How to practice and actually get better?

[Nels55]

Here is a video on how to practice that seems to align at least somewhat with what I recall @MonteScheinblum advising:

 

Focused practice on repeating a useful movement in this case the functional swing plane does seem like a good idea.  Whenever I do something like this I pretty much always hit the ball better afterword.  When I shot my lifetime best one under round last year I was doing a lot of this sort of practice.

[KevCannon]

Absolutely agree. Too many people think “practice” is going to a range and hitting bucket after bucket of balls. All this typically does is reinforce whatever swing flaws/bad habits already exist. There needs to be some sort of feedback, impact tape or spray to check strike location would be a great place to start for the majority. A lot of people also tend to think that they can fix a lot of flaws at once. Unfortunately it’s usually about setting small incremental goals. A lot of instructors will only have ppl do drills and practice on a correct takeaway and backswing, then once that is accomplished shift to the transition, downswing and eventually impact and follow through. It can take time to break a lifetime of incorrect movements.

[Chunkitgood]

 

The people at AMG have been known to say for example in their video on hip thrust IIRC that the way to get better is to practice correct body motion than work on the arms.

 

Most drills or things people say to practice that I see isolate a motion too far into the swing to practice usefully.  An example would be working on your release however defined before you have a good pivot however you want to define that.  Some people seem to think that doing things with the hands will conjure some corresponding proper body motion in an inexpert golfer, when physiology, neurology, physics, logic, and the entire history of people trying to learn golf suggests the opposite.  This is not to say the intent to accomplish something with the hands will not under some certain limited circumstances invoke a motion of the body.  The trouble is that limited set of circumstances is that your body already knows what to do to effectuate that intent.

 

So merely posing the club in what appears to be the proper angle, or just sticking the hands ahead to get shaft lean, will do no good, unless the pose is preceded by proper elements of the swing.

 

Most golf teaching seems to start with a swing and work backwards fixing faults, instead of teaching the proper common elements of the swing most if not all of which are in what is commonly called the pivot, and the result is…what you see on the course and at the range.  Not pretty.

 

An example that I have recently noticed (and TBH have become somewhat fixated on) is shoulder plane.  There’s some very believable data out there showing better golfer have steeper shoulder planes.  I see people all the time practicing their swing plane, release, transition, arm movements, or what have with poor shoulder angles.  The chances of ever learning to perform these “useful” motions properly from a bad body position without first addressing their shoulder planes seems to me negligible.  At best they might learn to do them incorrectly in a consistent way.  If you learn to put your shaft at the right angle with your body in the wrong position, what have you done?  
 

Is the shoulder plane of the guy in the video as steep as that it should be per the experts?

[jumboross]

For what it's worth I totally bought into the BBG video above.  So much so that I joined Brendan's Premium YouTube.  It makes a lot of sense to me.  I'm two days into the the protocols and I have two things to share:

 

1/ They are not as easy as they look

2/ I shot my best round all year after the first set.  Probably a coincidence.......

[GungHoGolf]

Look into “deliberate practice” for the scientific approach to improving any physical skill. Here’s a good overview of DP:

 

https://fs.blog/deliberate-practice-guide/

 

[ShortGolfer]

I learned "Deliberate Practice" in the Hartford Hospital rehab ward.  I ran through all the PT and OT routines the therapists had, so they got together to figure out new stuff more me to do!

It is constantly pushing yourself to do harder stuff, while having some sort of metric to see that you aren't going backwards.

 

I'm in my 3rd year of golf.  This Spring I'm working on ball first contact in my back yard, hitting little chip shots across my back yard.  I'm using real golf balls so I can hear the click when the club hits the ball. before the ground.

I also swing very slow which is harder than a normal swing.  If I miss the ball ends up in the huge compost pile or understory around my yard.

