The uphill putt left short

[Peter_b]

Long uphill putts , 13 feet and out, putts are often left short even by the best players specially on slow greens and I wonder why. OK grain is mostly working against the ball but there must be something else. Those short uphill putts are just too bad to be the grain. The problem starts where the small brain has difficulties to judge the necessary force. 

Downhill putts we reduce swinglength mostly but do we rush uphill putts with a swinglength that equals a level putt of the same distance trying to get more distance by swingspeed than swinglength? What is happening?

[jordan2240]

Probably mostly due to the fear of ending up with a downhill putt.

[SNIPERBBB]

Its harder to make a good stroke when you got to hit it that hard.

[bladehunter]

16 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Its harder to make a good stroke when you got to hit it that hard.

Yes. Putting is infinitely harder the slower the greens are. 

[bluedot]

The PGA Tour make percentage from 10-15’ is less than 30%. That’s Tour pros on perfect and very fast greens.  A 13’ putt is NOT a short putt, at least statistically, and running it 3 or 4 feet by and leaving a downhill comebacker is not a successful strategy. 
 

From 13’, Tour pros average about 1.8 putts to hole out, which means that while they only make about one out of 4 from 13’, they almost NEVER 3 putt from 13’; it happens 1% of the time.
 

That does NOT mean that you shouldn’t try to make a 13’ uphill putt, and certainly a Tour pro is going to look at a 13’ uphill putt as an opportunity. But it DOES mean that you aren’t going to consistently make those, and three putt avoidance is the heart and soul of good putting.  
 

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by bluedot

[phizzy30]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

Yes. Putting is infinitely harder the slower the greens are. 

And bumpy.  I hate really slow bumpy greens.  I'd rather putt on a fast pristine green where it's 12+ on the stimp meter.  We have courses here where the maintenance crew lets the grass on the greens grow long so it looks like carpet.  On top of that they are bumpy.  Most courses they won't even roll the greens.  They think that making the greens super slow will speed up play because it's easier to putt on but they got it all wrong.  I live in SoCal so we have bumpy poa ana greens on many of the courses. 

Edited July 17, 2023 by phizzy30

[Hawkeye77]

8 hours ago, Peter_b said:

Long uphill putts , 13 feet and out, putts are often left short even by the best players specially on slow greens and I wonder why. OK grain is mostly working against the ball but there must be something else. Those short uphill putts are just too bad to be the grain. The problem starts where the small brain has difficulties to judge the necessary force. 

Downhill putts we reduce swinglength mostly but do we rush uphill putts with a swinglength that equals a level putt of the same distance trying to get more distance by swingspeed than swinglength? What is happening?

 

Are you saying grain always grows in the direction of downhill? "Slow greens" is relative.  Sure, if they are used to fast and have to play something a lot slower there may be an adjustment, steady diet of slow greens and they figure out the speed, but at 13 footers, of course, they are "often" left short, that's the most common miss.  13 feet isn't short and most folks don't putt short uphill putts badly at all relative to other putts.

 

Anyway it's more about gravity, contours and the resistance of the turf and no single answer for all golfers. 

 

One of the reasons uphill putts are made more often compared to downhill of the same length as you move away is they are struck more firmly, so there you are.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[North Butte]

Thought experiment. Imagine a REALLY steep uphill putt and an equally steep downhill one. So steep that a ball marked and replaced might start rolling on its own if you don't place it carefully.

 

Which seems more likely, for that downhill putt to stop above the hole or to go past? 

 

And which seems more likely, for that uphill putt to go past the hole or to come up short.

 

It seems to me common sense that uphill and/or slow putts stop short more often than they go long. And vice versa for downhill and/or fast ones.

 

Same thought experiment for greens Stimping at 14 versus greens Stimping at 6. The fast greens are going to result in far more balls racing past the hole than stopping short. And the slow greens will see relatively few balls hit significantly past the hole. 

 

If it were otherwise, that would be surprising. The entire question is a "dog bites man" headline.

[bluedot]

29 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Are you saying grain always grows in the direction of downhill? "Slow greens" is relative.  Sure, if they are used to fast and have to play something a lot slower there may be an adjustment, steady diet of slow greens and they figure out the speed, but at 13 footers, of course, they are "often" left short, that's the most common miss.  13 feet isn't short and most folks don't putt short uphill putts badly at all relative to other putts.

 

Anyway it's more about gravity, contours and the resistance of the turf and no single answer for all golfers. 

