We shouldn't copy Tour swings, but...

[JamesFisher1990]

But if we are looking for examples of the "best" ways other players with our body type swing the club, is it really a bad idea to at least study their swing and take bits and pieces of it?

 

For example, I've been seeing a lot of videos online about pressure shifting lately, and how there's three main ways to shift pressure and it equates to varying degrees of pressure % into the rear foot. Let's say you are a strong rear biased loader - wouldn't it make sense to check out what other professionals who are rear biased as well do in their swing (and equally so, to maybe ignore the ones who don't?).

 

Same goes for body mechanics and proportions - I might imagine if you have shorter arms and legs relative to your torso, finding somebody built like Gumby with long arms and legs isn't going to be something worth your time to study very much.

 

All in all, I feel like I've seen or felt I've seen two black & white approaches to coaching. Those who video your swing then bring it up next to Adam Scott or Tiger and say, "now just do this" and others who say it's a total waste of your time to copy a pro because many are outliers or we simply can't move like they do. Maybe the true answer is somewhere in the middle and it's just a matter of finding the right patterns out there which match your body type and current abilities.

[iacas]

I agree, we should copy Tour swings. But…

 

I don't mean literally copy. And I rarely mean one person's specific swing. But… Tour players do things, as a whole, better than bad golfers. They generally use their legs well. They turn the "right" amounts. They use their arms effectively. They tilt the right way. They shift their weight and pressure at the right times and the right amounts.

 

Sergio Garcia in GEARS bends his right elbow 55° at the top of the backswing. I use that as an example for the 19 handicapper who is bending his right elbow 142°. Doesn't mean he has to get to 55° or do all of the other things that Sergio does in his swing.

 

And I never point to a screen and say "see, just do that." I use a Tour player or an amalgamation of Tour players to serve as examples. Tour players actually have simpler, easier swings than most average golfers. They do so faster… but one of the things that helps them do it faster is that they're simpler and easier.

Change is hard, so a player learning not to bend his trail elbow 142° is not "simple" or "easy," but if they're diligent and practice the right way, the swing itself gets simpler and easier over time.

[naval2006]

50 minutes ago, JamesFisher1990 said:

 

 

For example, I've been seeing a lot of videos online about pressure shifting lately, and how there's three main ways to shift pressure and it equates to varying degrees of pressure % into the rear foot. Let's say you are a strong rear biased loader - wouldn't it make sense to check out what other professionals who are rear biased as well do in their swing (and equally so, to maybe ignore the ones who don't?).

 

 

There are some amateur golfers who check on a certain pro to justify a flaw.  Like "look at Scottie and the way he shakes his feet through" or "Bubba can play with a banana slice".  

 

However, if you don't look at pros, how are you going to imagine the golf swing as a beginner?  Or you want to see how the head, hips, arms or whatever works during the swing.  Explanation is fine, but observing in order to grasp the motion is of great help.

 

It's not copying, it's watching to learn, understand and, in some cases, try to get something from role model swings.  Instructors spend hours watching the best players swinging a club for a reason. 

 

And always discuss this with your COACH.  

[phizzy30]

I think it's fine to take bits and pieces from different tour pros but not necessarily totally copy one tour pro's swing.  My swing has gotten a bit too steep recently so I'm reteaching my body how to shallow out a bit more especially with driver so I've been studying tour pros who shallow out well.  However, as a 4 cap, I will defer to @iacasand @MonteScheinblumon this one. 

Edited March 12 by phizzy30

[Rosco1216]

Tour pros all pretty much have similar moves/angles from p5-p7. That is what anyone can strive for. However there are a number of tour pros that make some type of extreme move from p1-p4. Extreme as in far from what would be considered neutral with arms/wrists and being on plane with the shaft. These guys are the anomaly and not what you want to try and emulate. 

[DShepley]

8 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

I think it's fine to take bits and pieces from different tour pros but not necessarily totally copy one tour pro's swing.  My swing has gotten a bit too steep recently so I'm reteaching my body how to shallow out a bit more especially with driver so I've been studying tour pros who shallow out well.  However, as a 4 cap, I will defer to @iacasand @MonteScheinblumon this one. 

