Role of bench press/rows fitness in golf

[metaldog]

I came across a martin borgmeier fitness video and he mentioned about chest press ranking lowest for him for long drive, and it made me wonder since the club stays in front of you basically the whole time, can I just skip bench presses and rows? And do like flys, reverse flys, cable/lat pull-downs and dumbbell front raises/overhead presses? 
 

was wondering if anyone had thought about this in terms of optimizing time in gym for golf, I could maybe see some stabilization benefits from benches/rows, but every other exercise in terms of the upper body seems more useful for the golf swing?

 

thanks for any input!

[Elkhair]

I think the lower body is more important for speed than the upper body. 

[riddyl]

No-one really knows the definitive answer to this. If you don't like bench/rows, then even if you program them you probably won't do them. 

 

Bench/Rows are great exercises for beginner lifters. If this applies to you, I'd suggest doing them for all round strength. 

[Sean124]

Even if the “pushing” muscles are less important for swinging a club, you still want to develop them equally to the “pulling” muscles to avoid instability and injury. 
 

My opinion: the king of all exercises for both golf and life is the good old barbell deadlift.

[baudi]

Try Romanian deadlift instead. Very effective.

[KD1]

Probably because I'm doing things wrong... but in regard to the golf swing my intuition tells me I need to focus on core and forearms. Compound lifts like rows would benefit the core. I came to this forearm conclusion recently when I realized how much NTC was fatiguing my hands, and after hearing Dr Kwon explain to an older female student why she needed to choke down on her driver... I've never noticed my pecs having been fatigued after a round.

 

We just made a lot of progress in our home gym last weekend, I plan on to get back into a general barbell program like starting strength or similar.

Edited March 15, 2023 by KD1

[RobertBaron]

I'd say rows are pretty beneficial to the swing, especially bent over rows as they somewhat mimic the golf posture and build the strength necessary to pull against the momentum of the club on the downswing.

 

Bench press by itself probably isn't all that beneficial to the swing but if you're doing rows and building up strength and muscle in your back, then bench pressing is important to maintain a counter balance in muscle structure and everyday posture. Overdeveloping chest or back to the detriment of the other will pull your body in the direction of the imbalance.

[SirFuego]

There are no absolutes when it comes to training and it is different for everyone.

 

Par4Success has found that increasing the distance one can do a seated chest throw with a medicine ball generally corresponded to an increase in clubhead speed.  So there is some evidence that a horizontal press is beneficial to swing speed.

 

When it comes to generating speed, it's often said that you need to have a base-level of strength in order to increase speed.  In other words, if you want to get faster, you generally need to get stronger.

 

That said, you only need to be "strong enough" to safely generate clubhead speed.  Someone with a "weak" (relatively speaking) horizontal press could potentially benefit greatly from getting a stronger horizontal press.  On the other hand, it's possible that someone like Martin Borgmeier already is "strong enough" with respect to horizontal pushing, so any strength increases in that movement don't help his speed.

 

I have been careful to use the term "horizontal press", because that's a general class of movements, which includes the bench press.  You can certainly train a horizontal press in other ways (think a standing one-arm cable press) and arguably get similar results.  Jason Glass, for example, has been outspoken about the bench press being overrated, but he still thinks horizontal pressing is important -- he just thinks there are better ways to train that movement other than bench press.

 

Just keep in mind that bench press isn't just a chest exercise -- it also works the triceps.  The triceps are a primary muscle used to straighten your arm -- which is exactly what your trail arm does in the downswing.  Does this mean you can just get away with tricep exercises?  I have no idea.  But you also need to incorporate some explosiveness into your training and the bench press will generally be more explosive than isolation exercises.

 

With respect to rows, TPI has found that scapular stability is extremely important to a golf swing.  Rows are a great way to work on that.  Additionally, when you think a rotational motion, one side "pushes", while the other side "pulls".  Your trail side "pushes", while your lead side "pulls".  That "pull" is largely driven by your lats -- a muscle worked with rowing.