Edited June 18, 2023 by ShortGolfer

[SNIPERBBB]

On 6/13/2023 at 8:51 PM, KevCannon said:

Absolutely agree. Too many people think “practice” is going to a range and hitting bucket after bucket of balls. All this typically does is reinforce whatever swing flaws/bad habits already exist. There needs to be some sort of feedback, impact tape or spray to check strike location would be a great place to start for the majority. A lot of people also tend to think that they can fix a lot of flaws at once. Unfortunately it’s usually about setting small incremental goals. A lot of instructors will only have ppl do drills and practice on a correct takeaway and backswing, then once that is accomplished shift to the transition, downswing and eventually impact and follow through. It can take time to break a lifetime of incorrect movements.

My Jr HS choir teacher like to quote, practice doesn't make perfect, it makes permanent. Only perfect practice makes perfect permanent.

 

Baseball coach , it takes 10x repetitions to engrain a new move. Mess up and it takes 100 to fix it. 

[me05501]

If you want to score better spend 80% of your practice time within 50 yards of the green. 

 

As for the full swing we have to let go of the idea that there's an ideal swing for us that will make us hit every fairway and every green. It's better to develop a manageable swing that minimizes terrible misses and is easy to maintain. The rest is shot selection and learning to commit. 

[Nels55]

5 hours ago, jumboross said:

For what it's worth I totally bought into the BBG video above.  So much so that I joined Brendan's Premium YouTube.  It makes a lot of sense to me.  I'm two days into the the protocols and I have two things to share:

 

1/ They are not as easy as they look

2/ I shot my best round all year after the first set.  Probably a coincidence.......

It is probably not a coincidence but the true test is long term. 

 

I am sort of doing what Brendon recommends though I don't believe that there is any need to follow the protocol exactly.  He says that certain things don't work like combining the drills with overspeed training which sounds like a mental issue on his part LOL.  I play golf to have fun and I practice to have fun so I do what seems to be fun and productive which in this case seems to be a session of one functional swing plane practice swing followed by one ball swing trying to repeat the practice swing.  I differ from Brendon in that I mix in some full swings to try to get the motion into my game swing.  Doing the full swings seem to be very productive as I usually hit the ball well which does build confidence.  I do a session for as long as I feel like and I don't count the swings or time or anything like that.

 

While playing I am doing one functional swing plane practice swing and then stepping up and hitting the ball in good order so that I don't forget the practice swing.  So far so good though I am only into this a few days same as you.    

[Pepperturbo]

Didn't watch the video. 

 

I started golf at 40, late in life, self-taught using 3-books.  Over my life of different sports and activities, repetition was at the core of developing skill; it's something that fits me psyche as does setting and attaining goals.  Hence, when I took up golf, I devised repetitious stages involving mechanics, and ball striking with long, mid and short/wedges, and stuck with the program till I reached index goals.  After one year, took a basics golf class, then back to the regime, hit 8 index in under 4yrs, and 2 index at 6yr mark.

 

Anybody can play good golf, as long as you have decent judgment, patience and willingness to do what's necessary to learn and accomplish goals.

 

To this day, 3–4 days a week, I practice 48, 52, 58' wedge chips and little pitches with real balls, through the door down the low-pile carpeted hall to a Rukket net in an adjacent office door. 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Pepperturbo

[596]

A lot of his to practice will vary from person to person.  Kind of depends on your athletic background, genetics and how you learn.

 

I had no problem at age 54, when I started to golf, to hit a 2 handicap in 18 months. Even had scores in the 60s.

 

Athletic background, and excellent coordination from 22 years racing triathlons.

 

I practiced only the long game. Never practiced putting. Not much chipping because it was very easy for me.  I learned the game tee to green.

 

Now, 14 years later I practice nothing but short game. 90% is irons and hybrids to the 80 to 100 yard flags. Works wonders for the full swing. 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by 596

[iacas]

9 hours ago, me05501 said:

If you want to score better spend 80% of your practice time within 50 yards of the green.

 

If you want to make smaller but faster gains, do that.

 

If you want to truly score better, spend the majority of your time on the full swing. Shots from 75 yards and out. That's where most strokes are gained or lost.