The bits and pieces from different tour pros takes some knowledge of the swing.  Tour pros have match-ups that allow their swings to function.  Jim Furyk is an extreme example.  I struggle a bit with all of the 'data' that justifies what tour pros do when it is based on an average.  The "we measured all of these pros and they all are within 'X'" so we teach the amateur to aim for the average but in the end, if you changed that parameter for a tour pro, whatever parameter, there is a chance they get worse...I guess I am saying that the tour pro's swing works because their parameter is X and not the average.  Not sure exactly what I am trying to get at really.  I think there is merit in understanding and trying to mimic what the best in the world do but we need to understand that the best in the world don't all fit the same model, so borrowing this from player X and that from player Y might not work.  If you have a limitation in one area of your swing, you will need to have a compensating move somewhere else and that is true for the pros as well.

[phizzy30]

Just now, DShepley said:

The bits and pieces from different tour pros takes some knowledge of the swing.  Tour pros have match-ups that allow their swings to function.  Jim Furyk is an extreme example.  I struggle a bit with all of the 'data' that justifies what tour pros do when it is based on an average.  The "we measured all of these pros and they all are within 'X'" so we teach the amateur to aim for the average but in the end, if you changed that parameter for a tour pro, whatever parameter, there is a chance they get worse...I guess I am saying that the tour pro's swing works because their parameter is X and not the average.  Not sure exactly what I am trying to get at really.  I think there is merit in understanding and trying to mimic what the best in the world do but we need to understand that the best in the world don't all fit the same model, so borrowing this from player X and that from player Y might not work.  If you have a limitation in one area of your swing, you will need to have a compensating move somewhere else and that is true for the pros as well.

Best thing would be to go to a reputable teaching pro who can identify the flaws and give you drills to work on.  Picking bits of pieces from tour pros is definitely a bit tricky because one does have to have some knowledge of the swing and be able to identify their flaws.  It's a bit of trial and error as well, but as long as there aren't many things to fix, it can be done successfully, IMO. 

[me05501]

I can't recall who posted it or in what thread, or maybe IG who knows...but they paraphrased Tiger thusly: "The flaws you have early in your playing days will be with you for life. You have to stay on top of those issues if you want to get better."

 

I know this is true for me. 

 

If it is in fact true for most, there are pros and cons to it. 

 

Con: we may be cursed to a never-ending fight against our incorrect patterns.

 

Pro: if you can identify these patterns you'll always know what to work on. 
 

[straightshot7]

Yeah you have to look at all of them and find the things that would help you get better.

 

Copying Joaquin Niemann's swing? Probably not possible or a good idea. But noticing how open he and other pros are at impact - a clue to follow.

 

Noticing that almost all pros have a flat or slightly bowed left wrist (for right hander) at the top and through impact - - a clue to follow. You definitely don't want to have a cupped left wrist if almost 0 pros do.

There are key commonalities in pro's swings that should be practiced, especially when backed by the swing teaching community and proven to get results. One of the most important I think is more rotation of the body, less throwing of the arms on the downswing. Most amateurs tend to throw and not rotate.

Now practicing this and implementing it into your game is the million dollar question. Many hours of half swings/slow swings focusing on 1 change at a time helps. 

 

And use high quality video of your swing so you can actually see what you are doing wrong or pay a good swing coach to help you with this. 

 

But yes we'd be foolish not to look at pros - - they are getting the results that we want.

Edited March 12 by straightshot7

[MonteScheinblum]

Here’s the irony.  The media tends to revere the anomalies of one player as that being the reason they’re good, versus movements that 147 out of 150 do.

 

in most cases, they are succeeding in spite of the anomaly and if 147 out of 150 great players do something, it’s probably a pretty good idea and the easiest way to do it.

 

For example.  Rory’s double hip deceleration was all the rage and I saw people actively practicing that move on the range after a big deal was made about it in the golf media.

 

The day after Matt Wollf won, everyone was one the range practicing that move.

 

The best example and I actually predicted this.

 

I wrote an article saying there’s a young stud on the tour who is going to win a big event soon and the golf media will go wild about something extreme he does.  
 

Shortly there after Dustin Johnson made a big splash.  Monday after his win, Michael Breed said, “This is the reason he hits it so long and straight.”  People on every range I went to for weeks and months where doing that move and hitting it low and left.

