Anyone Completely Change Their Game/Scores with Mental Work?

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Probably but I doubt they're having panic attacks on every shot either. 

 

No 😄 They are not.

 

I also don't agree with the Rotella stuff about not thinking "don't" as in "don't hit it there" and "don't even look at the water because your mind can't tell the difference between do and don't." I think that's all bogus. Your mind can know the difference, and just thinking "okay, there's water right here" doesn't make you more likely to hit it there.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Forged4ever said:

Yes, obviously BM's swing improved though the difference between most LEGIT low singles, say 3~ to scratch(0), is the mental game and course management.

 

Hard disagree there.

 

The mental side of things may have been important for you, but even on the PGA Tour level… where players are very tightly gapped… there are measurable, actual differences in their driving, approach shots, short game, and putting.

[Ghostwedge]

This might sound too simplistic but I notice when I play with high handicap players they spend a lot of time staring at the ball before they hit their shot and get mixed results. Try the opposite, take in the target, glance back at the ball and then hit your target window. Mental as I get...lol.

[Saltydawg15]

No offense but if you’re a higher handicapper you’re not play well enough to say the mental game has helped. I am a 5 handicap and still have to many mental blunders. I will however say that a couple of months ago I nearly stopped playing golf because I was not having fun. I went from a steady player that averaged around 80 to posting bigger scores with several doubles or more to back to my consistent play by lowering my expectations. For me to shoot low I need a few birdies because the mental lapse will happen but if I don’t get hose birdies I will s*** around 79-81. 
 

I still need work on getting out of my own way and not having blow up holes. 

[Forged4ever]

On 6/19/2023 at 2:29 PM, iacas said:

 

Hard disagree there.

 

The mental side of things may have been important for you, but even on the PGA Tour level… where players are very tightly gapped… there are measurable, actual differences in their driving, approach shots, short game, and putting.

I'm not referring to data, stats, yada yada yada on the practice line. 

 

I'm speaking to performing on a golf course in a competitive environment. If you walk down the line on a Thursday at a Tour event, every single guy that you see is hitting the most beautiful shots that you(or I or anyone) have ever seen. Walk over to the putting green and guys that you've never even heard of are running 6-8'ers like they're on a string.

 

Yet, come Friday evening, approximately half those same guys are slammin trunks, headin home or to the next stop for the weekend. 

 

How one day does Rickie break the US Open scoring record then three days later, he shoots 13 strokes higher and he can't get out of his own way and does what he's done in myriad Majors before????

 

Did his swing go to 💩💩 across three days?

 

Did he forget where the fairway was?

Yes, there are measurable statistics, data, etc. however if you ever speak to ANY Tour Boy, Elite Am or a Legit Plus and ask them what is going through their minds on the course, in a competitive round, not a single one is gonna state that they are thinking about their stroke gained average, how many more fairways that their Playing Partner is hitting than them, or ANY other statistic. Yes, I always used Tour stats as my target goals for my competitive practice routines(I had three types of practice routines), and I would stay out on the line, on the course or on the putting green until I hit or surpassed my practice goals. 

 

Regarding the Tour, if a Player is "on," they are visualizing and duplicating their best swing/stroke and outcome mentally, they are not thinking about swing thoughts, data, stars or numbers. If they are not, as in Rickie's case yesterday, then most of the time they are letting indecision & negative thoughts creep into their mind and instead of offensive  positive thoughts, they have defensive negative thoughts.

 

Having Played with and spoken to more Tour Boys than I could ever remember or name, and having spoken to probably 75-80% of em about the most critical factors to their performing under the gun, and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF EM, 100%, spoke of when they were "on" mentally, their PSR's(and probably half spoke of PostSR) and visualization was crystal clear, they fully 💯% expected their actual shots to mirror their visualized shots, and they knew that it was gonna be a good day. Sam stated unequivocally that the mental side is THE single most critical factor in determining a Tour Pro or Elite Amateur's success, as their swings are all World Class, and please remember that he was the man that told all the Golf Digest Teaching Pros at their annual "Teachers' Summit" that they were usin trigonometry when the golf swing was simple arithmetic, and this was in the mid-70's, not circa 2023, lolol.  If he was with his close circle, he would follow that statement up with, "what, did I forget how to swing and putt for four days every June?," referring to his mental block and inability to win a U.S. Open.

 

I think that Sam said it best when he said that the key to scoring at EVERY level is much much more than the ability to hit good shots. It is also having the skill to manage one's game and limit the frequency and severity of poor shots or judgement errors.

 

No Pro, Elite Am or Plus that I've ever met thinks about data, stats or numbers under the gun on the course 

 

Thanks much for taking the time to reply👊

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever My Friend⛳️

RP

 

 

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Forged4ever

[b.mattay]

On 6/18/2023 at 6:25 AM, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Do you have any before/after swing videos or pics? 

I don't...I try not to video my swing because every time I do I feel like garbage about 5 things I don't like haha. I also didn't take any lessons (in-person or online).

 

On 6/18/2023 at 6:34 AM, iacas said:

Highly unlikely.

I'll explain what I do different now compared to then (I did a lot of really dumb stuff). I was a 7 handicap who had good physical ability (hit it 300+, made my share of putts, was very good out of bunkers) but was incredibly double-bogey+ prone. I would get at least one score in at even par or lower every handicap cycle but went off the rails way too much.   

