Rory not returning to Policy Board

[gvogel]

4 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

🤣

 

Its a slog but these deals take time

 

Not surprised PIF went nuclear ballistic 😡 when the terms of the original agreement were so radically changed and SSG came in

 

But LIV has gone nowhere so not suprised to see everyone back at the table

And the whole agreement, if there is one, could collapse in Congress.

[munichop]

Time is on LIV's side.  They have infinite resources and will continue to cherry pick players young and established who see the money first.  As long as majors contiune offering invites to LIV players what have they lost?  Meanwhile the private equity boys want a return on their investment.  It is the economic equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight.  And if Congress has to bless any merger all the politicians will demand their cut.

As more and more top college players, especially non U.S. players, get offered guaranteed money and get to play team golf after college you will see a feeder system to LIV.  Phil wrote the playbook getting former Sun Devils to jump.  What if some of the top college programs start to become LIV breeders.  I am sure some top college coaches would love some extra money to point their players that way.  

As more and more future sports revolve around betting the PGA tours product will no longer have the default attention of fans, especially outside the U.S. 

[gato_plomo]

9 hours ago, AlanWatts said:

100%. Woods is the best guy to deal with the Saudis. McIlroy is too naive and talks too much. He has a long history of poor decision making on and off the course. 

Agree completely. I think tigers track record on and off the course shows that he does not make mistakes 

[bladehunter]

3 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Tiger?

 

He old school

 

“If I ruled golf? We’d be playing persimmon and balata”

 

Tiger Woods quoted by Jaime Diaz, Golf Digest

Wish it were so.  😎

[bladehunter]

25 minutes ago, munichop said:

Time is on LIV's side.  They have infinite resources and will continue to cherry pick players young and established who see the money first.  As long as majors contiune offering invites to LIV players what have they lost?  Meanwhile the private equity boys want a return on their investment.  It is the economic equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight.  And if Congress has to bless any merger all the politicians will demand their cut.

As more and more top college players, especially non U.S. players, get offered guaranteed money and get to play team golf after college you will see a feeder system to LIV.  Phil wrote the playbook getting former Sun Devils to jump.  What if some of the top college programs start to become LIV breeders.  I am sure some top college coaches would love some extra money to point their players that way.  

As more and more future sports revolve around betting the PGA tours product will no longer have the default attention of fans, especially outside the U.S. 

Let’s hope not.  Most golf fans do not want to watch LIV format and gimmicks.  If they did. It would be popular now.  

[bcjim]

32 minutes ago, munichop said:

Time is on LIV's side.  They have infinite resources and will continue to cherry pick players young and established who see the money first.  As long as majors contiune offering invites to LIV players what have they lost?  Meanwhile the private equity boys want a return on their investment.  It is the economic equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight.  And if Congress has to bless any merger all the politicians will demand their cut.

As more and more top college players, especially non U.S. players, get offered guaranteed money and get to play team golf after college you will see a feeder system to LIV.  Phil wrote the playbook getting former Sun Devils to jump.  What if some of the top college programs start to become LIV breeders.  I am sure some top college coaches would love some extra money to point their players that way.  

As more and more future sports revolve around betting the PGA tours product will no longer have the default attention of fans, especially outside the U.S. 

Liv is not going to continue flushing money down a toilet. Signing new big names won't be as easy when the old players need a new contract too. Liv will be propped up until its not.  Despite what various Liv promoters say. 

 

[Dutch1008]

17 hours ago, golfortennis said:

lol.  How many QBs actually could?  And could he nail the coffin corner if needed?  Directional kicking?  And oh btw is the coach going risk a roughing the kicker against his QB?  I know I would go full bore at the QB playing punter...

 

There are more good punters than there are real good QBs.  No one is arguing that a punter should be paid the same.  But if a punter isn't doing his job, it makes the QB's job a lot tougher, and this doesn't even factor in the defense.  And a punter has to do his job when the QB doesn't do his....  

 

Elway used to pooch punt from shotgun all the time. So did Randall Cunningham. Teams are going for it on 4th down more than ever. The value of a punter has never been lower. 