 

One of the reasons uphill putts are made more often compared to downhill of the same length as you move away is they are struck more firmly, so there you are.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Grain is almost always going to follow the slope of the ground in a downward direction, which is the biggest reason that you’ll see greens with the grain growing in more than one direction.  An uphill but down grain putt is truly rare.

 

According to the USGA ( and any superintendent you talk to) all the stuff about grass growing toward a pond or a mountain or the west or whatever is all BS.  For the most part, there’s just gravity and nothing else.

 

All of which is another good reason not to run a 13’ uphill putt much past the hole.  The downhill comebacker, if you’re on greens where grain matters, is VERY likely to be down grain as well as downhill.  And that can get scary.

[Nard_S]

I go short because I don't "see" the speed correctly. Know it's uphill but I'm still targeting cup. But when I visually target past it to compensate, I do a lot better.

[SNIPERBBB]

15 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

I go short because I don't "see" the speed correctly. Know it's uphill but I'm still targeting cup. But when I visually target past it to compensate, I do a lot better.

 Really helps to look past the hole on slow/uphill putts and vice versa

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, bluedot said:

The PGA Tour make percentage from 10-15’ is less than 30%. That’s Tour pros on perfect and very fast greens.  A 13’ putt is NOT a short putt, at least statistically, and running it 3 or 4 feet by and leaving a downhill comebacker is not a successful strategy. 
 

From 13’, Tour pros average about 1.8 putts to hole out, which means that while they only make about one out of 4 from 13’, they almost NEVER 3 putt from 13’; it happens 1% of the time.
 

That does NOT mean that you shouldn’t try to make a 13’ uphill putt, and certainly a Tour pro is going to look at a 13’ uphill putt as an opportunity. But it DOES mean that you aren’t going to consistently make those, and three putt avoidance is the heart and soul of good putting.  
 

 

Huh.  Maybe we need to reword instruction.  And I’ll preface by saying , I realize a couple have attempted this already ( fawcett ) ….. but for some reason that thing you just said rang a bell. I went and looked at my own stats and said “ huh”.  
 

maybe we need to preach less make or no make , and more “ lag”?   Why oh why am I now hearing Scott’s voice. 🤣…. It never clicked before.  

I say that because I’ve always said I could almost never 3 putt if I just lag everything.  I’ve done that a million times protecting a score.  Just stop trying to make them.  And get the rest way around in even par.  Or if I play to make putts.  I 3 putt a lot.  
 

how would you characterize a 18 % make rate for 10-15 feet for a scratch to plus player ? 

[Nard_S]

4 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

 Really helps to look past the hole on slow/uphill putts and vice versa

Yup, slippery down hills, looking feet in front of cup too.

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

3 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Yes. Putting is infinitely harder the slower the greens are. 

Ehh.  We can have too much of a good thing, though I normally agree with you.

 

The icehouse/driving range I occasionally go to is charming and rustic, though at least you are hitting off grass.  They have a putting green in the back, which is about the thinnest, 60's-era astroturf placed over a concrete slab.  They may as well have just painted the damn thing green, for all of the drag that beat-up carpet provides.  That green is too fast.  But that's pretty rare in my experience around Houston.  As I've written before, The Woodlands CC starter was bragging about them stimping either 10 or 11, and those were great and true. This concrete slab was not.

 

I'd love to go back to Pebble and see what new me thinks of the green in front of the Lodge.  Spent a bit of time practicing on it late at night, decades ago.  Anyway, I think it's what SNIPERBBB said upthread plus not wanting to gorilla it and eat a 5' downhiller coming back.

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

21 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

...How would you characterize a 18 % make rate for 10-15 feet for a scratch to plus player ? 

A weakness in your game, given this data from Shotscope.  (https://shotscope.com/blog/stats/putting-make-percentages-by-handicap-how-do-you-compare/)

 

They break it down slightly differently---6'-12' and 12'-18'---but neither has an 18% make rate doing very well.  18% makes you either a 20 HDCP putter, or worse than that.

 

Sorry.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Jayjay_theweim_guy

[North Butte]

The app I use (Golfmetrics) says a Scratch player makes 29% from 10-12 feet, 19% from 13-17. So I'd interpolate that as about 25%-ish from 10-15 combined. 

 

So to my mind 18% isn't cover-your-eyes awful but it's well below "scratch to plus" standard. It means putting form 10-15 feet about like you'd hope to putt from 13-17'. 

[bladehunter]

6 minutes ago, North Butte said:

The app I use (Golfmetrics) says a Scratch player makes 29% from 10-12 feet, 19% from 13-17. So I'd interpolate that as about 25%-ish from 10-15 combined. 