 

Differences (sure there are more, but "my 12 commandments" seemed right hahahah)

1.) One shot shape 95% of the time (draw with irons, straight-ish with driver)

2.) Focus on good speed on every putt (rather than trying to make everything)

3.) Use very quick/elementary Decade math on approach shots (never have subscribed, just use the basics from Youtube). 

4.) Hit a go-to teed down or Laura Davies driver if I hate the look of a tee shot.

5.) Take the longer club to front pins, shorter to back pins. 

6) Use the 5-wood chip whenever possible from tightly mown areas.

7.) Recognize when a recovery shot is nearly impossible and use an alternative option. 

8.) Recognize my tendencies out of trees (e.g. I suck at controlling direction on punch shots, so I go for wider gaps)

9.) Leverage my ability out of bunkers (last year when I was keeping stats I was 68% up and down out of bunkers). When in trouble, getting it up in a bunker rather than trying something stupid helps. 

10.) Hitting wedges controlled (I hit PW 135-140 now, compared to 155ish when I was a 7). 

11.) Taking more club into the wind and swinging easy rather than just trying to hit it lower. 

12.) Be disciplined about my alignment/grip/posture on the course and range. 

 

Ball-striking results have definitely improved, but I would argue most of that is organic from the commitment and consistency contained points 1, 3 and 12. I still have a mediocre golf swing and will likely look at lessons to squeeze out a bit more juice the next few years. 

 

@Forged4evergreat post dude! So many nuggets of truth in it IMO! 🙂

 

Add-on: the impetus for lots of this stuff came from a frank talk from a mentor who hovers between +2 and +4. I was just starting to use some of the above and was about a 4-5. After a high tournament round, he sat me down and told me "there is no F'ing reason you shouldn't be better than me. You hit it 20-30 by me and will always be one of the longest players in every field, you can roast mid/long irons into the stratosphere on par 5's and your bunker player is as good as most tour players. I can't do any of that and I shot 66 today. Let's cut out all the dumb stuff". 

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by b.mattay

[MelloYello]

1 hour ago, b.mattay said:

I don't...I try not to video my swing because every time I do I feel like garbage about 5 things I don't like haha. I also didn't take any lessons (in-person or online).

 

I'll explain what I do different now compared to then (I did a lot of really dumb stuff). I was a 7 handicap who had good physical ability (hit it 300+, made my share of putts, was very good out of bunkers) but was incredibly double-bogey+ prone. I would get at least one score in at even par or lower every handicap cycle but went off the rails way too much.   

 

Differences (sure there are more, but "my 12 commandments" seemed right hahahah)

1.) One shot shape 95% of the time (draw with irons, straight-ish with driver)

2.) Focus on good speed on every putt (rather than trying to make everything)

3.) Use very quick/elementary Decade math on approach shots (never have subscribed, just use the basics from Youtube). 

4.) Hit a go-to teed down or Laura Davies driver if I hate the look of a tee shot.

5.) Take the longer club to front pins, shorter to back pins. 

6) Use the 5-wood chip whenever possible from tightly mown areas.

7.) Recognize when a recovery shot is nearly impossible and use an alternative option. 

8.) Recognize my tendencies out of trees (e.g. I suck at controlling direction on punch shots, so I go for wider gaps)

9.) Leverage my ability out of bunkers (last year when I was keeping stats I was 68% up and down out of bunkers). When in trouble, getting it up in a bunker rather than trying something stupid helps. 

10.) Hitting wedges controlled (I hit PW 135-140 now, compared to 155ish when I was a 7). 

11.) Taking more club into the wind and swinging easy rather than just trying to hit it lower. 

12.) Be disciplined about my alignment/grip/posture on the course and range. 

 

Ball-striking results have definitely improved, but I would argue most of that is organic from the commitment and consistency contained points 1, 3 and 12. I still have a mediocre golf swing and will likely look at lessons to squeeze out a bit more juice the next few years. 

 

@Forged4evergreat post dude! So many nuggets of truth in it IMO! 🙂

 

Add-on: the impetus for lots of this stuff came from a frank talk from a mentor who hovers between +2 and +4. I was just starting to use some of the above and was about a 4-5. After a high tournament round, he sat me down and told me "there is no F'ing reason you shouldn't be better than me. You hit it 20-30 by me and will always be one of the longest players in every field, you can roast mid/long irons into the stratosphere on par 5's and your bunker player is as good as most tour players. I can't do any of that and I shot 66 today. Let's cut out all the dumb stuff". 

 

 

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeah, no offense intended here B, but it just sounds like you had incredible talent (way beyond the average Joe) and you one day decided to take it seriously. That's great,...but that ain't the norm! 

 

There are different kinds of 7 handicaps. There's the 7 who hits it great and just needs to score better and then there's the 7 who quite frankly doesn't have much more in the tank. Maybe he's older or has physical limitations. He's already optimized and that's why he's a 7 and not a 12. 

 

I think your story actually shows why it IS the physical stuff that matters.

 

I know a lot of single-digit handicaps and the only ones with the potential to be scratch or better are the ones who (like you) hit it a long way and already have a knack for key elements like chipping and putting. 