 

But I get your point. The NFL shouldn't convert to a 7 on 7 league just because those skills are most valued. I have no interest in Phil or Greg's 30 man super league. But it does beg the question, what is the appropriate number? 

 

To go back to the NFL, imagine the owners decided they could make a lot more money w/ a 30 game season. CBS/NBC/Fox/ESPN/Amazon/Apple all sign up to broadcast this expanded inventory. Only problem is, Patrick Mahomes rallies the top players to only play 17 games plus playoffs. They don't budge. Jerry Jones and others are forced to scrap the talent from the CFL and bring in the washouts from the UFL. They play the games with these tier 2 and tier 3 players and ask the consumer to take it seriously. To care about those games just as much. That is literally what the PGAT does. 

 

They host a bunch of tournaments with the B team and ask sponsors, broadcasters, and fans to play along with the diminished product. Stars matters. The Zurich ratings were up because Rory was there and in contention. The Wells Fargo will get better ratings than the CJ because more top guys that people want to watch are playing. 

 

I don't think LIV is the way to go, neither is 60 man, no cut, limited events. But lets not act like the PGAT is some sacred unicorn that can't be improved.  

[Danielson]

4 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

Elway used to pooch punt from shotgun all the time. So did Randall Cunningham. Teams are going for it on 4th down more than ever. The value of a punter has never been lower. 

 

But I get your point. The NFL shouldn't convert to a 7 on 7 league just because those skills are most valued. I have no interest in Phil or Greg's 30 man super league. But it does beg the question, what is the appropriate number? 

 

To go back to the NFL, imagine the owners decided they could make a lot more money w/ a 30 game season. CBS/NBC/Fox/ESPN/Amazon/Apple all sign up to broadcast this expanded inventory. Only problem is, Patrick Mahomes rallies the top players to only play 17 games plus playoffs. They don't budge. Jerry Jones and others are forced to scrap the talent from the CFL and bring in the washouts from the UFL. They play the games with these tier 2 and tier 3 players and ask the consumer to take it seriously. To care about those games just as much. That is literally what the PGAT does. 

 

They host a bunch of tournaments with the B team and ask sponsors, broadcasters, and fans to play along with the diminished product. Stars matters. The Zurich ratings were up because Rory was there and in contention. The Wells Fargo will get better ratings than the CJ because more top guys that people want to watch are playing. 

 

I don't think LIV is the way to go, neither is 60 man, no cut, limited events. But lets not act like the PGAT is some sacred unicorn that can't be improved.  

 

I think you really hit the nail on the head at the end there. Obviously nobody has true stats for this, but from what I gather from in person conversations and what we see online most people don't really want LIV or that format. They just want a mildly improved version of what we already had, with less commercials. Which makes it a bit funny that the PGA Tour has gone out of their way to change things drastically and has nuked what little interest existed for half their events by doing it.

[Rapidcat]

He's shown himself not viable in the policy board role.

 

Loose lips sink ships plus he has an opinion about everything that often changes as circumstances do.

 

He resigns and wants to come back when it suits him.

 

He's a disaster in this type of role.

 

Plus he's not an American and has stated that he's moving to London in the future, he's committed to the PGAT only while it suits him.

 

He's about the worst person to have on this board.

 

Rory, just play golf.

[Maine Golfer]

Look im a Rory fan and always defending him as form the working class. He had his chance on the board and yes politics happen on boards and they don't want him back. He can't magically will himself around that, so move on imo. 

 

Also i'm very much for tell Liv no and go it alone, so I hope that happens. Whatever happens, happens but I reject they MUST MERGE and they must have a world tour (which will lose $$).

 

 

[subrew]

If I was in the position of puppet master, pulling the strings behind the curtain, I would have Rory show up at the next LIV event to play a practice round with Brooks.  He doesn't even have to say anything to anyone.  Just show up and play a Tuesday practice round with Brooks, have a few photos leak, have him jokingly putting on a Smash GC hat.  

