AMG video on : setting the record straight on our golf swing analysis

[airjammer]

24 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Nah. Here's why:

 

 

Moving on…

 

 

Most people don't/shouldn't get anywhere near the end of what's "manageable" for the bulk of what's required in a golf swing. My left knee can move a lot; doesn't mean I want to use even 30% of its range of motion in the golf swing.

 

 

This seems to assume the goal of every YouTube video (on golf) is to get "drastically better."

 

I've had students go from beginners to breaking 90 and 80 taught strictly online. Is that "drastically better"? Oh, and they get my videos via YouTube. 😉 

 

 

 

Wow, dude. No. Emphatically.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CW6VmLPPeKO/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
 

Joseph Mayo started the conversation way before this post that I pasted as he calls all golf coaches “guessers”. I double dog dare you to take your opinion up with him🤣

 

[Nels55]

Front post, rear post, center post, under trail hand, side on trial hand, cover trail hand, steep plane, flat plane mid plane are all some differences that I feel are fairly significant among tour players.  I think that the differences are mostly related to how the players are built and how their brains work.  I like Mike Adams' idea that golfers should be measured to determine the best swing for that particular golfer.  Same with Dr. Wright and the Wright Balance system.  I don't know that either system is perfect but I think that both are on to something.  I do think that there is a lot left to be learned about what the best way to swing a golf club is for any particular individual is. 

 

Obviously GEARS and AMG and other practitioners of 3D data are advancing the knowledge of what actually happens in the golf swing.  One place where I disagree with AMG is in the takeaway that the teach.  When I was a member of AMG+ I learned a drill to get the club shaft parallel to the target line when it is parallel to the ground in the backswing.  This is I believe fairly common teaching but if you watch the following  Mike Adams / Terry Rowles video at the 2:00 minute mark you can see that this drill is not correct for golfers with a side on grip according to Mike and Terry:

 

Now it is possible that I was doing something wrong with the AMG drill but I don't think so...  It is also possible that Mike Adams is incorrect in his assertion that the shaft should be parallel to shoulders and effectively 'inside' if the shoulders turn.  The teaching in the epic speed gains video does seem to work well for me so I'm going with it!

 

 

[Fhbrook23]

3 hours ago, MPStrat said:

This is what I saw:

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzAa-HStPRF/?igshid=YjVjNjZkNmFjNg==

 

They intentionally edited it that way

Of course they did, that's how jokes normally work.  Did you intentionally forget to mention all the instances like these where both AMG and Michael Neff clearly said that the teaser clip the night before was meant as a spoof.  Sounds like the pot calling the kettle deceptive. 

 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Fhbrook23

[MonteScheinblum]

4 hours ago, GoTime said:

 

 

which vid is this?

 

[Hilts1969]

3 hours ago, MPStrat said:

Ya you’re right, they were very brave to hand pick questions that disagreed with them. 

They literally titled the video: “He has big problems with our videos” Trigger warning: setting the record straight

 

The truth was that he doesn’t have any problems with their videos. The whole thing was false clickbait. This isn’t the first time they’ve done that either.
 

Sorry you didn’t like hugely. I stand by what I said. 
 

 

 

Sure sure 

 

Cool story bro 

[JayMas]

2 hours ago, Fhbrook23 said:

Of course they did, that's how jokes normally work.  Did you intentionally forget to mention all the instances like these where both AMG and Michael Neff clearly said that the teaser clip the night before was meant as a spoof.  Sounds like the pot calling the kettle deceptive. 

 

 

I didn't see that, but yeah it tracks. Kind of obvious what they were doing even without that explanation. And clearly it worked on the people just waiting to say "I told you so about AMG!"

[Hilts1969]

6 hours ago, airjammer said:

Just watched the video and I thought it was an overall good video and bit more a of an advertisement for gears than anything. I think it wasn’t warranted and it wasn’t in good taste to single out an individual from our forum for what some people would conclude would be reasonable thoughts doesn’t mean they are correct but at least had some reasonable logic behind them. If AMG is lurking on here a simple DM discussion would have been classier imo. 
 