That just reinforces that the physical stuff is THE THING to focus on for the average player who's struggling despite a solid practice routine. If someone is working hard and still can't progress...they probably have larger physical issues to address. Too many people take that as a sign that it 'must be mental.'

 

Not at all. If you're working really hard and aren't gaining ground then there's almost assuredly a hole in the boat somewhere that needs to be patched up pronto!

 

Guys who are physically gifted though, those types are the exception (by definition). We all know the type--the guys who walk onto the court with height advantages, an athlete's body, a built-in rhythm and a natural aptitude for the skills required to play golf. Usually that comes from a long history playing other sports. For those guys, it's about refining what they have from day-1. For them, playing golf at a 7-index is the baseline. It's where they start.

 

But that's not the average golfer. 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited June 19, 2023 by MelloYello

[iacas]

52 minutes ago, Forged4ever said:

I'm speaking to performing on a golf course in a competitive environment. If you walk down the line on a Thursday at a Tour event, every single guy that you see is hitting the most beautiful shots that you(or I or anyone) have ever seen. Walk over to the putting green and guys that you've never even heard of are running 6-8'ers like they're on a string.

 

Yet, come Friday evening, approximately half those same guys are slammin trunks, headin home or to the next stop for the weekend.

 

Because they didn't drive it as well, or hit their approach shots as close, or putt as well. Tiger wasn't Tiger Woods because of the mental game. He was Tiger Woods because he hit the ball really well, drove it really well, etc. When Tiger was struggling… why? His mental game was likely just as good… he struggled (relatively, for him) because… he wasn't hitting it as well. His physical skills were not as good.

 

Pia and Lynn (Vision 54) spoke on a podcast one time and they talked about how they'd have a Tour player show up at their seminars or something now and then, and some of them were what they called "bogey golfers" or "beginners" from a mental game standpoint. And yet… they were a PGA Tour player.

 

The mental game's importance, in general, is over-rated. People hit a bad shot and look for a reason. They ignore the times they had a horrible "mental game" and hit a good shot.

 

52 minutes ago, Forged4ever said:

How one day does Rickie break the US Open scoring record then three days later, he shoots 13 strokes higher and he can't get out of his own way and does what he's done in myriad Majors before????

 

Because he didn't hit it as well. That makes a heck of a lot more sense than "he forgot how to have a good mental game." He's talked extensively about the work he's put into his golf swing… but you think that mentally he changed so much in a day or two? That one year he finished top three in all four majors… it's not like he doesn't know how to do it. His swing wasn't there on Sunday. You could see that he was out of it by about the third hole.

 

52 minutes ago, Forged4ever said:

Yes, there are measurable statistics, data, etc. however if you ever speak to ANY Tour Boy, Elite Am or a Legit Plus and ask them what is going through their minds on the course, in a competitive round, not a single one is gonna state that they are thinking about their stroke gained average, how many more fairways that their Playing Partner is hitting than them, or ANY other statistic.

 

That argument doesn't even make sense.

 

Why has Rory been working with the Smart Ball, and other training aids, and working on his swing? Why did he pull so many short irons at Muirfield Village? Technique. He didn't "forget" how to play high-level golf. His mental game wasn't mysteriously lacking. How about Brooks, who has won five majors: why'd he fail at the US Open? Because he wasn't hitting it as well.

 

52 minutes ago, Forged4ever said:

Regarding the Tour, if a Player is "on," they are visualizing and duplicating their best swing/stroke and outcome. If they are not, as in Rickie's case yesterday, then most of the time they are letting negative thoughts creep into their mind and instead of offensive  positive thoughts, they have defensive negative thoughts.

 

No.

 

52 minutes ago, Forged4ever said:

Sam stated unequivocally that the mental side is THE single most critical factor in determining a Tour Pro or Elite Amateur's success, as their swings are all World Class, and please remeber that he was the man that told all the Golf Digest Teaching Pros at their "Teachers' Summit" that they were usin trigonometry when the golf swing was simple arithmetic, and this was in the mid-70's, not circa 2023, lolol.

 

And Rory said something similar on Full Swing, but if you listen to an interview with Joel Dahmen, he'll tell you flat out that Rory is a better golfer than him, and it's really NOT because he's mentally better.

 

The mental game can give you an edge, for sure. But it's a small edge… There are measurable, physical ways that better golfers are better than their peers. Tiger hit it better than others when he was winning everything in sight. His mental game is the same… but the last bunch of years (save late 2018 into 2019), he's physically not been able to do what he could do before.

 

51 minutes ago, b.mattay said:

1.) One shot shape 95% of the time (draw with irons, straight-ish with driver)

2.) Focus on good speed on every putt (rather than trying to make everything)

3.) Use very quick/elementary Decade math on approach shots (never have subscribed, just use the basics from Youtube).

4.) Hit a go-to teed down or Laura Davies driver if I hate the look of a tee shot.

5.) Take the longer club to front pins, shorter to back pins. 

6) Use the 5-wood chip whenever possible from tightly mown areas.

7.) Recognize when a recovery shot is nearly impossible and use an alternative option. 

8.) Recognize my tendencies out of trees (e.g. I suck at controlling direction on punch shots, so I go for wider gaps)

9.) Leverage my ability out of bunkers (last year when I was keeping stats I was 68% up and down out of bunkers). When in trouble, getting it up in a bunker rather than trying something stupid helps. 