 

Here’s the irony.  I was standing fairly close at times when I heard Rory trying to temper his double stall, Sergio trying to release earlier so he’d launch higher and Hideki trying to reduce the pause.  There was a video on social media where when Hideki reduced the pause, his club speed went from 118 to 130.  Sergio, while being a great ball striker, has one of the worst club head speed to carry and distance ratios on tour.  Rory was prone to snap hooks under pressure.  Three things that the golfing public has actively tried to copy.

 

Yet when it was measured that 149 out of 150 start extending their lead wrist around p6, that got no play, as everyone is still trying to holding angles.

 

Conclusion.  Don’t copy what 1 guy does, try and copy what most of them do.

 

Most shift earlier, most flex lead wrist close to transition (just before or just after), most accelerate their arms/hands early, most trigger the takeaway in reverse from downswing sequence, most stay closed with the upper body longer in downswing, most stay in left tilt longer, most get the center of mass behind their hands earlier by releasing the vertical hinge and trail elbow…..etc.

[Soloman1]

33 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Most shift earlier, most flex lead wrist close to transition (just before or just after), most accelerate their arms/hands early, most trigger the takeaway in reverse from downswing sequence, most stay closed with the upper body longer in downswing, most stay in left tilt longer, most get the center of mass behind their hands earlier by releasing the vertical hinge and trail elbow….

 

those are like the seven commandments and should be etched in a tablet. 

 

or the single page in the book “everything you always wanted to know about the difference between you and an elite golfer, but were afraid to ask.”

 

 

👍

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

2 hours ago, DShepley said:

The bits and pieces from different tour pros takes some knowledge of the swing.  Tour pros have match-ups that allow their swings to function.  Jim Furyk is an extreme example.  I struggle a bit with all of the 'data' that justifies what tour pros do when it is based on an average.  The "we measured all of these pros and they all are within 'X'" so we teach the amateur to aim for the average but in the end, if you changed that parameter for a tour pro, whatever parameter, there is a chance they get worse...I guess I am saying that the tour pro's swing works because their parameter is X and not the average.  Not sure exactly what I am trying to get at really.  I think there is merit in understanding and trying to mimic what the best in the world do but we need to understand that the best in the world don't all fit the same model, so borrowing this from player X and that from player Y might not work.  If you have a limitation in one area of your swing, you will need to have a compensating move somewhere else and that is true for the pros as well.

 

I suspect that what you're talking about is more of an issue with YouTube golf "instruction" than with actual, hands-on instructors. Seems people like to get on AMG's case in particular when they use averages. 

 

I really like AMG. I've learned a lot about the golf swing from watching their content. I use absolutely ZERO of it when it comes to trying to get better. That's what Monte is for, since he's local. 😉 

 

For a good instructor, I don't think they teach you to "be tour average". I know with Monte, when I go to him he listens to what I'm experiencing, looks at my swing, tells my why what I'm doing [wrong] is leading to my problems, and what I should change to fix it. My second lesson was a simple change to setup. He saw I was bent forward about 54* at address, which affected hand position (obv), and made it hard to swing without moving my upper body carrying a little of that forward bend into my backswing. He explained why that was causing problems, i.e. the compensations I had to make to hit the ball and not dig a trench down to the irrigation system made it hard to play good golf consistently. He did use tour players saying they generally range from 35-40* forward bend, but didn't tell me I should be at 37.5* or any specific number. That was just a guideline so I knew the target range. He helped me work through the feel (it felt REALLY weird) until he had me in a more functional position, gave me the checkpoints on what I should be looking at when I film my swing to stay on top of it, and said as long as I'm in or at least somewhere even close to that range (i.e. don't worry if it's 33 or 42 degrees) it'll make it easier to perform a functional golf swing than if I'm bent over >50*. 

 

I think real instructors, including AMG, know that there's no point to trying to get everyone to match a "tour average" number. But I think they know that if 98% of tour pros are within the range of "X" and someone comes to them that's WAY outside that range, as I was with my address position, that getting them into that range might make an improvement to their golf game. 

 

[phizzy30]

1 hour ago, straightshot7 said:

Yeah you have to look at all of them and find the things that would help you get better.

 

Copying Joaquin Niemann's swing? Probably not possible or a good idea. But noticing how open he and other pros are at impact - a clue to follow.