[Albatross Dreamer]

I've trained people & athletes for 15+ years. Once you're above beginner strength, little to none. In fact in might hurt if you add pectoral mass that gets in the way of your lead arm being able to come across your chest. Now you can alter sets and reps to affect mass gain, and some would say bench press doesn't even necessarily target the pecs directly so much as triceps, but that's a story for another day. I also wouldn't worry about negative effects if you're not going crazy with bench pressing. 

 

Doing some bench press at first to build that strength is fine. If wanting to do them long term and don't care about the barbell bench press would use dumbbells. If wanting to train the chest and shoulders with golf in mind I'd do single arm dumbbell bench press, landmine presses, push ups, overhead presses (if you have the range of motion). I actually just switch over to these that focus more on reaching vs the standard DB press for this exact reason. I could get fairly strong in them pretty quick, but with golf season coming up it's not my main priority. Perhaps in start of off season I will to build a little strength, but we'll see. 

 

Rows is a good idea though and plenty of variations. Mix that in with a bit of upper body power work and good there. I actually do use some isolation work for the upper body for more of a prehab goal.

 

Lower body would be power work, trap bar deadlifts (better than straight bar), goblet/front squats, split squats, RDLs, other hamstring work along with core. Too much to put into one post, and of course make sure you're cleared for all these activities and are doing them with the correct form.

Edited March 16, 2023 by Albatross Dreamer

[FormerBigDaddy]

I train pretty hard in the gym 5 days a week.  My first priority is getting a good total body workout for my overall health and maintain strength as I age.  I focus very hard on getting a good stretch at the bottom of all my lifts to also maintain range of motion and flexibility.  From there I also have incorporated some golf specific moves.  Variations of cable rotations, anti-rotational cable variations, and trunk rotations (machine).  I think I cover everything else really well in my total body program.  Tons of pushes and pulls.  I don't know how much that helps my golf swing but It's important to me outside of golf.  I think there's a lot of long drive guys that would make some strong cases for heavy lifting...

[Barfolomew]

I like to do that are golf stuff are: rear delts, forearms, squats, twisting chucking ball at wall for core, triceps (right arm extends in same motion on down swing)

 

Also just grabbing the cable and doing a weighted golf swing

[pdxhak]

If you have a weak chest then it is likely other muscle groups are lagging as well. Like triceps and delts so bench press could help. If you have a weak core or leg muscles then it would be beneficial to work those areas as well. Some of the best ways to increase speed and power is focusing on exercises that generate power from the ground. Like cleans, deadlifts, squats (front and back), jumping, etc. 

[pdxhak]

20 hours ago, Albatross Dreamer said:

some would say bench press doesn't even necessarily target the pecs directly so much as triceps, but that's a story for another day.

 

 

Bench press definitely works the chest muscles. It also works other areas but it definitely works the chest. If someone has poor form then that is another issue. 

[Albatross Dreamer]

1 hour ago, pdxhak said:

 

Bench press definitely works the chest muscles. It also works other areas but it definitely works the chest. If someone has poor form then that is another issue. 

Yes and no. In this case I'm also referring specifically to a barbell. For many people it doesn't train the chest muscles as much as they think. Many bodybuilders prefer other exercises for this reason, in addition to injury risks. But much of it depends on a persons levers and other factors.

[FormerBigDaddy]

12 hours ago, Albatross Dreamer said:

Yes and no. In this case I'm also referring specifically to a barbell. For many people it doesn't train the chest muscles as much as they think. Many bodybuilders prefer other exercises for this reason, in addition to injury risks. But much of it depends on a persons levers and other factors.

