Whose career crash has been the most disappointing?

[Golferpaul]

26 minutes ago, Golf Scientist said:

 

As others have mentioned Day has seen improved play after a swing remodel as has Fowler to a smaller degree. I've always thought both Speith and Thomas were very overrated. As others mentioned Speith only got to where he was due to making some very lucky long putts, and at the time I suspected that wasn't going to last long term, and he'd drop off the map.

 

13 wins and 3 majors and he's overrated?

 

How do you explain that Spieth won three times including one major in 2017 while being ranked 48th in putting?  He was 2nd tee to green that year, so was he just hitting lots of lucky iron shots?  and lucky tee shots?   

 

Oh, BTW, he was ranked #4 tee to green in 2015 and #9 in putting.  So, his ball striking wasn't exactly chopped liver.

[Titleist99]

5 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

I also was fortunate to see both of them in their prime.  The fun thing about this debate is everybody can decide what yardstick they will use.  Tiger had the best single seasons, but Jack had the best career.  My yardstick for a career is majors.

"My yardstick for a career is majors."

 

The only reason I don't use Major Championships as a career yardstick is that Jack,  Tiger, and Brooks all say that the majors are the easiest to win.

 

Phil didn't start winning majors until after the age of 34.

 

I can give you a list of two time major winners that should give those majors back. (hyperbole)

Edited June 10 by Titleist99

[Ironman_32]

40 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

 

I don't know that Kaymer cared all that much. He enjoyed the trophies and the money when it came but never struck me as someone who was burning to be great. It's not really a fall when you just exit stage left with your cash & prizes. Maybe he's even on the Duval train: got to the top, saw "that's all there is", and didn't feel driven to go after it anymore. 

 

He & players like Donald simply had higher peaks than many do, but I don't see Kaymer's slide back down as disappointing as a fan of golf. I never got the feeling the game mattered all that much to him beyond offering a well above average living. 

I don't think it's caring so much as it is your peak is a very short time. I don't think Kaymer or any of these guys could be the #1 golfer in the world right now if they cared more, for a lot of golfers, it comes down to having a time frame when you get hot. Could last a round, an event, or a season. Point is, I think we're expecting more from Spieth or JT when really they already had their run. They might pick up another major, but I don't think JT is going to have another 5 win year like 2017. 

 

[jmcm87]

Cam Champ. 

[subrew]

Golfdigest posted this photo this morning.  First thing I thought of wasn't who is going to win the event, but how many will actually make the cut?

 

 

Edited June 10 by subrew

[PedronNiall]

1 hour ago, Ironman_32 said:

I don't think it's caring so much as it is your peak is a very short time. I don't think Kaymer or any of these guys could be the #1 golfer in the world right now if they cared more, for a lot of golfers, it comes down to having a time frame when you get hot. Could last a round, an event, or a season. Point is, I think we're expecting more from Spieth or JT when really they already had their run. They might pick up another major, but I don't think JT is going to have another 5 win year like 2017. 

 

 

Agreed, pretty much the norm to peak and then decline, some simply have longer and/or stronger peaks so they get more out of it one way or another.

 

Hard to argue that JT's body is going to handle rerouting the club better now than he could even a handful of years ago. Hard to argue that Spieth will manage more wins with less time due to marriage, kids, a foundation, sponsor obligations, and chronic issues with his body than he did when he was younger, healthier, and had less on his mind. Same for Rickie. Might not have an injury issue but he is married now and doesn't have Butch on tap to keep him sharp like he did during his peak in a younger body. 

 

Gotta strike while the iron is hot and most aren't going to prioritize golf over everything else for an extended period of time. I think they mostly got what they could out of what they had, though I think Spieth would do well to take time and heal up & JT would do well to adjust that steepness.

[Archimedes65]

32 minutes ago, subrew said:

Golfdigest posted this photo this morning.  First thing I thought of wasn't who is going to win the event, but how many will actually make the cut?

 

 

 

No idea, but I love those Titleist staff bags.

 

[dcfas]

On 6/8/2024 at 10:27 AM, mat562 said:

 O'Hair was a real mystery.

 

One minute he was playing practice rounds with Woods, flushing it while flashing a colgate smile and perfect hair and looking for all the world like he was a dead cert to be the next big thing, and then he was gone.  It was 15 years ago now - I had to look it up - but it was a real drop-off in form for whatever reason.

