play shots on. Brilliant use of angles and such, interesting framing of tee shots to make them look more intimidating than they are. Lots of Mike Strantz goodness baked in.

 

But the second visit a few years later, I only had time to play one of the two and it was Caledonia. The "walk in the park" element is off the charts there and the actual golf shots to be played are pretty darned good as well (aside form a couple overly congested feeling holes). 

[North Texas]

On 10/24/2022 at 4:44 PM, vandyfan said:

Caledonia Fish and Golf Club has this situation on the 18th hole, see below:

 

 

Basically the drop zone is on the other side of the hazard right next to the green. On the local rule it says "ball drop for the approach shot is next to the green." So is that specifying that you can only use the drop zone if you hit into the hazard with your approach shot? Or can you just smoke driver as hard as you want into the water and then drop next to the green [i.e. Hit tee shot into water, take 1 stroke penalty, drop next to green and try to get up and down for par? Personally, this golf course is so hard I wouldn't mind getting a nice rule in my favor at the end of this round. 

 

Thanks. This is exactly what I was talking about in my original post.