Rory's Drop Yesterday After Hitting Into Lateral Hazard

[North Texas]

Okay, I'm having a bit of a brain fart. 

 

There seemed to be a question about if his ball landed outside the hazard line or inside the hazard line. But why does that matter? Doesn't he get the same two club lengths from where it crossed the hazard line whether it bounced across the line or crossed the line on the fly? 

 

Or did I not understand what they were talking about?

Edited March 15 by North Texas

[iacas]

1 minute ago, North Texas said:

Okay, I'm having a bit of a brain fart. 

 

There seemed to be a question about if his ball landed outsider the hazard line or inside the hazard line. But why does that matter? Doesn't he get the same two club lengths from where it crossed the hazard line whether it bounced across the line or crossed the line on the fly? 

 

Or did I not understand what they were talking about?

 

The issue is that it may not have crossed up there. If it never crossed (because it landed "short" of the line and immediately bounced left into the water), his drop would be way back, maybe just over a forward tee.

 

So… it's a matter of whether it crossed the line up there at all, not whether it did it on the bounce or on the fly.

 

Edited March 15 by iacas

[Newby]

18 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

The issue is that it may not have crossed up there. If it never crossed (because it landed "short" of the line and immediately bounced left into the water), his drop would be way back, maybe just over a forward tee.

 

So… it's a matter of whether it crossed the line up there at all, not whether it did it on the bounce or on the fly.

 

We will now be getting scores of posts saying the ball actually crossed the margin way back, on the fly and McIlroy cheated and the referee was complicit. Whether they were standing on the line themselves or not.

[nsxguy]

14 minutes ago, North Texas said:

Okay, I'm having a bit of a brain fart. 

 

There seemed to be a question about if his ball landed outside the hazard line or inside the hazard line. But why does that matter? Doesn't he get the same two club lengths from where it crossed the hazard line whether it bounced across the line or crossed the line on the fly? 

 

Or did I not understand what they were talking about?

 

I guess I had the same brain fart ?

 

I confess I didn't listen to that whole 8-minute clip but the early part I was listening to did sound (to ME) like they were discussing the ball bouncing OUTSIDE of the PA vs first bouncing within the PA, and then into the water, from a particular spot.

 

And since, from what I briefly looked at, it seemed there was a lot of area (back towards the tee) that it could've crossed NEAR where they were talking, I was thinking "It's 10 yards, who cares ? Move on" <-- and that is why I stopped listening.

 

And of course the spot for taking PA relief is to determine where it LAST crossed. So taking what Mr iacas is saying the argument is, if it DIDN'T bounce at the point of discussion, outside the PA and then IN, the last point may have been WAY further back.

 

 

[st1800e]

Been debated ad nauseam on the Players 2024 thread.  There’s no conclusive answer there, and highly doubt there will be one here.  

[rogolf]

5 minutes ago, st1800e said:

Been debated ad nauseam on the Players 2024 thread.  There’s no conclusive answer there, and highly doubt there will be one here.  

Didn't Tiger have a similar shot, with similar debate, several years ago on no. 7?

[North Texas]

5 minutes ago, st1800e said:

Been debated ad nauseam on the Players 2024 thread.  There’s no conclusive answer there, and highly doubt there will be one here.  

 

I probably didn't make this clear enough in my post but my question has nothing to do with any argument about where it landed or didn't land and thus where should he drop. Because, just like they just said on TV, those of us watching on TV have no clue about where it did or didn't land. 

 

I was having a brain fart about whether it mattered if the ball landed outside the hazard line before bouncing in or if it went into the hazard on the fly. 

[North Texas]

13 minutes ago, Newby said:

We will now be getting scores of posts saying the ball actually crossed the margin way back, on the fly and McIlroy cheated and the referee was complicit. Whether they were standing on the line themselves or not.

 

I'm watching the same group today on feature groups and they are now on the hole where it all happened. 

 

The announcers, or least one of them, didn't hold back. They basically said the anyone watching on TV would have no clue whatsoever where the ball crossed. Have to say I agree with them. 

[Newby]

4 minutes ago, North Texas said:

 

I probably didn't make this clear enough in my post but my question has nothing to do with any argument about where it landed or didn't land and thus where should he drop. Because, just like they just said on TV, those of us watching on TV have no clue about where it did or didn't land. 