 

There are lots of players with great potential who faded away, we all know that, but O'Hair was definitely a man you'd have put money on having a few banner years and a handful of big wins before his heyday was over. Okay, not the sort of fall that Lyle and Duval suffered, where they went from being arguably the best player in the world at one point to a couple of years later being someone who couldn't hit a barn wall if they were standing inside it, but a mystery nonetheless.

Remember the Nike ads with Tiger’s head cover, Frank? They had it complaining about Duval hitting a car at night and setting off an alarm, I believe. First time I saw it I laughed my backside off.

[Nard_S]

4 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

But do you think Rory would be happy with 45 wins and 6 majors?

he might, kind of looks overly satisfied in general. The guy clearly works, he's not lazy, he has a better swing than 10 years ago so mystery is what's stopping him from tightening weakest aspects?  Like for me, i hate metals, not fun, so i hit lots of irons in practice and that's admittedly dumb. But come Sunday, i pay for it, Rory looks to be doing the same. Working the fun stuff and paying for it on Sunday. Tiger would have weakness, come back next tournament and you could tell he worked on it. I like Rory, but his boyish attitude is a bit annoying and maybe i'm just annoyed with mine as well, lol..

[tiderider]

On 6/8/2024 at 9:37 AM, Shilgy said:

DJ

 

And it started before LIV.  He has more missed cuts than top 10’s in majors in the last 3 1/2 years and in none of the top 10’s was he ever in contention.

 

Monumental drop off.

his move to liv was my biggest disappointment ... people think he never had to work at golf and was so gifted he could've been a pro at any sport (bewilders the mind), but his career really could've been a 30 wins/3 majors guy if he doesn't move to liv ... always liked his attitude and persona ... but he's filthy rich now, instead of just rich, so he's got that going for him ... 

[Neo1]

I voted Spieth, he won 3 majors so quickly and at such a young age people thought he was gonna challenge Jack's record...now he might never win another

[dalehead]

On 6/8/2024 at 1:41 AM, cdnglf said:

Martin Kaymer

Agree. He might not come quickly to mind for some folks because we didn’t see him slowly decline. He just disappeared overnight.

[Shilgy]

5 hours ago, Nard_S said:

Rory has 20-25 yard advantage off tee, 3/4 of his SG to field lies there. He has a 1 to 2 club advantage on GIR & proximity.He's throwing away a ton by not improving proximity & putting. Phil's great, but not all time at all.

Excuse me? Are you really saying Phil’s not one of the all time greats?  I’ve never been a big fan but you don’t consider Phil an all time great? C’mon man give him his due. 8th all time in wins and every single player (except Tiger)  with more majors won started his career 50 years ago or more. 🤯

Edited June 10 by Shilgy

[Dutch1008]

13 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Excuse me? Are you really saying Phil’s not one of the all time greats?  I’ve never been a big fan but you don’t consider Phil an all time great? C’mon man give him his due. 8th all time in wins and every single player with more majors won started his career 50 years ago or more. 🤯

 

Oldest major champion, 6 USO runners up, 3x NCAA champ, 1x US Am, had the misfortune of playing alongside Tiger. Whatever people think of Phil today, and my opinion of him is in the toilet, he is w/o a doubt one of the best to ever play. 

[Archimedes65]

4 hours ago, Golf Scientist said:

 

As others have mentioned Day has seen improved play after a swing remodel as has Fowler to a smaller degree. I've always thought both Speith and Thomas were very overrated. As others mentioned Speith only got to where he was due to making some very lucky long putts, and at the time I suspected that wasn't going to last long term, and he'd drop off the map.

 

Hmmmm, I recall some pretty amazing ball striking during Jordan’s run a few years back.  And to say his putts were lucky is pretty disengenious.  A lot of great players have made long putts to win tournaments, including Tiger and Jack.  And JT was an elite ball striker; still is actually.  I don’t think he’s ever been overrated, just I think most people expected more majors out of him by this point in his career.