You know you're on a golf forum when someone wants to make a case that pectorals are not the primary mover in the bench press.  The pecs are activated at the beginning of the push and the triceps are a secondary mover toward the end of the push and it doesn't matter if its a bar or dumbbells.  That's why you see some bodybuilders doing "half reps" and not locking out at the top.  They are trying to focus only on the contraction of the pecs and not activate the triceps.  The lats, rear delts, and a tiny bit of biceps get involved in the negative (decent) portion of the rep as the antagonist.  With that said, there is a huge difference between a powerlifter and a bodybuilder.  A bodybuilder is going to be using dumbbells more often for their pushes with higher reps and less weight focusing more on the stretch, contraction, and pump.  Think more like 4x8-12.  Powerlifters are going to use bars more and focus on super heavy weight and explosion.  5-6 sets of 3-5 rep ranges. Long story short, the pectoralis major and minor are always activated in all pushing movements.  The flatter the angle the more it's activated.  Yes you can isolate the pecs in other exercises as well but you can do that with different techniques in the bench press as well.  A well rounded chest program should include 3 pushes (incline, flat, and decline) as well as 2-3 fly movements hitting all the same angles.  I throw in close grip as well on my tricep days for a little more chest.  I prefer to split up my chest exercises over 3 days as a part of my total body routine.

 

 

Edited March 17, 2023 by FormerBigDaddy

[GoGoErky]

23 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Powerlifters are going to use bars more and focus on super heavy weight and explosion.  5-6 sets of 3-5 rep ranges.

Yes and no. It’s all dependent on where they are in the training. In the off-season they are going to be hitting higher reps, maybe not 12 but it will be more in the 8-10 range for a few sets. The smart ones also do more db work to not be under the bar all the time.

 

the difference between powerlfiters and bodybuilders is that 99% of the time powerlifter is going to lockout each rep

[Albatross Dreamer]

1 hour ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

You know you're on a golf forum when someone wants to make a case that pectorals are not the primary mover in the bench press.  The pecs are activated at the beginning of the push and the triceps are a secondary mover toward the end of the push and it doesn't matter if its a bar or dumbbells.  That's why you see some bodybuilders doing "half reps" and not locking out at the top.  They are trying to focus only on the contraction of the pecs and not activate the triceps.  The lats, rear delts, and a tiny bit of biceps get involved in the negative (decent) portion of the rep as the antagonist.  With that said, there is a huge difference between a powerlifter and a bodybuilder.  A bodybuilder is going to be using dumbbells more often for their pushes with higher reps and less weight focusing more on the stretch, contraction, and pump.  Think more like 4x8-12.  Powerlifters are going to use bars more and focus on super heavy weight and explosion.  5-6 sets of 3-5 rep ranges. Long story short, the pectoralis major and minor are always activated in all pushing movements.  The flatter the angle the more it's activated.  Yes you can isolate the pecs in other exercises as well but you can do that with different techniques in the bench press as well.  A well rounded chest program should include 3 pushes (incline, flat, and decline) as well as 2-3 fly movements hitting all the same angles.  I throw in close grip as well on my tricep days for a little more chest.  I prefer to split up my chest exercises over 3 days as a part of my total body routine.

 

 

You're right, I'll just forget all my previous experience. I wasn't saying the pecs aren't involved, but that other muscle groups are more involved then people think meaning the pecs don't play as primary a role as people think. I'm aware powerlifters and bodybuilders train different, which affects muscle gain to some degree. As well as grip position affected muscle recruitment and so on. If you do have experience with this (which it sounds like you might) then you should have known what I was saying. DBs vs BBs absolutely matters as well. For the purposes of the golf forum I don't think any golfer or athlete is going to do a "well rounded chest program" for their sport specifically unless they're wanting to get bigger pecs, which I have no problem with if that's something they enjoy. Thanks for the condescension and lecture though, happy Friday!

Edited March 17, 2023 by Albatross Dreamer

[FormerBigDaddy]

delete

Edited March 17, 2023 by FormerBigDaddy

[FormerBigDaddy]

48 minutes ago, Albatross Dreamer said:

that other muscle groups are more involved then people think meaning the pecs don't play as primary a role as people think.

Again, the pecs are absolutely the primary muscles activated to get the weight off your chest.  Regardless of whether its a bar or dumbbells.  It's quite literally factual information.