 

So to my mind 18% isn't cover-your-eyes awful but it's well below "scratch to plus" standard. It means putting form 10-15 feet about like you'd hope to putt from 13-17'. 

 

13 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

A weakness in your game, given this data from Shotscope.  (https://shotscope.com/blog/stats/putting-make-percentages-by-handicap-how-do-you-compare/)

 

They break it down slightly differently---6'-12' and 12'-18'---but neither has an 18% make rate doing very well.  18% makes you either a 20 HDCP putter, or worse than that.

 

Sorry.

Thanks guys.  You can’t hurt my feelings. Lol. I know me  better than anyone! 😂.   

 

 

 

[MelloYello]

50 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Huh.  Maybe we need to reword instruction.  And I’ll preface by saying , I realize a couple have attempted this already ( fawcett ) ….. but for some reason that thing you just said rang a bell. I went and looked at my own stats and said “ huh”.  
 

maybe we need to preach less make or no make , and more “ lag”?   Why oh why am I now hearing Scott’s voice. 🤣…. It never clicked before.  

I say that because I’ve always said I could almost never 3 putt if I just lag everything.  I’ve done that a million times protecting a score.  Just stop trying to make them.  And get the rest way around in even par.  Or if I play to make putts.  I 3 putt a lot.  
 

how would you characterize a 18 % make rate for 10-15 feet for a scratch to plus player ? 

 

Well, one guy's description of "trying to make it" is another guy's description of "lagging" it. They might even be the same thing depending on who you talk to. I've heard some good putters decry lagging because they hear that and think of it as a sloppy, careless attempt. To others, lagging it might describe (as you do) the elimination of some unhelpful tendency to try and make it, force it, ram it, etc. 

 

I think you should pick whatever verbiage describes what's proven to work best. 

 

I've stopped listening to players particular verbiage. There's no clear definition for any of this stuff. 

[North Butte]

For instance, when I have a "stroke thought" during my putting (sometimes I just try to visualize and not self-talk) the thing I say to myself as I'm about to make the stroke is "Let's give it a chance". 

 

To me that doesn't connote ramming it in or hitting it past the hole or trying not to leave it short. It's just a reminder not to be worrying about the result. For me "give it a chance" means making a good stroke and rolling the ball in the direction I've chosen. 

 

It's all personal psycho-gobbledegook I know...

[Peter_b]

Oh no no no, this wasn’t about making the putt, most of you guys don't even have a faceangle open or closed sub 0.8 so you quite sure almost allways miss that 13 footer if you don't misread in the opposite direction. Lets make it a 20 footer so you really have to get inside 6 feet so your miserable open or closed clubface has a chance for the second one. Well it’s the sad truth for most of us. 

So everything plays against us, the grain, that is pushed towards us by the down flowing water all season, we need to hit it way harder, even crazy hard because of that 7 stimp and the hole still looks close somehow for the intended swing. And ok some of you say it’s the fear of a downhill backputt. Well that one is strange because I can not backputt even if I want to sometimes. I leave it short even if I want to hit it past to backputt. There is a discrepancy what my small brain calculates and the effect on the ball.  Why?

I have the strange feeling that there is more to it. And I think its in the stroke. Is the ball really rolling well uphill? Are we delofting the putter and having less rise angle? Are we giving backspin to the ball? Do you guys adapt posture to the slope? I dont, maybe I should? 

[iacas]

19 minutes ago, Peter_b said:

most of you guys don't even have a faceangle open or closed sub 0.8 so you quite sure almost allways miss that 13 footer

 

Well that's not really true.

 

 

(45:19 mark)

[Peter_b]

 

7 hours ago, iacas said:

Well that's not really true.

 

Really awesome video summing the numbers up, love it, thank you. I still would say it is true when I say most of us miss a 13 footer. Joe 0.9 and Pro 0.5 is averaged it will look like a gauss curve. Lets say those numbers are true, I believe the Pro 0.5, you can not compete above +- 0.8 face at impact regularly. In that group below 0.8 is mandatory. The 0.9 I believe is very low for the Joe. Joe group must be a close to scratch group he tested. But OK lets accept Joe is 0.9 average then a large portion of the group will miss above 10.7  and most of the Joe group will miss at 13 feet.

But this is not the topic and that is why I do not want to talk about uphill holed putts. Getting there is the threads problem. I want to know the cause we leave uphill putts dangerously short some times, that inexplicable astonishment when you cant see anything you did wrong, and I do believe it has to do with the physics from the clubface with uphill putts not psychology.

