Right Side Bend V arms lowering in transition

[michaeld_2020]

Hi All,

 

I am a big fan of Monte + AMG's approach.

 

I have been trying to drop my arms, or lower my hands in transition before my torso turns. I have the typical motion that Monte always describes that my hands trail my pivot, and I end up with the ballerina move as he describes it.

 

Often on video, when I try to accelerate my arms, my body instictivly adds right side bend and then I end up hitting these huge low hooks.

 

Has anyone ever overcome this?

 

Accelerating the arms has to be one of the hardest motor patterns to correct in amateur golfers.

[MonteScheinblum]

10 minutes ago, michaeld_2020 said:

Hi All,

 

I am a big fan of Monte + AMG's approach.

 

I have been trying to drop my arms, or lower my hands in transition before my torso turns. I have the typical motion that Monte always describes that my hands trail my pivot, and I end up with the ballerina move as he describes it.

 

Often on video, when I try to accelerate my arms, my body instictivly adds right side bend and then I end up hitting these huge low hooks.

 

Has anyone ever overcome this?

 

Accelerating the arms has to be one of the hardest motor patterns to correct in amateur golfers.

You want right bend impact.

 

What you’re describing is early right bend.

 

Staying in left tilt and/or, keeping the left shoulder down longer is what helps most people get passsed this issue.

 

edit

 

earlier shift left could be part of the equation too

Edited December 30, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[iacas]

14 minutes ago, michaeld_2020 said:

Often on video, when I try to accelerate my arms, my body instictivly adds right side bend and then I end up hitting these huge low hooks.

 

To add on to what @MonteScheinblum said… the issue may be that you're trying to "lower your arms" and adding RSB early is a way to do it, and that you may really, really, really need to feel the ARMS doing the motion, using the muscles in the arms and shoulder girdle, to lower your arms.

 

I call it "throwing" and I sometimes have to get people to do it REALLY aggressively.

 

Try to stand on a mat and literally fire the arms while you stay still with the rest of your body. You're literally going to try to stay 90° closed and throw your arms away from your body with speed so the clubhead hits the ground somewhere behind the ball. Record that swing. (People are amazed at how often they hit the ball, and often hit it well, but that's not the point — if you do this as I've described you'll probably still turn some, but you should hit the ground about a foot or two behind the ball, if you hit the ground at all).

 

P.S. In a real golf swing on a golf course you're not going to actually move your arms first before you begin turning, or before your lower body does something. But it may have to feel like your arms go first, and go FAST, to do this right.

[getitdaily]

You can bring the arms down and still have the right hip fire at the ball. Since you talk about accelerating the arms, I'm willing to bet you pull the arms down too fast, too hard, and have to fire the hips to make room for the hands and arms. 

 

This is one of the reasons I'm not a fan of "accelerate" the arms if someone has overactive hips. Accelerate the arms can easily lead to a rushed transition and everything firing early.

 

Is your early torso turn really a result of an early hip turn that pulls your torso with it? 

Edited December 30, 2023 by getitdaily

[MPStrat]

7 minutes ago, michaeld_2020 said:

Hi All,

 

I am a big fan of Monte + AMG's approach.

 

I have been trying to drop my arms, or lower my hands in transition before my torso turns. I have the typical motion that Monte always describes that my hands trail my pivot, and I end up with the ballerina move as he describes it.

 

Often on video, when I try to accelerate my arms, my body instictivly adds right side bend and then I end up hitting these huge low hooks.

 

Has anyone ever overcome this?

 

Accelerating the arms has to be one of the hardest motor patterns to correct in amateur golfers.

 

First, check the backswing. If the arms get too far “behind” in the backswing it’s exponentially more difficult to correct that later in the swing. 

There are different interpretations of side bend but if you do it correctly, right side bend actually helps get the arms more “in front” particularly the trail arm. Early upper body “hang back” is the type of side bending that can cause issues. Below are some examples of the difference. 

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C1VTqnmOF1p/?igsh=MTRoOW9yOTk5amdqYg==
 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C1XmfMEPZ47/?igsh=ZW5peHRneTE5anpn

 

What also gets lost sometimes is that arms too far behind in the sequence is a matchup for poor body movements. Meaning that some are trying to fix this problem and making things worse by doing drills to catch up the arms without addressing why they are behind in the first place. 

[absoludicrous]

[Hidraw]

My own solution is firing the pelvis forward while keeping the upperbody passive. 