Markerless technology is going to be the way of the future for the masses because a couple degrees off here or there isn’t enough for the data to be thrown out for the average player imo. 
 

There was thing that stood out to me as odd…how do you do 200-300 online lessons a year and trash 2d line drawing teachers or online swing geeks that don’t agree with everything you say. If you say that’s not an accurate way to diagnose what’s really going on…how do you legitimately take someone’s money for a online lesson especially when they aren’t “cheap”? I guess you can say well since you can’t come and see us, we will give you our best guess. Just seems a bit off putting to do that after going so “hard” on the 2d guys knowing you analysis will most likely be wrong by your own logic. 

Maybe I’ll be a star of one of their future videos😂

 

 

There is a hierarchy in the best way to learn. Sometimes people have to take responsibility themselves especially us guys who can't afford to pay for the best coaches.

 

I understand that average means I don't have to hit a certain figure 

 

I understand gears is better than 2d, I understand 2d with a coach is better than 2d on my own

I understand that using a 2d camera is better than using nothing and just trying you tube tips. I understand swing your swing is nonsense.

 

You can't spoon feed everyone everything.

 

I don't know how some people get dressed in the morning.

 

They must pivot into their trousers with passive legs though. Coz someone told them to:-)

 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Hilts1969
Spelling

[iacas]

3 hours ago, JayMas said:

I didn't see that, but yeah it tracks. Kind of obvious what they were doing even without that explanation. And clearly it worked on the people just waiting to say "I told you so about AMG!"

 

If you have half a brain… I agree it's pretty obvious. Maybe I'm giving some here too much benefit of the doubt, though. Maybe they were genuinely "fooled" by the IG post. Even with the screenshot floating at the bottom of the video.

 

3 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

There is a hierarchy in the best way to learn. Sometimes people have to take responsibility themselves especially us guys who can't afford to pay for the best coaches.

 

I understand that average means I don't have to hit a certain figure 

 

I understand gears is better than 2d, I understand 2d with a coach is better than 2d on my own

I understand that using a 2d camera is better than using nothing and just trying you tube tips. I understand swing your swing is nonsense.

 

Yup.

[MPStrat]

23 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

If you have half a brain… I agree it's pretty obvious. Maybe I'm giving some here too much benefit of the doubt, though. Maybe they were genuinely "fooled" by the IG post. Even with the screenshot floating at the bottom of the video.

The video was clickbait. Many, including some content creators I very much enjoy use clickbait. I don’t think it’s cool to use clickbait. I think it is desperate and deceptive. It is the world we live in, unfortunately.

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

The video was clickbait.

 

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that. I think it's only clickbait if you're not willing to think for a second. Or look at the bottom of the video where the screenshot of the posts is sitting.

 

And, I also think it's telling that you're just asserting opinions about a preview trailler promotional thing instead of, I dunno, the HOUR of content and discussion in the actual video.

 

17 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

I don’t think it’s cool to use clickbait. I think it is desperate and deceptive. It is the world we live in, unfortunately.

 

Well, it wasn't clickbait in my world, because I thought about it for a second.

[MountainKing]

13 hours ago, MPStrat said:

I understand that thought process on success. There are similarities in pro swings.  The statement that 95% of tour pros do all of the same things is literally like claiming that the sky is purple. Rory and Cam Smith are doing some very different things to get back to the ball. It’s good to discuss those things. 

 

It's not tho, it can be proven through Gears and other 3d imagery, and you can spot the important similarities in 2D as well!

 

This entire discussion should be in the context of teaching golf.  Any good teacher isn't looking at the differences between Cam and Rory and teaching that, they're teaching the fundamentals that they both do alike (good setup, on plane backswing, good body\hip turn, proper weight transfer, arms drop, wrists move correctly etc).  Their swings work because of the basic things. Anything beyond that is noise, and complicating the teaching.  

[CSagan]

Isn't Golfarb actually the old RussC? I don't think he even plays golf. If not they seem to write exactly alike.

[MPStrat]

 

 

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that. I think it's only clickbait if you're not willing to think for a second. Or look at the bottom of the video where the screenshot of the posts is sitting.