 

Noticing that almost all pros have a flat or slightly bowed left wrist (for right hander) at the top and through impact - - a clue to follow. You definitely don't want to have a cupped left wrist if almost 0 pros do.

There are key commonalities in pro's swings that should be practiced, especially when backed by the swing teaching community and proven to get results. One of the most important I think is more rotation of the body, less throwing of the arms on the downswing. Most amateurs tend to throw and not rotate.

Now practicing this and implementing it into your game is the million dollar question. Many hours of half swings/slow swings focusing on 1 change at a time helps. 

 

And use high quality video of your swing so you can actually see what you are doing wrong or pay a good swing coach to help you with this. 

 

But yes we'd be foolish not to look at pros - - they are getting the results that we want.

Playing devil's advocate here but Daly had a cupped wrist and so did Hogan.  Hogan did just fine and while Daly never lived up to expectations, he still has 2 majors under his belt.  However, Daly is pretty steep coming down and probably had to groove his swing hitting thousands of balls to get it to the point where it was sustainable and good enough to play on tour. 

[baudi]

Copy & Paste is the trophy of waste. 

Watch & learn is how you may earn.

 

 

[Mikey_HACKilroy]

At some point this year (assuming certain things go well) I am going to be signing up for lessons. I don't give mechanical advice (that would be silly LOL), but here's how I think of the topic.

Professionals each have their unique processes, and there are definitely some outliers. Yet, all of them reach the fundamental positions in their swings. Their alignment, the top of the swing, release timing, weight shifting and other key fundamentals are all there. We regular folk do not reach these points consistently, and when we do we may not correctly identify it as a strength and instead identify it as a flaw.

 

Trying to carbon copy a swing itself is not the right move. Carbon copying the fundamental movements is the right approach, and for most of us that involves lessons. Jim Furyk may have a unique swing, but take a snap shot of him at impact and he's going to look more or less the same as nearly every other pro. Yes, there will be changes, but the key fundamentals are overall the same. It's about what each has to do to ensure that correct fundamental motion that is important. This was something I learned from a golf broadcast. Lord Google had nothing to do with my comments. 😄 

If your swing requires that you pick your nose at the top and scratch your a** on the way down in order to get the correct fundamental movements, then by all means pick and scratch away.

Disclaimer: Do not try picking and scratching through your swing, you may injure yourself or others...... 😄 😄😄 

Edited March 12 by Mikey_HACKilroy

[straightshot7]

49 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

Playing devil's advocate here but Daly had a cupped wrist and so did Hogan.  Hogan did just fine and while Daly never lived up to expectations, he still has 2 majors under his belt.  However, Daly is pretty steep coming down and probably had to groove his swing hitting thousands of balls to get it to the point where it was sustainable and good enough to play on tour. 

hogan doesn’t look cupped in some photos (in some he does). He definitely isn’t cupping through impact. He holds the angle like other pros (club head is not outracing the hands through impact).

 

John Daly’s positions are obviously an anomaly in many ways. But I bet he doesn’t release early / cup his left wrist though impact either. 
 

either way, this is my point —- if 98% of pros do something, it’s probably a good idea. 

[Pepperturbo]

7 hours ago, JamesFisher1990 said:

But if we are looking for examples of the "best" ways other players with our body type swing the club, is it really a bad idea to at least study their swing and take bits and pieces of it?

 

For example, I've been seeing a lot of videos online about pressure shifting lately, and how there's three main ways to shift pressure and it equates to varying degrees of pressure % into the rear foot. Let's say you are a strong rear biased loader - wouldn't it make sense to check out what other professionals who are rear biased as well do in their swing (and equally so, to maybe ignore the ones who don't?).

 

Same goes for body mechanics and proportions - I might imagine if you have shorter arms and legs relative to your torso, finding somebody built like Gumby with long arms and legs isn't going to be something worth your time to study very much.

 

All in all, I feel like I've seen or felt I've seen two black & white approaches to coaching. Those who video your swing then bring it up next to Adam Scott or Tiger and say, "now just do this" and others who say it's a total waste of your time to copy a pro because many are outliers or we simply can't move like they do. Maybe the true answer is somewhere in the middle and it's just a matter of finding the right patterns out there which match your body type and current abilities.