 

Golf media and forums such as this would implode.  

[Dutch1008]

7 minutes ago, subrew said:

If I was in the position of puppet master, pulling the strings behind the curtain, I would have Rory show up at the next LIV event to play a practice round with Brooks.  He doesn't even have to say anything to anyone.  Just show up and play a Tuesday practice round with Brooks, have a few photos leak, have him jokingly putting on a Smash GC hat.  

 

Golf media and forums such as this would implode.  

 

He doesn't even need to go that far. Just throw on a Cleeks hat while walking to the clubhouse in Charlotte before a round this week. The world would melt. 

 

If I didn't despise Greg and Phil so much these days, I'd want Rory to do it just for the LOLZ. 

[munichop]

3 hours ago, bcjim said:

Liv is not going to continue flushing money down a toilet. Signing new big names won't be as easy when the old players need a new contract too. Liv will be propped up until its not.  Despite what various Liv promoters say. 

 

I think it is hard  for all of us who grew up in a capitalist society to wrap our heads around the idea that the Saudi's have an infinite supply of money and the rules of profit oriented decisions do not apply to them.  They will never require a financial return on the LIV investment.  They may lose interest down the road and change course but it won't be because of the need to profit financially from this endeavor.   
LIV is a little bit like Top Golf in that somebody is hitting golf balls with golf clubs and a certain audience likes it but there are many differences that long time golf fans and players do not identify with.  While it may not appeal to traditional fans I expect younger generations, especially the ones who bet, can find plenty of incentives to embrace this product.  It is early days and LIV is way more open to changing things to see what sticks than the PGA tour. 

Yeasrs ago the AFL, ABA, WHA all created new leagues that eventually merged with the older more established ones.  I am not saying that is the end game but if you compare who can hold out longer with separate models it is no contest. 

[bscinstnct]

3 minutes ago, munichop said:

I think it is hard  for all of us who grew up in a capitalist society to wrap our heads around the idea that the Saudi's have an infinite supply of money and the rules of profit oriented decisions do not apply to them.  They will never require a financial return on the LIV investment.  They may lose interest down the road and change course but it won't be because of the need to profit financially from this endeavor.   
LIV is a little bit like Top Golf in that somebody is hitting golf balls with golf clubs and a certain audience likes it but there are many differences that long time golf fans and players do not identify with.  While it may not appeal to traditional fans I expect younger generations, especially the ones who bet, can find plenty of incentives to embrace this product.  It is early days and LIV is way more open to changing things to see what sticks than the PGA tour. 

Yeasrs ago the AFL, ABA, WHA all created new leagues that eventually merged with the older more established ones.  I am not saying that is the end game but if you compare who can hold out longer with separate models it is no contest. 

 

Everyone knows they don’t need to make money
 

They showed exactly what they want when they signed the original framework agreement

 

They want LIV to be a legit tour, they want a share of the pga tour, and they want Aramco events with the best of both tours playing. 
 

This is exactly what the result will be with the exception of SSG being a partner as well, 

Edited May 9 by bscinstnct

[munichop]

1 minute ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Everyone knows they don’t need to make money
 

they show exactly what they want when they signed the original framework agreement

 

They want LIV to be a legit tour, they want a share of the pga tour, and they want Aramco events with the best of both tours playing. 
 

This is exactly what the result will be with the exception of SSG being a partner as well, 

If that is the case and Rory supports that end sooner than later it is not a good sign that he was not placed back on the board.  If Tiger and his friends dig in they will just spend others money until the equity group pulls the plug. 

[bscinstnct]

7 minutes ago, munichop said:

If that is the case and Rory supports that end sooner than later it is not a good sign that he was not placed back on the board.  If Tiger and his friends dig in they will just spend others money until the equity group pulls the plug. 