[Archimedes65]

24 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Excuse me? Are you really saying Phil’s not one of the all time greats?  I’ve never been a big fan but you don’t consider Phil an all time great? C’mon man give him his due. 8th all time in wins and every single player with more majors won started his career 50 years ago or more. 🤯

 

I tend to agree with you, but I remember reading a good assessment/comparison of Phil relative to the some of the greats of the game written by Harig or someboday a few years back, and the conclusion was that, while Phil was a great player, he wasn’t in the Top 10 or even 15 all time.  Still, relative to anyone other than Tiger, Phil was at the top of his era.

[Dutch1008]

43 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

Hmmmm, I recall some pretty amazing ball striking during Jordan’s run a few years back.  And to say his putts were lucky is pretty disengenious.  A lot of great players have made long putts to win tournaments, including Tiger and Jack.  And JT was an elite ball striker; still is actually.  I don’t think he’s ever been overrated, just I think most people expected more majors out of him by this point in his career.

 

You're correct. I blame this thinking on people who only caught the highlights on ESPN/GC as well as the broadcasters that disproportionally show tee shots and putting over approach play. 

 

Yes, Jordan was a great putter. Yes, Jordan was a wizard around the greens. But that's not the end of the story. Jordan was longer than average off the tee, had better than tour level accuracy w/ his driver, and was an absolute assassin with his irons...

 

Jordan's approach play in 2017 (+1.15 SG) wasn't quite Scottie's territory (+1.66 SG) but is better than any season Colin Morikawa has ever had (2021 - +1.13) and he's universally considered an amazing ball striker. 

 

Edited June 10 by Dutch1008

[grm24]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

C’mon man give him his due. 8th all time in wins and every single player with more majors won started his career 50 years ago or more. 🤯

Tiger did what?

[Shilgy]

40 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

I tend to agree with you, but I remember reading a good assessment/comparison of Phil relative to the some of the greats of the game written by Harig or someboday a few years back, and the conclusion was that, while Phil was a great player, he wasn’t in the Top 10 or even 15 all time.  Still, relative to anyone other than Tiger, Phil was at the top of his era.

IMO, and apparently Harig disagrees, to have Phil’s numbers in this later era is wildly better than that of others in his top ten. To me that would be like saying George Milan was the best center ever. A general lack of competition makes the numbers compiled by the best of many years ago vastly inflated.

[Shilgy]

1 minute ago, grm24 said:

Tiger did what?

You’re right…I did mean to type except Tiger.😵‍💫 I’ll will fix that but the point still stands.

[Nard_S]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

Excuse me? Are you really saying Phil’s not one of the all time greats?  I’ve never been a big fan but you don’t consider Phil an all time great? C’mon man give him his due. 8th all time in wins and every single player with more majors won started his career 50 years ago or more. 🤯

not top 10 maybe 15th. he played 30 years on an expanded pga schedule, okay great, but he was ever #1, ever? faldo played a 1/3 less, won 6 majors too and without doubt #1 for several of years.. 

 

jack has 18, tiger 15, but jack played a lot more. tiger's win percentage was twice jack's for large percentage of career but everyone says jack best, lol.

 

phil has longevity, give him that, that built his stats & earnings but top 10 all time? please. 

[Shilgy]

4 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

not top 10 maybe 15th. he played 30 years on an expanded pga schedule, okay great, but he was ever #1, ever? faldo played a 1/3 less, won 6 majors too and without doubt #1 for several of years.. 

 

jack has 18, tiger 15, but jack played a lot more. tiger's win percentage was twice jack's for large percentage of career but everyone says jack best, lol.

 

phil has longevity, give him that, that built his stats & earnings but top 10 all time? please. 

Not everyone says Jack’s number one.  By your logic which of Hogan Nelson Snead are out?  Or did they share their era. 
 

I’m not just saying this to you because , frankly, I’m not going to go back in all of the Jack vs Tiger discussions but it’s rather humorous to me that Faldo’s time at #1 is a positive when in the other discussions one of the points made by some were that Tiger was fortunate to come onto the scene during “such a weak era” but now you flip that angle and claim Faldo is better than Phil because he reached #1 and Phil never topped Tiger.

 

I find it hilarious that I’m defending Phil because like @Dutch1008 posted above I’ve never been a Phil fan but I find it odd anyone would not have him in the top ten.

 

So in your opinion top 15 is not an all time great.