10.) Hitting wedges controlled (I hit PW 135-140 now, compared to 155ish when I was a 7). 

11.) Taking more club into the wind and swinging easy rather than just trying to hit it lower. 

12.) Be disciplined about my alignment/grip/posture on the course and range. 

 

I think a lot of people would classify a lot of those things as not falling under the "mental game" umbrella.

[SNIPERBBB]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

 

No 😄 They are not.

 

I also don't agree with the Rotella stuff about not thinking "don't" as in "don't hit it there" and "don't even look at the water because your mind can't tell the difference between do and don't." I think that's all bogus. Your mind can know the difference, and just thinking "okay, there's water right here" doesn't make you more likely to hit it there.

Perhaps but it's certainly not a good thought to have during your swing because it adds anxiety which most likely leads to making a poor swing. 

[MelloYello]

I'd be interested in hearing what people thought about the idea that you basically are what your early record says you are. 

 

For instance, I'm a decent golfer. Not great, but my handicap is relatively low (now) because I play a lot. I started about 13-14 years ago in college and I honestly don't recall a time I ever shot above 100. Even when I started playing the game, I could hit the ball (albeit with a slice) and I could figure out where to aim to compensate. 

 

I'm not very athletic in terms of my physical body. I'm 5'-9" and not in particularly great shape. But I had good hand-eye coordination and could switch hit from playing baseball and other sports. In short, I had a reasonable ability to move a golf club from day-1. 

 

As I recall, I was breaking 80 within a couple years of first starting at golf. I don't think it's really much of a mental thing at all. I think those of us who are lucky enough to be good generally have massive advantages that show themselves from the earliest years. Most pro's talk about getting to scratch as a young kid and how they were shooting pretty impressive scores within like 1-2 years. 

 

I think you kind of are what you are in golf. It's such a mess of physical power, balance, finesse, touch and yes, some mental stuff, too. I just don't think there's really a ton that we can do to change who we are at the core. 

[ferrispgm]

16 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Because they didn't drive it as well, or hit their approach shots as close, or putt as well. Tiger wasn't Tiger Woods because of the mental game. He was Tiger Woods because he hit the ball really well, drove it really well, etc. When Tiger was struggling… why? His mental game was likely just as good… he struggled (relatively, for him) because… he wasn't hitting it as well. His physical skills were not as good.

 

Pia and Lynn (Vision 54) spoke on a podcast one time and they talked about how they'd have a Tour player show up at their seminars or something now and then, and some of them were what they called "bogey golfers" or "beginners" from a mental game standpoint. And yet… they were a PGA Tour player.

 

The mental game's importance, in general, is over-rated. People hit a bad shot and look for a reason. They ignore the times they had a horrible "mental game" and hit a good shot.

 

 

Because he didn't hit it as well. That makes a heck of a lot more sense than "he forgot how to have a good mental game." He's talked extensively about the work he's put into his golf swing… but you think that mentally he changed so much in a day or two? That one year he finished top three in all four majors… it's not like he doesn't know how to do it. His swing wasn't there on Sunday. You could see that he was out of it by about the third hole.

 

 

That argument doesn't even make sense.

 

Why has Rory been working with the Smart Ball, and other training aids, and working on his swing? Why did he pull so many short irons at Muirfield Village? Technique. He didn't "forget" how to play high-level golf. His mental game wasn't mysteriously lacking. How about Brooks, who has won five majors: why'd he fail at the US Open? Because he wasn't hitting it as well.

 

 

No.

 

 

And Rory said something similar on Full Swing, but if you listen to an interview with Joel Dahmen, he'll tell you flat out that Rory is a better golfer than him, and it's really NOT because he's mentally better.

 

The mental game can give you an edge, for sure. But it's a small edge… There are measurable, physical ways that better golfers are better than their peers. Tiger hit it better than others when he was winning everything in sight. His mental game is the same… but the last bunch of years (save late 2018 into 2019), he's physically not been able to do what he could do before.

 

 

I think a lot of people would classify a lot of those things as not falling under the "mental game" umbrella.

I would argue that Tiger's mental game is what made  him Tiger Woods.  You don't get that many wins without a tough mental game.  You don't get that many consecutive cuts made without a tough mental game.   When you are talking about the elite of the elite, mental game is a very large component of what makes them who they are.  Confidence in their abilities is what separates the good players from the great.  Put peak Justin Rose vs peak Tiger head to head.....most would pick Tiger even though Justin Rose is one of the top ball strikers on tour.

[Forged4ever]

31 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Because they didn't drive it as well, or hit their approach shots as close, or putt as well. Tiger wasn't Tiger Woods because of the mental game. He was Tiger Woods because he hit the ball really well, drove it really well, etc. When Tiger was struggling… why? His mental game was likely just as good… he struggled (relatively, for him) because… he wasn't hitting it as well. His physical skills were not as good.

 

Pia and Lynn (Vision 54) spoke on a podcast one time and they talked about how they'd have a Tour player show up at their seminars or something now and then, and some of them were what they called "bogey golfers" or "beginners" from a mental game standpoint. And yet… they were a PGA Tour player.

 

The mental game's importance, in general, is over-rated. People hit a bad shot and look for a reason. They ignore the times they had a horrible "mental game" and hit a good shot.

