Hand Depth in Backswing vs. Keeping Arms in Front of Torso

[ThinkingPlus]

27 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

I'll try to square the circle:  (and I'm just guessing here, mind) Can you get depth and keep your hands in front of your torso by making a much bigger shoulder turn?  Your hands will still be 'in front' of your torso, but your torso will be rotated enough that your hands will be back and around from their address position?

 

Though I'm with @bladehunter on a lot of this.  Especially if I try to incorporate ideas from more than one guru.  Oh well, back to Broomforce drills...

 

 

For simplicity, I am assuming 90 degree shoulder turn.

[Zitlow]

Get into your set up without a club. Touch the finger tips of your right hand to the top of your right shoulder and turn. Unfold your arm to 90*. 

 

Now reach with your left hand and lock pinkies with your right hand. 

[ThinkingPlus]

2 hours ago, Varry_Hardon said:

Seems relevant :

 

 

Outstanding video. I would never have consciously tried to move my shoulder blades in that fashion in the golf swing. 

[Valtiel]

Definitely a 3D problem as you can have lots of depth AND be very "connected" at the same time:



Case in point is someone like Kuchar:



On the left you'd argue he has quite a lot of depth, but on the right his hands/arms are clearly VERY in front of his torso.

[Nickc]

An exercise to show the connection (at least the first part is an AMG exercise) is to take a club and address the ball position, then lift and bend the arms to place the club on your right (trail) shoulder, thenbperform your takeaway pivot/turn so your back is towards the target. Now extend your trail arm so that the upper arm is about parallel to the ground and the angle between the forearm and upper arm of your trail arm is slightly greater than 90 degrees. You now have width and some depth in your back swing. Finally to show your arms are still in front of your torso - keeping your arms in this position (ie don't  lowrr them )turn your torso to face the original address position. Hey presto your arms and club are still in front of your torso!

[ThinkingPlus]

15 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Definitely a 3D problem as you can have lots of depth AND be very "connected" at the same time:



Case in point is someone like Kuchar:



On the left you'd argue he has quite a lot of depth, but on the right his hands/arms are clearly VERY in front of his torso.

Apparently I don't understand the meaning of "in front of torso". In both cases above, the DTL view shows hands clearly not in front of the torso/shoulders. In both cases the hands are well outside the torso/shoulders. I agree both are "connected", but I don't think that is what most mean when they say in front of torso/shoulders.

[Soloman1]

What a messy topic. Not your questions, but the lack of clarity in people saying things. Kind of like people in the business saying don’t do this too much or too little, do it juuuuust right.

 

Unfortunately, the shoulders or shoulder motion vs torso movement has to be part of the equation. There’s a camp that believes the shoulders (or lead shoulder) should not move independently of the torso for iron swings. When the torso stops, there should be no arm runoff, since the club hinge should be finished before then.

 

There’s a lot of merit to it. More independent movements of the shoulder or wrist beyond can reduce swing consistency for irons.

 

Hyperextending the lead elbow increases depth.

 

Maybe depth should defined as distance of club handle to a position on the spine. That’s where shoulder movement plays a big part. And all of it affects sequencing in the downswing, which is player dependent.

 

Driver is a different animal than irons. Except for John Daly and a few others, stopping hinge or club runoff after the shoulders stop is usually a goal.

 

Getting back to sequence and a consistent fade from the tee, added run on probably isn’t going to help with that. Women have an advantage and a disadvantage. The advantage is the ability to rotate the pelvis faster than men in the downswing, so being a little more open at impact  is good for fade. The disadvantage is hand and wrist movements have less power, but hand strength can be increased by exercises.

 

The result of no shoulder motion and not reaching for the sky, coupled with faster pelvis rotation and perhaps a small grip change of the trail hand a little stronger (rotated to the side or a little under) should make that consistent driver fade a reality, in my view.

 

If you’re pretty flat through the ball, ball position a little forward can be added to the mess.

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by Soloman1

[Jeselnik]

8 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

So these backswing thoughts/positions seem to be contradictory yet are frequently mentioned as the "right" thing to do. Are they compatible goals? Is one more right than the other? Are these player specific or shot shape specific recommendations? Open for discussion.

In front means dont swing arms much, pros dont.

Depth means turn hips, turn chest, glide shoulders, a little thoracic extension and swing arms a little.  AMG has an excellent video.