[Dufferonius]

On 6/15/2023 at 9:53 AM, me05501 said:

If you want to score better spend 80% of your practice time within 50 yards of the green. 

In The Four Fundamentals of Golf the author asserts statistics show performance off the tee and approach shots are what most differentiates low-scoring players from high-scoring players.

 

I haven't played much at all, nor for very long, but, the refrains of "drive for show, putt for dough" and "the short game is the most critical part" always seemed flawed to me.  Sure, they're important, but, it seemed to me, you had to get there first.  You got there by having an effective long game: Drives and approach shots.

 

Now the author of that book is telling me what I've suspected all along, with statistics to prove it.

 

[ShortGolfer]

Learning approach shots can be aided by choosing the proper tees, or playing an executive golf course.

If you are too far from the green it is going to be too hard to learn proper approach shots.  You may learn bad course management strategies.

 

Hard Par 3 or Easy Par 4.  They decide it is Par 3 and it is hard for most golfers to play it as an easy par 4 so they double bogey the hole.  Or worse.

[golfarb1]

Learning new motor skills is about creating 

new neural pathways in the brain . At first these new neural pathways are weak, so numerous new, correct repetitions are required . 
But just learning new movements is not enough ; one must avoid reverting back to 

old , incorrect and strongly ingrained  neural pathways . 
Practically this means two things.

1.exaggerate the correct movements . 
As an example the Prosendr training aid  maintains right wrist extension . 

2.make slower and shorter swings .

Increase the speed and length of your swing gradually and only after you are making the correct movements . 
 

Set up a practice station with alignment rods.
Be anal about your grip and setup and stand behind the ball before each shot . 
Be deliberate . Better to take the longest time to finish a bucket of balls than the shortest time . 
 

Edited June 16, 2023 by golfarb1

[Dufferonius]

15 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

Learning new motor skills is about creating 

new neural pathways in the brain.

This ^^^^^ and everything else @golfarb1 wrote.

 

[Dan Drake]

19 hours ago, iacas said:

 

If you want to make smaller but faster gains, do that.

 

If you want to truly score better, spend the majority of your time on the full swing. Shots from 75 yards and out. That's where most strokes are gained or lost.

This x 100000000000000000000

 

Want to get better the days leading up to a tournament: Go directly to the short game/putting area

Want to get better for years to come, but recognize that it will take months of work: Go directly to the practice tee

[Pepperturbo]

21 hours ago, iacas said:

 

If you want to make smaller but faster gains, do that.

 

If you want to truly score better, spend the majority of your time on the full swing. Shots from 75 yards and out. That's where most strokes are gained or lost.

This ^ Agree 100%  I have always been a believer in spending more time on long (2-5) irons for GIR, and heavy practice of PW - LW shots to save strokes; mid (6-9) irons got the least practice.  Today, I still play courses out to 6300yds using irons only.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Pepperturbo

[me05501]

I dunno. I play with guys all the time who can manage the ball well enough from tee to green but are useless with a wedge or putter. If you can get near the green in regulation but never get up and down it’s pretty clear where the work needs to happen. 

[iacas]

13 hours ago, Dufferonius said:

In The Four Fundamentals of Golf the author asserts statistics show performance off the tee and approach shots are what most differentiates low-scoring players from high-scoring players.

13 hours ago, Dufferonius said:

Now the author of that book is telling me what I've suspected all along, with statistics to prove it.

 

Yeah, and he's only nine years behind with recycled material. 😄 We've understood this since at least Every Shot Counts and Lowest Score Wins.

[argee1977]

BBG has been a bit of a scattergun channel for the last few years, this video seems sensible enough from the little bit i watched at the start, but hip high to hip high is worth practicing, but it doesn't take into account the full swing, so those who drag the club inside, or those who have it outside in their full swing will just revert to that when going full swing, from those positions i feel it's more part of the swing you get into from the backswing and downswing, so can't really just isolate them for most golfers. I do like it for controlled distance with wedges and so on, but prefer the L to L for anything going full swing, with pause added sometimes, but again, that's personal preference.