[pdxhak]

51 minutes ago, Albatross Dreamer said:

You're right, I'll just forget all my previous experience. I wasn't saying the pecs aren't involved, but that other muscle groups are more involved then people think meaning the pecs don't play as primary a role as people think. I'm aware powerlifters and bodybuilders train different, which affects muscle gain to some degree. As well as grip position affected muscle recruitment and so on. If you do have experience with this (which it sounds like you might) then you should have known what I was saying. DBs vs BBs absolutely matters as well. For the purposes of the golf forum I don't think any golfer or athlete is going to do a "well rounded chest program" for their sport specifically unless they're wanting to get bigger pecs, which I have no problem with if that's something they enjoy. Thanks for the condescension and lecture though, happy Friday!

 

Bodybuilders primary goal is hypertrophy and symmetry and not strength. Powerlifters are the exact opposite. Just because bodybuilders use other movements does not mean it is ideal for strength. We can get into all the different grip positions and angles that target specific areas but that gets away from the point that the bench press primary muscle group is the chest. Triceps, front delts, back and core come into play but they are not the primary movers. 

[Albatross Dreamer]

17 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Again, the pecs are absolutely the primary muscles activated to get the weight off your chest.  Regardless of whether its a bar or dumbbells.  It's quite literally factual information.

I think we're like trains passing in the night. My point wasn't the pecs aren't involved. I'm saying that it's not like a bicep curl is for biceps. According to some of the research out there the anterior delts are recruited to nearly the same percentage as the pecs, and the triceps do play a large secondary role (with it getting larger as the grip gets narrower). I left out some of the nuance since it's a golf forum, not a lifting one so perhaps that's adding to the confusion. Which is my bad. Personally I've seen evidence DBs help recruit the pecs better since you can control the position of the weight better vs a barbell being fixed. On some level that's an individual thing though.

 

I'm happy to have a real discussion about it or talk about where we disagree, but I don't really need to waste my time with the extracurricular comments part of it. Nor do I want to waste yours.

Edited March 17, 2023 by Albatross Dreamer

[Albatross Dreamer]

4 minutes ago, pdxhak said:

 

Bodybuilders primary goal is hypertrophy and symmetry and not strength. Powerlifters are the exact opposite. Just because bodybuilders use other movements does not mean it is ideal for strength. We can get into all the different grip positions and angles that target specific areas but that gets away from the point that the bench press primary muscle group is the chest. Triceps, front delts, back and core come into play but they are not the primary movers. 

Yes I know, I've trained with both. See my above post for adding more context. Front delts are actually pretty close to chest according to some of the research. I think I just didn't explain my position/statements as well as I could have. 

[MattM97]

It works the major muscle groups in the upper body and build stability. You don't have to barbell bench you can do more variation with dumbbell bench using various grips, positions, bench angle etc. Rows I may avoid as people often do them wrong and leads to possible injury on impingement in the shoulders, a simple cable row or pull down is plenty. 

 

Also doing these helps to keep the body in balance, you don't have to be benching 315lbs or doing dumbbell presses with 100lb dumbbells to be strong. 

[joostin]

Generally it's always good to get stronger as long as you're keeping up with mobility and swinging.  No lift is really necessary for golf, and they don't have to resemble motions in the swing because the intent can just be getting stronger with the whole body.  Plenty of benchers and plenty of non-benchers - just have to find what works for you and what you enjoy.

 

I agree with @SirFuego about incorporating explosiveness generally, and bench can certainly be part of that if you like.  Fast twitch muscle is best worked with speed and with overload, and bench variations (done safely) can accomplish that for chest and tris pretty easily.  But of course you can do other things like pushups, dips, flys... if you don't want to bench.

 

The main function of the pec is adduction - bringing the upper arm towards the midline front the body.  In the golf swing there's not a whole lot of that going on, so we'll never fatigue the pecs (maybe one arm golfers will get a little more :).  However there is pulling involved (linking my centripetal thread).  So back training and grip training play a more direct role for the swing.... on top of lower body and core of course as everyone says.  I do like rows, deads, and any kind of pulling exercises as you're working back along with grip strength.