 

JNIK

[tthomasgolfer605]

1 hour ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Apparently I don't understand the meaning of "in front of torso". In both cases above, the DTL view shows hands clearly not in front of the torso/shoulders. In both cases the hands are well outside the torso/shoulders. I agree both are "connected", but I don't think that is what most mean when they say in front of torso/shoulders.

It's because everyone jumped on the Tiger bandwagon for a particular feel he had rather than what he actually did. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

49 minutes ago, Jeselnik said:

In front means dont swing arms much, pros dont.

Depth means turn hips, turn chest, glide shoulders, a little thoracic extension and swing arms a little.  AMG has an excellent video.

 

JNIK

Pros swing their arms up quite a bit while the body turns. 

[Jeselnik]

1 minute ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Pros swing their arms up quite a bit while the body turns. 

Some more than others, OP did not address UP.

 

JNIK

[Valtiel]

3 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Apparently I don't understand the meaning of "in front of torso". In both cases above, the DTL view shows hands clearly not in front of the torso/shoulders. In both cases the hands are well outside the torso/shoulders. I agree both are "connected", but I don't think that is what most mean when they say in front of torso/shoulders.

Yeah I think "in front of" is definitely one of those stupid golf terms that doesn't correspond with reality much, and when it does it can mean different things.

@iacas Covered what I was going to try to mention, that shoulder turn is a necessary factor here. Once that hands/arms start moving too independent of the shoulder turn i.e. backswing overrun then you start getting the "stuck/behind/disconnected" stuff in terms of backswing position. Combine that with the tendency for some folks to reroute their hands deeper/behind them as a misinterpretation of how to shallow or cure an OTT move and you get the other half of the stuck/behind/disconnected.

Keeping the arm swing linked to the shoulder turn + keeping the hand path from deepening excessively in the downswing = "in front of" as far as i'm concerned. Depth is/can be completely independent here.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Valtiel

[MonteScheinblum]

If done correctly, the hands are deep and infringe of the chest.  It’s about turning, tilting and hinging correctly.

 

There are not contradictory ideas among good instructors, just different perceptions by the instructors and misperceptions when ideas are analyzed.

[MPStrat]

 

@ThinkingPlus

 

[ThinkingPlus]

2 hours ago, Jeselnik said:

Some more than others, OP did not address UP.

 

JNIK

Up takes care of everything, but is hard to do for most.

[ThinkingPlus]

Just now, MPStrat said:

 

@ThinkingPlus

 

👍

[Jeselnik]

4 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Up takes care of everything, but is hard to do for most.

Up takes care of everything would be interesting, care to expound?

 

JNIK

[ThinkingPlus]

5 hours ago, Jeselnik said:

Up takes care of everything would be interesting, care to expound?

 

JNIK

High hands at the top of the backswing give you both depth and stay in front of the torso.

[glk]

21 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

It has always been confusing to me as well. It shouldn't be difficult to define a region of acceptability for the hands at the top of the backswing relative to trail shoulder or head or etc... and get away from vague terms like "keep the club in front of the torso".

Hand Depth - the horizontal distance the hands are from the ball.

 

A guideline is at the top of the backswing a line dropped from the hands to the ground should align with the trail heel - this is considered neutral - movement away from the ball adds depth, movement toward the ball removes depth.        

 

Factors are how flat or upright the lead arm gets, trail arm motion, and  how much hip turn is created and it's effect on turning the torso. 

 

On hands back in front - assuming at setup hands are aligned with sternum and "in front", then the hands moves to the trail side during the backswing and in the downswing move back toward the sternum - depending on the swing the hands can get back in front before/at impact or  in the follow thru - most quality swings don't have hands in front until well into the follow thru.

 

All that said, Ryan Fox has an elite swing yet has very limited depth and Kuchar gets his hands decently behind his heel.    So depends on a number of things as to whether the depth is an issue.

 

Only if you are a golf geek - Shauheen talking depth with another instructor - example swings and lots of discussion on factors in making a player change in depth.   It is 40 minutes long.

 

Edited August 16, 2023 by glk

[bladehunter]

21 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

So you are throwing the BS flag on "keep in front of shoulders/torso" at the top of the backswing trope. That agrees with what I have seen more often in video.

Interesting topic. I’ll admit I’m struggling to follow. But I think I’m getting it now.  
 

