3 questions: adding to bag, lateral hazard drop, and unmarked area

[RoyalMustang]

Question 1:

 

1) is finding golf balls along the way with no intent to play them (as they don't even match the balls I am playing for the round) a penalty? I was told that a guy got DQ'd from a tournament around here for picking up a few extra balls in the woods while helping another player search for his; not sure if I believe that (unless he played them which wasn't mentioned). 

 

What about picking up tees that are readily available on the tee box? I haven't bought a tee since I started playing. 

 

2) lateral (red) hazard drop: 2 club lengths or behind the hazard, in line with hazard entry point and the pin. So basically, the 2 club lengths would be used for a lateral hazard that goes into, say, trees so that I could get away from the trees, while I would go backwards if I had a lateral hazard that only crossed water and left me a clean shot? In that 2nd scenario, choosing either one really has no difference on the outcome. 

 

3) unmarked hazard edge of fairway. A couple of courses don't bother to mark all areas: one I play at has a forest on the right side of the fairway (great place to find a dozen new Pro V1s BTW. The houses behind the forest are definitely OB but what about that forest if it isn't marked? Lost ball? Or perhaps there is a local rule that explains it: on that course, everywhere else is OB for houses/yards and red for the trees lining the course. Everything else like it is marked red but that one specifically doesn't have a marking. 

 

Thanks in advance! 

[Colin L]

1) You can pick up  any ball you find.. Unless required by a Local Rule  to use the same make and type of ball you can play any ball you found.) And you can pick up and use any tees you find.

2. The relief options for a red penalty area are stroke and distance, dropping within two clublengths of where  your ball last crossed the margin or dropping as far back as you like on the course on the line  from the hole through where your ball last crossed the edge of the margin.

3. I don't know what the "unmarked hazard edge of fairway" is but with the exception of an unmarked area of water (whether wet or dry), if it isn't marked in some way, play your ball as it lies.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Colin L

[Augster]

Colin is of course correct. 
 

I’ll help on 3.

 

3. If the woods aren’t marked red, and there isn’t a mention on the card or in the pro shop under local rules, then when you hit your ball in there and can’t find it, it’s a lost ball. S&D or E-5. 
 

BUT, since you say ALL other woods at this course are marked as red, playing casually, I’d play it as red also. In a tourney, because you know about it, ask the committee beforehand which way they are playing it, or if they went out and marked it correctly. 

[RoyalMustang]

15 hours ago, Augster said:

Colin is of course correct. 
 

I’ll help on 3.

 

3. If the woods aren’t marked red, and there isn’t a mention on the card or in the pro shop under local rules, then when you hit your ball in there and can’t find it, it’s a lost ball. S&D or E-5. 
 

BUT, since you say ALL other woods at this course are marked as red, playing casually, I’d play it as red also. In a tourney, because you know about it, ask the committee beforehand which way they are playing it, or if they went out and marked it correctly. 

 

that makes sense on 3: if that was a "lost ball" situation for the woods, it should be marked with white stakes to avoid confusion. I think they just forgot but given what we see on every other hole with bordering woods, it would be a red stake hazard. Which isn't as great as it sounds, because the forest is the dogleg and the trees are tall. If you go straight in, you have to drop pretty far back (point of entry and pin placement), otherwise you'd never get over the trees and simply be punching sideways. It's a par 5 and that leaves me about 175 off the tee at the drop. I can hit a 6-iron from there and get over the trees, leaving me another 7-iron to a narrow green if I'm lucky and a 2-putt for a bogey save. 

 

Luckily I haven't been in there in awhile. 

[RoyalMustang]

16 hours ago, Colin L said:

1) You can pick up  any ball you find.. Unless required by a Local Rule  to use the same make and type of ball you can play any ball you found.) And you can pick up and use any tees you find.

2. The relief options for a red penalty area are stroke and distance, dropping within two clublengths of where  your ball last crossed the margin or dropping as far back as you like on the course on the line  from the hole through where your ball last crossed the edge of the margin.

3. I don't know what the "unmarked hazard edge of fairway" is but with the exception of an unmarked area of water (whether wet or dry), if it isn't marked in some way, play your ball as it lies.