 

As far as bench and pecs, @Albatross Dreamer is right that the front anterior delts can take over too much sometimes.  Depending on technique, pressing angles, and a lack of intent (like keeping tension on the pecs), the upper arms might not be moving with much adduction.  Jeff C. talks about it here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHsUIZiNdeY

 

[aggiegolfer21]

It depends on your swing mechanics.  If the trail elbow folds behind you, bench press will be beneficial.  If you keep your trail elbow in front of you, flys will probably be better.  I would say anything that hits the lats, rear delts, and lower traps is going to be a good exercise for golf.

[FormerBigDaddy]

38 minutes ago, aggiegolfer21 said:

It depends on your swing mechanics.  If the trail elbow folds behind you, bench press will be beneficial.  If you keep your trail elbow in front of you, flys will probably be better.  I would say anything that hits the lats, rear delts, and lower traps is going to be a good exercise for golf.

Do both…. no need to split hairs here. All golfers can benefit from a well rounded strength training routine. Especially as we age. Do 6 or so exercises for each muscle group and split them up as you wish as long as you have proper recovery. 24 total lifts plus maybe a few golf/core specific moves. Chest, back, shoulders, and legs. There’s plenty of room for chest variations of pushes and flys to do both and training the entire body equally is very important. 
 

Not saying we all have to go super heavy and go crazy but we all need to maintain muscle as we age and lifting is the best way to do so. If we want to hit the ball further, or at least maintain what we have as we age, lifting is an essential part. But it is only a part… I’ve been lifting for years, but I’ve gained about 20 yards off the tee so far this off season. I did incorporate some rotational movements to my routine but the length added is mostly attributed to speed training. 
 

Strength training, mobility, and speed training is where it’s at. Do all 3 and you can maximize your potential on the course. I have no plans of ever stopped all 3. Although there will always obviously be an off-season program and in season maintenance program. 

Edited March 18, 2023 by FormerBigDaddy

[Albatross Dreamer]

17 hours ago, joostin said:

Generally it's always good to get stronger as long as you're keeping up with mobility and swinging.  No lift is really necessary for golf, and they don't have to resemble motions in the swing because the intent can just be getting stronger with the whole body.  Plenty of benchers and plenty of non-benchers - just have to find what works for you and what you enjoy.

 

I agree with @SirFuego about incorporating explosiveness generally, and bench can certainly be part of that if you like.  Fast twitch muscle is best worked with speed and with overload, and bench variations (done safely) can accomplish that for chest and tris pretty easily.  But of course you can do other things like pushups, dips, flys... if you don't want to bench.

 

The main function of the pec is adduction - bringing the upper arm towards the midline front the body.  In the golf swing there's not a whole lot of that going on, so we'll never fatigue the pecs (maybe one arm golfers will get a little more :).  However there is pulling involved (linking my centripetal thread).  So back training and grip training play a more direct role for the swing.... on top of lower body and core of course as everyone says.  I do like rows, deads, and any kind of pulling exercises as you're working back along with grip strength.

 

As far as bench and pecs, @Albatross Dreamer is right that the front anterior delts can take over too much sometimes.  Depending on technique, pressing angles, and a lack of intent (like keeping tension on the pecs), the upper arms might not be moving with much adduction.  Jeff C. talks about it here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHsUIZiNdeY

 

Right on, agree with all of this.

 

For me personally I tend to opt for exercises other than barbell bench presses first. Dumbbells do allow for more options too due to both hands not being fixed like on a barbell. This is why some people do feel it more in their chest due to the adduction if they're bringing their hands together at the top then apart at the bottom. But each person has to trial and error. Additionally, I think most people need more reaching exercises, where the shoulder blades are moving. Examples are push ups, landmine presses, overhead press variations (if one has the requisite ROM), and so on. There's many different ways to Rome though, so what works for each of us might be slightly different.