 

Not sure what you mean

 

TW and SSG will give SA what they want…

 

for a $2 Billion investment in pga tour enterprises and huge Aramco sponsorship money for the Aramco events where top players from both tours play 

 

The $2 billion legitimatizes the huge valuation the SSG partners assigned to the value of pga tour enterprises 

 

 

Edited May 9 by bscinstnct

[subrew]

F1 has been mentioned multiple times in these threads, with regard to how much money PIF/Saudi is willing to spend, to reach its long-term goals.  What started as a couple race event sponsorship, has turned into a series wide 10yr sponsorship partnership with Liberty (the owners of Formula 1), owning 20% of a team (and Aston Martin the car company) and building a second track.  Medium-term goals include providing space at Neom for F1 teams to relocate out of the UK altogether, and building a country-wide Karting program that might yield a Saudi born F1 driver in 15 to 20 years.

 

That is a lot of spending, with strategies going out to 2040 for reaching some goals.  

 

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2024-05-02/f1-in-saudi

 

 

Some of these are cheesy soundbites, but they have even created F1 themed STEM curriculum at school-level.  This is long-term stuff.

 

 

“I wanted something to be obsessed about one summer, and for me it was F1,” Ibaa said.

She insisted she didn’t get into it because of “Drive to Survive.” “Too much drama,” she said dismissively.

Both of the teens were enrolled in “F1 in Schools,” an Aramco-sponsored program that has students establishing and managing their own racing team as part of STEM and other lessons. Ibaa had taken on the role of head engineer for her team, while Sireen was doing marketing.

“Ours is called Fennec,” she said. “It’s a desert fox that lives in Saudi Arabia.”

 

 

[Dutch1008]

1 hour ago, bscinstnct said:

Not sure what you mean

 

TW and SSG will give SA what they want…

 

for a $2 Billion investment in pga tour enterprises and huge Aramco sponsorship money for the Aramco events where top players from both tours play 

 

The $2 billion legitimatizes the huge valuation the SSG partners assigned to the value of pga tour enterprises 

 

I think you're directionally right although I don't think the PIF is as precious about LIV as you do. Further, I don't think SSG/PGAT move forward without an agreement that LIV can't poach new players and that any capital needed to support LIV comes from the PIF directly. At that point, what exactly has merged? Does LIV get new shares in the merged entity for subsidizing operating losses at LIV? Is LIV just a vestigial tail that exists outside the merged entity? Who owns the Aramco Series of events? 

 

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think you are proposing the following...

1. PIF invests in PGAT Enterprises as a Minority Partner

2. PGAT Enterprises and LIV sign a joint venture on an Aramco Series of events featuring both tours

3. PIF remains sole owner of LIV 

 

I think that could make some sense but only if PGAT Enterprises can lock in some non-circumvention / non-solicitation / non-compete language. No stealing our players, no stealing our venues, no stealing our partners, no broadcasting during our signature events, etc. Not sure they can make that work. 

Edited May 9 by Dutch1008

[Dutch1008]

50 minutes ago, subrew said:

Medium-term goals include providing space at Neom for F1 teams to relocate out of the UK altogether

 

Are a bunch of engineers and executives that are comfortable and happy in the UK, Italy, Austria, Germany, Monaco really going to uproot to SA? Perhaps the Kingdom is on its way to softening its social stances and welcoming a more diverse culture, but this ain't Dubai were talking about. 

[munichop]

My impression is that Rory wanted a merger sooner than later.   It appears some think Tiger and the equity want some kind of partitioning with some shared events and no compete clauses.  How can that be when Congress has to bless this?  Again it seems like any type of long term solution is months if not years away.  In the mean time the equity partners want a return on their investment.  PIF wants that too but I expect but it isn't a requirement that forces short term reactions.  After all they don't have a quarterly statement to worry about.  They can pivot ans keep cherry picking players who decide the grass is greener at LIV.  The more PGA players get to watch LIV players getting into majors the more likely a player will take the money.

[bscinstnct]

36 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

I think you're directionally right although I don't think the PIF is as precious about LIV as you do. Further, I don't think SSG/PGAT move forward without an agreement that LIV can't poach new players and that any capital needed to support LIV comes from the PIF directly. At that point, what exactly has merged? Does LIV get new shares in the merged entity for subsidizing operating losses at LIV? Is LIV just a vestigial tail that exists outside the merged entity? Who owns the Aramco Series of events? 