We amateurs should not encourage others to attempt to copy Pro swings, it can lead to bad juju for the am.  But I agree, somewhere in the middle is more than likely; except most ams don't know how to ascertain the middle.  Depending on the skill level of the amateur, it's possible to take away some benefit, though, I did recently. 

 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

4 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

 

those are like the seven commandments and should be etched in a tablet. 

 

or the single page in the book “everything you always wanted to know about the difference between you and an elite golfer, but were afraid to ask.”

 

 

👍

 

More irony, most golfers think these things are wrong.  Even in a place of higher knowledge like this forum there are dissenters.

[MonteScheinblum]

3 hours ago, straightshot7 said:

hogan doesn’t look cupped in some photos (in some he does). He definitely isn’t cupping through impact. He holds the angle like other pros (club head is not outracing the hands through impact).

 

John Daly’s positions are obviously an anomaly in many ways. But I bet he doesn’t release early / cup his left wrist though impact either. 
 

either way, this is my point —- if 98% of pros do something, it’s probably a good idea. 

Ironically 99.5% of pros don’t hold the angle and the club is outracing the hands.  It just doesn’t catch up and pass until after impact.

Edited March 12 by MonteScheinblum

[iacas]

8 hours ago, DShepley said:

Jim Furyk is an extreme example.

 

Very few people are using Jim Furyk as their "example" and saying "swing like this. I will admit to using Matt Wolff, however, as the EXTREME exaggeration for some students, but I don't want them to actually end up swinging that way. I just want them to do that once or twice (most barely get 10% of the way outside of relatively "middle" toward Wolff's takeaway when asked to do it).

 

8 hours ago, DShepley said:

I struggle a bit with all of the 'data' that justifies what tour pros do when it is based on an average.

 

The average Tour player hits 4.5° down with a 7I. That doesn't mean I want my amateurs all hitting 4.5° down, but if they're hitting 1° down, or 8° down, it's probably not optimal. I tell them all day anything from 1.5° (more women, as they're closer to 2.3° average) to 7° down have won major championships.

 

Averages are just a point… it's important to know standard deviations from there.

 

8 hours ago, DShepley said:

The "we measured all of these pros and they all are within 'X'"

 

The way I read it… "within" is not an average. If 98% of tour players are within 2.5° of 4.5° down (2° to 7°), maybe that's a good range for amateurs? If 98% of Tour players turn their hips between 20° and 50° in the backswing, maybe amateurs should be in that range if they're capable of it? Etc.

 

8 hours ago, DShepley said:

so borrowing this from player X and that from player Y might not work

 

Of course. I don't know any good instructor who suggests that you take things from players willy nilly.

 

7 hours ago, straightshot7 said:

One of the most important I think is more rotation of the body, less throwing of the arms on the downswing. Most amateurs tend to throw and not rotate.

 

Off topic for this thread, but… from what I've seen, most amateurs rotate and then HAVE to throw while they stall the rotation.

 

6 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Conclusion.  Don’t copy what 1 guy does, try and copy what most of them do.

 

Yep. Within the ranges.

[MonteScheinblum]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Very few people are using Jim Furyk as their "example" and saying "swing like this. I will admit to using Matt Wolff, however, as the EXTREME exaggeration for some students, but I don't want them to actually end up swinging that way. I just want them to do that once or twice (most barely get 10% of the way outside of relatively "middle" toward Wolff's takeaway when asked to do it).

 

 

The average Tour player hits 4.5° down with a 7I. That doesn't mean I want my amateurs all hitting 4.5° down, but if they're hitting 1° down, or 8° down, it's probably not optimal. I tell them all day anything from 1.5° (more women, as they're closer to 2.3° average) to 7° down have won major championships.

 

Averages are just a point… it's important to know standard deviations from there.

 

 

The way I read it… "within" is not an average. If 98% of tour players are within 2.5° of 4.5° down (2° to 7°), maybe that's a good range for amateurs? If 98% of Tour players turn their hips between 20° and 50° in the backswing, maybe amateurs should be in that range if they're capable of it? Etc.

 

 

Of course. I don't know any good instructor who suggests that you take things from players willy nilly.

