Question Regarding Single v Par Format And Handicap Qualifying

[Denny100]

Hello Everyone

 

Have a question regarding the single v par format, and whether or not it counts towards your handicap.

 

In single v par, if a player has a nett bogey, he loses the hole to par. Seems straightforward.

 

However, for handicapping purposes, handicap governing bodies count everything up to a nett double bogey in the calculation.

 

So you have a player who gets a shot on a par 4, he makes 10, for handicapping purposes he actually made 7, nett 6.

 

This is where im slightly confused with regards to single v par for handicap qualifying.

 

A player could have a putt on a par 4 he gets a shot on, lets say a putt for 5 nett 4, he misses. He loses the hole to par.

 

However, his NEXT putt for 6 would count towards his handicap......so presumably he cant just pick his ball up when the hole is lost because although the hole is already lost, his NEXT putt STILL counts?

 

Can you clarify this please? thank you

[nsxguy]

37 minutes ago, Denny100 said:

Hello Everyone

 

Have a question regarding the single v par format, and whether or not it counts towards your handicap.

 

In single v par, if a player has a nett bogey, he loses the hole to par. Seems straightforward.

 

However, for handicapping purposes, handicap governing bodies count everything up to a nett double bogey in the calculation.

 

So you have a player who gets a shot on a par 4, he makes 10, for handicapping purposes he actually made 7, nett 6.

 

This is where im slightly confused with regards to single v par for handicap qualifying.

 

A player could have a putt on a par 4 he gets a shot on, lets say a putt for 5 nett 4, he misses. He loses the hole to par.

 

However, his NEXT putt for 6 would count towards his handicap......so presumably he cant just pick his ball up when the hole is lost because although the hole is already lost, his NEXT putt STILL counts?

 

Can you clarify this please? thank you

 

Not sure what single vs par is but it sounds like it's irrelevant for handicapping purposes.

 

If a player doesn't finish a hole he records the score he'd most likely have made according to this table.

 

 

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Denny100 said:

Hello Everyone

 

Have a question regarding the single v par format, and whether or not it counts towards your handicap.

 

In single v par, if a player has a nett bogey, he loses the hole to par. Seems straightforward.

 

However, for handicapping purposes, handicap governing bodies count everything up to a nett double bogey in the calculation.

 

So you have a player who gets a shot on a par 4, he makes 10, for handicapping purposes he actually made 7, nett 6.

 

This is where im slightly confused with regards to single v par for handicap qualifying.

 

A player could have a putt on a par 4 he gets a shot on, lets say a putt for 5 nett 4, he misses. He loses the hole to par.

 

However, his NEXT putt for 6 would count towards his handicap......so presumably he cant just pick his ball up when the hole is lost because although the hole is already lost, his NEXT putt STILL counts?

 

Can you clarify this please? thank you

Most likely score?

[Denny100]

Just now, rogolf said:

Most likely score?

 

Im not sure really.

 

A guy might absolutely hammer his putt at the hole for nett bogey because the one back doesnt "matter" unlike if he was playing in stableford?

[North Butte]

3 hours ago, Denny100 said:

Hello Everyone

 

Have a question regarding the single v par format, and whether or not it counts towards your handicap.

 

In single v par, if a player has a nett bogey, he loses the hole to par. Seems straightforward.

 

However, for handicapping purposes, handicap governing bodies count everything up to a nett double bogey in the calculation.

 

So you have a player who gets a shot on a par 4, he makes 10, for handicapping purposes he actually made 7, nett 6.

 

This is where im slightly confused with regards to single v par for handicap qualifying.

 

A player could have a putt on a par 4 he gets a shot on, lets say a putt for 5 nett 4, he misses. He loses the hole to par.

 

However, his NEXT putt for 6 would count towards his handicap......so presumably he cant just pick his ball up when the hole is lost because although the hole is already lost, his NEXT putt STILL counts?

 

Can you clarify this please? thank you

Does the "single" in "single v par" mean he is playing alone? If so the round does not count for handicapping at all.

[Augster]

Most likely score is posted if the player picks up, up to NDB. 
 

Don’t make this more complicated than it has to be. 

[Newby]

12 hours ago, Denny100 said:

Hello Everyone

 

Have a question regarding the single v par format,

 

Can you clarify what single v par is please? thank you

Edited April 15 by Newby

[Halebopp]

It sounds like Par/Bogey.

 

Assuming that's what we're talking about, it can lead to issues with players being too aggressive to secure a point or to avoid losing a point. It can result in them possibly landing with adjusted gross scores worse than those if they had been playing a format in which all strokes up to net double bogey are meaningful. And, if you don't finish a hole, the score for the hole is the net double bogey maximum.

 

In my opinion the terms of the competition should require players to play up to net double bogey even if they've already lost the hole.

 

[Denny100]

36 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

It sounds like Par/Bogey.

 

Assuming that's what we're talking about, it can lead to issues with players being too aggressive to secure a point or to avoid losing a point. It can result in them possibly landing with adjusted gross scores worse than those if they had been playing a format in which all strokes up to net double bogey are meaningful. And, if you don't finish a hole, the score for the hole is the net double bogey maximum.

