When to go to more forgiving irons?

[Bigjim1022]

I’m taking an honest look at my game as we get close to the end of the season.  For the first time I’ve tracked actual stats with the help of Arrcos.  
 

My SG #’s with driving and short game are both positive.  Where I lose the majority of my shots are on the approach and putting.  I’d say putting has been my biggest weakness all year-which is frustrating but I keep working on it.  
 

My approaches directionally are generally fine, not tour  level by any means but decent for a middle age golfer that plays twice a week.  I really lack consistency with distance control though-which in my mind points towards quality of strike.  My question is, will more forgiving irons really help with this or do I just need to practice more with my 5-PW?  
 

For reference I play Srixon Z785s and really like them, look great and feel great, PX LZ 6.5 shafts and my cap is 6.   Any thoughts are appreciated! 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Bigjim1022

[gvogel]

Your consistency with distance control might be solved by hitting more 3/4 shots with your irons.  Instead of hitting the full 7-iron, you would take something off the 6, for example.

[Bigjim1022]

19 minutes ago, gvogel said:

Your consistency with distance control might be solved by hitting more 3/4 shots with your irons.  Instead of hitting the full 7-iron, you would take something off the 6, for example.

A point well taken, my short game has really improved this year and I credit a lot of that to not taking a full swing inside 100 yards.  I’ve learned to hit  3/4 gap, sand and lob wedges more than ever before this year.  

[cfmgolf]

Do you see the issue on the range in practice sessions also?  Or just on the course?  If on the range, I would recommend the foot powder test on your irons to see if you have a consistent miss that causes the inconsistency - either toe or heel side.  If the miss is toe side which is causing the inconsistency, then I would think a more forgiving iron would give you better results.  If you are generally hitting the face in a consistent spot but still have issues with distance control, then it might be swing related somehow.  Just a few things to think about.  

[chollier986]

If you struggle with distance control, it is most likely strike related.  Game improvement irons will not help with that.  In my experience, my short to long dispersion is noticeably worse with game improvement irons vs players irons.

[ProV1Killa]

45 minutes ago, Bigjim1022 said:

I really lack consistency with distance control though-which in my mind points towards quality of strike.

When you say inconsistent what exactly are you seeing? 

 

Is there an obvious pattern in your misses?

 

Have you spent anytime on a launch monitor?  If I recall the specs of the Z785s correctly your 7 iron is 32*.  With SS for a PX 6.5 I would guess you comfortable cover # is somewhere between 178 and 185 with that 7 iron?  More importantly I would guess the average spin rate for the same 7 iron is in the 6,000 to 6,300 range?

 

Loaded question but how would you describe your average ball flight for an average strike?  Specifically, what is the average apex and is the ball reaching peak height closer to the target or closer to you?

[J_Tizzle]

13 minutes ago, ProV1Killa said:

When you say inconsistent what exactly are you seeing? 

 

Is there an obvious pattern in your misses?

 

Have you spent anytime on a launch monitor?  If I recall the specs of the Z785s correctly your 7 iron is 32*.  With SS for a PX 6.5 I would guess you comfortable cover # is somewhere between 178 and 185 with that 7 iron?  More importantly I would guess the average spin rate for the same 7 iron is in the 6,000 to 6,300 range?

 

Loaded question but how would you describe your average ball flight for an average strike?  Specifically, what is the average apex and is the ball reaching peak height closer to the target or closer to you?

 

I mean short answer is maybe.  It could be club choices and shot management causing you the problems, could be just skanking it around with irons as well.  So I'd recommend playing away from the pins and to middle yardages more than anything else and see if that improves your SG approach.

[Bigjim1022]

32 minutes ago, ProV1Killa said:

When you say inconsistent what exactly are you seeing? 

 

Is there an obvious pattern in your misses?

 

Have you spent anytime on a launch monitor?  If I recall the specs of the Z785s correctly your 7 iron is 32*.  With SS for a PX 6.5 I would guess you comfortable cover # is somewhere between 178 and 185 with that 7 iron?  More importantly I would guess the average spin rate for the same 7 iron is in the 6,000 to 6,300 range?

 

Loaded question but how would you describe your average ball flight for an average strike?  Specifically, what is the average apex and is the ball reaching peak height closer to the target or closer to you?

My tendency is to be short which leads me to think it’s a strike issue.  
 

