How do we feel about Hailey Davidson

[stinger_gc]

How do you all feel about Hailey Davidson (a trans women) potentially earning a tour card? I know the LPGA hasn’t had to deal with this yet but I’m just curious what the reaction from players/fans would be if Hailey potentially makes it on tour and wins an event or 2? (I know this might get locked but let’s keep it clean, looking for an objective discussion)

 

https://nypost.com/2024/01/20/sports/trans-golfer-hailey-davidson-wins-womens-tournament-increasing-chances-to-lpga-qualifier/amp/

Edited January 20 by stinger_gc

[ThinkingPlus]

IBTL

[woahnelly]

"Step Closer" to making to the LPGA in this instance is like a graduating 5th grader becoming a step closer to earning a PhD - still along way to go 

[North Texas]

4 hours ago, stinger_gc said:

How do you all feel about Hailey Davidson (a trans women) potentially earning a tour card? I know the LPGA hasn’t had to deal with this yet but I’m just curious what the reaction from players/fans would be if Hailey potentially makes it on tour and wins an event or 2? (I know this might get locked but let’s keep it clean, looking for an objective discussion)

 

https://nypost.com/2024/01/20/sports/trans-golfer-hailey-davidson-wins-womens-tournament-increasing-chances-to-lpga-qualifier/amp/

 

She's not really as close to earning a tour card as the nypost article makes it sound like. 

 

Transgender woman wins mini-tour event, still faces long road to LPGA (usatoday.com)

[JD3]

It depends if LPGA wants to be an at-birth female tour going forward. Theres a very large amount of male golfers who aren't good enough to qualify for men's golf tours, but are good enough to be competitive on female tours. This may incentive them to meet the metrics to be legally female so they can play professional golf. LPGA could see a double digit number of them dominating their leaderboards. I leave this to others to determine if this is good or bad.

Edited January 21 by JD3

[ChronicSlicer]

14 hours ago, stinger_gc said:

How do you all feel about Hailey Davidson (a trans women) potentially earning a tour card? I know the LPGA hasn’t had to deal with this yet but I’m just curious what the reaction from players/fans would be if Hailey potentially makes it on tour and wins an event or 2? (I know this might get locked but let’s keep it clean, looking for an objective discussion)

 

https://nypost.com/2024/01/20/sports/trans-golfer-hailey-davidson-wins-womens-tournament-increasing-chances-to-lpga-qualifier/amp/

You'll likely get as many honest replies here, as you would from the girls who are playing against Hailey, probably none. It's too easy to become labeled as transphobic, which could lead to cancelations in today's society. 

Personally, I don't agree with it.

[JFCSr]

I think it is wrong - period.  As late as 2015 Davidson was a "man".  He is not a woman and I believe the LPGA has made a mistake allowing a man to compete against women.  The other women could make this a really easy solution if they all refused to play against men.  

[ChronicSlicer]

11 hours ago, woahnelly said:

"Step Closer" to making to the LPGA in this instance is like a graduating 5th grader becoming a step closer to earning a PhD - still along way to go 

 

10 hours ago, North Texas said:

 

She's not really as close to earning a tour card as the nypost article makes it sound like. 

 

Transgender woman wins mini-tour event, still faces long road to LPGA (usatoday.com)

I don't think the LPGA, was the focal point. I'm guessing it's women's golf at every level, obviously the LPGA being the final destination.

[stinger_gc]

5 hours ago, ChronicSlicer said:

You'll likely get as many honest replies here, as you would from the girls who are playing against Hailey, probably none. It's too easy to become labeled as transphobic, which could lead to cancelations in today's society. 

Personally, I don't agree with it.

That’s a good way to put it. The article said hailey  lost 15 mph of swing speed. The avg tour pro is around 115mph and the avg lpga pro is around 94. I’m curious how hailey sizes up against the other lpga pros 

[elwhippy]

This is a loaded subject. British sporting bodies have blocked trans athletes from competing. And rightly so. They, and the other tours need to act now and put in an age limit of when someone was still their birth sex. Say 8 years old. 

[PedronNiall]

While there have been a lot more instances elsewhere of trans athletes moving from men's to women's divisions and having a far easier time, golf is very different than sports like swimming or weight lifting where the inherent differences in musculature provide an outsized advantage. No one is simply showing up hitting it longer on any golf tour without a strong total game and doing well. 