Analogy to a car can be illustrative, I step on the accelerator and then followed by step on the brake. 

Imaging what happens to the passenger - falling backward during acceleration and then lurking forward during braking. 

So when the arms and club (the passenger) is above the pelvis, you want to fire the pelvis forward and when the arms and club is below the pelvis you want to brake the forward motion of the pelvis.  My firing can be intentional but the braking is subconcious.  

This is similar to how we twirl a stone at the end of a string or how we perform hula hoop with rocking motion.

Once the pelvis has been positioned so as the lumbar spine is appropriately situated in front of the ball on the target side, we can perform the rotation around the spine aggressively.
 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Hidraw
grammar and spelling

[tthomasgolfer605]

In any athletic movement, the hands are always last. I think people need to work on their pivots more than 'accelerating' the arms. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

2 hours ago, michaeld_2020 said:

Hi All,

 

I am a big fan of Monte + AMG's approach.

 

I have been trying to drop my arms, or lower my hands in transition before my torso turns. I have the typical motion that Monte always describes that my hands trail my pivot, and I end up with the ballerina move as he describes it.

 

Often on video, when I try to accelerate my arms, my body instictivly adds right side bend and then I end up hitting these huge low hooks.

 

Has anyone ever overcome this?

 

Accelerating the arms has to be one of the hardest motor patterns to correct in amateur golfers.

That's because you have to do it with the whole body. Feet, knees, hips, shoulders and the hands whip the club through. I think average golfers have a hard time with two things. 1. Seeing straight lines. (Thinking the club must be on the target line way too early rather than an arc in the downswing. The only time the club is on the target line is at impact). 2. Not understanding the shoulders must turn on a tilted plane rather than level to the ground. 

[iacas]

13 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

In any athletic movement, the hands are always last. I think people need to work on their pivots more than 'accelerating' the arms. 

 

And what do you do when their arms are slow and their pivot is fine… When they swing down with "passive arms" that get dragged behind their body (pivots)?

 

13 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

 

Hogan didn't look like the image on the right in his actual swing.

[tthomasgolfer605]

9 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

And what do you do when their arms are slow and their pivot is fine… When they swing down with "passive arms" that get dragged behind their body (pivots)?

 

 

Hogan didn't look like the image on the right in his actual swing.

I never said the arms should be passive. The left arm should be accelerated by the left shoulder with the rest of the body supporting that action. Using the proper shoulder plane of course. Some are screwed from the get go by turning too flat because the brain is trying to keep them balanced with the horizon. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

21 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

 

 

Hogan didn't look like the image on the right in his actual swing.

He's just showing the sequence from a more upright posture. 

[fjk]

2 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

You want right bend impact.

 

What you’re describing is early right bend.

 

Staying in left tilt and/or, keeping the left shoulder down longer is what helps most people get passsed this issue.

 

edit

 

earlier shift left could be part of the equation too

Took me many years to realize just this. I have to feel left shoulder down longer to keep the shoulders from tilting early and actually staying on circle. 
 

helps w my fat shots too. And it helps me keep the face more square or keep it from opening on the early DS as much. 

[Acooke2434]

Watch that AMG SHALLOWING video... wow! 😁

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

The left arm should be accelerated by the left shoulder with the rest of the body supporting that action. 

Sounds a lot like passive arms to me. The left shoulder doesn’t do all that you need to do with the arms in the downswing.

 

9 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

He's just showing the sequence from a more upright posture. 

No, that’s not it.

[tthomasgolfer605]

37 minutes ago, iacas said:

Sounds a lot like passive arms to me. The left shoulder doesn’t do all that you need to do with the arms in the downswing.

 

No, that’s not it.

Have you ever sought therapy for your self-esteem issues? I highly recommend it. Please add me to your ignore list. 

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Have you ever sought therapy for your self-esteem issues? I highly recommend it.

IMO lots of golfers need to learn to use their arms more actively.

 

I post about the topic, trying to take about golf. You post about me. It isn’t my self esteem that’s at issue here. 🤣

Edited December 30, 2023 by iacas

[Doodlebug87]

The arms must lower and nobody teaches this better than Monte. Having spent quite some time studying Elite Golf recently the missing component I had was how the shoulders and torso come along for the ride - rather than right side bend, focusing on right bend of the ribs (ie thoracic bend) while retracting the right scap has really brought together everything for me. Think of it as paddling a kayak backwards. Not saying it will work for you too, but my pivot wasn't reacting to my arms and therefore I had to incorporate some active movement to pair with my arm and wrist movement.