 

Thanks. That's how I read the rules as well. I also saw that another player can give you a ball if they so choose. 

 

Even if a DQ were possible for picking up lost balls in the woods along the way, it totally goes against the spirit of the rules to get someone DQ'd if they had no intention of playing those balls. Who wants to say no to a few shiny new Pro V1s? You'd have to be a real A-hole to argue that.  

Edited August 23, 2023 by RoyalMustang

[jlbos83]

54 minutes ago, RoyalMustang said:

 

that makes sense on 3: if that was a "lost ball" situation for the woods, it should be marked with white stakes to avoid confusion. I think they just forgot but given what we see on every other hole with bordering woods, it would be a red stake hazard. Which isn't as great as it sounds, because the forest is the dogleg and the trees are tall. If you go straight in, you have to drop pretty far back (point of entry and pin placement), otherwise you'd never get over the trees and simply be punching sideways. It's a par 5 and that leaves me about 175 off the tee at the drop. I can hit a 6-iron from there and get over the trees, leaving me another 7-iron to a narrow green if I'm lucky and a 2-putt for a bogey save. 

 

Luckily I haven't been in there in awhile. 

If you go into the trees, and you can find it, you play it, or use an unplayable option.  If it is a punch out, that's what it is.  That happens all the time.  No need to put of any stakes at all.  The idea of making an area of trees a red penalty area is kind of a new one, trying to keep up the pace of play.  If you lose a ball it's stroke and distance, the way it's always been.  

As far as picking up balls, rule-wise it is not a problem.  Before I pick up any ball, I consider whether there is any way that the ball could be someone's ball from another hole.  I play some courses that are pretty linear where that's pretty impossible, and some compact courses where a ball could come from several different holes.  A free ball isn't worth messing up someone else's day.  And don't spend time looking for them!

[jacob7071]

1 hour ago, RoyalMustang said:

 

that makes sense on 3: if that was a "lost ball" situation for the woods, it should be marked with white stakes to avoid confusion. I think they just forgot but given what we see on every other hole with bordering woods, it would be a red stake hazard. Which isn't as great as it sounds, because the forest is the dogleg and the trees are tall. If you go straight in, you have to drop pretty far back (point of entry and pin placement), otherwise you'd never get over the trees and simply be punching sideways. It's a par 5 and that leaves me about 175 off the tee at the drop. I can hit a 6-iron from there and get over the trees, leaving me another 7-iron to a narrow green if I'm lucky and a 2-putt for a bogey save. 

 

Luckily I haven't been in there in awhile. 

White stakes indicate OB.  If the area isn't intended to be OB, then it shouldn't be marked with white stakes. 

[ChaosTheory]

I play the same course as @RoyalMustang 🙂

I have raised the issue of the unmarked woods, and I am told that many before me have as well.  Apparently the answer is that for some reason, the head pro feels that those particular woods should not be penalty areas. #3 and #8 come to mind, but there may be others.  They are basically impenetrable, not too mention laced with poison ivy, and probably venomous snakes.  I think it's stupid, and so does every member whose opinion I've heard.  He could make a case that you have to be very wayward to hit into those trees, but so what?  If not that, then I have no idea why he resists this, other than maintenance of stakes and paint.  That may very well be it.

 

I do know that golfer pressure has led to some woods now being marked as red, that were not in the past.  It wouldn't hurt to voice your thoughts to management. 

[RoyalMustang]

21 hours ago, Snowman9000 said:

I play the same course as @RoyalMustang 🙂

I have raised the issue of the unmarked woods, and I am told that many before me have as well.  Apparently the answer is that for some reason, the head pro feels that those particular woods should not be penalty areas. #3 and #8 come to mind, but there may be others.  They are basically impenetrable, not too mention laced with poison ivy, and probably venomous snakes.  I think it's stupid, and so does every member whose opinion I've heard.  He could make a case that you have to be very wayward to hit into those trees, but so what?  If not that, then I have no idea why he resists this, other than maintenance of stakes and paint.  That may very well be it.

 

I do know that golfer pressure has led to some woods now being marked as red, that were not in the past.  It wouldn't hurt to voice your thoughts to management. 