[Archimedes65]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

IMO, and apparently Harig disagrees, to have Phil’s numbers in this later era is wildly better than that of others in his top ten. To me that would be like saying George Milan was the best center ever. A general lack of competition makes the numbers compiled by the best of many years ago vastly inflated.

 

If you consider Mickelson an all time great, what about other players of that era like Els and Vijay.  Els has four majors, over 50 wins worldwide and he was runner up to Tiger more than Phil was.  Vijay, three majors, over 50 wins, and also runner up to Tiger more times than Phil.  Granted Phil’s stats are a little better than either of them, but not by a big margin.  I think Tiger and Jack are in their own class.  Then Hogan and Snead, maybe Bobby Jones, maybe Byron Nelson.  Then a big group of elite players like Mickelson and a host of others.  Great players, but not even in the conversation about the greatest to ever play.

[Nard_S]

31 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

but it’s rather humorous to me that Faldo’s time at #1 is a positive when in the other discussions one of the points made by some were that Tiger was fortunate to come onto the scene during “such a weak era” but now you flip that angle and claim Faldo is better than Phil because he reached #1 and Phil never topped Tiger.

Faldo had compatriots from Europe in Fab 5, Norman despite his failings was no slouch. Price? no slouch. Have not even mentioned PGA/US born, there were several too.  Faldo did not play against weak fields for much of career. 

 

mention jack vs tiger because selective stats can deceive. it's clean example. nolan ryan had 300 wins as a pitcher, no one stacks him up to koufax.

 

i like phil, but now he's now some benchmark of greatness? Whose the 15th best of _________ all time? Who really cares anyway? he's alright, fancies himself as a southpaw seve, but if i could watch 25 guys in their prime, he's probably not on my list.

[Shilgy]

6 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

If you consider Mickelson an all time great, what about other players of that era like Els and Vijay.  Els has four majors, over 50 wins worldwide and he was runner up to Tiger more than Phil was.  Vijay, three majors, over 50 wins, and also runner up to Tiger more times than Phil.  Granted Phil’s stats are a little better than either of them, but not by a big margin.  I think Tiger and Jack are in their own class.  Then Hogan and Snead, maybe Bobby Jones, maybe Byron Nelson.  Then a big group of elite players like Mickelson and a host of others.  Great players, but not even in the conversation about the greatest to ever play.

You’re correct we’re talking small margins.  But as you posted Phil’s numbers are better than Els or Vijay so why discuss   The question in my opinion is how do you compare the numbers?  Does a win in 1945 carry the same weight as a win today? 
 

The all time “top ten “ in many people’s eyes is unchanged-other than Tiger- for the last half century.  It just seems unlikely to me that ALL of the best players played that long ago.  And really would be an insult to all of the instructors around the world that have the advantage of improved technology and knowledge to create better players.

 

 

[sjones130]

A very negative thread. If pushed I’d have to say Smylie 

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, Nard_S said:

Faldo had compatriots from Europe in Fab 5, Norman despite his failings was no slouch. Price? no slouch. Have not even mentioned PGA/US born, there were several too.  Faldo did not play against weak fields for much of career. 

 

mention jack vs tiger because selective stats can deceive. it's clean example. nolan ryan had 300 wins as a pitcher, no one stacks him up to koufax.

 

i like phil, but now he's now some benchmark of greatness? Whose the 15th best of _________ all time? Who really cares anyway? he's alright, fancies himself as a southpaw seve, but if i could watch 25 guys in their prime, he's probably not on my list.

Sorry, you lost me there. Are we ranking their record or watchability factor?

[stinger_gc]

@Ferguson with his scheffler voodoo doll every night 

[cdnglf]

4 hours ago, Nard_S said:

not top 10 maybe 15th. he played 30 years on an expanded pga schedule, okay great, but he was ever #1, ever? faldo played a 1/3 less, won 6 majors too and without doubt #1 for several of years.. 

 

jack has 18, tiger 15, but jack played a lot more. tiger's win percentage was twice jack's for large percentage of career but everyone says jack best, lol.

 

phil has longevity, give him that, that built his stats & earnings but top 10 all time? please. 

I’m pretty sure the clinical definition of insanity is thinking Nick Faldo was better than Phil Mickelson.

[Golfnutgalen]

Phil is top 10 easy. Just look at how many high finishes he had in majors. Or his 45 wins in the Tiger era.