[Golfbeat]

 

 

[Nard_S]

The reason there's so much push back on faster arms is because everything else has to be closer to "correct" to see the benefit. Won't work with faulty action of joint pairs elsewhere. The "drop hands " is a just a compensation. I'm a believer but if my hips or shift, or rhythm or body angles go too wrong it won't work. Requires bigger more holistic approach of tweaks. It can be complex to get simpler. 

[Zitlow]

13 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

In any athletic movement, the hands are always last. I think people need to work on their pivots more than 'accelerating' the arms. 

 

In old school takeaway the clubhead was the last thing to move not the first thing.

 

[Nels55]

16 hours ago, iacas said:

No, that’s not it.

Sigh, this kind of condescending sort of post makes people angry.  Why not just explain what you mean and maybe post some pictures?

[Hidraw]

19 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

I never said the arms should be passive. The left arm should be accelerated by the left shoulder with the rest of the body supporting that action. Using the proper shoulder plane of course. Some are screwed from the get go by turning too flat because the brain is trying to keep them balanced with the horizon. 

Passive arms?  The left arm should be passive but stretched, it is the lead-side stretch from the lead hip to the hands. 
The motion of the lead shoulder is NOT just simply under the influence of the rotation AROUND the spine.  Under the lead-side stretch, the motion of the lead hip also accelerates the motion of the lead shoulder and hence the lead arm, especially the lead-hip bump during transition.

So, there are two axes of rotations going through C7.  One is obviously the neck.  The other axis is perpendicular to the neck for the pelvis to swing around like a pendulum.  The motion of the lead shoulder and hence the lead arm is under the influence of both rotations.

 

[Hidraw]

20 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

In any athletic movement, the hands are always last. I think people need to work on their pivots more than 'accelerating' the arms. 

That is the preparation for the preconditions before the aggressive rotation of the pivot.  Firstly, the lumbar spine in front of the ball on the target side.  Secondly, the trail arm is externally rotated with the trail forearm about perpendicular to the spine.

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Sigh, this kind of condescending sort of post makes people angry.  Why not just explain what you mean and maybe post some pictures?

 

It's the opposite of condescending (more later). And… it's plain text. If you add tone to it, that's on you. Second, I already explained what I meant:

 

20 hours ago, iacas said:

Hogan didn't look like the image on the right in his actual swing.

 

Does someone really need a picture to know that Hogan wasn't remotely in this position in his golf swing?

 

 

Hogan's hips weren't anywhere near that open while his hands were anywhere near that high. I don't know if I could name anybody good who is like the Hogan picture on the left.

 

I think it's actually more talking down to y'all if I were to assume that y'all don't know that, and to explain it with pictures and to post elaborate, over-explained, over-everything responses. I assume that y'all have some knowledge (because you do), and that if I say "Hogan doesn't look anything like that in his actual swing" that you know what I'm saying. Because you know that Hogan didn't actually look like the image on the left. (Plus, that would take a heck of a lot more time, and it was late when I wrote that up.)

 

So, again, when someone says "He's just showing the sequence from a more upright posture." I think it's reasonable to say "no, that's not it." It's not. If Hogan stood "more upright" in the image on the right, it still wouldn't look anything like the image on the left, for a bunch of small reasons, but easily two very obvious ones:

 

• His left arm wouldn't be nearly as far across his chest (the right elbow nowhere near as far below the left, etc.).
• His hips wouldn't be so "open" or whatever word you want to use there to describe the orientation of his pelvis.

 

8 hours ago, Nard_S said:

The reason there's so much push back on faster arms is because everything else has to be closer to "correct" to see the benefit. Won't work with faulty action of joint pairs elsewhere. The "drop hands " is a just a compensation. I'm a believer but if my hips or shift, or rhythm or body angles go too wrong it won't work. Requires bigger more holistic approach of tweaks. It can be complex to get simpler. 

 

So… "if something else is wrong, it won't work"? Can't you say that about almost anything? If something is faulty, anywhere, then the other parts done correctly won't work. Right?

 

I think there's "push-back" because a lot of people think the arms are truly passive. Or some people feel like they're passive, and so it's an old "feel vs. real" argument again.