 

 

Off topic for this thread, but… from what I've seen, most amateurs rotate and then HAVE to throw while they stall the rotation.

 

 

Yep. Within the ranges.

Averages are a reference point and nothing else.  It was like that one poster who said he had a set of irons with a 42* PW and a 30* 7iron because his all knowing instructor who played on the lpga tour wanted him to launch each club on the tour average.  
 

I’ve had golfers come to me complaining they’re steep because they’re 5.5 down on a 7 iron.

 

Chasing numbers and looks is fools gold, but knowing the ranges and averages allows for finding the optimal for the individual.  
 

If all tour players who have a 9 iron speed over 90 have an aoa between down 3.5 and down 7…..down 1 for someone swinging 93 is probably an issue.

[MonteScheinblum]

Addendum

 

tour average wedge is down 5

 

If I didn’t know that and someone hitting down 10 with no divot, how would I know that was likely bad.

 

A proper strike down 6.5 is all good knowing 5 is the average.  However, if the tour average was down 2, we might see 6.5 differently. It’s likely out of range.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 13 by MonteScheinblum

[straightshot7]

On 3/12/2024 at 4:01 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

Ironically 99.5% of pros don’t hold the angle and the club is outracing the hands.  It just doesn’t catch up and pass until after impact.

 

I do not think pros consciously try to hold any angle.

And what I meant by not outracing is that the club head doesn't pass the hands until after impact, just as you said.

 

I didn't mean that the club isn't traveling faster than the hands.

 

I think pros rotate the body more and create a later release than amateurs who throw and don't rotate. 

 

Is the later release a cause or an effect. . is it something we should try to create or does it just happen?

I think mostly if you focus on making the right body movements, the correct release will come. But, it doesn't hurt to think about not "throwing" the club head, in my experience.

But I think you have a video that says the opposite so whatever works. 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 18 by straightshot7

[DShepley]

41 minutes ago, straightshot7 said:

 

I do not think pros consciously try to hold any angle.

And what I meant by not outracing is that the club head doesn't pass the hands until after impact, just as you said.

 

I didn't mean that the club isn't traveling faster than the hands.

 

I think pros rotate the body more and create a later release than amateurs who throw and don't rotate. 

 

Is the later release a cause or an effect. . is it something we should try to create or does it just happen?

I think mostly if you focus on making the right body movements, the correct release will come. But, it doesn't hurt to think about not "throwing" the club head, in my experience.

But I think you have a video that says the opposite so whatever works. 

 

 

Most amateurs hold the angle at the top and spin their shoulders open early. It moves the hands towards the ball and forces the angles to dump early so they don't miss the ball, (stand the shaft up, flip and roll the shaft). The key is that the pros throw the clubhead away in the proper direction which let's their body stay turning ahead of the release.

Edited March 13 by DShepley

[JamesFisher1990]

14 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Ironically 99.5% of pros don’t hold the angle and the club is outracing the hands.  It just doesn’t catch up and pass until after impact.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't one of the first things that most pro's do from the top is actively reduce the angle between forearm & upper arm (i.e., actively "throwing" the angle away?).

 

My understanding is that the above is true, and like you said... it happens so fast that one can't even get the club head past the hands unless you have serious serious swing flaws. Pictures just make it look like the angle is intentionally held. The more I learn about golf swing and instruction, the more I learn that photos are actually maybe more harmful than helpful. I try to rely on video and I'm really starting to enjoy hearing about GEARS and the pressure plates.

[DShepley]

11 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Averages are a reference point and nothing else.  It was like that one poster who said he had a set of irons with a 42* PW and a 30* 7iron because his all knowing instructor who played on the lpga tour wanted him to launch each club on the tour average.  
 

I’ve had golfers come to me complaining they’re steep because they’re 5.5 down on a 7 iron.

 

Chasing numbers and looks is fools gold, but knowing the ranges and averages allows for finding the optimal for the individual.  
 

If all tour players who have a 9 iron speed over 90 have an aoa between down 3.5 and down 7…..down 1 for someone swinging 93 is probably an issue.