 

 

Because he didn't hit it as well. That makes a heck of a lot more sense than "he forgot how to have a good mental game." He's talked extensively about the work he's put into his golf swing… but you think that mentally he changed so much in a day or two? That one year he finished top three in all four majors… it's not like he doesn't know how to do it. His swing wasn't there on Sunday. You could see that he was out of it by about the third hole.

 

 

That argument doesn't even make sense.

 

Why has Rory been working with the Smart Ball, and other training aids, and working on his swing? Why did he pull so many short irons at Muirfield Village? Technique. He didn't "forget" how to play high-level golf. His mental game wasn't mysteriously lacking. How about Brooks, who has won five majors: why'd he fail at the US Open? Because he wasn't hitting it as well.

 

 

No.

 

 

And Rory said something similar on Full Swing, but if you listen to an interview with Joel Dahmen, he'll tell you flat out that Rory is a better golfer than him, and it's really NOT because he's mentally better.

 

The mental game can give you an edge, for sure. But it's a small edge… There are measurable, physical ways that better golfers are better than their peers. Tiger hit it better than others when he was winning everything in sight. His mental game is the same… but the last bunch of years (save late 2018 into 2019), he's physically not been able to do what he could do before.

 

 

I think a lot of people would classify a lot of those things as not falling under the "mental game" umbrella.

Hey, if that's the case, and I'll let the members decide, then it's not the first time that I went off the rails nor will it be the last😂😂

 

Having been there done that, I just try to share what I've learned through my personal Playing experiences, along with having the good fortune of being able to Play with and speak to PGA Players about their games and what they consider critical to their success. It's great to share opinions and just let the members read and judge for themselves.

 

Whatever works for you is great and I wish ya the best this season👊

 

Cheers🍻

RP

[Forged4ever]

41 minutes ago, ferrispgm said:

I would argue that Tiger's mental game is what made  him Tiger Woods.  You don't get that many wins without a tough mental game.  You don't get that many consecutive cuts made without a tough mental game.   When you are talking about the elite of the elite, mental game is a very large component of what makes them who they are.  Confidence in their abilities is what separates the good players from the great.  Put peak Justin Rose vs peak Tiger head to head.....most would pick Tiger even though Justin Rose is one of the top ball strikers on tour.

EXACTLY!!!

 

That is exactly why both Ernie Els and Colin Montgomery stated publicly that they were beaten by Tiger prior to even hitting their first tee shot!! You get in a man's mind, and you OWN him, regardless of the sport or activity and I don't care WTF his stats are, lol.

 

Excellent post Brotha👊

 

Stay Well🍻

Edited June 19, 2023 by Forged4ever

[SNIPERBBB]

36 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

I'd be interested in hearing what people thought about the idea that you basically are what your early record says you are. 

 

For instance, I'm a decent golfer. Not great, but my handicap is relatively low (now) because I play a lot. I started about 13-14 years ago in college and I honestly don't recall a time I ever shot above 100. Even when I started playing the game, I could hit the ball (albeit with a slice) and I could figure out where to aim to compensate. 

 

I'm not very athletic in terms of my physical body. I'm 5'-9" and not in particularly great shape. But I had good hand-eye coordination and could switch hit from playing baseball and other sports. In short, I had a reasonable ability to move a golf club from day-1. 

 

As I recall, I was breaking 80 within a couple years of first starting at golf. I don't think it's really much of a mental thing at all. I think those of us who are lucky enough to be good generally have massive advantages that show themselves from the earliest years. Most pro's talk about getting to scratch as a young kid and how they were shooting pretty impressive scores within like 1-2 years. 

 

I think you kind of are what you are in golf. It's such a mess of physical power, balance, finesse, touch and yes, some mental stuff, too. I just don't think there's really a ton that we can do to change who we are at the core. 

I started golf rather late in life, early 20s. Years of playing baseball and slopitch softball wasn't the best for me for playing golf. I don't think you could get any flatter than I was. Speed was never the problem for me. But being so flat, consistently hitting anything was a miracle. When I started filming myself it's a wonder that I wasn't hitting the ground 2ft behind the ball. It was a truly ugly swing on video... My body was at post impact position and the club was still waist high behind me. 

[iacas]

56 minutes ago, ferrispgm said:

I would argue that Tiger's mental game is what made  him Tiger Woods.

 

And you'd lose that argument. 😄 Tiger was better in every way than a lot of players; the mental game was the smallest differentiator on that long list.

 

56 minutes ago, ferrispgm said:

You don't get that many wins without a tough mental game. You don't get that many consecutive cuts made without a tough mental game.

 

You don't get that many wins without a lot of things… most of which are physical things: ballstriking, short game, putting… etc.

 

I could sub out "tough mental game" for "great physical skills" and the sentences are still true. You're not really saying anything.

 

56 minutes ago, ferrispgm said:

When you are talking about the elite of the elite, mental game is a very large component of what makes them who they are.

 

That's just stating your opinion as if it's fact. The Pia/Lynn story above speaks against that opinion, too.

 

56 minutes ago, ferrispgm said:

Confidence in their abilities is what separates the good players from the great.

 

No, their abilities are what separate the good players from the great. The difference between Scottie Scheffler and, I dunno, Scott Piercy right now is not "confidence." It's almost entirely physical ability.

