Time to move on from USGA and R&A?

[PuffyC]

The messaging seems all over the place here, almost like there are politicians involved or something. They say they had no choice but to take this drastic measure so they can "protect the game" but then at the same time say the distance loss is no big deal. Yeah, most ams won't be harmed quite as much as most pros but you can't have it both ways. 

[MtlJeff]

24 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I don't see that at all.  They did the best they could with this rule change to only effect the very few players at the top end of the spectrum for clubhead / ball speed.  It will have no effect on the average golfer who shoots over 100.  It's on about the same level as the change in how to drop the ball.  Guys got all bent out of shape about the ruling bodies dumb rule change until dropping from knee level became the norm.  Nobody complains about how to drop the ball now and a year after the ball speed rule change goes into effect the change will be forgotten and everyone will be bitching about something else.

 

"no effect" is your opinion not a fact. They have said it will affect everyone proportionally, someone driving it 250 carry now would likely be 236-238~ with the new ball. Considering in 30 years handicaps have dropped from 16 to 14.5 on average and the USGA's last major campaign, as was pointed out, was teeing it forward....the message that they needed to do this to save golf courses from obsolescence seems pretty contradictory--unless only considering the pro game.

 

But if they are only considering the pro game....the PGA tour owns 30+ of their own courses. Let them worry about the costs of maintenance. Last i checked they had some wealthy investors coming aboard

[Nels55]

39 minutes ago, MtlJeff said:

 

"no effect" is your opinion not a fact. They have said it will affect everyone proportionally, someone driving it 250 carry now would likely be 236-238~ with the new ball. Considering in 30 years handicaps have dropped from 16 to 14.5 on average and the USGA's last major campaign, as was pointed out, was teeing it forward....the message that they needed to do this to save golf courses from obsolescence seems pretty contradictory--unless only considering the pro game.

 

But if they are only considering the pro game....the PGA tour owns 30+ of their own courses. Let them worry about the costs of maintenance. Last i checked they had some wealthy investors coming aboard

No effect on casual golfers after a year is a fact.  If they took out the current ball restrictions and let the manufacturers go on an ball speed race it would have the same effect on casual golfers.  None.  My point is that once everyone gets used to the change it doesn't matter anymore.  The guys who should be upset are golfers with hi clubhead speed and I believe that you may be one of those guys?  

[MtlJeff]

4 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

No effect on casual golfers after a year is a fact.  If they took out the current ball restrictions and let the manufacturers go on an ball speed race it would have the same effect on casual golfers.  None.  My point is that once everyone gets used to the change it doesn't matter anymore.  The guys who should be upset are golfers with hi clubhead speed and I believe that you may be one of those guys?  

 

Depends on your definition of "high" lol....i'm about 108-109. To some that's high, to others maybe not. I feel here my SS will impress no one haha

 

Either way , i'm not a huge fan of the decision but that's just me. If your opinion is different i respect that

[Nels55]

32 minutes ago, MtlJeff said:

 

Depends on your definition of "high" lol....i'm about 108-109. To some that's high, to others maybe not. I feel here my SS will impress no one haha

 

Either way , i'm not a huge fan of the decision but that's just me. If your opinion is different i respect that

You got me beat on clubhead speed pretty good but you are definitely low end on wrx.  You will certainly have to adjust to the new ball a bit but I doubt that it will hurt much.

I have no problem with your not being a fan of the rollback and in the end maybe you will be correct and the consensus will be that it was a bad idea.  I don't think so but you never know.  I would just as soon that they left things as they are but I understand why they are doing what they are doing.  That said I really don't think that they are going far enough and if they are going to take action then they should probably take the ball back to where tour pros would be averaging around 280 yards.  There would be a incredible amount of complaining but within 5 years nobody would care.

[cardia10]

20 hours ago, Nels55 said:

How could any ball be 'ill fitting' if they are all the same?  From personal experience I can tell you that I score better with chrome soft ball then I do with a topflight.  There is a huge difference in spin and trajectory on iron and wedge shots even for a hack like myself.  If I hit a full sandwedge on my sim setup with a surlyn ball the ball will jump and hit the ceiling while a urethane ball will launch lower with more spin right into the screen.  They are not close to the same.