I’ve spent some time on a launch monitor but don’t recall spin #’s.  My ball flight is HIGH, like a 7i typical apex is something like 110-120 ft.   It’s the LZ not the regular PX in 6.5.  I’d say on my best strikes with a 7i I’m getting about 165 tops.  REALLY high though.  I was fit into these shafts 4 years ago I think, when they came out.  I’d say the apex is closer to the target so I don’t think I’m ballooning shots.   I’ve considered changing shots to get a lower ball flight, thinking either S300 or PX.  

Edited October 14, 2023 by Bigjim1022

[Bigjim1022]

1 hour ago, cfmgolf said:

Do you see the issue on the range in practice sessions also?  Or just on the course?  If on the range, I would recommend the foot powder test on your irons to see if you have a consistent miss that causes the inconsistency - either toe or heel side.  If the miss is toe side which is causing the inconsistency, then I would think a more forgiving iron would give you better results.  If you are generally hitting the face in a consistent spot but still have issues with distance control, then it might be swing related somehow.  Just a few things to think about.  

I think the foot powder test is a good idea! 

[J_Tizzle]

3 minutes ago, Bigjim1022 said:

My tendency is to be short which leads me to think it’s a strike issue.  
 

I’ve spent some time on a launch monitor but don’t recall spin #’s.  My ball flight is HIGH, like a 7i typical apex is something like 110-120 ft.   It’s the LZ not the regular PX in 6.5.  I’d say on my best strikes with a 7i I’m getting about 165 tops.  REALLY high though.  I was fit into these shafts 4 years ago I think, when they came out.  I’d say the apex is closer to the target so I don’t think I’m ballooning shots.   I’ve considered changing shots to get a lower ball flight, thinking either S300 or PX.  

 

I mean this kinda goes to the whole idea of, if you hit it solid and end up short, you don't understand your true distances, but if you mishit it and end up short that could be a clubhead/shaft situation or club selection issue.

[ProV1Killa]

6 minutes ago, Bigjim1022 said:

I’d say on my best strikes with a 7i I’m getting about 165 tops.

165 is pretty short for that 7 iron.  

 

When looking at ballooning we are looking at how the ball acts at apex. The ball should climb steadily, flatten out, and then fall.  If the ball reaches apex and then looks like it is going up the face of a wave there is a spin issue. If the ball gets really high early I would lean towards the issue being too much dynamic loft and a swing fault to work out.

 

As the ball tends to fly high and short my guess is that you're tending to strike high in the center of the face, possibly slightly fat.  Do the foot powder test.  Strike should be centered between the 3rd and 5th groove, ideally.  If it is higher than that low point control is the issue and GI irons will not help.

[RogerinNewZealand]

Go out for a quick 9 just before its dark. Hit 5 9irons with markex balls 1 2 3 4 5. Pace out the distance etc. Next hole 5x 7 iron etc. Write the distance on tape just under the grip on back of shaft. Eg 9i 110...117

[Bigjim1022]

14 minutes ago, ProV1Killa said:

165 is pretty short for that 7 iron.  

 

When looking at ballooning we are looking at how the ball acts at apex. The ball should climb steadily, flatten out, and then fall.  If the ball reaches apex and then looks like it is going up the face of a wave there is a spin issue. If the ball gets really high early I would lean towards the issue being too much dynamic loft and a swing fault to work out.

 

As the ball tends to fly high and short my guess is that you're tending to strike high in the center of the face, possibly slightly fat.  Do the foot powder test.  Strike should be centered between the 3rd and 5th groove, ideally.  If it is higher than that low point control is the issue and GI irons will not help.

I have a tendency to flip and have fought an OTT move for quite some time now.  It’s gotten better this year but creeps in every now and then.  My irons are short compared to my driver/hybrids.  Sounds like I need to get on a monitor and to the range…sadly the snow will be flying soon. 

[puttingmatt]

Was a Z785's player for 4 years, simular 4 Handicap, thought was simular, picked up ZX5's,  and was not satisfied with performance of 7 through PW. Felt the sole was too large, especially coming from Z785's. Traded off the ZX5's, for the ZX7's.

Far better performance for me. Honestly did not see any substantial gain from using a more marketed forgiving club.

Actually, prefer the ZX7's. 

Edited October 15, 2023 by puttingmatt

[Bigjim1022]

18 minutes ago, puttingmatt said:

Was a Z785's player for 4 years, simular 

4 Handicap, thought was simular, picked up ZX5's,  and was not satisfied

with performance of 7 through PW.

Felt the sole was too large, especially coming from Z785's.

Traded off the ZX5's, for the ZX7's.

Far better performance for me. Honestly

did not see any substantial gain from using a more marketed forgiving club.

Actually, prefer the ZX7's. 