 

56 minutes ago, ferrispgm said:

Put peak Justin Rose vs peak Tiger head to head.....most would pick Tiger even though Justin Rose is one of the top ball strikers on tour.

 

Because Tiger was the best ever, not just "a top ball striker." He was the top ballstriker.

 

------

 

If fixing the mental game was the key to so many lower scores… why aren't people doing it? Why do Tour players spend so much time working on their golf swings? Their technique? Why can a PGA Tour player, nay, a PGA Tour winner show up at a Vision 54 conference and be ranked as a "beginner" with the mental game?

 

------

 

Now, I've had this conversation many, many times over the years. I'm not going to change your minds, so… I'm not really going to try. I've put enough out here now to make my position clear, and potentially to give some people a little bit to think about, and I'm content to be done.

[SNIPERBBB]

I've said this for a long time mental game is much more than just swing thoughts, emotional and course management. It's also discipline. You don't get to be a top ball striker, putting genius, bunker genius, etc by not having discipline to do the training required.  Tiger has amazing golf  school and business discipline, if he would of had some discipline regarding his romantic life and driving he might of blew Jack's major record to smitherines. 

 

Natural ability can only take you so far. 

Edited June 19, 2023 by SNIPERBBB

[ferrispgm]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

And you'd lose that argument. 😄 Tiger was better in every way than a lot of players; the mental game was the smallest differentiator on that long list.

 

 

You don't get that many wins without a lot of things… most of which are physical things: ballstriking, short game, putting… etc.

 

I could sub out "tough mental game" for "great physical skills" and the sentences are still true. You're not really saying anything.

 

 

That's just stating your opinion as if it's fact. The Pia/Lynn story above speaks against that opinion, too.

 

 

No, their abilities are what separate the good players from the great. The difference between Scottie Scheffler and, I dunno, Scott Piercy right now is not "confidence." It's almost entirely physical ability.

 

 

Because Tiger was the best ever, not just "a top ball striker." He was the top ballstriker.

 

------

 

If fixing the mental game was the key to so many lower scores… why aren't people doing it? Why do Tour players spend so much time working on their golf swings? Their technique? Why can a PGA Tour player, nay, a PGA Tour winner show up at a Vision 54 conference and be ranked as a "beginner" with the mental game?

 

------

 

Now, I've had this conversation many, many times over the years. I'm not going to change your minds, so… I'm not really going to try. I've put enough out here now to make my position clear, and potentially to give some people a little bit to think about, and I'm content to be done.

They work on their swings because you still need to be physically ready for the tournament.  I don't care how good you are, you can't play at a high level without working on your game...that goes for literally every sport. 

 

You're missing the point....all of the guys out there in the top 20 lets say...are great and very close in skill level/capable of winning any given week. They are separated by a very narrow margin.  I'm not talking about going from number 1 to number 256, of course you will have a varying degree of skills when you go down that far. 

 

I don't care how good you are....If you are playing with a 1 shot lead going into 17 or 18, you better be tough and solid mentally.  If you are down by 1 shot with 3 holes left, you need to think clearly.  If you are on the cut line going into 17, how many players bogey the last 2? How many world class players have crumbled down the stretch in a tournament or major?  Their swing is what helps make them great, but the mental game and the drive to win separates the very best.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, ferrispgm said:

I don't care how good you are....If you are playing with a 1 shot lead going into 17 or 18, you better be tough and solid mentally.  If you are down by 1 shot with 3 holes left, you need to think clearly.  If you are on the cut line going into 17, how many players bogey the last 2? How many world class players have crumbled down the stretch in a tournament or major?  Their swing is what helps make them great, but the mental game and the drive to win separates the very best.

 

And what GOT you that one-shot lead is almost entirely physical. This is like skipping to the end and saying "well, one guy birdied the last hole and the other guy two-putted, so clearly the ability to make a 15-footer is what separates the winners from everyone else." That ignores everything else they did up until that moment.

 

Like I said, I'm not going to convince you. And for some people, the mental game is a glaring weakness. But you can be a PGA Tour winner with a "beginner" mental game… it's not a big differentiator.

[SNIPERBBB]

'Anyone can be a genius once a year, true geniuses usually have their ideas closer together.'

 

 

[PracticeSwinger]

@iacas @ferrispgm @Forged4ever

 

Love those talks - and even though it looks like you're talking past each other, I don't think your arguments are that mutually exclusive. Of course, physical capacities play a large role, all these guys stripe it but still, some do it better than the others and the variability of the game/swing makes it that one day everything clicks, you're in the zone and everything drops, while the next you miss your marks and it costs you big time. Give Jon Rahm 100 rounds and he'll beat Scott Piercey most of the time. But there's also a mental toughness aspect that plays a role into affecting your physical abilities on the spot : how you handle those bad breaks, how do you stay with the guy striping it 25 yds past you, how you collect yourself to finish it up. In essence, how does that 'down time' creeps up and affect your top physical abilities on the fly. Combo of both in my opinion.

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Varry_Hardon said:

Combo of both in my opinion.

 

Nobody is saying it's 100% one thing or the other.