 

 

 

 

Watching the whole video he says spin and green characteristics are negligible. That would really mean it’s a simple misinterpretation of force to distance and elevantion.

 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Peter_b

[Sean124]

19 minutes ago, Peter_b said:

 

 

Getting there is the threads problem. I want to know the cause we leave uphill putts dangerously short some times

This seems pretty simple to me. You get used to the average green speed for the day, so the average miss on an uphill putt is short. 
 

I love downhill putts on all but the fastest greens. Start the ball online and it gets there. 

[Peter_b]

That video from Iacas answers what happens in uphill putts. It’s hard to judge the force for an uphill putt and you forget the estimation with exponential speed looking at your putter. The longer the putt is the less you see the hole the more you focus on the putt itself. Now me sitting in that crowd, I  would have asked what he thinks about peripheral vision and not looking at the hole itself. That would be a nice test. I would put on the table that you do not have to putt heads up to not forget the force you need but its enough to just move your mind to the putt and let the peripheral vision in, not blend it out focusing on the putter. The best of both worlds if you like. I also dont think you need to look at the hole but the the hole stretch. You don't need to putt heads up to "see the hole" and remember. 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Peter_b

[Peter_b]

2 hours ago, Sean124 said:

I love downhill putts on all but the fastest greens. Start the ball online and it gets there. 

 

That would quite fit the explanation and my observation too. A downhill putt is scary you will focus on the line and the hole. Its finesse. Uphill is something more brute force. Your head is at the putter which is the problem with instant amnesia.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Peter_b

[Hawkeye77]

14 hours ago, Peter_b said:

Oh no no no, this wasn’t about making the putt, most of you guys don't even have a faceangle open or closed sub 0.8 so you quite sure almost allways miss that 13 footer if you don't misread in the opposite direction. Lets make it a 20 footer so you really have to get inside 6 feet so your miserable open or closed clubface has a chance for the second one. Well it’s the sad truth for most of us. 

So everything plays against us, the grain, that is pushed towards us by the down flowing water all season, we need to hit it way harder, even crazy hard because of that 7 stimp and the hole still looks close somehow for the intended swing. And ok some of you say it’s the fear of a downhill backputt. Well that one is strange because I can not backputt even if I want to sometimes. I leave it short even if I want to hit it past to backputt. There is a discrepancy what my small brain calculates and the effect on the ball.  Why?

I have the strange feeling that there is more to it. And I think it’s in the stroke. Is the ball really rolling well uphill? Are we delofting the putter and having less rise angle? Are we giving backspin to the ball? Do you guys adapt posture to the slope? I dont, maybe I should? 

Your small brain, as you say, may be the only issue. On about nothing for the sake of being on about nothing. 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Hawkeye77

[iacas]

7 hours ago, Peter_b said:

Really awesome video summing the numbers up, love it, thank you. I still would say it is true when I say most of us miss a 13 footer. Joe 0.9 and Pro 0.5 is averaged it will look like a gauss curve.

 

It's not an average. Most amateurs, most of the time, are within 0.9° (right or left).

[RoyalTroon]

19 hours ago, MelloYello said:

I've stopped listening to players particular verbiage. There's no clear definition for any of this stuff. 

 

Please move to the head of the class...

 

18 hours ago, North Butte said:

For me "give it a chance" means making a good stroke and rolling the ball in the direction I've chosen. 

 

It's all personal psycho-gobbledegook I know...

 

...you too. 

[Soloman1]

 

21 hours ago, bluedot said:

According to the USGA ( and any superintendent you talk to) all the stuff about grass growing toward a pond or a mountain or the west or whatever is all BS.  For the most part, there’s just gravity and nothing else.

 

Darn, bluedot. We’re supposed to keep myths going. Now a few more people may putt better and that can cost us money.

 

Hold the club like a bird, ball starts on path line, grain follows the sun, hit down on a wedge to add spin, ball rides up the clubface, high grass wraps around the hosel, putts break away from the mountain, these are all moneymakers for us that we want others to keep thinking.

 

Oh, and we didn’t really go to the moon, it was filmed in Hollywood. Einstein failed math, we only use 10% of our brain, etc.

[Peter_b]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

 

It's not an average. Most amateurs, most of the time, are within 0.9° (right or left).

 

I think Joes angle to be between 1 and 2 degree. Sadly I can not find any research on this. Its not easy to get the face at impact to sub 1 constantly on a non vertical plane with one hand lower than the other.