 

Interesting! As it turns out, the ONLY time I've ever gotten poison ivy in my life is that area on #3 the first time I played the course. I learned my lesson and found a different way into those woods. Last time I was in there, I scooped up probably 30 balls (now that I know to avoid poison ivy). The week before, it was 25. This destroys the argument that the area is only being hit by "very wayward" drives. 

 

Y'all tell me if these trees are "wayward".  Below are 2 screenshots. I play blues 90% of the time but they are very much in play for white. In fact, a decently long hitter should be aiming just to the left of those to carry and get home in 2. Playing blues, I typically aim about 40 yards left and try to play a fade; if you smoke a ball straight from the tips there, you can roll through the fairway on the backside. 

Edited August 24, 2023 by RoyalMustang

[RoyalMustang]

22 hours ago, jlbos83 said:

If you go into the trees, and you can find it, you play it, or use an unplayable option.  If it is a punch out, that's what it is.  That happens all the time.  No need to put of any stakes at all.  The idea of making an area of trees a red penalty area is kind of a new one, trying to keep up the pace of play.  If you lose a ball it's stroke and distance, the way it's always been.  

As far as picking up balls, rule-wise it is not a problem.  Before I pick up any ball, I consider whether there is any way that the ball could be someone's ball from another hole.  I play some courses that are pretty linear where that's pretty impossible, and some compact courses where a ball could come from several different holes.  A free ball isn't worth messing up someone else's day.  And don't spend time looking for them!

 

Sure, but this area is a thick forest with shrubs and poison ivy: you can't punch 98% of the time and being 20 yards in to a forest doesn't allow for much help on an unplayable ball. It really should be marked as OB or hazard to prevent confusion. 

I posted screen shots of the forest to the right of the line: you can see that it clearly is not a playable area. 

[jacob7071]

If it's too thick to even play out of 98% of the time and also covered in poison ivy, I agree with you.  I personally don't like the stroke & distance penalty for hitting it there.  It doesn't look like it's that far off the fairway.  But it also doesn't look like it's off the golf course.  Calling it OB prohibits playing from there even if, by some miracle, you find your ball and can take a swing, so I don't think it should be OB either.  I'd probably prefer it to be a red penalty area.  

 

That said, one (including your pro apparently) could be of the opinion that it's similar to the gorse bushes at some of the Open courses.  It's part of the strategy of playing the course, and if you don't want the penalty, don't hit your ball there.  

 

Lobby for the red penalty area, but until then, just keep it left.  

[GoGoErky]

47 minutes ago, RoyalMustang said:

 

Sure, but this area is a thick forest with shrubs and poison ivy: you can't punch 98% of the time and being 20 yards in to a forest doesn't allow for much help on an unplayable ball. It really should be marked as OB or hazard to prevent confusion. 

I posted screen shots of the forest to the right of the line: you can see that it clearly is not a playable area. 

There’s no need for on there. It’s part of the course or a part of the course that hasn’t been determined not to be played from. I played a course that had a maintenance shed between trees and the road with gravel path. The course marked from the start of the gravel path to past the shed ob, but if you were on that side and short of the path you were still in play.

 

So a penalty area marking could be done, but it’s not really that confusing as it stands now.

 

You can either go look for your ball and try to find it and either play it as it lies or declare unplayable and use the options for unplayable which includes stroke and distance.

 

Or don’t look and it’s now a lost ball and it’s stroke and distance.

 

[Augster]

Up until a few years ago, woods were woods. To be marked as a red PA, it had to contain water. So when a player hit it into the woods, they’d almost always have to hit a provisional ball. 
 

Woods are supposed to be avoided. Fairways are supposed to be hit. 
 

BUT, to mark all the woods on the entire course as RPA, EXCEPT this little spot is just confusing and dumb IMO. 
 

[RoyalMustang]

1 hour ago, jacob7071 said:

If it's too thick to even play out of 98% of the time and also covered in poison ivy, I agree with you.  I personally don't like the stroke & distance penalty for hitting it there.  It doesn't look like it's that far off the fairway.  But it also doesn't look like it's off the golf course.  Calling it OB prohibits playing from there even if, by some miracle, you find your ball and can take a swing, so I don't think it should be OB either.  I'd probably prefer it to be a red penalty area.  