 

Still, if all other parts of their game are equal, the natural advantage in strength someone born male has over a genetic woman is simple fact and makes for an unbalanced starting point. If that difference weren't a concern then the women's tours wouldn't be women only and top women would be playing on the men's tours for the higher payouts every chance they got.

 

I don't see it as fair for genetic women to have to play against others who for all intents and purposes have had a lifetime of testosterone injection when their bodies are most able to put it to use to grow more muscle, denser bone, and a wider frame, all of which will mostly remain after they've transitioned. Admittedly, it gets very difficult to set a reasonable cutoff for when someone's experienced too much of that kind of growth to play against genetic women. Current sports are all over the place about what's required to play in a non assigned-at-birth gender division, leading to everything from people abusing it for social awareness to women who trained their whole lives losing out on awards, etc., to people who are still genetically & physically men. 

 

I do think it's something the women's tours will have to address directly at some point, though. What that decision looks like I can't say, but I doubt it will fall on the side of letting anyone with heavy physical advantages put them to use by transitioning later in life. The people negatively affected by that might not like it but it's necessary to keep the playing field reasonably level. This came up in Australia last year IIRC and no specific changes have come down that I know of.  

 

It's going to be a mess if all the major women's tours don't come up with a uniform set of rules regarding this.

[MelloYello]

I have a couple takes I feel are reasonable. 

 

#1 - This should always be up to the Tour itself and by that I mean the players themselves. I not going to tell anyone how to set their rules. That's precisely their business so long as it's fair to those that qualify. This obviously extends to qualification itself but if you can exclude men outright, I suppose you could extend that to include Trans people, too, who are in this case a separate group from the traditional female as it's historically been conceived to this point. 

 

In essence, it's not about deciding whether Trans people are "real" men/women but how they classify when it comes to sport because their position is obviously unique and TBD. 

#2 - Sports are entertainment, particularly when it comes to women's golf. Image means more than we let on and the image of the LPGA is very obviously in the direction of young, athletic females. The product is sold to a viewership which is mostly just male golfers. I contend there's nothing creepy about it as I think we all admire the players for how they play but I don't think it would be good business for the LPGA--as a source of entertainment--to begin to disrupt what is a precisely dialed-in image that the viewership wants. 

 

In essence, the viewership will have a lot to say and if the LPGA were to move against viewership, that wouldn't make financial sense either. 

[Seamus_McDuff]

https://www.nxxtwomensprotour.com/post/nxxt-women-s-pro-tour-responds-to-recent-public-concerns-with-statement-on-gender-policies-and-furth

[JD3]

On 1/22/2024 at 2:36 PM, MelloYello said:

I have a couple takes I feel are reasonable. 

 

#1 - This should always be up to the Tour itself and by that I mean the players themselves. I not going to tell anyone how to set their rules. That's precisely their business so long as it's fair to those that qualify. This obviously extends to qualification itself but if you can exclude men outright, I suppose you could extend that to include Trans people, too, who are in this case a separate group from the traditional female as it's historically been conceived to this point. 

 

In essence, it's not about deciding whether Trans people are "real" men/women but how they classify when it comes to sport because their position is obviously unique and TBD. 

#2 - Sports are entertainment, particularly when it comes to women's golf. Image means more than we let on and the image of the LPGA is very obviously in the direction of young, athletic females. The product is sold to a viewership which is mostly just male golfers. I contend there's nothing creepy about it as I think we all admire the players for how they play but I don't think it would be good business for the LPGA--as a source of entertainment--to begin to disrupt what is a precisely dialed-in image that the viewership wants. 

 

In essence, the viewership will have a lot to say and if the LPGA were to move against viewership, that wouldn't make financial sense either. 

Wrt point #1, is solely up to LPGA to decide? You can bet there would be massive legal challenges if they tried to ban transgender based on them solely deciding who's female or not.

[ChronicSlicer]

On 1/23/2024 at 7:47 AM, Seamus_McDuff said:

https://www.nxxtwomensprotour.com/post/nxxt-women-s-pro-tour-responds-to-recent-public-concerns-with-statement-on-gender-policies-and-furth

I support the idea of a poll taken by the players. I just hope it's done anonymously so nobody has to suffer any sort of backlash for their opinion.

[stinger_gc]

On 1/24/2024 at 7:26 PM, ChronicSlicer said:

I support the idea of a poll taken by the players. I just hope it's done anonymously so nobody has to suffer any sort of backlash for their opinion.

Easy to do. I feel in some sort of weird ways this would be good for the LPGA tour as it would draw more eyeballs 

[WorkItBothWays]

I very much believe golf should be open to everyone but when it comes to competition I think this is wrong.