 

Practice is good, but as an old coach used to say, practice makes permanent, so if you're not doing it right, but think you are, then that's what you take to the new swing, i prefer having someone just watch over practice, you do the same for them, seeing progress visually or from a peer is more beneficial to me than hitting 100 balls without that feedback.

Edited June 17, 2023 by argee1977

[golfarb1]

12 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Yeah, and he's only nine years behind with recycled material. 😄 We've understood this since at least Every Shot Counts and Lowest Score Wins.

Please cite one top player , who lacks a bullet proof short game . 
Obviously the best players also tend to be  very good ball strikers .

But a very good short game can make up

for some deficits in ball striking  and can put less pressure on ball striking . 
 

 

[iacas]

23 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

Please cite one top player , who lacks a bullet proof short game . 
Obviously the best players also tend to be  very good ball strikers .

But a very good short game can make up

for some deficits in ball striking  and can put less pressure on ball striking . 

 

This stuff is no longer really opinion. It's moved well into the realm of fact. The areas that separate players are the full swing. In fact, driving and approach shots (combined) account for twice the importance, on average, of the short game and putting (combined). Pros are also good at the short game and putting, but putting is not the separator it was once thought to be.

 

I'll ask you three questions (the last two are basically the same):

 

Game 1: PGA Tour Bet
You're required to place a $25,000 bet against a Tour player (maybe he give you 5:1 odds). You get to choose among three games. Which do you choose?

• A test of tee shots. You hit ten tee shots and the "best" tee shot wins a point. The first guy to get to 6 points wins the bet.
• A test of approach shots: you hit ten shots from 150 to 200 yards, and your proximity to the various holes are measured and charted. The better shot wins a point, and the guy to get to 6 points wins the bet.
• A test of short game shots: you throw your ball into an area, and the best short game shot wins the point. First to six wins the bet.
• A test of putting from 4-30 feet. This one will have lots of ties as you both two-putt a good amount, but the guy who shoots the lowest score over ten holes wins the bet.

Game 2A: PGA Tour Player Switcheroo
Imagine a game in which you pair two average PGA Tour players with two average 80s golfers.

• Team A: the pro hits every shot that requires a Full Swing Motion (roughly every shot from 65+ yards), and the 80s golfer will play every short game shot and hit every putt.
• Team B: the 80s golfer hits every Full Swing Motion shot, and the pro plays every short game shot and hits every putt.

On a typical 7000-yard golf course, what might you expect these teams to score? Which team would win?

 

Game 2B: Personal Switcheroo
Imagine a game in which you play two golf balls.

• Ball 1: You hit every full swing shot the way you normally hit them (righty if you're right-handed), and every short game shot/putt opposite handed (lefty if you're a righty).
• Ball 2: You hit every full swing shot opposite handed, and every short game shot and putt normally.

With which ball will you end up shooting the lower score?

[SNIPERBBB]

25 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

Please cite one top player , who lacks a bullet proof short game . 
Obviously the best players also tend to be  very good ball strikers .

But a very good short game can make up

for some deficits in ball striking  and can put less pressure on ball striking . 
 

 

Top Tour guys in the 60% scrambling range. Fast slopey greens puts a lot of stress on your short game. Thats why your ball striking needs to be pretty good to either get on the green or miss in the right spots. Cant be hitting the ball all over the planet and make it on tour no matter how good your short game is.

[SNIPERBBB]

take it another way, if your short game sucks that day, you might shoot a couple strokes higher than normal. You drop more shots faster when the long game goes awry.

[Nels55]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

This stuff is no longer really opinion. It's moved well into the realm of fact. The areas that separate players are the full swing. In fact, driving and approach shots (combined) account for twice the importance, on average, of the short game and putting (combined). Pros are also good at the short game and putting, but putting is not the separator it was once thought to be.