 

For what it’s worth I agree with @TLUBulldogGolf…. I always thought of this as a takeaway thing.  As in if you rip your hands back first , you’re going to be disconnected from the get go and reconnecting is going to be near impossible without a pause at the top.  As a beginner years ago I did this.   And the fix was to start the swig with my belt buckle. My arms/hands passive .  They just turned with my hips/torso and then did what the do at the top. Then I’d fire down to the ball.    I have no idea nor do I pay attention to width at the top.  I care more about hands away from my body coming down than I do behind my body at the top.  

[ThinkingPlus]

3 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Interesting topic. I’ll admit I’m struggling to follow. But I think I’m getting it now.  
 

 

For what it’s worth I agree with @TLUBulldogGolf…. I always thought of this as a takeaway thing.  As in if you rip your hands back first , you’re going to be disconnected from the get go and reconnecting is going to be near impossible without a pause at the top.  As a beginner years ago I did this.   And the fix was to start the swig with my belt buckle. My arms/hands passive .  They just turned with my hips/torso and then did what the do at the top. Then I’d fire down to the ball.    I have no idea nor do I pay attention to width at the top.  I care more about hands away from my body coming down than I do behind my body at the top.  

I get confused with some of the suggestions I see from instructors and instructional videos. It is difficult separating the wheat from the chaff. Also my swing issues are minority problems. AOA is too shallow, path is too in to out, shot shape is too much draw, etc... . Most swing suggestions make me worse. 

 

I understand depth much better now that we have what seems to be an unambiguous definition of horizontal distance from ball to hands at the top. Keeping hands in front of torso/shoulders isn't defined well and probably should get dropped in the dust bin of faulty thoughts.

[ThinkingPlus]

47 minutes ago, glk said:

Hand Depth - the horizontal distance the hands are from the ball.

 

A guideline is at the top of the backswing a line dropped from the hands to the ground should align with the trail heel - this is considered neutral - movement away from the ball adds depth, movement toward the ball removes depth.        

 

Factors are how flat or upright the lead arm gets, trail arm motion, and  how much hip turn is created and it's effect on turning the torso. 

 

On hands back in front - assuming at setup hands are aligned with sternum and "in front", then the hands moves to the trail side during the backswing and in the downswing move back toward the sternum - depending on the swing the hands can get back in front before/at impact or  in the follow thru - most quality swings don't have hands in front until well into the follow thru.

 

All that said, Ryan Fox has an elite swing yet has very limited depth and Kuchar gets his hands decently behind his heel.    So depends on a number of things as to whether the depth is an issue.

 

Only if you are a golf geek - Shauheen talking depth with another instructor - example swings and lots of discussion on factors in making a player change in depth.   It is 40 minutes long.

 

Apparently I am a golf geek. First half of that discussion was fantastic and the kind of technical analysis that makes sense to me.

[bladehunter]

19 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Outstanding video. I would never have consciously tried to move my shoulder blades in that fashion in the golf swing. 

In the words of my 15 year old.     
 

 

“Bro”!    🤣
 

 

 I’m going to the range early today !  I just felt something that I haven’t felt.  That video is new info.   Finding new Info that actually translates isn’t common !  

[jonsnow]

9 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

In the words of my 15 year old.     
 

 

“Bro”!    🤣
 

 

 I’m going to the range early today !  I just felt something that I haven’t felt.  That video is new info.   Finding new Info that actually translates isn’t common !  

I feel the same way. I tend to extend my arms & squeeze them together slightly, getting them more on top of my chest than beside my chest & retracting both shoulder blades to get rid of as much of that rounded shoulder look & feel as possible at address. Makes it very difficult to move the shoulders as described in the video. 

[KNOWMOREDOUBLES]

At about the 3-minute mark he talks about hands in front of the chest, but there is depth with the club.

 

https://www.facebook.com/GoodGoodSquad/videos/2057579691240741/?vh=e&mibextid=vTn5qL

Edited August 16, 2023 by KNOWMOREDOUBLES

[glk]

6 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Apparently I am a golf geek. First half of that discussion was fantastic and the kind of technical analysis that makes sense to me.

Self awareness is a good thing.

[Simpsonia]

You should try iteach's dodgeball drill. Rather than use something like the tour striker smartball lower on the arms, you use an 8 or 9" dodgeball right on the chest between the arms to promote connection, but also keeps your hands relatively in front. It doesn't allow you to fake depth since your lead arm can't get too far across the chest. 

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CpgOUrbD7Ze/?hl=en