 

I was having a brain fart about whether it mattered if the ball landed outside the hazard line before bouncing in or if it went into the hazard on the fly. 

You may or may not have had a brain fart but makes no difference to the outcome 😉

Edited March 15 by Newby

[TayTaySlam]

All that matters is the fact we all agree Spieth absolutely sucks 

[st1800e]

13 minutes ago, North Texas said:

whether it mattered if the ball landed outside the hazard line before bouncing in or if it went into the hazard on the fly. 

if it didn’t land outside the line before it bounced then there’s a possibility that where it last crossed the line might’ve been further back towards the tee.  But we’ll never know.  
 

14 minutes ago, Newby said:

You may or may not have had a brain fart but makes no difference to the outcome now 😉

FTFY.  😉

[mrshinsa]

56 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

The issue is that it may not have crossed up there. If it never crossed (because it landed "short" of the line and immediately bounced left into the water), his drop would be way back, maybe just over a forward tee.

 

So… it's a matter of whether it crossed the line up there at all, not whether it did it on the bounce or on the fly.

 

Hmm, that's very strange, because the camera clearly shows the general area where the ball bounced and went in. 

 

 

If the camera recorded the approximate area of the ball bounce back, I can't imagine there can be any huge amount of discrepancy as to where it crossed.  

[st1800e]

26 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Didn't Tiger have a similar shot, with similar debate, several years ago on no. 7?

Might’ve been one on 7, the one I recall that got all the debate was on 14, surrounded by much more questioning than Rory’s situation yesterday.  

[North Texas]

1 minute ago, mrshinsa said:

Hmm, that's very strange, because the camera clearly shows the general area where the ball bounced and went in. 

 

 

If the camera recorded the approximate area of the ball bounce back, I can't imagine there can be any huge amount of discrepancy as to where it crossed.  

 

Yea, from what I read there doesn't seem to be much dispute that the ball landed before it bounced into the hazard. 

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, mrshinsa said:

Hmm, that's very strange, because the camera clearly shows the general area where the ball bounced and went in. 

 

 

If the camera recorded the approximate area of the ball bounce back, I can't imagine there can be any huge amount of discrepancy as to where it crossed.  

 

The ball is in the air there, and the red line is not at the water's edge. So it could have hit below the red line, bounced in the air, and landed again below or gone in the water.

 

From the tee, Chris Solomon on NLU's podcast said he didn't think it ever crossed. Rory's playing partners were doubtful, too.

 

But whatever… None of us saw it live and in person, so… this kind of talk is pretty limited.

[mrshinsa]

27 minutes ago, mrshinsa said:

Hmm, that's very strange, because the camera clearly shows the general area where the ball bounced and went in. 

 

 

If the camera recorded the approximate area of the ball bounce back, I can't imagine there can be any huge amount of discrepancy as to where it crossed.  

 

Also take a look at where Rory is dropping in comparison to the above picture.  Let's assume the two images are from the same camera(They could not be, but most likely since I can't imagine having two cameras at the similar location on the same hole). Using the sand area from across the water as a point of reference, it looks like the ball went in somewhere around the middle of the sand area.  Rory is dropping near the start of the sand area, which would be conservative per Rory's statement.   Another key feature is the directional mow of the grass.  The above image seems to indicate the ball went in much further up, compare to where Rory is dropping.

 

Again this is all under the assumption that two images are from the same camera.  (Again most likey, but not 100% confirmed.)

Edited March 15 by mrshinsa

[chisag]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

We will now be getting scores of posts saying the ball actually crossed the margin way back, on the fly and McIlroy cheated and the referee was complicit.

 

 

... Ever since Rory had a replacement of a ball in deep rough (I can't remember why he got to replace it) but the official was good with the placement but Rory was not. Rory said he has a better lie now and his ball was deeper in the rough. So they moved his ball deeper into the grass. There are those that would have happily taken the better lie with the officials approval, as is their right. But I have mad respect for that move by Rory and that isn't the actions of a guy looking to get away with anything.

[mrshinsa]

19 minutes ago, mrshinsa said:

 

Also take a look at where Rory is dropping in comparison to the above picture.  Let's assume the two images are from the same camera(They could not be, but most likely since I can't imagine having two cameras at the similar location on the same hole). Using the sand area from across the water as a point of reference, it looks like the ball went in somewhere around the middle of the sand area.  Rory is dropping near the start of the sand area, which would be conservative per Rory's statement.   Another key feature is the directional mow of the grass.  The above image seems to indicate the ball went in much further up, compare to where Rory is dropping.