 

Speed/Power training is maybe the most forgotten component for many people. For upper body all sorts of MB variations out there that people can find. Could use plyo push ups or bench press variations too as you mentioned (although the BP option wouldn't be my first choice if letting go of the barbell for obvious reasons lol). I believe muscle mass, grip strength and leg strength are the best predictors of longevity according to the research (might be missing one thing, don't remember). And speed is obviously important for anyone hitting a golf ball, so we should all be doing it in some form or another!

Edited March 18, 2023 by Albatross Dreamer

[pdxhak]

The front delts are not taking over on a heavy bench. They may contribute more than necessary with bad form but that is another topic. The standard bench press and hand position will primarily work the chest. Changing hand positions is more about specificity. I change hand positions with weighted pushups and weighted dips to target triceps or chest. You can do the same with bench press using a barbell or a pair of dumbbells. Changing the intention of the movement and muscle group you intend to target should not be confused with the standard movement.

[ezra76]

On the green in 2 a par 5 I never reached before and got the 75lb db's for 8reps this week. Feeling strong. 😂 

 

47 in 2 weeks. Old man strength kicking in.

[Albatross Dreamer]

11 hours ago, pdxhak said:

The front delts are not taking over on a heavy bench. They may contribute more than necessary with bad form but that is another topic. The standard bench press and hand position will primarily work the chest. Changing hand positions is more about specificity. I change hand positions with weighted pushups and weighted dips to target triceps or chest. You can do the same with bench press using a barbell or a pair of dumbbells. Changing the intention of the movement and muscle group you intend to target should not be confused with the standard movement.

Let’s take a look at some of the research for fun. We’ll use PM for pecs and AD for front delts

 

McCaw & Friday looked at bench press at 60% and 80% using EMG data. In both the triceps and AD appear to have higher activation throughout most of the movement then the PM.

 

Schick et. al (PMID: 20093960) also looked at EMG data for the bench press. In experienced trainees 90% load showed PM activation was 0.99, AD 0.92.  70% load PM 0.82, AD 0.75. In inexperienced trainees the 90% showed PM 0.95, AD 1.09. 70% showed 0.78, AD 0.87. The error ratios show a big range though, meaning it’s possible that some people better recruited the PM and others the AD. Overall it appears inexperienced lifters more preferentially recruit the AD while experienced lifters recruit more PM (note- experienced in studies doesn’t always mean crazy strong). Either way it’s not a substantial difference on average.

 

Wang et al (PMID: 36148298) looked at intermuscular coupling in a variety of bench press variations. In free weight bench press, the AD appear to show significantly more activation while the triceps and PM showed similar levels of activation.

 

Rodriguez-Ridao et al (PMID: 33049982) looked at bench press at different angles. At 0° the AD and PM appear to show essentially the same level of activation, with the AD obviously going higher when the angle was increased.

 

From a biomechanical standpoint we also need to consider which muscle group is the limiter in the movement. In the bench press it’s often the AD. Meaning, the AD is going to fail first and therefore is worked “harder” as it’s going to 100% while the PM still has some in reserve. So even though the PM may be the stronger muscle, it’s the AD that’s getting maxed out. Now this can obviously change if you train certain muscles more over time, and the stronger the AD & triceps are the more you’re able to challenge the chest as well.

 

Now are there studies showing the PM plays a larger role? I’m sure there are. So when looking at the full picture there may be some dispute about exactly how much each muscle group contributes, and some of it may come down to individual variance. And of course thing change with partials and whatnot. So unless you’re a sith it’s best not to deal in absolutes.

 

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter though. You like bench press and/or find it helps your golf game/other goals? Great keep at it. Don’t like it or find it hurts progress towards your goals? No sweat there’s other options. Let’s just all celebrate spring is starting tomorrow and especially for those of us in colder climates we’re one day closer to golf season. And don’t forget tomorrow is international chest day, just like every other Monday, so be sure to hit the bench press (or whatever you like) hard! 10-4 over and out for me. 😀

Edited March 19, 2023 by Albatross Dreamer