 

And, I also think it's telling that you're just asserting opinions about a preview trailler promotional thing instead of, I dunno, the HOUR of content and discussion in the actual video.

 

 

Well, it wasn't clickbait in my world, because I thought about it for a second.

 

I’m asserting opinions because you keep badgering me on it lol. It’s click bait. I didn’t think that would be such a controversial take but apparently it is. Why not just call the video “we set the record straight with Michael Neff”? 
 

I thought the video itself was boring. I stated I enjoy Michael Neff. I agree with @airjammer that it mostly comes off as an ad for GEARS. 

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

It’s click bait.

 

Ooh ooh let me try: No it's not.

 

Gee, I like this way of stating opinions as if they're fact!

 

Again: I disagree.

 

4 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Why not just call the video “we set the record straight with Michael Neff”?

 

Why does the NFL spend a bunch of money on advertising?

 

I think everyone here gets it. You think it's clickbait. I think everyone here also gets that you don't seem to have noticed the comments they made on the post, the screenshot of the post at the bottom, or to have applied logic or critical thinking in arriving at the idea that "he" couldn't possibly be Michael Neff who disagreed with them… Cool.

Edited October 31, 2023 by iacas

[me05501]

Are guys who craft super long replies where they quote 10 different other posts completely oblivious to the fact that most readers just scroll past all that mess? 

[iacas]

Just now, me05501 said:

Are guys who craft super long replies where they quote 10 different other posts completely oblivious to the fact that most readers just scroll past all that mess? 

 

Some do, some don't. Do what you want, and I'll do the same.

[MPStrat]

 

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

You think it's clickbait. 

👍 

 

[Simpsonia]

I may regret wading into this fight, but I try to at least see both sides. I think both sides are generally are talking about the same things using a different language and really just talking past each other, and then one the other side doesn't understand, they get mad at each other. Same story for the previous AMG vs Milo arm drop thread. Everyone is talking about the same things but using a different language (feels). 

 

AMG is correct in representing the data they have gathered with GEARS, though can often make some generalizations that aren't necessarily always supported by the hard data limitations that GEARS can gather (shoulder rotation is one of those things that no 3D system has fully figured out yet, not even GEARS). Add in the fact that they can sometimes present these findings (arms lowering) as a black and white thing which can go counter to how many people need to "feel" things in the swing.

 

Like in the last thread, AMG presented the data about arms lowering, the whole Milo crowd and MPStrat disagree because they don't feel the arms lowering in their swings. And that's totally fine, people need to feel their own things, as long as they are getting to the correct places in the correct time. The problem is sometimes AMG makes it sound like if you aren't "feeling" the data they are presenting (actively lowering the arms rather than passively) then you're doing it wrong, which clearly rubs the crowd that feels leaving the arms up the wrong way. That doesn't change the fact that the arms do lower as the 3D data collected has shown. Just different feels on how to do the same damn thing. 

 

That just really brings home the fact that I'm sure all the experienced teachers have known for years, you need to figure out the particular language (feels) that each student needs to get the correct sequencing. Sometimes the feels a student needs to feel are the complete opposite of the feels that teacher needs. I think this is where both sides of the instruction debate have gotten lost in this whole Milo vs AMG thing is that both sides have kind of forgotten the fact that everyone needs to feel their own feels and they aren't necessarily wrong if their feel is different from the others. 

 

 

[Doodlebug87]

I put a few comments on AMG's previous video about tiger not dropping the pelvis / squatting and they were a bit defensive to be honest.

 

I really like AMG, I love Monte and recently I've been quite interested in how Elite Golf Schools teach which is almost a hybrid of Milo and Monte (although they lean more towards Milos methodology, they actively discuss the arms and the wrists firing). AMGs recent videos have been deliberately divisive in my opinion - they now are effectively saying you shouldn't be squatting and you shouldn't be actively shallowing. I made a point that lots of amateurs may need to feel these things in order to avoid going too far the other way ie EE or OTT, but they haven't responded. They were going to be dropping a vid relating to rib sway according to their insta but I wonder if the end result of the analysis was actually that some of Milos observations around rib sway were on point and they just let it slide instead, but this is conjecture on my part.