 

Again this is all under the assumption that two images are from the same camera.  (Again most likey, but not 100% confirmed.)

 

To further add to detail, I'm going to take a guess that the camera is placed in the white structure area below.  In that case, the red arrow would indicate where the ball went in, and match the pattern of the straight mow as seen from the camera, and the blue arrow would indicate where the ball was dropped, again matching the diagonal pattern of the mow of the second image above.  The red arrow is also about 280~290yds from the tips, around the average carry for Rory.  

 

 

Overall, I think the shotlink below is pretty accurate of what went on :

 

I'm not a big fan of Rory, but I think what was done was correct and we can all move on.   If anything, Spieth and Hovland probably cost Rory a shot on this hole from their whine

 

 

Edited March 15 by mrshinsa

[st1800e]

28 minutes ago, mrshinsa said:

we can all move on

🤞

[st1800e]

30 minutes ago, mrshinsa said:

Overall, I think the shotlink below is pretty accurate of what went on :

Agreed. 
 

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, st1800e said:

Agreed. 
 

 

That doesn't prove anything, there… not that it needs to, as again none of us know where it crossed (including ShotLink volunteers, who probably just lasered where it hit the water).

[st1800e]

7 hours ago, iacas said:

That doesn't prove anything,

I’ve never seen anything “proved” on this forum.
 

Just another perspective.   

[mrshinsa]

8 hours ago, iacas said:

 

That doesn't prove anything, there… not that it needs to, as again none of us know where it crossed (including ShotLink volunteers, who probably just lasered where it hit the water).

 

Does this recreation prove anything?

 

[st1800e]

4 minutes ago, mrshinsa said:

 

Does this recreation prove anything?

 

 

[antip]

12 hours ago, North Texas said:

I was having a brain fart about whether it mattered if the ball landed outside the hazard line before bouncing in or if it went into the hazard on the fly. 

The Rules issue here is super simple: the reference point for lateral and back on a line relief is where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area. That edge is measured vertically above and below the ground. It makes no difference whether a ball in the penalty area crossed through the air, on the bounce, running along the ground or even crossed the edge below the ground (it can happen!). But establishing the correct facts about that crossing point can be tricky.

[iacas]

6 hours ago, st1800e said:

I’ve never seen anything “proved” on this forum.
 

Just another perspective.

 

It's not even a perspective. It just shows what the ShotLink volunteers layered. It doesn't point to where the ball crossed anything. The only thing it tells us about this is the location of his third shot. It doesn't say anything about the one prior except that it likely hit the water slightly ahead of where he dropped.

 

The ball bounced, but there's land there that's in the PA. It's not very wide, though. None of us were there and debating where it hit is pointless. He thought it crossed, his playing partners and Chris Solomon didn't. We don't know the truth, and can't know them, unless there's heretofore some unseen camera angle.

[Hawkeye77]

7 hours ago, mrshinsa said:

 

Does this recreation prove anything?

 

 

No.

[mrfitz]

I watched this as it happened. I think the real point is that from 280 yards away there was no way for Rory to be sure that the ball landed outside of the penalty area. Because the slope from the fairway, across the bunker, and then down to the water hid the actual location that the ball landed from view it is virtually impossible for anyone down the fairway to tell with certainty whether it crossed the line of the penalty area near where he dropped. 

 

Didn't really matter, he took a double.

[rogolf]

12 minutes ago, mrfitz said:

I watched this as it happened. I think the real point is that from 280 yards away there was no way for Rory to be sure that the ball landed outside of the penalty area. Because the slope from the fairway, across the bunker, and then down to the water hid the actual location that the ball landed from view it is virtually impossible for anyone down the fairway to tell with certainty whether it crossed the line of the penalty area near where he dropped. 

 

Didn't really matter, he took a double.

Score is irrelevant to the outcome.  It could have been a disqualification.

[Hawkeye77]

7 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Score is irrelevant to the outcome.  It could have been a disqualification.

But there was a ruling and drop under guidance of the rules official - where does the disqualification come in, wouldn't it simply by an after the fact wrong ruling if something was discovered that proved it wrong?