Look at the number of players playing a ProV. That is your answer. They don’t play it because they have been fitted or they would have likely found 10 balls perform equally for them at a lower cost. Look at any reliable independent testing and the performance of premium balls is within 3 yards in distance. 

[Nels55]

On 12/8/2023 at 6:55 AM, dugue4 said:

I see your point, and my comment was semi-facetious, but no one would be stopping the equipment companies from selling the tour spec wood drivers to amateurs.  

I think that the size and construction of the wood head would have to be limited also.  I used to put together, re-shaft, refinish and so on wood headed drivers.  There was a lot of room for improvement in the design and if they had to the OEMs could make a fairly hollow wood headed driver with the weight distributed towards the toe and heel with some sort of super insert in the face.  Such a club would probably perform close to a modern driver in the right hands.  Something like corking a wood bat I suppose.  

[Nels55]

6 hours ago, cardia10 said:

Look at the number of players playing a ProV. That is your answer. They don’t play it because they have been fitted or they would have likely found 10 balls perform equally for them at a lower cost. Look at any reliable independent testing and the performance of premium balls is within 3 yards in distance. 

You are a long ways from where you started saying that all balls are the same but okay...  ProV1X?  ProV1?  ProV1 left dash?  They do fit premium balls for sure.  Those are not all the same.  Tell me what pro is playing a surlyn covered ball?  All the manufacturers make similar high end balls and a pro can play the correct ball from the lineup of each one depending on who pays the most but they ain't all the same.

[GHIN n Juice]

I was talking to a friend of mine who’s in close contact with several of the biggest ball manufactures and it sounds like their R&D departments think they can work within the proposed ball change rules to negate some of the rollback.  After talking to him I realized that 3-6 years is so much time to engineers who do this stuff all day everyday.  Seems these guys already have ideas that just need to be tested and refined over the next few years.  I’m crossing my fingers that science wins again. 

[Cart_Path_Critic]

Faster swing speeds is a skillset that should be rewarded not penalized. Chopping distance off the long hitters just kills it for everyone. We've all heard it said "Drive for show, putt for dough". Well guess what, here's a newsflash- you're in SHOWBUSINESS, the fans are paying to see a SHOW so we want to see the big drives and guys driving the greens on short par-4's. Yes, it wasn't how the course was designed and courses can't keep moving tee boxes back, that's not a big deal. Let the big dog eat and hammer away.

[cardia10]

3 hours ago, Cart_Path_Critic said:

Faster swing speeds is a skillset that should be rewarded not penalized. Chopping distance off the long hitters just kills it for everyone. We've all heard it said "Drive for show, putt for dough". Well guess what, here's a newsflash- you're in SHOWBUSINESS, the fans are paying to see a SHOW so we want to see the big drives and guys driving the greens on short par-4's. Yes, it wasn't how the course was designed and courses can't keep moving tee boxes back, that's not a big deal. Let the big dog eat and hammer away.

You are spot on. They attack distance because not everyone can do it. Anyone can chip and putt with enough practice, but it is so easy for them to punish the people that figure out to hit it the furthest. It is so short sighted and will end up the groove rule and engineering and science and players working harder will win out. This is the USGA's history and until the 99% of people speak up and say the USGA doesn't really even matter, they will keep creating solutions in search of problems.

[BHI 99]

This isn’t the first time it’s been done, right? I really don’t get the fuss except that people like to fuss. Augusta spent $25M on one hole, IIRC. 
 