[ChronicSlicer]

8 hours ago, stinger_gc said:

Easy to do. I feel in some sort of weird ways this would be good for the LPGA tour as it would draw more eyeballs 

Make no mistake if the LPGA ever has to make a decision regarding this topic and choose to ban players like Hailey, it will receive more eyeballs, unfortunately it will probably be in the form of protesters. 

[stinger_gc]

14 hours ago, ChronicSlicer said:

Make no mistake if the LPGA ever has to make a decision regarding this topic and choose to ban players like Hailey, it will receive more eyeballs, unfortunately it will probably be in the form of protesters. 

True. I feel like it’s a no win situation.

[PedronNiall]

On 1/26/2024 at 7:00 PM, ChronicSlicer said:

Make no mistake if the LPGA ever has to make a decision regarding this topic and choose to ban players like Hailey, it will receive more eyeballs, unfortunately it will probably be in the form of protesters. 

According to the post above polling from players about the nature of the tour will be a deciding factor. They will also be using already established guidelines about testosterone levels as a baseline, so it's not all arbitrary. 

 

I agree protestors could be an issue, but not much to be done about that. It will mostly be at smaller events and less likely to draw real attention so less likely to get disruptive.

 

The bigger outcome is that the decision from one sports entity or another is likely going to end up in some legal decisions that everyone will have to abide by. Going to be a shame if things end up where the majority of competitors have to contest events against a handful of others whose natural advantages they'll never have a chance to compete with. 

[bcflyguy1]

Since my first reply to this thread didn't pass the mod test, measured though it was, let's try again.

The young lady that lost the playoff to Davidson a week ago plays out of my home club. The win would've gotten her exemption into 3 Symetra Tour events; great chances to set a positive course for her pro career. She had some interesting insights about the power dynamics at play in this case and what happened in the playoff itself. She played all 56 holes of the tournament with Davidson, and some odd things happened when it got down to winning time.

As far as the title of the thread, you don't want to know what I think and will leave it at that.

[1t2golf]

A good read. 

 

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2024/02/02/transgender-golfer-hailey-davidson-bobbi-lancaster-i-dont-think-its-fair/

 

[ChronicSlicer]

6 hours ago, 1t2golf said:

A good read. 

 

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2024/02/02/transgender-golfer-hailey-davidson-bobbi-lancaster-i-dont-think-its-fair/

 

Nice to see Amy, Betsy and Judy give an opinion. Unfortunately none of them have anything to lose at the moment.

[Raving Shanker]

I'd say a categorical NO to this. I'd certainly check out if a single transgender athlete were allowed to compete in the LPGA.

 

I would have no objection to transgender athletes (male to female, or female to male) competing in men's events. In fact, men's sport could be relabeled as "Open Category" to reflect this.

 

On a club level I don't see any major issues, until it comes to non-handicapped events. 

[phizzy30]

On 1/21/2024 at 6:47 AM, JFCSr said:

I think it is wrong - period.  As late as 2015 Davidson was a "man".  He is not a woman and I believe the LPGA has made a mistake allowing a man to compete against women.  The other women could make this a really easy solution if they all refused to play against men.  

Agree 100%.  I'm all for diversity and inclusion, but this has to do with human biology, hormones and all that jazz.  I believe that only women born biologically female at birth should be allowed to compete on the LPGA Tour or any female golf tour. 

[st1800e]

Current LPGA Gender Policy.

 

https://www.lpga.com/gender-policy

[phizzy30]

8 hours ago, st1800e said:

Current LPGA Gender Policy.

 

https://www.lpga.com/gender-policy

I disagree with their policy but respect their decision.  I'm guessing the LPGA will allow Hailey to play on tour according to their policy then provided she qualifies in the future. 

Edited February 14 by phizzy30

[North Texas]

She has now been banned from the NXXT Tour.

 

Transgender golfer Hailey Davidson banned from LPGA feeder tour (usatoday.com)

[JungleJimbo]

19 hours ago, North Texas said:

She has now been banned from the NXXT Tour.

 

Transgender golfer Hailey Davidson banned from LPGA feeder tour (usatoday.com)

Thanks @North Texas... Longer article here: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/golf/article-13174397/transgender-golfer-hailey-davidson-nxxt-policy-biological-female.html 

[OBbogey5]

Hailey should not be playing in women’s pro or amateur events, period. I have nothing against Hailey, but this isn’t Nam, there are rules.

 

That’s how I feel about it.