[Hawkeye77]

Discounting Tiger’s mental attributes, however or in what combination you want to describe them, ignores the competitive essence of the man and what allowed him to develop and refine and rebuild many times the physical. Yep, other world talent but he doesn’t win at the rate he won or how he won without the gift that was his mental approach. 
 

Jack had other worldly talent in many ways and never gets credit for being the ballstrker he was - plenty in his era tagged with being better “ballstrikers”, plus below average short game.  But the difference overall, in the moment and in the clutch? Mental focus, game, determination like no other. That allows magnificent 2 irons and 1 irons under pressure and clutch putts and so on. Watch the ‘86 Masters - mental!
 

They were ultimate competitors, yep, physically gifted, but their minds and edge made their careers. 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Hawkeye77

[MPStrat]

2 hours ago, ferrispgm said:

I would argue that Tiger's mental game is what made  him Tiger Woods.  You don't get that many wins without a tough mental game.  You don't get that many consecutive cuts made without a tough mental game.   When you are talking about the elite of the elite, mental game is a very large component of what makes them who they are.  Confidence in their abilities is what separates the good players from the great.  Put peak Justin Rose vs peak Tiger head to head.....most would pick Tiger even though Justin Rose is one of the top ball strikers on tour.

I agree with you though I understand the point being made. 
 

Because of Tigers natural talent and unmatched work ethic, he was better than everyone at pretty much everything and could execute again and again under pressure. That’s a lot more than “mental game” and it’s a lot more than “ballstriking”

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

On 6/18/2023 at 8:16 AM, b.mattay said:

Yes, I went from an 7 handicap to a +3 over 4 and half years by focusing on good mental processes and course management. Swing probably got better too but it wasn't the focus.

You should know!!!!!! Good work. 

[GolfTurkey]

Put me in the camp that mental game is over-rated and is a separator between two people of almost the same ability.

 

I think Tiger's mental game was really good obviously, he wasn't at all scared of winning, wouldn't (hardly) make mental mistakes down the stretch and he was willing to grind his tail off to make the cut during his bad weeks.

 

However, in his prime years he was there or thereabouts as the best driver of the ball, the best iron player, close to or best short game and close to or best putter. Justin Rose for example couldn't sniff the jockstrap of Tiger's all round game, as good a player as Rose was.

[b.mattay]

8 hours ago, iacas said:

 

I think a lot of people would classify a lot of those things as not falling under the "mental game" umbrella.

Totally fair. Maybe a better word is “discipline or decisions”. Not a single thing I listed is mechanically orientated though. Just all about optimizing choices or finding “better solutions”. 
 

I appreciate your view on things and think maybe the best analogy is imagining a car street race. Talent/ability is bringing a better engine/transmission/tires etc to the race. Mental game/discipline is the tuning that allows all those parts to function their best. Want to win more often? Build a better car and tune it better too. 

Edited June 20, 2023 by b.mattay

[Pretzel]

Mental game is really simple - are you so much of a toddler that you throw a temper tantrum and stop trying to play well when your round doesn’t start perfectly? Do you make stupid mistakes on the golf course because your course management skills are nonexistent? Does the pressure of playing in a tournament cause you to wet your pants or otherwise have a literal anxiety attack? If the answers to those questions are no, then congratulations - your mental game is just fine.
 

You will never think your way into hitting the ball any better than you’re physically capable of doing. Everybody gets the same physiological responses (adrenaline surge, increased heart rate, increased sweat, etc.) when under pressure in competition, no matter how confident they may feel in themselves at that moment. Even Rory, a well-seasoned Tour player by now, has shared stats about his heart rate peaks during pivotal moments in tournaments. The pro hits a good recovery from that fried egg lie not because he’s got a good mental game and thought the ball out of the bunker. He hits a good recovery from that fried egg lie because he’s hit that shot thousands of times already in the past and possesses emotional maturity beyond that of a toddler to avoid kicking his toys and going home when something unfortunate happens. 
 

What allows a player to hit a good shot despite those physiological responses to stressful scenarios is practice and training. To perform under pressure, first you have to be able to do it when you’re not under pressure and be able to do it consistently. Those bad shots on the range are easy to ignore or wave off as a fluke, except they’ll still happen just as frequently out on the course and you’ll sure notice them there. It’s not a mental error, it’s the same bad shots you hit on the range showing up with a very similar frequency when you’re out on the course. You can only ever expect to not hit a bad shot out on the course if you can consistently and regularly hit 40+ shots in a row on the driving range (with different clubs each time) and not have a single one of them be bad. 
 

The mental game is the biggest and most pervasive myth in golf, and it’s because everybody likes to think that there is something they can do (other than practicing more and practicing properly) to immediately or easily stop making bad shots. If you spent 12 months working on nothing but the “mental game” without ever touching a club you would suck at golf the next time you played, because you still can’t hit the ball with your mind. If you spent 12 months with daily  proper practice on the range and chipping/putting green without once setting foot on the course itself or doing anything about your “mental game” I guarantee you’d play much better golf at the end of the year than the start barring injury or other exceptional circumstances. 
 