I’ve tried the new ZX7s but wasn’t impressed with the feel Vs the 785s

[btyh]

Personal experience, played titleist cbs since 2006. But golf slowed down to twice a month if I'm lucky. Got a deal on 718tmb and haven't looked back. Even better consistency dropping from x in the irons to stiff. 

[jomatty]

There are a lot of things that go into a good shaft fit but px LZ 6.5 seems like a lot of shaft for a 165 7 iron.  My 7 iron is like 160 and it makes my back sore just thinking about swinging 6.5’s.  Not sure there’s anything I. This but I would want to hit the 6.0 and see how it feels and if quality of strike improves.

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

4 hours ago, Bigjim1022 said:

My tendency is to be short which leads me to think it’s a strike issue.  
 

I’ve spent some time on a launch monitor but don’t recall spin #’s.  My ball flight is HIGH, like a 7i typical apex is something like 110-120 ft.   It’s the LZ not the regular PX in 6.5.  I’d say on my best strikes with a 7i I’m getting about 165 tops.  REALLY high though.  I was fit into these shafts 4 years ago I think, when they came out.  I’d say the apex is closer to the target so I don’t think I’m ballooning shots.   I’ve considered changing shots to get a lower ball flight, thinking either S300 or PX.  

 

Are you set on the LZs?  I mean, do you really like the feel?  Or did you end up in them?

 

If you're talking like PX 6.5 might be your jam, and your annoyed with your lack of distance and your high launch with your 7, maybe try some other shafts?  In addition to assessing your strike, measuring speed/spin etc...

 

I like X100, but I think I'd also like PX 6.5 (tried 6.0, solid, but still too left-happy).  As a higher launch/higher spin player, I'd never consider LZs without having it convincingly demonstrated they were superior.  LS, OTOH....

 

Definitely see where you're hitting it, but demo some shafts too, if you can.

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

34 minutes ago, jomatty said:

There are a lot of things that go into a good shaft fit but px LZ 6.5 seems like a lot of shaft for a 165 7 iron.  My 7 iron is like 160 and it makes my back sore just thinking about swinging 6.5’s.  Not sure there’s anything I. This but I would want to hit the 6.0 and see how it feels and if quality of strike improves.

Just guessing, but his 7 might be launching >21° and with like 7250 rpm.  That much launch and spin, 165 carry seems realistic, even with 120 ball speed or so.

 

Definitely demo a wide range, agreed.

[Bigjim1022]

1 hour ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

 

Are you set on the LZs?  I mean, do you really like the feel?  Or did you end up in them?

 

If you're talking like PX 6.5 might be your jam, and your annoyed with your lack of distance and your high launch with your 7, maybe try some other shafts?  In addition to assessing your strike, measuring speed/spin etc...

 

I like X100, but I think I'd also like PX 6.5 (tried 6.0, solid, but still too left-happy).  As a higher launch/higher spin player, I'd never consider LZs without having it convincingly demonstrated they were superior.  LS, OTOH....

 

Definitely see where you're hitting it, but demo some shafts too, if you can.

I’m not set on the LZs, was fit into them when I bought the 785s.  It was the top shaft choice using the mizuno shaft optimizer.  Feel is fine, I know going to the original PX 6.5 is not the way I want to go.  They feel too boards to me.  I’ve considered X100s but worry it will be too much shaft.  

[Bigjim1022]

54 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Just guessing, but his 7 might be launching >21° and with like 7250 rpm.  That much launch and spin, 165 carry seems realistic, even with 120 ball speed or so.

 

Definitely demo a wide range, agreed.

I’ve been wondering about how much spin I am getting from these this season.   This year we’ve had a ton of rain in VT and the greens have been softer than usual.  I’ve had more shots spin back this year than ever and even last year in normal conditions well struck shots were almost always near their ball mark.  

[Bigjim1022]

1 hour ago, jomatty said:

There are a lot of things that go into a good shaft fit but px LZ 6.5 seems like a lot of shaft for a 165 7 iron.  My 7 iron is like 160 and it makes my back sore just thinking about swinging 6.5’s.  Not sure there’s anything I. This but I would want to hit the 6.0 and see how it feels and if quality of strike improves.

I was surprised too when I was fit into them, until I really started paying attention to my stats I hadn’t thought much about them! 

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

Just now, Bigjim1022 said:

I’m not set on the LZs, was fit into them when I bought the 785s.  It was the top shaft choice using the mizuno shaft optimizer.  Feel is fine, I know going to the original PX 6.5 is not the way I want to go.  They feel too boards to me.  I’ve considered X100s but worry it will be too much shaft.  