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by iacas

[Valtiel]

23 hours ago, absoludicrous said:

Prophetic. 😆

[Nard_S]

50 minutes ago, iacas said:

So… "if something else is wrong, it won't work"? Can't you say that about almost anything? If something is faulty, anywhere, then the other parts done correctly won't work. Right?

 

I think there's "push-back" because a lot of people think the arms are truly passive. Or some people feel like they're passive, and so it's an old "feel vs. real" argument again.

Yeah, that's not my message..."don't do this without all else perfect" ....I stated that there's more involved and if that is not also addressed THEN it won't work consistently....you'll give up...if that's egregious or objectionable........whatever.

 

You can get away with much more slop of swing with the passive arms, there's simply more tenths of time to noodle the garbage. To move the out of position to position. Other way, every other aspect of swing has to lean in and be ready in order to fire hard, to hit peak speed much sooner than what most intuitively believe. 

 

I don't disagree with your last statement, but my take is folks take "sequencing" to logical extreme and believe the multiplier of power runs sequentially all the way to impact. I used to see it that way. And in better swings it really doesn't work like that. Same sequencing but altered peaks of amplitude happen. Peak hand speed nearer to trail leg than impact. "4:30"" Not so much a linear ramp up, that momentum drives pivot momentum too which cuts against "sequencing" mindset. 

 

 

[dminn23]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

 

It's the opposite of condescending (more later). And… it's plain text. If you add tone to it, that's on you. Second, I already explained what I meant:

 

 

Does someone really need a picture to know that Hogan wasn't remotely in this position in his golf swing?

 

 

Hogan's hips weren't anywhere near that open while his hands were anywhere near that high. I don't know if I could name anybody good who is like the Hogan picture on the left.

 

I think it's actually more talking down to y'all if I were to assume that y'all don't know that, and to explain it with pictures and to post elaborate, over-explained, over-everything responses. I assume that y'all have some knowledge (because you do), and that if I say "Hogan doesn't look anything like that in his actual swing" that you know what I'm saying. Because you know that Hogan didn't actually look like the image on the left. (Plus, that would take a heck of a lot more time, and it was late when I wrote that up.)

 

So, again, when someone says "He's just showing the sequence from a more upright posture." I think it's reasonable to say "no, that's not it." It's not. If Hogan stood "more upright" in the image on the right, it still wouldn't look anything like the image on the left, for a bunch of small reasons, but easily two very obvious ones:

 

• His left arm wouldn't be nearly as far across his chest (the right elbow nowhere near as far below the left, etc.).
• His hips wouldn't be so "open" or whatever word you want to use there to describe the orientation of his pelvis.

 

 

So… "if something else is wrong, it won't work"? Can't you say that about almost anything? If something is faulty, anywhere, then the other parts done correctly won't work. Right?

 

I think there's "push-back" because a lot of people think the arms are truly passive. Or some people feel like they're passive, and so it's an old "feel vs. real" argument again.

 

“Passive arms” for me means leaving them nine miles behind my body, spinning out like it’s my job, and then trying to compensate subconsciously which leads to a variation of….crap.

 

i think I’ve come to the conclusion lately that anyone’s opinions on passive vs active are most likely THEIR interpretation of feel, unless they can explain the sequence and why, it’s tough to teach.  If I’m trying to change something, no matter what it is, it’s usually ACTIVE.  Over time, I come to think it’s passive. I guess that’s just building habits and engraining.

 

 

 

It reminds me of the scene in Forgetting Sarah Marshall where Paul Rudd character is trying to teach Jason Segel how to surf…

 

 

[MPStrat]

11 minutes ago, dminn23 said:

“Passive arms” for me means leaving them nine miles behind my body, spinning out like it’s my job, and then trying to compensate subconsciously which leads to a variation of….crap.

 

i think I’ve come to the conclusion lately that anyone’s opinions on passive vs active are most likely THEIR interpretation of feel, unless they can explain the sequence and why, it’s tough to teach.  If I’m trying to change something, no matter what it is, it’s usually ACTIVE.  Over time, I come to think it’s passive. I guess that’s just building habits and engraining.

 

 

 

It reminds me of the scene in Forgetting Sarah Marshall where Paul Rudd character is trying to teach Jason Segel how to surf…

 

 

That’s funny. I have a friend who always says “do less” when he hits a bad shot 

[iacas]

48 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

You can get away with much more slop of swing with the passive arms, there's simply more tenths of time to noodle the garbage. To move the out of position to position.

 

Oh, okay. I get you now. Thanks.