 

That said, one (including your pro apparently) could be of the opinion that it's similar to the gorse bushes at some of the Open courses.  It's part of the strategy of playing the course, and if you don't want the penalty, don't hit your ball there.  

 

Lobby for the red penalty area, but until then, just keep it left.  

 

Interestingly enough, everything you see on the LEFT side of that fairway (other side of cart path) is marked red hazard. Inconsistency is most of the issue in this example. 

[ChaosTheory]

I am pretty sure that at this course this comes down to work/cost for the maintenance of stakes and such.  Which of course should be trivial in the overall scheme of things.  I'm reminded of a Dilbert comic strip where the pointy haired boss said, "It all came together when I realized I hate our customers". 

 

🙂

 

 

[TayTaySlam]

Can anyone tell me about alternative to S+D which is the 2 stroke penalty? Is that just a local rule? Thank you 

[davep043]

6 minutes ago, TayTaySlam said:

Can anyone tell me about alternative to S+D which is the 2 stroke penalty? Is that just a local rule? Thank you 

That is Model Local Rule E-5.  You can find the complete MLR on either the R&A or the USGA website, or on the phone app.  Model Local Rules are in Section 8 of the Committee Procedures.

[sui generis]

20 minutes ago, TayTaySlam said:

Can anyone tell me about alternative to S+D which is the 2 stroke penalty? Is that just a local rule? Thank you 

 As Dave says, it's all there in E-5. Good luck. 😉

 

Or, here's a "short and sweet" version: Estimate the spot where the ball was lost or went out of bounds. From that spot, follow an arc equidistant from the flagstick to the nearest edge of the fairway, then extend that arc further by two club-lengths into the fairway. Drop a ball anywhere in the general area behind that arc. Add two penalty strokes.

 

[ChaosTheory]

30 minutes ago, TayTaySlam said:

Can anyone tell me about alternative to S+D which is the 2 stroke penalty? Is that just a local rule? Thank you 

As I understand it, under local rule E-5, this shows an example drop spot from which you’d be playing your 4th stroke.  Tee ball location in yellow spot in the trees.  Fairway edge at yellow dashes.  Green dot shows where you’d drop: Two clubs into the fairway on an arc from the ball to the fairway, using original ball’s distance from the flag to set the arc.
 

In this case it’s a nice drop versus re-teeing.

 

Someone will correct me if I’m wrong.

 

 

[jacob7071]

From that angle, it looks like the green dot may be a tad too close to the hole, but yes, that's the general idea.  2 club lengths into the fairway same distance from the hole as the yellow dot.  

[TayTaySlam]

Thank you 

[Shilgy]

On 8/22/2023 at 3:30 PM, Colin L said:

1) You can pick up  any ball you find.. Unless required by a Local Rule  to use the same make and type of ball you can play any ball you found.) And you can pick up and use any tees you find.

2. The relief options for a red penalty area are stroke and distance, dropping within two clublengths of where  your ball last crossed the margin or dropping as far back as you like on the course on the line  from the hole through where your ball last crossed the edge of the margin.

3. I don't know what the "unmarked hazard edge of fairway" is but with the exception of an unmarked area of water (whether wet or dry), if it isn't marked in some way, play your ball as it lies.

Hey! I remembered this thread…or another one on this subject…during a match at my club.  Playing against a looong time good player(he’s 83 now) and he was taking opposite side of the red penalty area on a par 3.  I told him he couldn’t do that with the 2019 rules and he looked at me cross eyed.  Because it was a partners match and his partner was close I told him to go ahead and play it that way.

Then showed him the “new” rule and available MLR which we do not use and is the only red area on our course where the old option would be viable.

 

So thank you to all of you that assist the rest of us with our rules questions!

[Mr. Bean]

On 8/24/2023 at 7:52 PM, RoyalMustang said:

 

Interestingly enough, everything you see on the LEFT side of that fairway (other side of cart path) is marked red hazard. Inconsistency is most of the issue in this example. 

 

From the picture and the explanations I can understand why there is a PA on the left hand side but not on the right hand side.