 

I do believe the future crop or tour players, rightly or wrongly, will exhibit some differences in their swings due to the rotational swing with lots of thoracic tilt being trendy right now and lots of the up and coming young players will lean towards the marketing and social media presence. Over time the standard deviation might change and AMG in 20 years might have other movements to talk about, who knows....

 

I guess my main point is that we can all take learnings from the myriad of pros out there and healthy discussion between them should be promoted, but at the moment it's all a bit school playground which is no good for anyone....

 

 

 

 

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

Like in the last thread, AMG presented the data about arms lowering, the whole Milo crowd and MPStrat disagree because they don't feel the arms lowering in their swings. And that's totally fine, people need to feel their own things, as long as they are getting to the correct places in the correct time.

 

I don't think that's an accurate description of that debate.

 

I think the two ends of the spectrum are something like:

• Trail arm widens, player is generally in less right side bend because they don't need to get the trail shoulder lower to the ground.
• Trail arm stays more flexed, player has to get the trail shoulder lower to the ground to get the club to the ground.

Golf swings exist across that spectrum, but those are almost the two end-points. You've got some Tour players who are farther to one side, and others who are farther to the other side.

 

I don't think that discussion was entirely about "feels." There are measurable differences in the rates at which golfers side bend, release trail elbow extension, etc.

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by iacas
"right" -> "trail"

[MPStrat]

18 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 

It's not tho, it can be proven through Gears and other 3d imagery, and you can spot the important similarities in 2D as well!

 

This entire discussion should be in the context of teaching golf.  Any good teacher isn't looking at the differences between Cam and Rory and teaching that, they're teaching the fundamentals that they both do alike (good setup, on plane backswing, good body\hip turn, proper weight transfer, arms drop, wrists move correctly etc).  Their swings work because of the basic things. Anything beyond that is noise, and complicating the teaching.  

Conveying information to the regular club golfer and knowing how a golf swing truly functions are two totally different things. As a teacher, you better know the difference between what Cam and Rory do and that it’s not similar and not just “noise” — as a student it’s not your job to know the difference, and it’s fine to say that they both live within a window of acceptability. 

[Fhbrook23]

20 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that. I think it's only clickbait if you're not willing to think for a second. Or look at the bottom of the video where the screenshot of the posts is sitting.

 

And, I also think it's telling that you're just asserting opinions about a preview trailler promotional thing instead of, I dunno, the HOUR of content and discussion in the actual video.

 

 

Well, it wasn't clickbait in my world, because I thought about it for a second.

There are clearly hard feelings since AMG demonstrated that DJ does indeed lower his left arm in the downswing.  Now it seems readers in every AMG-involved topic will forever be told how deceptive their spoofs are.  On the other hand, there's an odd level of admiration when others use deception, like Milo, as long as it's aimed at AMG. It seems like a convoluted justification process, but somehow he makes it work.

[Rdailey9108]

24 minutes ago, Doodlebug87 said:

I put a few comments on AMG's previous video about tiger not dropping the pelvis / squatting and they were a bit defensive to be honest.

 

I really like AMG, I love Monte and recently I've been quite interested in how Elite Golf Schools teach which is almost a hybrid of Milo and Monte (although they lean more towards Milos methodology, they actively discuss the arms and the wrists firing). AMGs recent videos have been deliberately divisive in my opinion - they now are effectively saying you shouldn't be squatting and you shouldn't be actively shallowing. I made a point that lots of amateurs may need to feel these things in order to avoid going too far the other way ie EE or OTT, but they haven't responded. They were going to be dropping a vid relating to rib sway according to their insta but I wonder if the end result of the analysis was actually that some of Milos observations around rib sway were on point and they just let it slide instead, but this is conjecture on my part.

 

I do believe the future crop or tour players, rightly or wrongly, will exhibit some differences in their swings due to the rotational swing with lots of thoracic tilt being trendy right now and lots of the up and coming young players will lean towards the marketing and social media presence. Over time the standard deviation might change and AMG in 20 years might have other movements to talk about, who knows....