 

In my opinion the terms of the competition should require players to play up to net double bogey even if they've already lost the hole.

 

 

This is exactly it, youve captured the situation exactly.

 

So even when a hole is "lost", im a little unclear as to what the player does for this exact reason, and im not sure the most likely score part is correct in this instance?

[North Butte]

2 hours ago, Halebopp said:

In my opinion the terms of the competition should require players to play up to net double bogey even if they've already lost the hole.

 

I disagree on principle with the idea that how a competition is played should, in any way, be determined by the quirks of the handicap system. The handicap system is there to serve the game, not the other way around.

[Halebopp]

3 hours ago, Denny100 said:

 

This is exactly it, youve captured the situation exactly.

 

So even when a hole is "lost", im a little unclear as to what the player does for this exact reason, and im not sure the most likely score part is correct in this instance?

 

The "most likely score" is an USGA concept only used in the USA and Mexico (?) so it wouldn't be applicable to begin with. But, if playing Par/Bogey is starting to cause issues with people returning cards with an alarming number of no scores for holes, something would need to be done about it. Such scores simply wouldn't be illustrative of the actual abilities of the participants.

 

Naturally the other option is to make the tournament scores non-qualifying.

[nsxguy]

13 hours ago, Denny100 said:

 

This is exactly it, youve captured the situation exactly.

 

So even when a hole is "lost", im a little unclear as to what the player does for this exact reason, and im not sure the most likely score part is correct in this instance?

 

I always forget about the rest of the world. Sorry.

 

R&A Rules of Handicapping

 

A player is expected to:

• • Act with integrity by following the Rules of Handicapping and to refrain from using, or circumventing, the Rules of Handicapping for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage,
  •  
  • Submit acceptable scores to provide reasonable evidence of their demonstrated ability,
  •  
  • Attempt to make the best score possible at each hole

The last bullet point is, I guess, (somewhat) subject to interpretation, but it basically means "Don't try to manipulate your handicap".

 

This covers the guy who's 3 feet away for par, but, since his opponent has already made birdie, slams the putt 5 feet past the hole and misses the comebacker for a double bogey.

 

Or when a guy has a 1 foot putt and one-hands it and misses.

 

In the late 80's, when I first started playing organized golf, these strokes were taken off a player's gross score for handicap purposes. I have no idea if this was an actual handicapping rule at the time.

 

We've all had a putt "go off" in our hands from time to time but when this happens regularly/often/whenever a hole is already lost, it becomes an issue for the Handicap Committee.

 

Apparently the R&A is "trialling" "Most likely score"  👍

 

 

[Halebopp]

8 hours ago, nsxguy said:

Apparently the R&A is "trialling" "Most likely score"  👍

 

FYI, the R&A isn't a handicap administrator. While they are involved with the work on WHS, they don't have a say in how the national associations apply the WHS.

[Newby]

9 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

Apparently the R&A is "trialling" "Most likely score"  👍

 

 

Are you sure that this is not related to the recent change for 'not playing' a hole?

 

[Halebopp]

41 minutes ago, Newby said:

Are you sure that this is not related to the recent change for 'not playing' a hole?

 

 

As far as I can read, it was to do with Ireland testing the possibility of returning match-play scores when the WHS was introduced. I remember hearing they would've scrapped the idea but I could just as well be mistaken about that.

I did find out that GB&I started to include the Course Rating in their Course Handicap calculation on April 1.

[nsxguy]

5 hours ago, Newby said:

Are you sure that this is not related to the recent change for 'not playing' a hole?

 

 

No.

 

I just googled it and found that R&A document mentioning "trialling" most likely score so I posted the link.

[Halebopp]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

No.

 

I just googled it and found that R&A document mentioning "trialling" most likely score so I posted the link.

 

That's not an R&A document. It's from CONGU, their logo appears twice on the front page.

[nsxguy]

23 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

That's not an R&A document. It's from CONGU, their logo appears twice on the front page.

 

OK, my bad.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 16 by nsxguy

[Newby]

8 hours ago, Halebopp said:

 

As far as I can read, it was to do with Ireland testing the possibility of returning match-play scores when the WHS was introduced. I remember hearing they would've scrapped the idea but I could just as well be mistaken about that.
 

You are correct.

nsxguy was referring to Version 1.4 where there was a reference to Ireland trialling the concept.

It has been removed from Version 1.7 where it ays

"Remove reference to Golf Ireland in Most Likely Score section."

 

The section (3.3/1) now says:

"Whilst not in general use in GB&I, players should be aware of this provision should they play overseas. The full details are taken from Interpretation 3.3/1 (included in the Rules for jurisdictions that use MLS). .............................................."

 

Edited April 16 by Newby

[SNIPERBBB]

On 4/15/2024 at 5:21 AM, Denny100 said:

 

This is exactly it, youve captured the situation exactly.

 

So even when a hole is "lost", im a little unclear as to what the player does for this exact reason, and im not sure the most likely score part is correct in this instance?

Remember in any competition, you record your actual scores for the holes played. Your score for handicap purposes isn't what you turn in till you get to the handicap computer or card turned into the handicap committee