 

The woods on the left is farther away than the one on the right. Taking into account that roughly 85% of golfers play from their right side and many, many of those tend to slice the woods on the right is an area where those players tend to hit their ball when trying to get as close to the green as possible. So they are taking a risk instead of aiming way left and being safe.

 

Another thing is that taking that risk you risk big, i.e. if you end up in the woods on the right you are basically hitting 3 from the tee. But if you play safe and end up in the woods on the left you may drop at the edge of the PA and will be hitting 3 from there. So this is IMO a perfect example how markings on the course are planned to direct the choices players need to make. I have played numerous courses where this has been realized with e.g. OB on one side and lateral PA on the other. Take your pick.

 

And, as someone already pointed out, you may keep your ball on the fairway...

[RoyalMustang]

On 12/20/2023 at 3:25 AM, Mr. Bean said:

 

From the picture and the explanations I can understand why there is a PA on the left hand side but not on the right hand side.

 

The woods on the left is farther away than the one on the right. Taking into account that roughly 85% of golfers play from their right side and many, many of those tend to slice the woods on the right is an area where those players tend to hit their ball when trying to get as close to the green as possible. So they are taking a risk instead of aiming way left and being safe.

 

Another thing is that taking that risk you risk big, i.e. if you end up in the woods on the right you are basically hitting 3 from the tee. But if you play safe and end up in the woods on the left you may drop at the edge of the PA and will be hitting 3 from there. So this is IMO a perfect example how markings on the course are planned to direct the choices players need to make. I have played numerous courses where this has been realized with e.g. OB on one side and lateral PA on the other. Take your pick.

 

And, as someone already pointed out, you may keep your ball on the fairway...

 

Yeah, that makes sense, although if you play the tips, it's much easier to hit the woods on the right than the left if your target is between the two bunkers. The only way you can get to the left woods is a snap hook, while a pretty decent push (not even a slice) gets you there on the right. The same push that hits the woods on that hole will leave me in short rough on the par 4 two holes later and leave me in the fairway 5 holes later.   

 

The woods on the right aren't market with white stakes. If you hit it there, you have to take a lost ball if you can't find it. If you can, there is no way of hitting out of the woods; you can't take an unplayable lie and be OK. Either way, you'd have to re-tee right? It doesn't make sense: every other OB on the course is clearly marked with white stakes visible from the tee, and each area is obviously out of play (usually the housing development). 

 

I figure that was the original intent of hazards: so there was a clear process to getting the golfer back to playing, rather than trying to play a ball that's 100 feet deep in a forest. Take a penalty and get back into play. Otherwise, people would spend forever trying to hit a ball out of woods or having to re-tee. Without markers however, there is no clear process and it's bad for everyone, including the group behind!   

[davep043]

1 hour ago, RoyalMustang said:

Without markers however, there is no clear process and it's bad for everyone, including the group behind! 

I'd suggest that if there are no markers, and you know your ball is 100 feet into the woods, just take Stroke and Distance relief from the tee before walking forward.  That seems pretty clear to me.  Or play a Provisional, and don't search any deeper in the woods than you want to.  

I agree with @Mr. Bean, designers use various types of hazards (Penalty Areas, bunkers, OB) to guide a player.  Broadie's strokes gained theories make it even more clear, faced with a "stroke and distance" problem on one side and a red penalty area on the other, the ONLY correct place to aim is much nearer the red PA than the S&D.  Aiming at the center of the fairway may be a dumb choice at times.

[ChipNRun]

On 8/22/2023 at 6:47 PM, Augster said:

3. If the woods aren’t marked red, and there isn’t a mention on the card or in the pro shop under local rules, then when you hit your ball in there and can’t find it, it’s a lost ball. S&D or E-5.

 

About five years ago, my home course decided to increase the number of red hazard areas along the edge of the course. Our course was build in 1997 amid the big residential golf boom. Winding through the housing areas, the layout had 14 holes with trouble on both the left and right side of the fairway.

 

This is about twice as much opportunity for edge trouble as in older courses, where a rectangle of land was developed mainly as a golf course.

 

Several of the wooded areas on the interior of the course were re-marked as hazards. Those on outer edge of course remained white-stake OBs.