Yes I know and I'm not attempting to call out instructors. Sometimes average data is presented as absolutes and it's not often known which players are making up the average. The tour pro who is 3.5 down at over 90 mph might struggle if he was 7 down like the other player.  The player who is 3.5 down might be 5'6" tall while the player 7 down might be 6'2" tall, one might swing with his lead arm on his should plane at the top like Rory and the other might swing with his lead arm above his shoulder plane at the top like Thomas.  Knowing the ranges as a starting point is helpful and I'm sure you teach that way but understanding the matchups that contribute to the variation is important in my view.  Nicklaus didn't swing like Hogan, Rory doesn't swing like Thomas...I guess what I'm getting at is that ideally you would match up the metrics with the swing characteristics. 

Edited March 13 by DShepley

[iacas]

49 minutes ago, DShepley said:

Yes I know and I'm not attempting to call out instructors. Sometimes average data is presented as absolutes and it's not often known which players are making up the average. The tour pro who is 3.5 down at over 90 mph might struggle if he was 7 down like the other player.  The player who is 3.5 down might be 5'6" tall while the player 7 down might be 6'2" tall, one might swing with his lead arm on his should plane at the top like Rory and the other might swing with his lead arm above his shoulder plane at the top like Thomas.  Knowing the ranges as a starting point is helpful and I'm sure you teach that way but understanding the matchups that contribute to the variation is important in my view.  Nicklaus didn't swing like Hogan, Rory doesn't swing like Thomas...I guess what I'm getting at is that ideally you would match up the metrics with the swing characteristics. 

 

The point @MonteScheinblum and I both made are that averages are not worthless, you just have to know what they represent.

 

GEARS has a "Tour Average" swing, for example, and I have never used that in a lesson — it's pointless to give much weight to a swing that averages Sergio Garcia and Ian Poulter and Billy Horschel and Jon Rahm and Rory McIlroy together.

 

But if you know what the average is, and you know what the standard deviations are… you'll at least have some faith that you're in the ballpark.

 

For example I taught a girl who was swinging at LPGA Tour average speed with her 7I, but was hitting 6.5° down and had smash factors in the 1.2x range, when averages are -2.3° and 1.39… it gives you a clue why she might be hitting it 20 yards short of the LPGA Tour average. Moving toward that average, even if you never get there (or you go past it) can result in positive changes.

 

I don't know that I've ever really seen averages posted as absolutes, or if they are, I don't read them that way - I read them as roughly the median value, with a range to both sides that can easily work well.

[MonteScheinblum]

5 hours ago, JamesFisher1990 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't one of the first things that most pro's do from the top is actively reduce the angle between forearm & upper arm (i.e., actively "throwing" the angle away?).

 

My understanding is that the above is true, and like you said... it happens so fast that one can't even get the club head past the hands unless you have serious serious swing flaws. Pictures just make it look like the angle is intentionally held. The more I learn about golf swing and instruction, the more I learn that photos are actually maybe more harmful than helpful. I try to rely on video and I'm really starting to enjoy hearing about GEARS and the pressure plates.

There’s variety like in any other move, but it starts unloading pretty quickly for most.  Jack Nicklaus famously said you can’t release too early once you get left.  Duval has talked endlessly about throwing from the top.

Edited March 13 by MonteScheinblum

[GoGoErky]

4 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

There’s variety like in any other move, but it starts unloading pretty quickly for most.  Jack Nicklaus famously said you can’t release too early once you get left.  Duval has talked endlessly about throwing from the top.

Iirc he talked about trying to extend the lead wrist too around impact in his golf channel thing with Charlie Rymer 

[MonteScheinblum]

8 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Iirc he talked about trying to extend the lead wrist too around impact in his golf channel thing with Charlie Rymer 

This is what irks me.  I know feel isn’t real and elite players are often poor vessels for information, but when many of them are saying the same thing, there’s a reason.

 

There are some holders among elite players, but definitely. Ire throwers.  However, you have a huge number having said stay closed longer and bring the arms down.  Nicklaus, Rose, Sergio, Tiger, Harrington, Mcilroy, Dechambeau, et al.  Yet there are still many that scoff at the idea.  The body driven/passive arm narrative is an extremely large and steadfast group.  This is especially laughable when the overwhelming majority of ams have arms trailing in the sequence.

 

I often see passive aggressive comments here about keeping the back to the target feel.  Hard to say if it’s directed at me or Nicklaus and Rose. 😜