 

I guess my main point is that we can all take learnings from the myriad of pros out there and healthy discussion between them should be promoted, but at the moment it's all a bit school playground which is no good for anyone....

 

 

 

 

Wait were you the crazy guy who tried to say Tiger couldn't hit a 6 iron over 180 yards? We've seen him hit a pitching wedge 170 yards out of the rough before. 

[jonsnow]

 

[Simpsonia]

16 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

I don't think that's an accurate description of that debate.

 

I think the two ends of the spectrum are something like:

• Trail arm widens, player is generally in less right side bend because they don't need to get the trail shoulder lower to the ground.
• Trail arm stays more flexed, player has to get the trail shoulder lower to the ground to get the club to the ground.

Golf swings exist across that spectrum, but those are almost the two end-points. You've got some Tour players who are farther to one side, and others who are farther to the other side.

 

I don't think that discussion was entirely about "feels." There are measurable differences in the rates at which golfers side bend, release trail elbow extension, etc.

 

 

I think we're generally in agreement there. What I maybe didn't expand upon when I was referring to "feels", maybe a more accurate term would "frame of reference". I feel like the AMG side is measuring arm lowering at a more absolute level, ie the frame of reference is the ground or something more 'static' in relation to the ground like the lumbar spine and/or hips. The Milo crowd feels their frame of reference entirely as the upper thoracic spine/rib-cage. Viewing arm lowering with that as a frame of reference, the amount or degrees of arm lowering is much minimized due to the side-bend, so that many who are in that camp don't "feel" arm lowering at all. This is especially apparent when their ideal model swings in 3D are the guys like DJ/Hovland who have a higher amount of thoracic side-bend. Then even when viewing the same data in gears they are viewing it from their own respective frames of reference so can be talking about the same thing, but still talking past each other. 

[Doodlebug87]

2 minutes ago, Rdailey9108 said:

Wait were you the crazy guy who tried to say Tiger couldn't hit a 6 iron over 180 yards? We've seen him hit a pitching wedge 170 yards out of the rough before. 

Hahaha no that definitely wasn't me! That guy is definitely a bit of a troll.... 

[Albatross Dreamer]

1 hour ago, MountainKing said:

 

It's not tho, it can be proven through Gears and other 3d imagery, and you can spot the important similarities in 2D as well!

 

This entire discussion should be in the context of teaching golf.  Any good teacher isn't looking at the differences between Cam and Rory and teaching that, they're teaching the fundamentals that they both do alike (good setup, on plane backswing, good body\hip turn, proper weight transfer, arms drop, wrists move correctly etc).  Their swings work because of the basic things. Anything beyond that is noise, and complicating the teaching.  

I would disagree with that.  A good teacher would start with the fundamentals, then make little tweaks to fit that golfer. A good teacher would know the cause and effect of each move and how to best realize them together to fit that specific golfer. In a world of infinite combinations of body dimensions, strengths, ROM, injury history, so on a good teacher has to be able to adapt off the fundamentals. If you want to argue that'd make a teacher "great" instead of "good" and the below is "good" then fine

 

A teacher that only teaches the fundamentals has a very definite ceiling on how far they're going to be able to take their clients. Which for your regular weekend warrior may or may not be totally ok.

[Cliffy2020]

Video was fantastic.  The fact they created a whole video highlighting a post here was wildly entertaining.  Of course @golfarb1 post was used because it was a well written, organized summary of many others’ critical comments they were able to use as a blueprint for their retort.

[CasualLie]

21 hours ago, airjammer said:

I’ve pointed out a couple of times that this forum participants should get a kickback for helping digital creators/golf coaches come up with their next subject to create a video or post. Over the years we’ve had the likes if Brian Manzella, Dana Dalhquist and Jeff Smith post on this forum and they are fairly active on social media so not telling how many more are lurking. 

 

Or another way of looking at it is without social media golf, there are some posters here who would have only 10% of their post count.  Not that if would necessarily be a bad thing.  😉

[Zitlow]

I get it now, 3D golf swing analysis is for the elites and 2D is for the peasants.