 

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think you are proposing the following...

1. PIF invests in PGAT Enterprises as a Minority Partner

2. PGAT Enterprises and LIV sign a joint venture on an Aramco Series of events featuring both tours

3. PIF remains sole owner of LIV 

 

I think that could make some sense but only if PGAT Enterprises can lock in some non-circumvention / non-solicitation / non-compete language. No stealing our players, no stealing our venues, no stealing our partners, no broadcasting during our signature events, etc. Not sure they can make that work. 

 

Ya, exactly right with 1, 2, 3, and an agreement, of course, on recruiting practices and schedules/geography. 

 

And I’d think PIF funds the LIV deficits in addition to investing billions into the pga tour and funds the Aramco events. 
 

Plus, they would do a Ryder Cup event, that could be a big money maker. 
 

Once they establish fair recruiting practices, they can open things up for pga tour players to go to liv without penalty, and liv guys to come back to the tour if they want. 

[SeaIsland]

What does the PGA Commissioner do? Here's the answer: He presides over a tax-exempt, non-profit, and pays himself nearly $20 million a year. When interviewed, he talks about other charities. His qualifications seem limited to having great hair and white teeth, which unfortunately, make him more qualified to be a figure head than most of the players.

 

Seriously folks, this situation is more screwed up than making one of your fellow club members responsible for your $10M golf course renovation. It's inexplicable, but it happens all the time.

 

The PGA Tour, as we know it, is dead. When the TV money consolidates around a contract that guarantees the best players in the world are together again and competing each week, then and only then will this thing be done. The old farts in Butler's cabin will not interfere, which is why they're the old guys in Butler's Cabin.

Edited May 10 by SeaIsland

[Chopper Dave]

8 hours ago, Rapidcat said:

 

Plus he's not an American and has stated that he's moving to London

[kmbean]

9 hours ago, subrew said:

If I was in the position of puppet master, pulling the strings behind the curtain, I would have Rory show up at the next LIV event to play a practice round with Brooks.  He doesn't even have to say anything to anyone.  Just show up and play a Tuesday practice round with Brooks, have a few photos leak, have him jokingly putting on a Smash GC hat.  

 

Golf media and forums such as this would implode.  

There were a few PGAT players wearing LIV shirts and hats at the Ryder Cup after party.  This is a big joke to all of them as they watch their bank accounts swell to beyond imagination.

Edited May 10 by kmbean

[notsohard]

6 hours ago, kmbean said:

There were a few PGAT players wearing LIV shirts and hats at the Ryder Cup after party.  This is a big joke to all of them as they watch their bank accounts swell to beyond imagination.

Spieth, Cantlay and Thomas laughed so hard when SSG threw money at them, that they have to see chiropractors regularly now.

[ahenderX]

17 hours ago, gato_plomo said:

Agree completely. I think tigers track record on and off the course shows that he does not make mistakes 

I would not classify Tiger’s poor decisions as mistakes. 

[EagleAteBirdie]

I wonder how far the PGAT and key members have to push Rory for him to call it a day.  That said, I think he has successfully alienated himself from both tours, so his options are probably limited.

 

 

[bscinstnct]

11 hours ago, SeaIsland said:

What does the PGA Commissioner do? Here's the answer: He presides over a tax-exempt, non-profit, and pays himself nearly $20 million a year. When interviewed, he talks about other charities. His qualifications seem limited to having great hair and white teeth, which unfortunately, make him more qualified to be a figure head than most of the players.

 

Seriously folks, this situation is more screwed up than making one of your fellow club members responsible for your $10M golf course renovation. It's inexplicable, but it happens all the time.

 

The PGA Tour, as we know it, is dead. When the TV money consolidates around a contract that guarantees the best players in the world are together again and competing each week, then and only then will this thing be done. The old farts in Butler's cabin will not interfere, which is why they're the old guys in Butler's Cabin.