There’s a reason many pros got to where they are/were by “grinding it out of the dirt” just practicing and practicing until they got to where they are now. There’s also a reason precisely zero pros got to where they are by sitting around thinking about golf and how they will avoid mental errors, or planning out course strategy without actually practicing.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Pretzel

[ezra76]

19 hours ago, Lefty_3Jack said:

Do you feel the pre-shot routine has curb negative thoughts?  How detailed is it?  I have a pre-shot routine, but as I start my swing, there can sometimes be a flood of negative thoughts like I'm attempting to sabotage myself.  I've wondered if I need to make it so detailed that I'm telling myself exactly what I'm doing at all times so "you're going to shank it" "don't miss right" "youre losing your grip at the top" version of tourettes doesn't happen as I begin the swing.  

 

When I say tell myself exactly what I'm doing I mean:

-You're going to set your clubface to the target you picked out 

-Align your feet to your clubhead 

-Take your stance 

-Look at target once 

-Waggle once 

-Look at target again

-Good tempo

-Go

 

I don't think that's what people are doing in their routines though.  I tend to do well not being target based and use one swing thought so that it can help block some of those tourette like 

I have those "almost golf" balls I use to practice the preshot in my yard. I take my old 5iron from about 30yds. back from the side of my 2 story house.

 

I basically start back to house, turn around and pick a target. Chimney, a window, propane tank, through the open basement dormer ect.. and count up. I want to start my backswing by 6 and strike the ball on 7. I do a 3/4 feel swing for path mostly. Like low draw shot into that dormer or a higher cutting shot to the bedroom window. Over the ball it's one waggle and a little front foot press and into the backswing.

 

If I have a thought it's just "start the mower" for my backswing and/or get my left shoulder turned to the ball but mostly just thinking a bout tempo and a spot 1-2" in front of the ball as well as finishing down the line to my target. Very focused on that target the whole time after I pick it. On the course (which I really need to expand on) I "make my own fairway". I start from way back on the teebox and walk up blocking out a big section of the hole mentally and focusing on my target being at the end of a narrow (10-20yd) fairway. This especially helped on holes with big trouble left or right. I'm able to choke down and hit a tight cut driver off a low tee  or pick a target a little more right and draw a 3wood on hole with trouble left, which that "trouble" is now, in my mind not even in the picture. 

[PracticeSwinger]

3 hours ago, Pretzel said:

Mental game is really simple - are you so much of a toddler that you throw a temper tantrum and stop trying to play well when your round doesn’t start perfectly? Do you make stupid mistakes on the golf course because your course management skills are nonexistent? Does the pressure of playing in a tournament cause you to wet your pants or otherwise have a literal anxiety attack? If the answers to those questions are no, then congratulations - your mental game is just fine.
 

You will never think your way into hitting the ball any better than you’re physically capable of doing. Everybody gets the same physiological responses (adrenaline surge, increased heart rate, increased sweat, etc.) when under pressure in competition, no matter how confident they may feel in themselves at that moment. Even Rory, a well-seasoned Tour player by now, has shared stats about his heart rate peaks during pivotal moments in tournaments. The pro hits a good recovery from that fried egg lie not because he’s got a good mental game and thought the ball out of the bunker. He hits a good recovery from that fried egg lie because he’s hit that shot thousands of times already in the past and possesses emotional maturity beyond that of a toddler to avoid kicking his toys and going home when something unfortunate happens. 
 

What allows a player to hit a good shot despite those physiological responses to stressful scenarios is practice and training. To perform under pressure, first you have to be able to do it when you’re not under pressure and be able to do it consistently. Those bad shots on the range are easy to ignore or wave off as a fluke, except they’ll still happen just as frequently out on the course and you’ll sure notice them there. It’s not a mental error, it’s the same bad shots you hit on the range showing up with a very similar frequency when you’re out on the course. You can only ever expect to not hit a bad shot out on the course if you can consistently and regularly hit 40+ shots in a row on the driving range (with different clubs each time) and not have a single one of them be bad. 
 

The mental game is the biggest and most pervasive myth in golf, and it’s because everybody likes to think that there is something they can do (other than practicing more and practicing properly) to immediately or easily stop making bad shots. If you spent 12 months working on nothing but the “mental game” without ever touching a club you would suck at golf the next time you played, because you still can’t hit the ball with your mind. If you spent 12 months with daily  proper practice on the range and chipping/putting green without once setting foot on the course itself or doing anything about your “mental game” I guarantee you’d play much better golf at the end of the year than the start barring injury or other exceptional circumstances. 
 

There’s a reason many pros got to where they are/were by “grinding it out of the dirt” just practicing and practicing until they got to where they are now. There’s also a reason precisely zero pros got to where they are by sitting around thinking about golf and how they will avoid mental errors, or planning out course strategy without actually practicing.

Excellent. There’s a reason one is playing and the other is the caddie, even though they both know about the course and the shot tendencies.

[MelloYello]

12 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

I've said this for a long time mental game is much more than just swing thoughts, emotional and course management. It's also discipline. You don't get to be a top ball striker, putting genius, bunker genius, etc by not having discipline to do the training required.  Tiger has amazing golf  school and business discipline, if he would of had some discipline regarding his romantic life and driving he might of blew Jack's major record to smitherines. 

 

Natural ability can only take you so far. 

 

I agree with this 100% but that's also definitely not what hobbyists are talking about when they say "mental game."

 

If you're a pro, then yes, mental game manifests in how hard you're working out or prepping on a Monday. If you're posting here, you're at work on a Monday. 🙂