PX 6.5 FCMs quite a bit higher.  It's a "more unified" shaft feel.  At least the 6.0s were.

 

I would demo widely.  Though, it's likely not going to solve your launch and spin problems if they're really egregious.  Only lessons and work will.  (Nodding head in empathy...)  But that can work.  I've dropped launch a few degrees, improved ball speed by 10-ish mph (and likely dropped spin by 500-750 rpm.  You can too.

 

I'd also try like C-taper S+, maybe Modus 130S too.  But really, what your fitter recommends.

 

 

 

[Bigjim1022]

11 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

PX 6.5 FCMs quite a bit higher.  It's a "more unified" shaft feel.  At least the 6.0s were.

 

I would demo widely.  Though, it's likely not going to solve your launch and spin problems if they're really egregious.  Only lessons and work will.  (Nodding head in empathy...)  But that can work.  I've dropped launch a few degrees, improved ball speed by 10-ish mph (and likely dropped spin by 500-750 rpm.  You can too.

 

I'd also try like C-taper S+, maybe Modus 130S too.  But really, what your fitter recommends.

 

 

 

The 6.5s fcm higher than x100s, is that what you mean? 
 

 

[ProV1Killa]

1 hour ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Just guessing, but his 7 might be launching >21° and with like 7250 rpm.  That much launch and spin, 165 carry seems realistic, even with 120 ball speed or so

I would guess this is pretty close.  What we don't know is why launch is in that range.  That 7 iron is 32* so a good launch window would be 16* to 18* and spin should be lower, 6,000ish.  

 

I would be hesitant to start looking at new shafts until he gets the strike location sorted out.

[ProV1Killa]

1 hour ago, Bigjim1022 said:

I’ve considered X100s but worry it will be too much shaft.  

X100s are not as stout as people think.  Compared to LZ some players spin them more and some less depending on swing dynamics.  They definitely launch lower though.

 

I wouldn't start playing with shafts until you figured out where you are striking the ball on the face and how the over the top move is affecting delivery. This could be a simple flipping and too much dynamic loft issue.  When you say that you are hitting driver, fairway woods, and hybrids solid but have an issue with short irons I can take a guess at what is causing the issue, but a visit to a local swing instructor is the best bet.  

[llewol007]

If distance issues is your main culprit, it might be that you don’t know your actual distances when hitting with your irons. This to me was an issue I had. One thing I did was playing a 9 hole practice round and really getting a feeling of what swing gets my target yardage. I would hit a driver or iron off the tee just for practice purposes, the real practice happens when I get to 160 yards. I drop a ball or two and for me I take my 7 iron. From there I rehearse what length swing it takes for me to get that yardage. For point of reference, I don’t have a swing length more of where my hands are. With that being said, 160 for a 7 is hands to my ears as my top swing pause and transition to my downswing. 150 is hands at shoulders. I rarely swing full. From there you would establish that with at most 6 iron. For me my 5, 4, hybrid, 5 wood, 3 wood and driver all have hands right at my ears to designate the top of my swing. I never worry about where the club head is. Work on yardages from 7 on down to your Pw or GW. As far as Sw, I open up the face but always have my swing to my shoulder to get the yardages I want. Hope this helps.

[Bigjim1022]

2 minutes ago, ProV1Killa said:

X100s are not as stout as people think.  Compared to LZ some players spin them more and some less depending on swing dynamics.  They definitely launch lower though.

 

I wouldn't start playing with shafts until you figured out where you are striking the ball on the face and how the over the top move is affecting delivery. This could be a simple flipping and too much dynamic loft issue.  When you say that you are hitting driver, fairway woods, and hybrids solid but have an issue with short irons I can take a guess at what is causing the issue, but a visit to a local swing instructor is the best bet.  

This is probably what I need to do, I’ve had a few online lessons but nothing regular.  The flip has long been my bugaboo.  For whatever reason it’s not as bad with my driver but when I get shorter irons in my hands it’s much more likely to creep up on me. 

[ProV1Killa]

6 hours ago, Bigjim1022 said:

My irons are short compared to my driver/hybrids.  

Take this for what it's worth, as it is just an educated hunch based on a brief forum description of what is happening.  Flat shoulders are much more forgiving when hitting a driver or other long shafted club than they are a shorter shafted club.  Common string of problems they cause include lack of hand depth, trail shoulder has to move out rather than work under, a very steep delivery with shorter irons, lack of low point control, and eventually flipping as your brain takes over in desperation to get the club back to the ball in a somewhat square fashion.