[st1800e]

On 12/10/2023 at 10:37 AM, cardia10 said:

Anyone can chip and putt with enough practice,

Not some golfers I know.  🤔

[wedge1]

    I've read this debate for so many years now...IMHO, rolling back the ball isn't about penalizing the people who have worked to have faster swing speeds...it's about keeping the sport within the challenges of the more-finitely constrained courses.   The faster swing speed players will still be longer than the others and will still enjoy the same advantage from that superiority compared to their competitor.  I don't perceive the scores at majors having changed all that much...maybe courses have adjusted to keep up, or maybe the heart of the pro "score" (putting) is still what it is.  Roll the ball back and be done with it...people hit the hardest by that are the MFG's of clubs who will need a new set of gimmicks to try and sell the annual X-14RocketStealthParaT270MPMav set of clubs.

 

     If you want to see where equipment has truly ruined a sport, look at tennis.  As a former pro tennis player, the game today is a shell of what it was prior to the string modifications.  The spin the modern strings generate enables players to wail at the ball with more western grips and know the ball will come back down in the court.  It has all but eliminated the server an volley player and majority of net play all together (other than "smash and charge" to the corner and run in to put the ball away).  The result is an entirely two-dimensional game of only baseline players ...like ping pong standing on the table.  To see a perfect example of this, check the grass courts at Wimbledon...the baselines are worn out and front court pristine.  It was always that both were equally worn.  The impact of this change is profound...it has changed the way people hold the rackets, the strokes they use,  and the game they employ.  If they tried to roll back the strings, it would be a massive change to an entire generation who developed their entire game around the gear.  Consequently, the string changes have had no impact on amateur "enjoyment" of the game.  If anything, it has negatively impacted amateur participation.  According the USTA "play" numbers...tennis continues to decline in popularity and stuff like pickeball continues to rise as replacement.  The majority of amateur tennis play is doubles...not singles.  Doubles necessitates being at the net to put the ball away past the other player at the net...it would be easy to see the impact of even every-day club amateurbeing able to drive more balls low at a net player undermining the core doubles premise of being at the net...making the game more difficult for the amateur.  

 

[platgof]

On 12/3/2023 at 9:17 PM, tatertot said:

Maybe pickleball is more your speed?

Was that really necessary? Have any more brilliant statements you can enlighten us with?

[platgof]

On 12/5/2023 at 5:43 PM, Pepperturbo said:

I didn't agree with the groove ruling, yet adapted, as did most others.  And, as it is, not likely to agree with USGA or R&A on new ball rulings.  Even so, I am not someone who believes the only option left is to dismantle both organizations, and start over; that's lunacy.   But if someone believes that sort of thinking, maybe it's time for that person to move on or even leave golf.   

 

The only way things change is for regular people to move up in the pecking order, to perhaps be part of change.  Only for that to happen, those people need to bring forth constructive ideas, as opposed to fatalist remarks. 

Why should they leave golf? Is the PGA the end of all things golf? Absurd!

[platgof]

This rule will apply to pros and top amateurs, just like the 48" rule on drivers. Your local club has the right to modify rules, so that will happen at many courses, plus this will not affect most players for a long time. Just how many of these awesome golf balls do you think they will sell to amateurs. I am going to preorder now, not!

[BHI 99]

R&A is pretty much golf as we know it and not going anywhere. Nor should it.   Whatever is decided to happen to the ball is going to happen. I guess it will be ego shattering to have to hit an extra club? 
 

The horror. 

[st1800e]

12 minutes ago, platgof said:

This rule will apply to pros and top amateurs, just like the 48" rule on drivers.

Incorrect.  The new rule as recently announced will apply to everyone, not the MLR for elite competitions-that proposal was abandoned,    

14 minutes ago, platgof said:

Your local club has the right to modify rules

No, they can’t modify rules. They can institute Model Local Rules, as permitted in the ROG, but that doesn’t apply to the latest, new ball rule. 

[platgof]

22 minutes ago, st1800e said:

Incorrect.  The new rule as recently announced will apply to everyone, not the MLR for elite competitions-that proposal was abandoned,    

No, they can’t modify rules. They can institute Model Local Rules, as permitted in the ROG, but that doesn’t apply to the latest, new ball rule. 

This rule will be modified before going into effect.

 

[platgof]

The golf ball manufacturers are wanting the "golf ball for all" because of sales. that will backfire and the rule will be changed. 