 

I'll ask you three questions (the last two are basically the same):

 

Game 1: PGA Tour Bet
You're required to place a $25,000 bet against a Tour player (maybe he give you 5:1 odds). You get to choose among three games. Which do you choose?

• A test of tee shots. You hit ten tee shots and the "best" tee shot wins a point. The first guy to get to 6 points wins the bet.
• A test of approach shots: you hit ten shots from 150 to 200 yards, and your proximity to the various holes are measured and charted. The better shot wins a point, and the guy to get to 6 points wins the bet.
• A test of short game shots: you throw your ball into an area, and the best short game shot wins the point. First to six wins the bet.
• A test of putting from 4-30 feet. This one will have lots of ties as you both two-putt a good amount, but the guy who shoots the lowest score over ten holes wins the bet.

Game 2A: PGA Tour Player Switcheroo
Imagine a game in which you pair two average PGA Tour players with two average 80s golfers.

• Team A: the pro hits every shot that requires a Full Swing Motion (roughly every shot from 65+ yards), and the 80s golfer will play every short game shot and hit every putt.
• Team B: the 80s golfer hits every Full Swing Motion shot, and the pro plays every short game shot and hits every putt.

On a typical 7000-yard golf course, what might you expect these teams to score? Which team would win?

 

Game 2B: Personal Switcheroo
Imagine a game in which you play two golf balls.

• Ball 1: You hit every full swing shot the way you normally hit them (righty if you're right-handed), and every short game shot/putt opposite handed (lefty if you're a righty).
• Ball 2: You hit every full swing shot opposite handed, and every short game shot and putt normally.

With which ball will you end up shooting the lower score?

Ha ha I like that!  I have been asked a similar question as to what kind of golf match I would play against the pro at my course and my answer is one hole on the shortest par three because I have a reasonable chance of tying and could get lucky and win.  The longer the hole or the longer we play the farther behind I am likely to get.

[Nels55]

Here is a video of the 'protocal':

 

Over the years I have tried a lot of stuff like that with not much success.  I believe that I will pass on the protocol and simply work on the functional swing plane which does seem to be a good idea for me.

[RoyalTroon]

2 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

Please cite one top player , who lacks a bullet proof short game . 
Obviously the best players also tend to be  very good ball strikers .

But a very good short game can make up

for some deficits in ball striking  and can put less pressure on ball striking . 
 

 

 

Like Jackie Burke says, he never saw a trophy and check presented out on the fairway...

Edited June 17, 2023 by BALLYBUNION

[me05501]

2 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

take it another way, if your short game sucks that day, you might shoot a couple strokes higher than normal. You drop more shots faster when the long game goes awry.

I think it’s a matter of degrees.  How bad is someone’s long game compared to his potential? How much can he reasonably expect to improve? 
 

If your long game is reasonably solid and you have a good working relationship with your own swing you can figure out how to move the ball around the golf course on any given day. You can make adjustments and play with what you’ve got even if it isn’t your best stuff. 
 

The closer you get to the hole the less margin for error. Eventually the ball needs to find the cup (assuming you follow the rules). 

****
 

I think stats derived from the professional game are often misapplied to weekend golfers.

 

A pro is either hitting fairways or missing fairways but he’s not routinely bringing penalty strokes into play off the tee. Weekend golfers do that regularly.
 

A pro is either hitting greens or missing them by a handful of yards. A weekend player’s approach shots bring in way more trouble whether through poor choices, poor execution or both. 

 

If that weekend golfer can be convinced to make better  choices from tee to green he will improve, but it’s unlikely he will ever drive the ball 300 yards with good accuracy no matter how much time he devotes to improvement. On the other hand there’s nothing stopping him from developing a pro-level short game 

[Dufferonius]

21 minutes ago, me05501 said:

I think stats derived from the professional game are often misapplied to weekend golfers.

True, but, the stats to which @iacas and I have referred include recreational golfers, collected from and by Arccos, Shot Scope, The Grint, etc.