 

Yes, it’s logical that this is where things are headed. “The best” players and “TV money” gravitating towards each other. 
 

But it remains to be seen if fans will gravitate in turn and watch.

 

Say what we will about how inept Jay is and bad the model is.

 

But it developed from the ground up. It (and Jay) were able to leverage its price success into a 9-year, $6.5 billion tv contract. 
 

The “new model” of big guaranteed money is a total “top down” concept.

 

There are examples, outside of majors, of concentrated fields of top players and big money being big draws for golf fans. The Players for example. 
 

But there are as many example of fans not being as interested in such events at all. The FedEx cup and WGCs. 
 

And these are the events with smaller fields and guaranteed money.

 

I will laugh if they move forward with this model and it fails miserably because for whatever reason, the “old pga tour” model was the ones fans appreciated most. 

Edited May 10 by bscinstnct

[SeaIsland]

41 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Yes, it’s logical that this is where things are headed. “The best” players and “TV money” gravitating towards each other. 
 

But it remains to be seen if fans will gravitate in turn and watch.

 

Say what we will about how inept Jay is and bad the model is.

 

But it developed from the ground up. It (and Jay) were able to leverage its price success into a 9-year, $6.5 billion tv contract. 
 

The “new model” of big guaranteed money is a total “top down” concept.

 

There are examples, outside of majors, of concentrated fields of top players and big money being big draws for golf fans. The Players for example. 
 

But there are as many example of fans not being as interested in such events at all. The FedEx cup and WGCs. 
 

And these are the events with smaller fields and guaranteed money.

 

I will laugh if they move forward with this model and it fails miserably because for whatever reason, the “old pga tour” model was the ones fans appreciated most. 

As you may be able to tell 🙂 , I am not a fan of Jay, regardless of how nice of a guy he is supposed to be. On a personal level, people vouch for him big time (a nice compliment to him), but professionally? We're talking gross incompetence here. He screwed up the proverbial one car funeral. At $20M a year, you would have thought someone in his circle was paying attention. There was no way to miss it.

 

The arrogance is stunning. It surpasses the tour's overplayed promotion of itself as a wonderful charity. Once again, anyone paying even the slightest attention knows the tour may be the worst, high profile charity out there (you need to contribute 15% to keep your NPO status and the PGA Tour hovers at 16%). Even with a friendly media providing cover on this point, that shoe was soon to drop as well. 

 

Did the players leave for the money? Of course they did. Did the incompetence of PGA Tour leadership play into their decisions? It must have. Poor leadership does not inspire loyalty.

 

I just want to watch Scottie keep winning, see if JT rebounds, wonder about Aberg becoming the next star, root for Xander, and yes, see Rahm, DJ and the other great players across the globe challenge them. Is that too much?

Edited May 10 by SeaIsland

[bscinstnct]

4 minutes ago, SeaIsland said:

As you may be able to tell 🙂 , I am not a fan of Jay, regardless of how nice of a guy he is supposed to be. On a personal level, people vouch for him big time (a nice compliment to him), but professionally? We're talking gross incompetence here. He screwed up the proverbial one car funeral. At $20M a year, you would have thought someone in his circle was paying attention. There was no way to miss it.

 

The arrogance is stunning. It surpasses the tour's overplayed promotion of itself as a wonderful charity when once again, anyone paying attention knows it's among the worst (you need 15% to keep your NPO status and the PGA Tour hovers at 16%). Even with a friendly media providing cover, that shoe was soon to drop as well. 

 

Did the players leave for the money? Of course they did. Did the incompetence of PGA Tour leadership play into their decisions? It must have. Poor leadership does not inspire loyalty.

 

Appreciate you being forthcoming about your disdain for Jay and the tour

 

But nobody left the tour because of anything Jay did or any isssues they had with the tour. 
 

PIF offered them lifetime earnings guaranteed paid over 5-years. Just to sign. Then they get prize money. 
 

Take anybody who works for the greatest company in the world and is making 100K a year

 

If another company offers them a $2MM sign on bonus. Plus their current salary. 
 

They would all take it.