[st1800e]

15 minutes ago, platgof said:

This rule will be modified before going into effect.

 

Ok, not a fact, as you implied.  Your prediction , thanks for clarifying.  

[nsxguy]

49 minutes ago, platgof said:

This rule will be modified before going into effect.

 

 

45 minutes ago, platgof said:

The golf ball manufacturers are wanting the "golf ball for all" because of sales. that will backfire and the rule will be changed. 

 

[MtlJeff]

1 hour ago, st1800e said:

Incorrect.  The new rule as recently announced will apply to everyone, not the MLR for elite competitions-that proposal was abandoned,    

No, they can’t modify rules. They can institute Model Local Rules, as permitted in the ROG, but that doesn’t apply to the latest, new ball rule. 

 

I don't believe any am tournaments here enforce the groove rule, for example. It's possible the Canadian AM does, but local tournaments don't to the best of my knowledge. At the very least i know people who have played in some with non-conforming clubs (Eye2) .

 

I'm not sure they specifically have a local rule, i think they just don't check and dont care

 

I think with the ball it will all come down to the market research of the vendors. If Titleist thinks they can sell a bunch of the "current" ball, maybe they keep making it and then this whole thing could fall apart if ams just say screw it to the USGA

 

Also, if either LIV or PGA says they will not adopt the new rule, that is another major thing. 

 

The USGA's only real power is people listening to them. They only run 2-3 large tournaments. 

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

On 12/10/2023 at 6:41 AM, Cart_Path_Critic said:

Faster swing speeds is a skillset that should be rewarded not penalized. Chopping distance off the long hitters just kills it for everyone. We've all heard it said "Drive for show, putt for dough". Well guess what, here's a newsflash- you're in SHOWBUSINESS, the fans are paying to see a SHOW so we want to see the big drives and guys driving the greens on short par-4's. Yes, it wasn't how the course was designed and courses can't keep moving tee boxes back, that's not a big deal. Let the big dog eat and hammer away.

if MLB had allowed the introduction of bat "technology" into the game guys in the show would be hitting 127 homeruns a year averaging 550 feet.

 

this "show" in golf as you call it is a ruse, a totally contrived scenario being provided by the equipment. it was never in the best interest of golf having the equipment turn into an arms race. it was a complete mistake that started with the introduction of titanium woods. at this point I'm not advocating imploding the whole thing, but it's time for the game to go down a subtle new path, a new direction.

[BHI 99]

11 minutes ago, Kenny Lee Puckett said:

if MLB had allowed the introduction of bat "technology" into the game guys in the show would be hitting 127 homeruns a year averaging 550 feet.

 

this "show" in golf as you call it is a ruse, a totally contrived scenario being provided by the equipment. it was never in the best interest of golf having the equipment turn into an arms race. it was a complete mistake that started with the introduction of titanium woods. at this point I'm not advocating imploding the whole thing, but it's time for the game to go down a subtle new path, a new direction.

You ain’t wrong. Distance sells, so sell them distance. For some it’s all they can understand about golf. 

[glm]

If Jack was hitting 300 yard drives back in the day with his equipment like some say he was I don't see what everyone is getting there panties in a wad over.  JMO

[kiwh]

When I started playing golf, they were just logos on a sign to me… still are. 

If you’re not playing competitively, play what makes you happy. 
 

If you are playing competitively, welcome to world of idiot leadership. You should hear the stuff my bosses say!

[platgof]

What happens if LIV doesn't buy into this? Then the PGA is being out driven by 30 yards per drive, just asking! Just maybe the manufacturers could develop a golf ball that only penalizes drives over 300 yards then I am all in, but I already suffer badly from worn out shoulders and don't need shorter distances. I need to invest into some black market golf ball companies in China.

[BHI 99]

Just do like tires in Formula 1 and be done with. TOUR SPEC BALL. Average Joe will trip all over himself trying to get them for internet golfer cred. 
 

Or don’t. Or whatever. Who gives a crap, it’s so far down the road anyway.